Forums - The Warrior Tales: Storylines of SF (Q & A thread) Show all 1084 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Fan Fiction Library (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=17) -- The Warrior Tales: Storylines of SF (Q & A thread) (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=40326) Posted by FistsofFury on 09:18:2001 06:48 PM: The Warrior Tales: Storylines of SF (Q & A thread) I made this thread to discuss the storyline of Street Fighter. If you want a bio, ask here. Questions? Here. So let's get started! I've got a question: Can someone explain the Kairi to me?? I wanna know his bio, I really don't play EX and he seems to reek of coolness -EDIT- Table of Contents Page 1: info on Kairi, Q, and Dark Hadou(Ansatsu-ken) Page 2: More info on Kairi, some on Akuma, Goutetsu,Sakura, the Shun-goku-satsu, Gill, Time-Line, whole bunch of quick facts Page 3: Ryu and Gouki relationship info, Rose info, Bison(Vega) info, Makato info, Guile and Charlie info Page 4: Talks about Rose, the Dolls, Ken, Birthdates, Twelve, Ryu, SF4 and prequel ideas Page 5: Talks about 3rd Strike cast, Timeline, Gill and his thong, more on Ken, Alpha(Zero) changes, Page 6: Talks about Ages (Such as the possibility of Ryu being 23 in SF1), More 3rd Strike cast disscussion Page 7: Talks about Sagat losing to Dan, more Doll info, Fei-Long info, Types of villians, Alpha 3 happenings, more about Gill, Vega(Balrog)'s full name Page 8: Talks about Ryu's last name, Chun-Li's last name, Birthdates/Heights/Blood types/LikesandDislikes/you get the picture, Page 9: Talks about more bios, Dan's realatives, bio debates, Page 10: more Dark hado info, Vega Ryu and Satsui no Hadou Page 11: Vega(Bison)/Ryu conflict, Shadowloo Stats, Bison(Vega)'s incompetance, more Doll info, Rival Schools/Project Justice, Vega(Bison)'s origins, SFRPG ideaas, Final Fight and how it fits into SF, LINK to Alpha FAQ Page 12: More Doll talk, Rose/Vega(Bison) connection, Vega(Bison)'s death, Shun and the SF storyline, Posted by Greenbeard the pirate on 09:18:2001 07:24 PM: Well, As far as I know Kairi turned up missing, I think 10 years before EX1. So when Hokuto (his sister) grew up she went looking for him. When she found him he had amnesia and didnt remember a thing. that is pretty much the story from the first game. Somewhere between EX1 and EX2, Gouki "possessed him". Thats why hes all crazy. Thats about as much as I know. Posted by Million on 09:18:2001 07:31 PM: I know it has been discussed before, but I'm curious about "Q" from SF3:3rd Strike. I recently bought the game, and the stories are vague at best. All I know is that he appears to be an adroid... And Gill too.... Posted by FistsofFury on 09:18:2001 07:35 PM: quote: Originally posted by Million I know it has been discussed before, but I'm curious about "Q" from SF3:3rd Strike. I recently bought the game, and the stories are vague at best. All I know is that he appears to be an adroid... And Gill too.... I think Q is a agent or something....I'm pretty sure he's an android. I think he works for the US government. Gill, is the destined leader of the secret society he's in. He was born with the ability to control the elements fire and ice. He plans to rule the Earth. That's pretty much it...... Posted by Clay on 09:18:2001 08:19 PM: FistsofFury: I'm so glad you started this thread! I was thinking of starting one myself, but I usually don't get to post every day so I hadn't gotten around to it. If you have come across any of my posts (I'm relatively new) then you know that I'm heavily engrossed in the SF Universe. I will probably post in this thread quite often (if that is okay with you) and will try to bring up some intresting topics and discuss the future of the SF (story) and where it could be headed. See ya' later. -Clay Posted by Siegfried on 09:18:2001 08:37 PM: I think Q is human; look closely at his portrait - you can see normal skin at his neck. He might just be a Darkman-type archetype scarred avenger... typically searching for revenge against, say, Urien. Posted by FistsofFury on 09:18:2001 09:43 PM: Another question: Does anybody think Ryu got rid of the Dark Hadou??? My take: After SFII, Ryu (proably with the help of a psychic, like Rose) was finally able to release the dark power within him. But if he did that, since his dark hadou is A PART of him....he would become weaker wouldn't he?? Posted by FistsofFury on 09:18:2001 09:45 PM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried I think Q is human; look closely at his portrait - you can see normal skin at his neck. He might just be a Darkman-type archetype scarred avenger... typically searching for revenge against, say, Urien. But when Q blocks something, it makes a metallic sound.....like Urien. So could Q be a machine?? Or just a man with lots of armor on?? Posted by FistsofFury on 09:19:2001 04:47 AM: BUMP Posted by Azrael-sama on 09:19:2001 05:33 AM: quote: Originally posted by FistsofFury Another question: Does anybody think Ryu got rid of the Dark Hadou??? My take: After SFII, Ryu (proably with the help of a psychic, like Rose) was finally able to release the dark power within him. But if he did that, since his dark hadou is A PART of him....he would become weaker wouldn't he?? Although sketchy, in the storyline of SFZ3, Ryu finally expels the evil intent through sheer willpower. It's not like he got rid of a part of him...more like a path he choose not to take. I had always sort of hoped that Capcom would pick up the Sakura character in post-SFII storylines. I think it would be interesting to see her as Ryu's student, and as an actual shoto, not just an imitation. She could have Ryu's solid moves with Ken's speed. Since Ryu expelled the dark hadou, Gouki could now pursue Sakura, sensing great potential within her (she is able to use hadoken without any formal training, I think that's pretty significant). -Az Posted by .Just*a*Kid. on 09:19:2001 06:29 AM: Heres a question. I was thinking about the Street Fighter games Timeline, in relation to the story and I was wondering this... In Alpha 3 (and 2 for that matter), Gouki and Ryu already know each other and are rivals (of sorts) and all of that,But in the original series Gouki doesn't show up till SSF2T and even then he's only a secret boss, so, story wise, he's barely involved. So, was he just lerking in the shadows during the SF2 tornement, or what? Storywise, he's a main character, then disappears, then re-appears. (I mean, obviously he was invented areound the time of SSF2T, but the SFA games are suppose to be prequels, and theres never any explanation where he went, and why he popped back up) I'm kind of thinking that SFA3 and SF2 kind of occur at the same time in a way, but the only inconsistancy there is the whole Guile/Charlie storyline. Also, what happens to Sakura? theres alot of loose ends. It kind of sucks in a way that SF3 is so different, and only 4 characters lasted. I hope if theres a SF4 it has more of the SF2 and SFA characters. Like I'd be cool to see Sakura and Sean as friends or somthing. theres endless possibilites. Oh, and they should bring back Haggar. I'm out. Posted by Clay on 09:19:2001 07:15 PM: All right, this thread rules! I have to go to work, but maybe I can get back on later tonight. I have some thoughts on Ryu, Sakura, Charlie, and the Alpha storyline, but it is way too much to get into now. Final thought: Q I think that Q is at least partly human. Two reasons: When nobody is moving, you can hear him/her breathing (think Darth Vader). The other reason is that you can see a skeleton when he/she is shocked by an electric based attack (Denjinn Hadou-ken, one of Necro's moves, Urien's metallic spheres). Not too much else is known about Q (he/she is wanted by the FBI in the 3s ending). -Clay Posted by .Just*a*Kid. on 09:20:2001 12:42 AM: bump Posted by FistsofFury on 09:20:2001 12:58 AM: quote: Originally posted by .Just*a*Kid. Heres a question. In Alpha 3 (and 2 for that matter), Gouki and Ryu already know each other and are rivals (of sorts) and all of that,But in the original series Gouki doesn't show up till SSF2T and even then he's only a secret boss, so, story wise, he's barely involved. So, was he just lerking in the shadows during the SF2 tornement, or what? Storywise, he's a main character, then disappears, then re-appears. (I mean, obviously he was invented areound the time of SSF2T, but the SFA games are suppose to be prequels, and theres never any explanation where he went, and why he popped back up) I'm kind of thinking that SFA3 and SF2 kind of occur at the same time in a way, but the only inconsistancy there is the whole Guile/Charlie storyline. Also, what happens to Sakura? theres alot of loose ends. It kind of sucks in a way that SF3 is so different, and only 4 characters lasted. I hope if theres a SF4 it has more of the SF2 and SFA characters. Like I'd be cool to see Sakura and Sean as friends or somthing. theres endless possibilites. Oh, and they should bring back Haggar. I'm out. The whole Ryu/Akuma thing makes NO SENSE. In Alpha, they know each other, in SF2, they don't know each other existed.. Sakura, Sakura's cool. In my fanfic, which takes place after SFII, but before SFIII. Sakura's in it, as Ryu's student. It's the only thing that makes the most sense for her. The thing with SFIII, was that Capcom was starting fresh...keep in mind that in the beta version of SFIII, Ryu and Ken weren't even in it! Alex was supposed to be the protagonist of SFIII. But Capcom changed it, because nobody played the game. Posted by Clay on 09:20:2001 06:59 AM: I wasn’t going to post anything tonight, but I’ll start now and continue tomorrow (later today). quote: Originally posted by FistsofFury Another question: Does anybody think Ryu got rid of the Dark Hadou??? My take: After SFII, Ryu (proably with the help of a psychic, like Rose) was finally able to release the dark power within him. But if he did that, since his dark hadou is A PART of him....he would become weaker wouldn't he?? FistsofFury: Azrael-sama’s answer is correct. Ryu doesn’t expel the “Evil Intent” (Dark Hadou); he simply chooses not to use it. I wanted to answer this one right away because it is a common misconception. The evil intent does not exist (CAP USA screwed up big time. They misinterpreted Killing Intent and substituted Evil Intent (there is a difference between killing and evil, and I’ll get to it soon) or Dark Hadou). First off, your question is totally wrong. Don’t worry, it isn’t your fault; the blame is placed on CAP USA. They butchered the storyline and then convinced people that Evil Ryu exists (Evil Ryu was created by CAP USA. Capcom of Japan liked the idea and used him as a hidden character. However, Capcom (if I write Capcom, assume that I’m talking about the Japanese company. I’ll specify USA if I’m talking about their American counterpart) has been adamant in not including Evil Ryu in the official storyline). So the evil intent does not exist and it isn’t a part of Ryu. Forget everything that CAP USA (they suck) has told you and I’ll start re-teaching you the SF universe. I’ll begin with an explanation of the Killing Intent. -Clay Note: I tend to get quite longwinded (you’ve probably figured that out). So if you want to about the true SF Universe, then some of my posts might seem like overkill. I don’t do it on purpose; it’s just that I’m very thorough. Posted by Clay on 09:20:2001 07:47 AM: The following is what I know to be the official story from Capcom of Japan. Everything that I say is my interpretation of what Capcom says the true story is. I will try to be as accurate as possible. Just remember: Capcom is usually fairly vague about their stories. Some common sense and logic is required to put it all together. Also these stories are subject to change as Capcom has done this in the past. FistsofFury: An explanation of Killing Intent Killing Intent is the true versions of techniques like Shoryu-ken and Hadou-ken. These moves were originally created to kill upon contact and are some of the most powerful techniques ever created. The Killing Intent does not turn the user evil. However, it is very powerful and power has the tendency to corrupt people. Just remember the moves themselves are not evil. The story of the Killing Intent Goutetsu was a master martial artist. He created four techniques that were so powerful they could rip an opponent to shreds in an instant. His fighting style was created to be invincible. The four moves were: Hadou-ken, Shoryu-ken, Tatsumaki-senpuu-kyaku, and Shun-goku-satsu. His style was referred to as Ansatsu-ken (assassin’s fist). Ansatsuken is a generic name for any martial art that is extremely hard to master and completely lethal. Goutetsu practiced a karate-based form of ansatsuken (compared to Gen, who uses kung fu variations of ansatsuken). Eventually Goutetsu took on two pupils. Because ansatsuken is such a difficult art, it demands that only two disciples can be taught it at the same time. The two pupils will then spar and train with each other constantly, enabling them to improve their skills and gain valuable experience. Goutetsu’s disciples were two brothers named Gouken (older) and Gouki (younger). Both were phenomenal students and learned well from their master. They both mastered the art and split apart to seek out there destinies. Later Gouken took on two students of his own, so that he could pass on his knowledge of these incredible techniques. Because Gouken disliked the killing aspects of the art, he taught his two pupils, Ryu and Ken, a non-lethal version of ansatsuken. He taught them weakened versions of the Hadou-ken, Shoryu-ken, and Tatsumaki-senpuu-kyaku. Gouki, however, was Goutetsu’s prize student. He fully embraced the Killing Intent and trained hard to perfect his killing touch. He sought to be the strongest warrior and pushed himself beyond most human limitations. After Gouki had mastered the techniques that Goutetsu had created, he came back to challenge his former master. In the ensuing battle Gouki proved himself to be the superior fighter and Goutetsu died the honorable death of a warrior. It is said that as he was about to be killed, Goutetsu was actually happy. He was thrilled to see how powerful Gouki had become, and also to see that his legacy, an invincible fighting style, would be passed on the future generations. This is just the beginning; there is more to come. If you have any questions, just ask, and I’ll try to be more specific. This is a pretty good overview of the pre-SF1 story and the development of Ryu and Ken’s fighting style. -Clay Posted by FistsofFury on 09:20:2001 01:31 PM: Thanks Clay, for the lesson I should have known that...I mean....I'm a fanfic writer.....*feels stupid*........ Anyways thanx dude Posted by FistsofFury on 09:20:2001 01:33 PM: BTW, Clay....can you explain Kairi's bio to me?? Posted by RagingAkuma on 09:20:2001 02:19 PM: Thanks Clay, I sorta figured a lot of that Dark Hadou stuff in the Alpha movies wasn't part of the actual SF storyline. Posted by Clay on 09:20:2001 03:00 PM: FistsofFury: Don't worry, there really is almost no way for anybody to know much about the SF storyline. Capcom (Japan) has changed the story a few times, and CAP USA has never translated it well. They have even changed some character endings completely and made up their own stuff. I was always interested in the story, but it was hard to figure out what is canon and what isn't. Luckily, I came across a few sources that had access to information released by Capcom. I just want to spread the word around because I think that it is interesting and I would want somebody else to do the same for me. That's why I hope people will post any information they have on the subject. I think that I have a pretty good grasp of the story, but there still is a lot that I don't know about. Don't feel stupid, it's not like we have access to this information. Also, I just wanted to say that I have read your fanfic and I think that you've done a good job with it. It's very original, and most of the characters have been faithfully recreated. Posted by Clay on 09:20:2001 03:09 PM: I'll try to post up what little info I have on Kairi. Some of it may be speculation and some of it may be various rumours. I don't play SFEX often so if anybody else has any information, feel free to help out. RagingAkuma: Yeah, it just doesn't make sense. Why would using a particular move (Hadou-ken) make a person transform between human and demonic states. Even if that was artistic interpretation, it was over-done and they made Ryu act like two different characters. More importantly, why would this move turn Gouki and Ryu "evil", when it did nothing to Goutetsu. It's kind of messed up. -Clay Posted by kane_warhead on 09:20:2001 04:14 PM: FistsofFury EX storylines aren't officially tied with SF storylines. Kairi Kairi had an amnesia. He doesn't remember when or where he came. All he remembers arean image of someone telling him to fight. That's why he fought to regain his past. On the way, he fought Akuma and manages to beat him. The Killing Intent of Akuma went to Kairi rather than dieing with Akuma. That's how Kairi managed to get the power of Shun-Goku-Satsu. Posted by Kintaro C on 09:20:2001 08:31 PM: Well, the "Satsui no Hadou" used in the anime Alpha series didn't refer to the actual Hadou-ken, but used the term "Hadou" as the energy used when practicing Ryu, Ken, and Gouki's style. Ryu wasn't struggling with himself because he used Hadou-kens, he was struggling because of the true style of his art. Like Clay said, Gouken taught Ken and Ryu the non-lethal form. Sooner or later, the two will discover, like Gouki, the true form of their style and they will have to struggle to either embrace it, or fight it. Posted by FistsofFury on 09:20:2001 08:56 PM: quote: Originally posted by Clay I just wanted to say that I have read your fanfic and I think that you've done a good job with it. It's very original, and most of the characters have been faithfully recreated. most?? Who hasn't? I'm trying trying to make my work the best it can be....I'm already thinking of doing a third re-write..... Yeah...the storyline is kinda screwed up. Thanks Capcom USA, another job well done Thanks for all the replies guys...and remember: KEEP THIS THREAD GOING!! Bump it up if ya have to....it should be a sticky IMHO...*hinthint* Posted by Lantis on 09:21:2001 02:46 AM: About Kairi: Kairi suffers a state of "dark amnesia": he has lost his memory, and now only thinks of maiming as many opponents as he can. In reality, Kairi is Hokuto and Nanase's elder brother, which seems to be a family shrouded in cursed blood (any coincidence with Orochi or Howard blood is just that ). Why is that? Well, aside from Kairi's predisposition to violence, you also have the "dark" version of Hokuto in SF EX Plus/Plus Alpha (tagged as "Seal of Blood Hokuto"). That pretty much means that some sort of dark power is running amok in the family (I think that Nanase is too young to perceive any malevolent influence). It's pretty obvious that Kairi fought Akuma, and in doing so, lost his memory (and probably gained that nasty eye scar of his). The last words that Kairi remembers, is that he must surpass his limits (this is established in the SF EX Plus Alpha instruction booklet). Doing that period of time, is where Kairi's real identity is lost, and the dark side of himself takes over. In the first SF EX games, Kairi appears in a early state of his madness. The insane version of Kairi we see in SF EX 2 must be the ultimate stage of evil he can get into. I doubt Kairi learned the power of Shun Goku Satsu...first off, his "Shun Goku Satsu"-like super looks NOTHING like Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu, does less hits, and looks all-around different. Notice how "Seal of Blood" Hokuto also has the same super. But my theory is that it's an all-new killing technique, and not a variation of the Shun Goku Satsu. Why does Kairi have Shoto moves, and even has the Ashura Warp? Most likely, Kairi must have imitated Akuma's style (as far as his memory can recall), and applied it to his own evil ways. About Q: If little is known about Kairi...less is known about everyone's favorite super spy. But let me tell you one thing...he's NOT a cyborg! In an official TS Capcom drawing that appeared in some official Capcom book (I have the drawing, if anybody wants it), there's a big group picture including secondary characters (Yun and Yang's girls, Gill's secretary Kolin, Necro's sister). In that group picture, Q appears with no mask, and his face looks like an old Haggar (gray hair and moustache). There are some pretty weird drawings in that picture...mostly, the fact that Akuma has his HAIR in his hand (he's obviously bald, and looks like some Buddhist monk because he has some headband), and Necro is holding a ripped arm...but he still has both of them attached to his body (perhaps his elastic implant?). Aside from that...maybe Q is instigating on street fighters everywhere. If he's working for an evil organization or not is beyond me... Posted by Clay on 09:21:2001 03:12 AM: quote: most?? Who hasn't? I'm trying trying to make my work the best it can be....I'm already thinking of doing a third re-write..... Whoa! I meant what I said to be a compliment, sorry if it didn’t come off that way. Here’s the thing: First off, just remember that I’m kind of a stickler for a fiction that is accurate to the original story. Also, I said that I did like your story, and that it was very original and well done. Off the top of my head, here are some ideas on your characters: Ryu- probably wouldn’t train with multiple people (he just isn’t a people-person). Also, he is too easy going to the characters and shows a lot more emotion than what I am accustomed to seeing. Imo, this is a good thing. Most people will tell you that he has needed this for a long time, but it is just something that sticks in the back of my head. Guy- I also doubt that he would train with the others. In this sense, he is much like Ryu. However, I could see him sparring with Ryu on a one on one basis. I just can’t see him hanging around Sakura and Dan (especially Dan). Gouki- this one really bothers me. Gouki is second to no one. If you want to see my views on Gouki, then check out Chaotic Blue’s storyline thread, or just ask and I’ll re-post them here (probably with some additions). I’m very adamant about this one. Sagat- he quits working for Shadoloo in the Alpha series and has distanced himself from it ever since. He is no longer filled with hatred or violent ambitions like he once (briefly) was. Don’t worry; most of those changes cater to the fans of fan-fiction, which is a good thing. This is just a reply to your question. Take it with a grain of salt. quote: BTW, Clay....can you explain Kairi's bio to me?? I’ll tell you what I know. Some of it may be true; some of it could just be a rumor. -Kairi exists in the SFEX games created by Arika. He has no place in the actual storyline as of now. -Kairi has two younger sisters who appear in the EX games as well: Hokuto and Nanase. Each sibling has his or her own destiny. I forgot what Kairi’s is, but I think that Hokuto is destined to kill Kairi, while Nanase is destined to save her two siblings. Hokuto has a split persona that is usually dubbed Evil Hokuto. I don’t remember if she is really evil or not, but it has something to do with a seal of blood. -Kairi and Gouki have met, but Kairi didn’t kill Gouki. Gouki’s absence has yet to be explained by Arika. Summary: Kairi was actually trained in a form of Bushin style ninjitsu. There are two forms, the form used to fight people (the style that Guy has mastered) and a form used to fight otherworldly demons. Kairi challenged the master of the second style to a fight and eventually won. After losing to Kairi, he taught Kairi (against his better judgment) his art. Later on, Kairi has a run in with Gouki, but is soundly defeated. This results in his amnesia and Hokuto sets out to look for her lost brother. I know that in one of the games, Kairi returns all scarred and mangled (EX2?). At this time, I can’t think of any explanations. Eventually, Hokuto and Kairi face each other in battle. I think that at this point, Hokuto in her “Seal of blood” form. Nanase is also present and tries to intervene (remember her destiny). As Kairi and Hokuto charge each other with their most devastating attacks, Nanase calls out to them, telling them to stop their nonsense. Kairi’s attack would have hit Hokuto first and killed her, but he heard Nanase and pulled back. Ironically, because of his hesitation, both of their attacks are landed at the same time, killing Kairi and Hokuto on the spot. I don’t know how much of this is true, but if any of it is incorrect, it would make for one heck of a fan-fic. All my information was given to me by people who play the EX games (I have only played EX plus @). If anybody has any more accurate information, by all means, please post it. -Clay Posted by Clay on 09:21:2001 05:19 AM: Lantis: Nice post about Kairi and Q. You must have posted it while I was writing mine, because I hadn't seen it up there before. I'm glad you mentioned the same Kairi-Gouki match that I referred to and the Seal of Blood. It shows that there was truth to at least some of what I posted. Also, the picture of Q validates my theory about his breathing and skeleton (see earlier post). Nice info. quote: Originally posted by FistsofFury KEEP THIS THREAD GOING!! Bump it up if ya have to....it should be a sticky IMHO...*hinthint* Don't worry about it. As long as people keep posting questions and other bits of information, I'll keep returning. Posted by AKUMA2000 on 09:21:2001 07:37 AM: quote: Clay:Gouki, however, was Goutetsu's prize student Gouken was, he took goutetsu's teachings to heart desiring to search and find the true way of the warrior (which he passed on to ryu), akuma was on a completely different path than his brother. quote: He fully embraced the Killing Intent and trained hard to perfect his killing touch. He sought to be the strongest warrior and pushed himself beyond most human limitations Only after his training when he discoverd goutetsu purposely left out the dark shotokhan teachings (he was already discontent with the non lethal version & wanted more), goutetsu did it to protect akuma & gouken from trying to execute the sealed powerful techniques, which akuma successfully did in spite of many warnings from goutetsu. quote: In the ensuing battle Gouki proved himself to be the superior fighter and Goutetsu died the honorable death of a warrior. It is said that as he was about to be killed, Goutetsu was actually happy. He was thrilled to see how powerful Gouki had become, and also to see that his legacy, an invincible fighting style, would be passed on the future generations Goutetsu in his old age was no match for akuma's speed, youth & power....also i don't beleive goutetsu was happy or thrilled because he never wanted the dark shotokhan killing techniques or raging demon to be learned in the first place or passed on to anyone after he died. Posted by FistsofFury on 09:21:2001 04:06 PM: Yeah...thanks for the critque Clay, I appreciate it. An EX fic would be sweet.....*ponders* Yeah....Goutetsu was no doubt in decline when Gouki challenged him to that final fight...Akuma brings up a point.. Posted by FistsofFury on 09:21:2001 11:15 PM: To anyone that cares....... To anyone that cares........ I have the GREATEST idea for my next fanfic. It's going to be called: The Assassin's Fist Tiny little synopsis: >>Takes place RIGHT BEFORE SFIII tournament<< Sakura finally begins to intensly train as Ryu becomes her Master. She has the most potential out of any Shotokan fighter in recorded history, and a lot of people have high hopes for her....until something goes wrong ..and Ryu is forced to choose his path...and Sakura's forced to choose her destiny. I plan to tie up a lot of loose ends in this one. Thanks Clay for the lesson about Ansatsu-ken, you inspired me. Posted by Clay on 09:22:2001 05:14 AM: quote: Originally posted by AKUMA2000 Gouken was, he took goutetsu's teachings to heart desiring to search and find the true way of the warrior (which he passed on to ryu), akuma was on a completely different path than his brother. I referred to Gouki as the prize pupil because he mastered the techniques that Goutetsu created. Gouken mastered them to a certain degree, but Gouki was the superior fighter. Gouken turned his back on the Killing Intent, which is what Goutetsu’s moves were created to do. They were the some of the strongest, most powerful and versatile techniques ever created, and would kill the user’s opponent if performed properly. quote: Goutetsu in his old age was no match for akuma's speed, youth & power....also i don't beleive goutetsu was happy or thrilled because he never wanted the dark shotokhan killing techniques or raging demon to be learned in the first place or passed on to anyone after he died. AKUMA2000 and FoF: Goutetsu may have been in decline (I seriously doubt this). Keep in mind that Gen was still an incredible fighter despite his old age and the fact that he was fatally ill. Also, in SF3, Gouki is 50+ years old (probably 60-70, maybe even more) and still far, far more powerful than most of the other Sf’ers. I think that it is very possible for Goutetsu to still have been in his prime. Remember, Oro (who is over 140 years old and still owns everybody else (except Gouki and Gill) refers to Gouki as young (I love that). Oh yeah, the original ansatsuken techniques are not evil, so please try not to refer to them as “dark”. Also, Goutetsu did teach Gouki and Gouken the Shun-goku-satsu. quote: Only after his training when he discoverd goutetsu purposely left out the dark shotokhan teachings (he was already discontent with the non lethal version & wanted more), goutetsu did it to protect akuma & gouken from trying to execute the sealed powerful techniques, which akuma successfully did in spite of many warnings from goutetsu. I mentioned that I was talking about the original Japanese storyline, the official one from Capcom, as I best know it. Goutetsu taught Gouki and Gouken the true versions of his techniques (including the Shun-goku-satsu). It was Gouken who disliked the killing intent, and decided not to use it. He is the one that changed Goutetsu’s style. In this sense, Gouki was the better student, because he mastered Goutetsu’s art. He would have been the one to pass on his legacy. Also, I said that it was rumored that Goutetsu was happy to see Gouki surpass him. This meant that there was a possibility for future generations to learn Goutetsu’s art. It makes sense to me, but I can’t remember if it is still official (I believe that Capcom released this info in a book about one of the Alpha games. It was in Japanese, so somebody translated it for me). AKUMA2000: Everything that you said was correct in the sense that that was the story given to us by CAP USA. I have already mentioned my distaste for CAP USA and their version of the story. They changed so many aspects of the SF Universe that there are very little similarities between the two. I prefer Capcom’s (Japan) story because this is the way that it was originally written and meant to be. My information has come from the real (Japanese) storyline. Thanks for your response. FistsofFury: I like that idea very much. This means a lot considering how much I HATE Sakura as a character. You’re right though. Sakura may have the most raw or natural fighting ability out of the whole SF cast. She has created here techniques after just watching Ryu perform his (incredible!). I still suspect that Capcom inflates her moves for the sake of balance, but no doubt, she is very talented. I’m also very honored to have inspired you. Keep it up! -Clay Posted by Azrael-sama on 09:22:2001 06:24 AM: Clay - Gen was fatally ill? I must have missed something somewhere...maybe in SFA2? Haven't played that game in ages... FoF - Sounds like an idea I had for a SF fic myself. Ryu takes on Sakura as a student, and she has high potential...and since she's so young, she also would be easier to push down the path of Ansatsu-ken, or the use of the Killing Intent. Gouki sees this, and having given up on Ryu becoming his true rival, decides to try to push Sakura to become his next challenge. I actually would like to see Capcom do another Alpha like series - after SFII but before SF3 - to tie up loose ends with the SF/SFA cast. Besides, we need another SF, bad. -Az Posted by Clay on 09:22:2001 06:43 AM: quote: Originally posted by .Just*a*Kid. I was thinking about the Street Fighter games Timeline, in relation to the story and I was wondering this... In Alpha 3 (and 2 for that matter), Gouki and Ryu already know each other and are rivals (of sorts) and all of that,But in the original series Gouki doesn't show up till SSF2T and even then he's only a secret boss, so, story wise, he's barely involved. So, was he just lerking in the shadows during the SF2 tornement, or what? Storywise, he's a main character, then disappears, then re-appears. (I mean, obviously he was invented areound the time of SSF2T, but the SFA games are suppose to be prequels, and theres never any explanation where he went, and why he popped back up) I'm kind of thinking that SFA3 and SF2 kind of occur at the same time in a way, but the only inconsistancy there is the whole Guile/Charlie storyline. Also, what happens to Sakura? theres alot of loose ends. .Just*a*Kid.: Please accept my apologies on taking sooo long to get to your question. The SF Universe actually follows a very distinct and precise timeline, including games like Saturday Night Slam Master and Final Fight (they are all linked). You just have to know what is canon and what isn’t. There are also varying times in between different games. Here is the time line: -Slam Masters series -Final Fight -Street Fighter -Final Fight 2 -Street Fighter Alpha 1&2 -Final Fight 3 -Rival Schools -Street Fighter Alpha 3 -Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo -Street Fighter 3: 2nd Impact & 3rd Strike Notes: The Slam Masters series takes place during the early 80’s. Final Fight takes place in the mid 80’s. I think that Street Fighter takes place in 1987 (it’s a little after Final Fight). Final Fight 2 takes place at nearly the same time as SF Alpha 1&2. SFA 1 and 2 are basically the same game story wise. Most people still have the same goals, rivals and so on. SFA2’s endings just expand upon the first gaame's. SFA3 takes place in the early 90’s (between 1989-’91). I’ve heard that Rival Schools actually does fit into the chronology. Most of the SF2 games are not canon. The SF 2 story is that of a single tournament. Each game in the SF 2 series, effectively, replaces the previous one. ST is the final one and the official version of the tournament. The other versions of SF2 “never” happened! SSF2T (The second World Warrior’s Tournament) took place in the between 1993-’95 (I think it’s in 1993). SF3 occurs four to five years after SF2. That means that the 3rd World Warriors Tournament took place in approximately 1997-’98. 2nd Impact and 3rd Strike are like Alpha 1&2 in that they are a continuation of each other. There have only been three World Warrior Tournaments so far. The Alpha series is not a tournament. Ryu won the first and probably the second, while Alex won the third tournament. *Kid. And FoF: There is a perfectly logical explanation for the whole Ryu-Gouki relationship. Ryu and Gouki meet and fight each other in the Alpha series. The only time they do fight is their battle on Goukentou Island (A2). Since ST is the whole SF2 storyline, Gouki is involved in the whole story. I’ll explain the SF2 story later if you are interested. SFA ends up “replacing” the old SF2 games. Sagat doesn’t work for Shadoloo during the second WW tournament like he does according to the old SF2 games. The official story is that he leaves Vega (M. Bison) in Alpha 2 and no longer works with him in A3 and SSF2T. Charlie He only dies once (thank god!). Guile’s A3 ending is his official ending. Charlie was the only one ordered to capture Vega. Later, when he became obsessed with Vega’s apprehension, Guile was ordered to return Charlie. Charlie ends up dying in order to save Guile’s life. In SSF2T, Guile goes off on his own to take revenge on Vega and avenge Charlie’s death. The A3 ending never shows Charlie die, but hopefully, he will stay dead this time. Capcom has stated that A3 (Guile’s ending) is Charlie’s official story and they have never mentioned bringing him back at all. I like Charlie, but it is just better for the integrity of the story that he stays dead. SF’s story has already had its fair share of mistakes and doesn’t need Charlie to come back again. -Clay Posted by Clay on 09:22:2001 08:47 AM: Azrael-sama: I believe that I read about Gen’s illness in a bio about him. There is a slight possibility that it isn’t true because I can’t remember it being directly mentioned in any of the Alpha games. However, I think that it is alluded to in A3. Anyway, it does explain Gen’s behavior and his reasoning for wanting to fight with Gouki (which is basically suicide). As I understand it, Gen searches for Gouki because he wants to die honorably in battle. In Gen’s A3 ending, he actually seems disappointed that he has killed Gouki. He says that Gouki was the only on worthy of a death match. He doesn’t want die with a whimper (due to old age or his possible illness), but with a bang (fighting with all his might against an equally skilled warrior). I’ll try to look into this to see if I can find any evidence to back up my earlier statement. I would also like to see another SF in between 2 and 3. I want to see Gen actually die, sort out the Rose-Vega connection (what happens to them in the end), and find out what happens to Adon. I thought that Capcom might have re-made SSF2T. They could update the story to match the Alpha story, actually determine a true winner of the tournament, and show Gouki kill Vega. From there, they could use the same engine to have one or two more sequels to tie up some of their loose ends. Last, I like you avatar. Old school Transformers rule! Now I digress, I’d like to take a little time to post up some information on the second World Warriors Tournament (SSF2T). The second tournament was sponsored by Vega. His goal was to get revenge upon the warriors who had defeated him in the Alpha series. From what I've heard, he actually sent out invitations to the fighters, but I’m not exactly sure if they knew what his intentions were or even who sent the invitations out. Shadoloo scientists engineered a new body for Vega to posses in this tournament (his first one was destroyed at the end of the Alpha series). I think that everybody knows each characters motive for entering the tournament, but I’ll briefly go over them: Ryu- classic Ryu reasoning: to test himself against new challenges. Ken- possibly hoping for a match against Ryu to settle things with his rival Sagat- wants to fight Ryu to decide who is the true champion. At this point Ryu and Sagat each have a win over each other Guile- wants avenge Charlie’s death. Chun Li- looking to avenge her father’s (who is still nameless) death M. Bison- Vega’s henchman Balrog- Vega’s henchman, also may hope to run into Cammy again (he saves her in A3) E. Honda- to prove that sumo wrestling is the strongest fighting style Dhalsim- wishes to achieve mastery of his mind, spirit, and body to reach a new level. Possibly wants to help stop Vega. Blanka- I don’t know why he’s here, but he does find his mommy. Zangief- to return pride back to Russia (he’s a true patriot) Vega- seeks revenge against those who have stopped him in the past (duh!) T. Hawk- want’s to destroy Shadoloo because they took over his homeland (he must have already retrieved his sister, Noembelu) Fei Long- has already become a famous actor. Seeks new challenges and excitement in the fight Dee Jay- blah, useless to the story. Fighting helps him create new styles of music Cammy- wants to bring down Shadoloo, doesn’t know of her past history Gouki- I don’t think he was invited to the tournament (he and Vega may or may not met each other in the Alpha series, though Gouki definitely know about Vega), but he shows up anyway Unfortunately, not too much is known about the details of this tournament. If Ken and Ryu meet in it I assume that Ryu wins. I don’t think that Ryu and Sagat get a chance to settle their score in this tournament (could Vega beat Sagat?). My best guess is that Ryu officially wins the tournament (this is also what I have heard the most). Vega definitely does die in this tournament. So far, I’ve heard two fairly realistic variations of Vega’s death: First, Vega’s fight in the tourney finals (most likely with Ryu) is interrupted by Gouki, who proceeds to kill Vega with the Shun-goku-satsu. What happens after this is unknown (do Ryu and Gouki fight again?). The second (and better, imo) variation is that Vega is fighting Ryu (again the most likely finalist) and Ryu ends up defeating Vega and knock him unconscious. When Vega awakens, everybody else is gone, and Gouki has arrived on the scene. They fight, and Gouki proceeds to slaughter him, hopefully with the Shun-goku-satsu. One last interesting fact: Cammy’s ending where she and Vega are “lovers” doesn’t exist. CAP USA totally made this one up! I’ve heard that in her Japanese ending, Vega is translated as saying something about them working together in the past. This makes a lot more sense considering the Alpha storyline. That’s all that I can think of right now. As usual if anybody has any comments, questions, or corrections, feel free to post them. -Clay Posted by Azrael-sama on 09:22:2001 10:25 AM: Thanks Clay, you sure know your SF! I seem to recall always hearing about a trait of the shun-goku-satsu...the more evil that is in one's heart, the more pain the shun-goku-satsu will inflict on them. However, I can't recall ever seeing that in a game storyline, so it may have been fabricated somewhere for entertainment value. I really want to see a game between SF2 and 3. I want to know what happens to Rose and Gen, as well as Karin, Gief, Sagat, Sim, Balrog, and Cammy. I would also like to know what happens to Chun-Li between SF2 and SF3:3S. And I'd also like to see the introductions of Gill, Q, Ibuki, Alex, and maybe Sean. Also, I'd really like to see Vega get ultimately offed by Gill. My fantasy SF Beta (or whatever you would call an Alpha follow-up...) would go like this - Ryu and Ken have been urged to take on students; by passing on their knowledge, they can learn new things themselves. Ryu takes Sakura and Ken takes Sean (in the game, Sakura and Sean would be real shotos and Ryu and Ken wouldn't be playable). Gouki notices that Sakura is learning true shotokan now, and with her incredible potential he sees an opportunity. One day, he appears during a training session and quickly dispatches Ryu and Ken. He tells Sakura that she will never be able to become a master unless she studies the true style, Ansatsu-ken. After Ryu and Ken wake up, Sakura and Sean question them about it, and they admit that their style is a modified, non-lethal version of the true style. Sean doesn't care much, seeing as how Ken is the US champ by using his modified style, but Sakura remembers Ryu's struggle during the Alpha series and wonders if the same will happen to her. Gouki decides to push her in an attempt to get her to start using the killing intent. Karin returns after taking a few years off to train - she and Sakura fight in a friendly match. But Gouki appears and challenges Karin. Karin and Sakura both try to fight him off, but Karin is killed. Gouki tells Sakura that she could have saved her if she was only using the true style. Sakura becomes extremely upset and begins to actually ponder Gouki's words. Ryu sees this and challenges her to a fight - to try and show her how not to use the killing intent, and that she doesn't need it. But Gouki appears again and takes out Ryu, seemingly killing him. Sakura becomes enraged and begins using the killing intent. Ken tries to fight her, but he is defeated as well. As Gouki prepares to fight her, which would ultimately push her over the edge, Gen appears and knocks out Sakura, then challenges Gouki to a fight. They go off and fight, and Gen is ultimately killed. Ryu comes back and fights Sakura again, this time knocking her out and quelling the killing intent for the moment. Afterwards, Sakura is still very bitter and despondent about Karin's death. Both Ryu and Ken realize that with Sakura's potential and her lack of true discpline, she may not be able to fight off the killing intent if she continues to study shotokan. Ryu must release her as a student, and Sakura decides to study another, non-lethal form of martial arts. She promises to return one day when her discipline is better. Sean decides that he wants to make his own version of the style, much like Ken did - which is why he has the unique style he does in SF3. Ryu, now convinced that he is destined to the lonely way of the warrior, goes back to wandering and fighting. Without Ryu around, Ken has no real motivation to fight and decides to settle down with Eliza a bit. In another side part of the story, Chun-Li has gone back to working with Interpol, when she is given a case - Street Fighters are mysteriously turning up dead here and there. She instantly suspects Gouki - she chases him and actually finds him. She fights him, but is easily defeated. Gouki admits that some of his opponents have died during their fights, but he isn't responsible for all of the cases Chun-Li is investigating. Chun-Li remembers Ryu's struggle with the evil intent during the Alpha series, and wonders if it could have happened again. So she begins to chase Ryu, fearing that he's taken the killing intent path. She finds Ryu, but Ryu is still traveling down his path. However, Gouki is beginning to get the killing intent out of Sakura, so Chun-Li suspects her. As Chun is building a case on Sakura, she overhears a rumor that Vega is alive. Infuriated, she instantly pursues that lead, and finds Vega in yet another rebuilt body. He has given up on trying to absorb the shotos, and is instead pursuing a new, greater power: Gill, who turns out to be the other person responsible for the deaths. Vega challenges him, but is killed. Chun-Li fights Gill, but is easily beaten. Frustrated, she decides that maybe it's time for her to train heavily, perhaps change her fighting style a little (thus the change in 3S). Yes, I do have too much time on my hands for the moment. Oh, and yes, old school Transformers ruled all. It's all about Soundwave. -Az Posted by RagingAkuma on 09:24:2001 04:47 AM: How can SF2 take place in 93-94 when Zangief is fighting out of the USSR which disbanded in 92? Just a trivial note really but hey... Posted by AKUMA2000 on 09:24:2001 02:32 PM: I agree with you Clay about Capcom USA, they've changed the storyline more times than i can count. If the official storyline came from cap japan, i wondered why cap usa changed the story so much. Where did the dark shotokhan, the ancient scrolls & the sealing of the raging demon come in ? (most likely cap usa) Posted by Clay on 09:24:2001 02:37 PM: RagingAkuma: That's a good question; one that I'm not sure if I know the answer to. My only response is that Zangief is fighting to restore prestige to his fallen country (Russia is definitely in decline during this period). Also, when Zangief talks (quotes, endings, in game references), I believe that he says Russia instead of USSR. I know the game says that Zangief is from the USSR, but that is probably Capcom being lazy (it happens all the time). Anyway, '93-'94 is my estimation for when the tournament takes place. It makes sense in the storyline, and I have yet to see any evidence that discredits this. If any exists, let me know. Azrael-sama: I'll try to respond to your post later today. I have some info on the Shun-goku-satsu and some comments about your ideas. PS About Gen's illness, Lantis confirmed this. In Chaotic Blue's thread he says that Gen coughs up blood in his A2 ending. This is true and is further proof that Gen is not totally healthy. I'm going to play A2 and A3 later this week (when I have time) and see if I can get anymore information. Thanks to Lantis for indirectly supporting me. -Clay Posted by Clay on 09:24:2001 02:52 PM: AKUMA2000: I just saw this, so I'll post a reply up really quickly. The whole story about Goutetsu sealing the raging demon was totally CAP USA's invention. Gouki was never "warned by his master", because according to Capcom of Japan, Goutetsu himself taught Gouki the move. Goutetsu also created the technique and never wrote anything down on any scrolls (as far as I know). Also, the whole line about the his "ancestors sealing the move" is impossible. CAP USA makes it sound like the technique has been around for thousands of years, when Goutetsu actually created it rather recently. Unless Capcom completely changes Goutetsu's history (why would they do this?) I'll stand by everything that I have said. As far as CAP USA goes, they have screwed up because they not only translate the story poorly, but they also rush the product to the market. CAP USA seems to only care about the bottom line (profit) and not about accuracy or fan loyalty. Also, Capcom has never held CAP USA liable for any of it's errors. They basically have given them free reign over the story. It's akin to allowing a monkey to translate Shakespeare, and I think is sucks. I don't want to sound like I'm anti-Capcom, because I love them (CAP of Japan) and I love SF (in the end that's what is important), its just that they haven't made it easy for me or anyone in America to know what is going on. Thanks for the replies AKUMA2000. Posted by AKUMA2000 on 09:24:2001 03:15 PM: Thanks for the info Clay, cap usa really sucks sand. Do you happen to have the cap japan SF storyline site ? Posted by Ultima on 09:24:2001 04:26 PM: I figure it's time to repost this. This was taken from the message board on www.cammyfan.com. A lot of it coincides with what you say Clay. Almost word for word at times. Did you post this over there by any chance under the name "Kyokugen Master"? Part 1: quote: 1. Final Fight 1 took place in mid 1980's 2. The Slam Masters series takes place before Final Fight. 3. The final downfall of Mad Gear took place 1 year before Alpha3 (this most likely being FF2). 4. By the time the alpha series rolled around, Capcom changed Genryusai to just being Maki's dad and master. She also uses the Bushin Ninjutsu fighting style. And no, Gunloc/Colt isn't Guile's brother or relative. They're not related in any way at all. That was just Capcom USA making things up as usual (similar to Kazuya's cousin, lol). The real story is that he was picked up by Haggar and trained under him with Biff Slamkovich. Gunloc has gotten in a fight with Cody because he was putting the moves on Jessica and lost pretty badly. 5. The only person that’s related to Guile is Ken. They're brothers in law. Jane (Guile's wife) and Eliza are sisters. The reason He and Ken never had an intro was because it was said that Guile disliked Ken because of his big ego and "play-boyish" attitude. 6. Here's the chronology: Slammasters/Muscle Bomber {Haggar was a wrestler} Ring of Destruction {Haggar still a wrestler} Street Fighter/Final Fight (Haggar is now the Mayor) Final Fight 2/Street Fighter Alpha 1&2(Guy wasn't in FF2 because he was chasing down Bison) Final Fight 3 Rival Schools Street Fighter Alpha 3 Street Fighter 2 series Street Fighter 3 series 7. Both Gill and Urien are kinda' like Bison in a sense that their soul won't die. Urien is basically, like everyone says, a demi-god. 8. When SF2 was released, Capcom said that Bison was trained by someone along side 2 other people. So there were two others that were on the same level as Bison and one more that was even stronger than him. Capcom never said who Bison's master was or who these two mystery people were. 9. Gouki did defeat M.Bison. Capcom has at least confirmed this but they didn't say who was fighting Bison at that time. All Capcom has said is that Alex won the 3rd SF tournament. 10. Sagat was never a Street Fighter champion. He defeated the former Muay Thai Champ, Nua Kahn. 11. Gouken didn't teach Retsu. Retsu and Gouken were friends but they weren't pupil and master. 12. Ryu didn't beat Sagat fairly. Sagat actually had a BIG upper hand. When Ryu was about to faint, Satsui no Hado awakened. Sagat was actually giving his hand out to help Ryu up because he was confident he already won. Sagat was caught off guard with Satsui no Ryu's Metsu Shoryuken. 13. Neither Ryu nor Ken saw Gouken battle Gouki. The only witness is Gouken's daughter, who disappeared after that. 14. Only Charlie was ordered to take down Bison. Guile was ordered to bring back Nash in Alpha 3. 15. Gouken had a daughter who's in the Japanese SF story line. Ryu and Ken referred to her only as "Little Miss". There were 2 sketches of her in various Jap. fan books. The 2 Versions of Gouken's daughter: Imagine Yuri with hair like Mai's and wears a yellow gi. Give her an elbow pad. Curl the pants up to her knees. Imagine Vice with Black/Blue hair. Give her a white gi. Curl her pants to her knees and give her the same beads Gouki has. She never made it past the story and sketches. 16. SFA3 takes place 3 years before SF2 series. 17. Since SF2, Sagat has been waiting for Ryu to come to him so they can have their final battle to the death. 18. These are the names of the 12 girls Bison kidnapped from around the world and trained to become dolls: Enero (Spain) - January Fevrier (France) - February Marz (Germany) - March Aprile (Italy) - April Satsuki (Japan) - May Juni (Germany) - June Juli (Germany) - July Santum(-u) (Vietnam) - August Xiayu (China) - September Yanyu (China) - October Noembelu/November (Latin) - November Decapre/Dikappri (Russia) - December Noembelu is supposed to be who T Hawk was looking for. Aprile has a brother that’s searching for her and has talked to Rose about her whereabouts. All of them (including Cammy) are 16. 19. Dan was kicked out of Gouken's dojo before the first Street Fighter tourney began. 20. What became of the following characters after SFA3? Karin - trains so that one day she can defeat Sakura R Mika - Became a pro wrestler Sakura - went off to train around the world Cody - he's still running around doing useless things Ryu defeated Sagat once. Alpha takes place a year after Street Fighter. Gouki's island is named Gouketsutou. Ryu was supposed to have his red bandana in Zero3 but Capcom got lazy. 21. Sagat let Dan win because he saw that Dan would be corrupted by "evilness" (I suppose) if he didn't. Sagat hated Ryu because Ryu beat him with a cheap shot and left a scar. 22. No, Yun and Yang have no relation to Gen. Lee is Yun and Yang’s father. 23. Sagat lost his right eye. 24. Vega was born in a noble Spanish family. His mother is also from a noble family but they went under (everyone in this family was beautiful). The tattoo on his body represents his mother’s side of the family. Anyways, an ugly nobleman picked her up. Despite his ugliness, he was loaded so she married him and had Vega. Since Bull Fighting's a common tradition in some Spanish families, Vega began to develop a taste for it and became a skillful matador. However, he decided to take a twist in his hobbies and went to Japan in order to learn Ninjitsu, a style that went perfectly with his agility and speed. He took part in many street fights and soon became one of Spain's best cage fighters. Angry that his wife lacked respect for him, Vega's father killed Vega's mom in secret. This is what made Vega snap and turned him into a psychotic killer. In the public, he was just an honorable nobleman. At night he went around killing ugly street beggars for fun. This is what made M.Bison like him and recruits him into Shadowloo. His full name's Vega Fabio de Cerna. 25. Gen and Chun Li's father (Dorai) were actually friends(this is why Chun Li has one of Gen's moves). She was told by Gen to find Bison. When she found him, she got the @#%$ beat out of her. M.Bison then flew away telling her the next time they meet; he'll end her quick like her father. 26. Makoto's dad's name is Masaru. 27. The Japanese (original) name of the fighting style Ryu/Ken use is Ansatsu-ken. 28. Dan is the one that taught Blanka how to speak English. In the process, Dan learned that Blanka's real name was Jimmy. Oh yeah, Blanka once saved Dan's life in the jungle. That's how they know each other. 29. Ken's parents and Gouken are long-time friends. 30. The Psycho drive can channel any negative energy or emotions. But Bison can get more from fighters. Bison blows up because his current body couldn't handle any more Psycho Power. When the Psycho Drive blows up, all the energy stored in there gets released. The released energy goes to Bison's body, Bison's body can't take it and *BOOM* Posted by Ultima on 09:24:2001 04:28 PM: Here's the rest: quote: 31. The name's of Ibuki's fellow ninjas/teachers that appear in her stage in 1 of the SF3's are: Sanjou- The tall guy in the long coat Genda- The small, fat and bald Krillin rip-off. Enjou- The Floating Ninja (NO, HE'S NOT GEKI!). Raion- The big guy wearing beads around his neck. Don- the raccoon. 32. Cammy's fellow Delta-Red team Members: (Major)Matthew McCoy- The big cyborg dude. Colonel Keith Wolfman- Dude with the scarred face. 1st Lieutenant Rita Ruwanda- Girl with big-ass blade. George Ginzu- the funny-looking kid. 33. A simplified ending of SFA3: The things that did happen in Zero3. Rose did fight Bison. Guy came and rescued her after. Exhausted and badly wounded from the battle, Rose died soon after. Ryu was taken over by Bison. Believe it or not, Ken and Sakura brought him back to his normal self. Bison ran away after facing Ryu, Ken and Sakura. All 13 soldiers(Cammy, Juli, Juli, etc.) turned on M.Bison. Cammy was nearly killed. Vega rescued her (like in his SFA3 ending) and placed her in front of Delta Red HQ. He didn't turn against Bison and neither did Balrog. M.Bison faced Guile and Charlie in his base. The base started to explode and Charlie continued fighting so Guile and Chun Li could escape. He died, Bison survived. As a side note, T. Hawk wasn't supposed to take Juli, he was supposed to take Noembelu. But Capcom was too lazy to make another character so they just changed it to Juli. I like to say it was Juli so that it stays simple. SF2 story M.Bison sets up a tournament because he wants to get back at Ryu, Ken, Chunli and Guile. Sagat enters to get his re-match against Ryu. I think he used the tournament also as an attempt to lure Gouki out of hiding. 34. Remy's dad deserted him and his older sister. When his sister died, he froze her in ice and kept her in that cavern. Now he wants to kill everyone that fights. There is no truth to Remy being related to anyone in Street Fighter. 35. Because Street Fighter Alpha 1 & 2 basically run off the same plot, they're considered one game, story wise. There is no difference, really. You probably noticed how each character holds the same grudge in alpha 2 as they did in alpha 1. 36. Because Cammy is said to be 19 during the SF2 Series and because her official birth-date is 1974, SF2WW-SSF2T's suppose to take place during '93. Since most people say the SF3 series took place 4/5 years later, SF3 takes place during 97/98. 37. Rose shares the same soul with Bison and was once his pupil. 38. The Kanji letter "Ki" in Gouki`s name doesn't actually mean "ghost" or "demon". it means "Oni". Oni in Japanese is the imaginary monster that looks like a horned human. In Japan it is also believed that human or human’s spirit can turn to Oni when they’re extremely obsessed with hatred, anger or vengeance. 39. Akuma doesn't become Shin Akuma. Akuma IS Shin Akuma, except that he holds back punches and uses only a small percent of his power. He does this because he doesn't want to unnecessarily kill anyone who he feels aren't out to kill him in the first place. 40. Gouken had the character "Mu" which means "nothing", "naught" on his back. 41. So far, the official way Charlie died is Guile's SFZ3 ending. But knowing Capcom, they might change that again. 42. Akuma may be evil by our moral standards (he killed his teacher and brother), but he is not evil by his own ethical code. His code is the harsh code of the absolute warrior. He had no qualms killing his teacher and brother because he killed them in fair one-on-one combat. It didn't matter who they were; the field of battle does not distinguish between friend or foe. And he only fights and kills those who call themselves warriors and trains in fighting; he doesn't go around killing defenseless normal people. 43. Ryu first became Evil Ryu when he beat Sagat. That's when it first awakened in him. He had no clue what it was then. He then faced off against Gouki and was told about "Satsui no Hado". In SFZ3 he was still swaying back and forth from being Ryu and evil Ryu. The time when M.Bison had him, he was just a brain-washed Ryu who was under Bison's control. Sakura was only about 25-27 during SF3. 44. Bison returned in the SF2 series because his scientists made another host body for him. 45. Gouken pic: www.geocities.com/hyperfi...gouken.jpg Pics of Street Fighter 1 characters: www.geocities.com/zeroalp...k1_all.htm 46. Saiki says that Sagat was present during the Ryu, Ken and Sakura vs. Bison fight, but didn't help Ryu defeat M.Bison. It was pretty much, Ryu (controlled by Bison) vs. Sagat, Ken and Sakura vs. M.Bison. The SF2 series' story line has been altered since the alpha series. Sagat's story line has changed also. He's not one of the 4 lords of Shadowloo anymore. With the new story line, it's Ryu's turn to go challenge Sagat this time because Sagat beat him. Even though Ryu was controlled by Bison, a loss is a loss. Neither Ryu or Sagat actually has a clean win over each other. Ryu won the 1st time by tapping into the powers of "Satsui no Hado/Dark Hado". Sagat won the 2nd time because Ryu was brainwashed. That's why Sagat isn't in SF3, he's waiting in Thailand for the real re-match against Ryu. 47. Despite that Retsu was only Gouken's long time friend (and not student), It's still true that he DID know Ryu, Ken and possibly Gouken's daughter. He's a fallen monk who practices forbidden techniques of Sholinji kenpo. He entered the Street Fighter 1 tourney to fight strong opponents(how cliché is that?). 48. I've read 2 ways Bison met his end and they both involve Gouki. I'll tell you both. a)Gouki interrupted the final battle of the 2nd World Warriors tournament and killed Bison with the Raging Demon. What hasn't been said is who was fighting M.Bison at that time. I'm guessing it was Ryu. b)The final battle of the 2nd World Warriors tournament was between Bison and Ryu. Even though Bison was at the height of his power, Ryu was able to bring him down with a powerful Dragon Punch. Bison slipped into unconsciousness and found an unknown fighter standing over him when he awoke. It was in fact, Gouki, the fighter Bison had heard about during the Alphas. Before he could ask Gouki to join him, Gouki used his lethal Raging Demon technique on the fallen dictator. Although Bison was believed to have been killed, no body was ever found. 49. In the ending of Final Fight, Guy beats up Cody using his combination attack and then leaps off screen before Jessica and Cody are reunited. It's not apparent whether he was a member of Mad Gear as well or if he just had a grudge against Cody, but in SFA2, the mid-boss battle with Rolento hints that he was a former Mad Gear member (he tells Guy, "I see you remember your true leader.") I've heard that Guy was a former Mad Gear member at least twice before I read this. 50. The writing on Guy's outfit says Bushin-Warrior(War)God. Bushin is the Japanese God of War. Guy's the 39th Bushinryu master. 51. Ryu and Ken trained in Gouken's Dojo for 10 years. 52. Dan's Background Story: Once there was a fighter who challenged the Muay Thai Emperor, Sagat. This fighter destroyed Sagat's right eye completely, but lost. That man's name was Go Hibiki, Dan Hibiki's father. Sometime after the battle with Sagat, Go died. Dan, as a young child, hated Sagat because he killed his father. To prepare for his revenge, he traveled from his home in Hong Kong to Japan to study martial arts. He trained under a Shotokhan master named Gouken for a time, but was kicked out of his dojo because his heart was too filled with hatred for Sagat. After that, Dan returned to Hong Kong and trained himself using his own "style." While he was waiting for his chance for revenge, he received news that Sagat had been defeated. According to rumor, Sagat was beat by a strange Japanese guy. Dan wonders who this fighter is. He cannot let anyone interfere with his plans for revenge. Dan immediately heads to Thailand in search of Sagat. 53. Ansatsuken is a Generic Term that translates to "Murderous Fist" but it actually means any martial art that is Very Hard. Hard means it goes for the offense, for the kill. Unlike Aikido or Judo. This ansatsuken Goutetsu developed was a Karate variation. Gen's variation is based on Chinese martial arts i.e the Souryuu and Kiryuu. Both are Martial arts developed to kill, therefore they are both Ansatsuken. Maybe one way to see this is from just one move from each variation: Gouki has the Shun Goku Satsu - A move meant to kill, hitting the vital points to destroy your body. Similarly, Gen has the Shi Ten Shou under the Souryuu move. This move Hits various vital points on your body to ultimately make your body slowly die. Both are moves that were designed to kill, not injure. There are probably other ansatsuken out there, just...not in SF. And yeah, any SF instruction booklet you look in will say that Gen's fighting style is Ansatsuken. I'd know. 54. Zero 2 Ryu's ending happenned Ken's ending happenned Chunli's ending happenned Adon's ending happenned Sagat's ending happenned(except the fighting Ryu part didn't) Birdie's ending happenned(except Birdie didn't defeat Vega) Guy's ending happenned(except he didn't fight Vega) Nash's ending didn't happen Rose's ending happenned Vega's ending happenned Gouki's ending happenned Dan's ending happenned Zangief's ending happenned Sakura's ending happenned 55. Final Fight 3's plot The Mad Gear Gang met defeat once more in FF2 (at the hands of Haggar, Maki and Carlos). With the gang quickly falling apart, they fought within themselves, battling each other until one of them reined supreme. A lot of the city's other gangs joined the battle over control of the streets as well. In the end, the Skull Cross Gang was the victor and it was now up to Haggar and Guy to stop them. This also introduces their new allies Lucia and Dean. Dean was asked to join the Skull Cross gang, but he refused so they slaughtered his family and has him seeking revenge. Lucia's a detective from Metro City's Special Crimes Unit who aided Haggar in bringing down the gang as a way of repaying him for clearing her of a corruption charge. She's also an old friend of Cody's. 56. Yun and Yang are twins, originally from Hong Kong, who use Chinese Kempo(Kenpo?). Their parents separated when they were very young, so they moved in with their grandparents in Shanghai. Now, they're considered to be town leaders, always ready to protect their part of Shanghai. 57. The Andore Family: Andore Jr. (Hugo) U.Andore F.Andore G.Andore possibly Andore also 58. Go Hibiki has been portrayed in many different ways by many diverse artists, for example: In a non-official Gamest Magazine manga, Go wore a sleeveless gi and gloves(like ARK's). His hair was slick back except for one strand that hung forward, over his forehead. In Pocket Fighter, he wears a sleeveless dark green gi, a red tengu mask and matching gloves exactly like the other shotoclones. His hair's like Dan's and his skin is tanned. Like Dan, he wears a black T-shirt under his gi, and bears a red symbol on his back, meaning "father." The truth: Go Hibiki looked like a Muay Thai fighter. Unlike what most people think, he didn't practice the same art as Gouken, Gouki, Ryu, etc, etc. He was a pure Muay Thai fighter. Hence he challenged Sagat because Sagat was the current Muay Thai god at the time. 59. Major Warren Major Warren is one of 3 original characters appearing in the 4th Street Fighter Drama CD, "Street Fighter II Gaiden ~Cammy - Tatakai no Jokyoku." A fellow member of Britain's Special Operations Division, he is partnered with Cammy for most of the story. He is 43 years old. 60. Lucia's(Final Fight 3)last name's Morgan. 61. SF Characters with official last names Ken Masters Edmund Honda Sakura Kasugano Cammy White Dan Hibiki Mike Bison Karin Kanzuki Mika Nanakawa Yun Lee Yang Lee Sean Matsuda Rolento Schugerg (possibly) Hugo Andore 62. The Shadaloo Dolls: www.shadaloo.hpg.com.br/J...0Final.gif www.cammyfan.com/Cammy-in...clones.gif 63. The idea of Ryu falling in love with Chun Li is impossible. Not because she is not good enough, but because their paths do not cross. Ryu has really devoted his entire life to the way, so he really couldn't care less about having this kind of relationship with a woman. Again, if you saw the movie, remember when Ken's girlfriend comes to pick him up at the end of the film? Ryu wasn't even looking at her! And she was very attractive. I don't think it was out of disrespect, but rather because Ryu has the mentality of a child in that respect. Within a child, sexual desires are non-existent. So he was probably thinking of the fight again. 64. For those of you who don't know, Gill's secretary's name's "Kolin". Samantha- Blanka's mother. Sally & Datta- Dhalsim's wife and son. Senoh- This is the scientist from the SF Anime, who appears in some endings in SF Alpha 2. Posted by Ultima on 09:24:2001 04:34 PM: To Lantis: I think I know the picture you're talking about, and it doesn't count. That picture looks like a "Cast of Third Strike" if the characters were portrayed by actors, which is why the characters look so strange. There is very little known about Q because Capcom has said next to nothing about him (they haven't said much about Remy either). He really is "the unknown". To Clay: Concerning Q - actually, if you hit him with an electric attack, you DON'T see a skeleton. Posted by Shoto-ism™ on 09:24:2001 07:46 PM: I have some hard questions 1. what happened to the rest of the SF2 cast (except: Chun,ryu,Ken) that didn't make it into SF3. 2. In Q's ending he is chasing after some one, who? Why did he enter into the SF3 tourney? 3. How did gill abtain his power. 4. why are SF stroylines so weak. Posted by Clay on 09:24:2001 10:24 PM: Ultima: First off, thanks for the correction about Q’s skeleton. I don’t play him often, but I must have made a mistake. Next, I haven’t ever been to any message boards at cammyfan, but I swear that I have seen some of the info that you posted somewhere else before, any ideas? Some of that information is very interesting and it does sound very accurate. Do you know the source? Anyway, your right, some of it matches what I have said perfectly. Last, do you know if Mike from SF1 is the same person as Mike Bison? I’ve heard conflicting reports on this one and nobody has ever backed it up with some real information. PS Thanks again for the post and correction, Ultima. I appreciate the influx of information. I hope it is accurate. Like I said, some of it does look very familiar, but I can’t quite place where I’ve seen it before (gamefaqs?). If you know the source I’d like to be able to get in contact with them. On another note, I remember visiting your website a while back and I liked it very much. This really isn’t the place to get into it, so I’ll PM you or something. Shoto-ism: About the SF storyline. It’s weak because Capcom always puts more effort into the actual game itself, which is what’s really important. I wish that they would be a little more thorough with the story too, but hopefully they will improve if enough people ask for it. In the end, I’d rather have a great SF with no story than a poor one with a well-developed story. Also, I’m not so sure that Gill obtains his power, because it seems to come to him naturally. It’s quite possible that he is super-natural being. There really isn’t an explanation for the things that he is able to do (Seraphic Wing or the way that he separates the water in his 3s ending). Gill is able to control both fire and ice, which are carnal opposites of each other. This is supposed to represent his ability to control the dual natures of mankind (good vs. evil). Gill hopes to create a world where everything is in a state of equilibrium, where opposites balance (cancel?) each other out. In such a place, mankind would be content and no longer resort to extreme and unnecessary measures to achieve its goal. That is my interpretation so far. AKUMA2000: There is no official site that I know of. That is why it is sooo hard to gather any decent info at all. Everything that I say is my interpretation of the events. I get all of my information via the character endings, word of mouth, and on the net. After that, I just use as much common sense and logic as possible to decipher what is accurate and what isn’t. A lot of what I say has been confirmed by Capcom (and by what Ultima posted, if it is official), but some of it is my opinion. I wish that I could be of more help. -Clay Posted by Clay on 09:24:2001 11:11 PM: This is in response to Azrael-sama’s post. >Thanks Clay, you sure know your SF! I hope so! I just do the best that I can with what I know. I also want to spread the word, because I hate hearing people repeat the same misconceptions over and over again. >I seem to recall always hearing about a trait of the shun-goku-satsu...the more evil that is in one's heart, the more pain the shun-goku-satsu will inflict on them. However, I can't recall ever seeing that in a game storyline, so it may have been fabricated somewhere for entertainment value. Okay, I’ve heard two different ideas on the Shun-goku-satsu. My opinion is that it is an attack that pinpoints 14 weak points in the body and the 15th hit kills the victim. This definition fits in best with story as I know it and with the history of Ansatsuken that I have given. The second version is something that is similar to what you were saying. In A3, Gouki actually mentions this (his ending isn’t official for this game). In the American version of the game, he states that the worse your past sins are, the more painful your death will be. I have heard some people say that during the raging demon, Gouki teleports the victim to Hell for a split second, thus allowing their sins to destroy them. I’m not very sure which version is canon, but Ultima’s post confirms my version. I don’t know if Capcom has actually stated what happens during the attack. Oddly enough, I believe that Gen is able to survive the move. He is also very well trained in ansatsuken, could survive either version of the attack. He is able to block or at least avoid enough of the shun-goku-satsu that Gouki doesn’t land a fatal blow, or in the case traveling to Hell, I’ve heard that he keeps his mind totally clear, rendering his visit to Hell harmless. Just a little info that I thought was pretty interesting. Az: I would like to see a story that would let us know what happens with some of the characters, but some of your stuff is a little too far-fetched for me. Don’t worry; I’m just too much of a straight-laced fan for my own good. >Oh, and yes, old school Transformers ruled all. It's all about Soundwave. Yeah, Soundwave (love his voice!) is cool. He has so many options: Lazorbeak, Ravage, and Rumble (I love that little guy and how he asks who “wants to rumble with Rumble?”). I love watching Rumble take down an Autobot that is two or three times his size! My favorite Decepticon was always Star scream. I never thought that he got the respect that he deserves. He is fast and powerful, and also an excellent fighter (plus he always comes back from the grave; I think that he may have been immortal). Null Ray and Cluster Bomb were too good! -Clay Posted by soujiroten on 09:24:2001 11:26 PM: Um... the Alpha series' story isn't canon. In fact, none of that stuff is canon except what happened in SF1, SF2 and SF3. The animes and movies are unofficial. The Alpha storylines are also unofficial. Alpha's another series that's like 'What if?'. If they were, there would be so many discrepancies it wouldn't be funny. Capcom makes fighting games, not RPGs. The stories surrounding these characters doesn't matter anywhere near as much as whether you can crouch cancel for an infinite on the 1p side using the j.strong. --SJ Posted by Azrael-sama on 09:24:2001 11:54 PM: God I love this thread. Thanks for the SF info Ultima! Wow, lots of stuff I didn't know...I had no idea Guile and Ken were brothers in law... I believe that the Mike from SF1 is Mike Bison/Balrog in the US. When Capcom of Japan put him in SFII, they added the "Bison" as a parody to Mike Tyson. The name was eventually shortened to M.Bison. Capcom of USA didn't want to risk a potential lawsuit, so the whole name switching thing happened, although for the life of me I can't figure out how/why Vega and Balrog got into the act as well. Also, Ken's last name is Masters, but if I'm not mistaken, this is a direct result of a Street Fighter action figure line that came out a few years ago. The name Ken for a doll is already trademarked for Mattel's Barbie line (Ken being Barbie's infamous boyfriend) so whoever made the dolls (it may have been Hasbro, but I'm not sure) added Masters to make the distinction. As for the Shun-Goku-Satsu, I'm inclined to think that the move hits 14 weak points, then kills on the 15th. The whole "the more evil you are, the more damage it does" theory is nice, but it would render the move useless against certain characters...Sakura conceiveably, and theoretically post-killing intent Ryu. I don't think that Goutetsu would bother teaching a move that didn't work on everyone. Thanks for checking on Gen's illness Clay. I may have to fire up Alpha 2 myself... And not to get too off topic, Starscream is my third favorite after Soundwave and Optimus Prime. He was the original bastard, and you had to love him for it. I hated the way he got punk-killed in the movie, and it became that less interesting once he died. But I love the way he just carelessly tosses Megatron off the ship. "I still function." "Wanna bet?" Soundwave was far too cool to be an obdient lackey. He should have taken over the Decepticons. -Az Posted by Lantis on 09:25:2001 04:05 AM: quote: Originally posted by Shoto-ism™ I have some hard questions 1. what happened to the rest of the SF2 cast (except: Chun,ryu,Ken) that didn't make it into SF3. 2. In Q's ending he is chasing after some one, who? Why did he enter into the SF3 tourney? 3. How did gill abtain his power. 4. why are SF stroylines so weak. 1.-Most surely, they're still fighting in less-important leagues, fighting randomly, or have downright retired to seclusion. My guess is that E.Honda went back to the Sumo division and reafirm his position as great Yokozuna, Blanka lives happily ever after with his mother, Guile can finally live in peace after Bison's death (away from the Air Force and everything), Zangief went back to the pro wrestling circuit and continues to fight for the rebuilding of Russia (apparently, he hasn't suceeded yet ), and Dhalsim goes back to a peaceful life as Yoga master. As for the Grand Masters of Shadaloo, I can only see a bleak destiny for Balrog (boxer) and Vega (Spanish ninja). Sagat would have, most likely, finally come to terms with Ryu in their rivalry, and Bison...dead. All theories point out that Akuma did him in in Super Turbo with the Shun Goku Satsu. 2.-Like Q himself, the purpose is still unknown. Perhaps he's gathering fighting data for another organization (if this sounds kinda like the KOF "NESTS" storyline, perhaps it does ) 3.-Gill was created by a secret organization to represent a Mesiah-like entity that will lead the world into a new generation. Gill was created with the DNA of many world conquerors (from Genghis Kahn to Napoleon to Julius Casear), and thus, his world conquest and eternal power delusions. The organization is some kind of religious sect that envisions the coming of a new Mesiah every 2000 years or so that will create a new world order. By the way, Urien was supposed to be created to help Gill in his task, but ala Liquid Snake from Metal Gear Solid, he doesn't like the idea of being "second best". 4.-Mostly? Because Capcom has piss-poor story planning. They don't think about the future, they just make the games as they pop up in their minds, and then...they can make up a story. So, SFA 1 was planned to explain a couple of things before SF 2..and it did a good job at first, until Capcom made the Alpha sequels, and began to fall into a lot of mumbo-jumbo suggestions, until the total downfall of SFA 3. You see, that happens when Capcom doesn't make an adequate storyboard plan...they have to make up stories out of smoke, and there you have the results... Ultima: Waaaaaaah! Is that so? Does that mean I also have to disregard the "Super SF II Turbo school" drawing I also saw in the Bengus artbook? Posted by Ultima on 09:25:2001 05:18 AM: To Clay: [B]Ultima: First off, thanks for the correction about Q’s skeleton. I don’t play him often, but I must have made a mistake. Next, I haven’t ever been to any message boards at cammyfan, but I swear that I have seen some of the info that you posted somewhere else before, any ideas? Some of that information is very interesting and it does sound very accurate. Do you know the source? Nope. It's third hand information. First it was posted by Kyoguken master over on www.cammyfan about 2 months ago. In it, he quotes a friend named "Saiki" as a person who can read Japanese and who translated stuff for him. He's reporting all of that from memory. He posted it there, and then it was posted here on SRK. Since this thread was brought back up, and you said something that were almost identical to the original www.cammyfan.com post, I thought I'd re-post (I saved a copy) and see if you had anything to do with it. If you're looking for the source, I think you're gonna have to head over to www.cammyfan.com and post on their message board and ask. As for the info, I know a lot of it comes from the All About Capcom HIstory book (like the fact that Eliza and Jane are sisters). > Last, do you know if Mike from SF1 is the same person as Mike Bison? I’ve heard conflicting reports on this one and nobody has ever backed it up with some real information. No clue. From what I've heard, the Mike of SF1 and Mike Bison of SF2 are two different characters. To Lantis: There are some inaccuracies in your Gill explanation (at least compared to the version I know). Gill and Urien were genetically engineered, but not from past world conquerers. His body is supposed to contain the reincarnate soul of the organization's first leader, a soul that's supposed to be immortal. Gill was selected from a bunch of chosen candidates though - there are multiple beings within a generation who have the potential to house the leader's soul, and Gill was the one chosen in this generation. Urien was another potential candidate, but wasn't chosen, and he's resentful for it. And apparently, Alex is another possible choice. This is why Gill refers to Alex as one of his brethren in his 3S ending. I guess Gill "unlocks" the potential in Alex or something. Oh yeah: I don't think Gill is as nefarious as you make him sound. He wants to bring eutopia to the world, even if the means aren't all too noble. Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:25:2001 05:50 AM: Noembelu is T Hawk's sister? Ah, I was wondering what the relationship was. The SFA series IS cannon. You just have to note that some of the endings never happened. For example, Charlie's ending is obviously a JOKE. Ditto with E Honda's. Those are there to make you laugh (At least, I laughed at Charlie's. I mean, come on, did you SEE how ridiculous Bison looks by being both BOMBED and RIDDLED WITH MACHINE GUNS!? That's soooo corny it HAS to be a joke). Erm... what was I talking about, again? Oh yea, right. Well, anyway, a good portion of the SFA3 endings happened though not exactly in the way you see them (Vega never directly betrayed Bison, or else he wouldn't be a Shadowlaw lord in SF2). At least... assuming Kyokugen has his info correct from the books. Mike Bison. I hear that if you ask, both Capcom of Japan and USA will officially state that they are two different characters. However, I'm positive that in the past I heard they were one and the same. My guess is that Capcom of Japan decided to drop it to avoid being sued and all. I mean, LOOK at them. They look sooooooo similar (Well, SF2 and SF1. SFA M. Bison boxer doesn't look that much like either, really). They have the same fighting stance and if you look at Mike's head shot for SF1 and compare it to M. Bison (Boxer)'s head shot for SF2 (the first one), they are practically the same thing (with the latter having better graphics of course:P) Posted by AKUMA2000 on 09:25:2001 05:57 AM: No problem Clay, i'd rather hear something that's official & confirmed by capcom of japan than something that's speculation & doubt from capcom usa. Also, those two long pages Ultima posted were from shoryuken.com....I've seen those before in general discussion this past may/june/july (if i'm not mistaken), i don't remeber who started the topic. About the raging demon, i don't know or heard anything of teleporting the opponent to hell or anything. But yes it does attack the vital points of the body (head, face, chest, stomach, kidneys, knees, groin etc..) with a flurry of deadly elbow & palm strikes..... Posted by soujiroten on 09:25:2001 07:09 AM: If A3 is canon, how do you explain all the discrepancies between SF2 and A3? Stuff that indicates SF2 happens after A3: 1. Ryu still wears white headband in A3 2. Cammy still Shadowloo assassin 3. Chun Li still wears her old outfit in A and V-ism Stuff that indicates A3 happens after SF2: 1. Almost all endings have Bison dying and the Psycho Drive being destroyed. 2. Guile is still looking for Charlie, despite finding him in A3 3. Ryu has no Satsui no Hadou in SF2, but is awakened in A3 4. Gouki isn't pestering Ryu, he's just a hidden character. 5. Ryu has a Shin Shoryuken in A3. Heck, lots of people have 'better' supers in A3 than in SF2. This stuff has to be developed, and can't just be conveniently 'forgotten', *especially* with a move like the shinsho. There's a lot of stuff that doesn't work. You can fudge it all you want. If you can provide me a capcom history text that says that the SFA series is canon, please do so. There's just too many loopholes otherwise. The Alpha series is a 'what if?' scenario. An alternative storyline. Not canon. --SJ Posted by Azrael-sama on 09:25:2001 08:06 AM: quote: Originally posted by soujiroten Stuff that indicates A3 happens after SF2: 1. Almost all endings have Bison dying and the Psycho Drive being destroyed. 2. Guile is still looking for Charlie, despite finding him in A3 3. Ryu has no Satsui no Hadou in SF2, but is awakened in A3 4. Gouki isn't pestering Ryu, he's just a hidden character. 5. Ryu has a Shin Shoryuken in A3. Heck, lots of people have 'better' supers in A3 than in SF2. This stuff has to be developed, and can't just be conveniently 'forgotten', *especially* with a move like the shinsho. --SJ 1. Vega's body was rebuilt by scientists. He holds the SFII tournament to exact revenge against Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, Guile, etc. This would explain why SFZ Vega was a lot bigger and bulkier, while SF2 Vega was rather slim. 2. Charlie was killed in Z3. Guile was sent to retrieve Charlie, who had been sent after Vega. But Charlie is killed, and Guile fights in SF2 for revenge. 3. Ryu never had killing intent in SF2. The whole killing intent thing was created during the Zero series. Evil Ryu is a what-if character, not canon. At the end of Zero, Ryu resists the killing intent, and fights as himself in SF2. 4. Since Ryu resisted the killing intent, Gouki doesn't have *as* much interest in him. Gouki shows up in SF2 to murder Bison, which he does. 5. This shows that Zero is a newer series gameplay wise, but not in the story. You can't make a new SF game and limit your characters just because, timeline wise, they shouldn't know those moves yet. If you really wanted to be accurate, characters in Zero would never be able to air block, alpha counter, or use variable combos, and they'd only have one big super. Sure, you'd be more accurate story-wise, but you'd sacrifice gameplay for it, and I think most if not all SF gamers would give up solid story continuity for gameplay. This has already been said in this thread, but Capcom doesn't really think through their storylines and a lot of holes surface. The Zero series DOES happen, but some things within Zero don't. For instance, Charlie's ending does NOT happen. But Ryu's does. Zero is canon, but SF canon as a whole is far from Rock solid. Oh, and on the Mike ish - I'm fairly sure that Mike and M.Bison are the same character. Nothing I can concretely prove of course, but it only makes sense. Otherwise, you're introducing a new character in SFII whose first name just happens to start with M, and bears incredible resemblance to Mike from SF1. And then, the whole "What does the M stand for?" issue is not resolved. I do believe that M.Bison is Mike from SF1, given the last name Bison, and then having the whole name shortened to M.Bison. -Az Posted by CHAZumaru on 09:25:2001 09:17 AM: A friend of mine had a Japanese SFII book (maybe a mook ?) where you could read on M.BIson's page, in katakana: Ma-i-ku-ba-i-son and of course it's a reference to Mike Tyson, and of course they changed the names in the worldwide versions to prevent any lawsuit. Plus they could say the M. stood for Mister. And "Vega" looks spanish in a way. Soooooooooo... As of myself, I'm looking for a few explanations: Is Makoto related to anyone? Is she an anti-shoto just cos' of gameplay or is there any scenaristic reason ? If Ryu becomes a scholar of Oro, it should mean Oro is a truely (120 years old) great master; then why didn't Gouki fight him ? And how did Oro loose his arm ? And wtf is Gouki doing in the depths of the pacific in his 3s ending? Admit it, we don't really know a shit about Q, except that he is a parody of the good ol' Tekkaman, and that he's for some reason searched by the FBI. Yet do we know why HE is fighting people ? Shouldn't he try to avoid any show up, as he's hiding all the time? ans... How the hell can Yun feature in SFZ3 upper for GBA, whereas he's supposed to be either Gen's grandson, or anyway not even being born (or only a baby) when the action of SFZ3 happens ? this indeed proves that Cap DOESN'T give a fuck about their storyline. Posted by columbo on 09:25:2001 09:55 AM: Just to clear up any confusion as to where the source of this information came from, a few months back (before the post at cammyfan.com) "Saiki" posted this at the CVS board at gamefaqs.com. I'm not sure if the thread is still there, but it's over 600 messages long and full of accurate facts. Posted by FistsofFury on 09:25:2001 02:11 PM: Yeah...here's my take on the Yun thing In : Ryu is in between 32-36 in the SFIII..there's probably about 8 years between SFII and SFIII (I think Ryu is like 24 in SFII).I think Ryu is between 18-20 in Alpha. Yun is in his late teen is SFIII....18-20 I ponder. 20-8=12 HE'S 12 AT LEAST IN SFII! 12-4=8 HE'S 8 IN ALPHA!! Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:25:2001 03:09 PM: Alpha Alpha 3 is only 3 years before SF2, since Cammy is 19 in SF2 and 16 in SFA3 (something every doll and cammyfan SHOULD know but most do not for some stupid reason....). So Yun would be about 9 to 10 years old... but that's still ridiculous, LOL. Really, SFA3 for GBA is being produced and ported by Crawfish, not Capcom, though Capcom did have to give the okay to include those characters. Guess we'll have to see if Yun has a storyline in SFA3, though I doubt he will... Posted by soujiroten on 09:25:2001 04:23 PM: quote: 1. Vega's body was rebuilt by scientists. He holds the SFII tournament to exact revenge against Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, Guile, etc. This would explain why SFZ Vega was a lot bigger and bulkier, while SF2 Vega was rather slim. This is something of a cop-out. You can't say this for sure. I asked for hard evidence, not conjectures. I could say that Sagat went to Jenny Craig and lost a bunch of muscles between Z3 and ST. quote: 2. Charlie was killed in Z3. Guile was sent to retrieve Charlie, who had been sent after Vega. But Charlie is killed, and Guile fights in SF2 for revenge. Why didn't Guile bring Charlie back in Z3 then? quote: 3. Ryu never had killing intent in SF2. The whole killing intent thing was created during the Zero series. Evil Ryu is a what-if character, not canon. At the end of Zero, Ryu resists the killing intent, and fights as himself in SF2. Here's where your analysis breaks down. You can't say that this is non-canon but the rest of Z3 is. There is no basis for it. You can't just ignore part of the story and accept the rest. It's not logical, and it makes no sense. quote: 4. Since Ryu resisted the killing intent, Gouki doesn't have *as* much interest in him. Gouki shows up in SF2 to murder Bison, which he does. Then how come you don't always fight Gouki at the end of ST? quote: 5. This shows that Zero is a newer series gameplay wise, but not in the story. You can't make a new SF game and limit your characters just because, timeline wise, they shouldn't know those moves yet. If you really wanted to be accurate, characters in Zero would never be able to air block, alpha counter, or use variable combos, and they'd only have one big super. Sure, you'd be more accurate story-wise, but you'd sacrifice gameplay for it, and I think most if not all SF gamers would give up solid story continuity for gameplay. I also don't see how this can happen, especially after the thing about Bison being rebuilt by scientists. You should be able to explain everything if the story is continuous, but (let's face it) it's not. The only real continuous storyline is SF1, SF2, SF3. Everything else is not canon, and takes place as a 'what if?' scenario. That explains a lot of the discrepancies better than attempting to take only parts of something that *do* work, and ignoring parts that *don't* work. In essence, what you're saying is to ignore the evidence to the contrary, ignore offending parts of the Z3 story that don't mesh correctly, and everything will work fine. Um... that sounds awfully to me... if we always ignored that which pokes holes in our arguments, we'd never be wrong. Besides, the whole age discrepancy thing is pretty big too. Read that Yun's age post. --SJ Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:25:2001 05:11 PM: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Vega's body was rebuilt by scientists. He holds the SFII tournament to exact revenge against Ryu, Ken, Chun-Li, Guile, etc. This would explain why SFZ Vega was a lot bigger and bulkier, while SF2 Vega was rather slim. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "This is something of a cop-out. You can't say this for sure. I asked for hard evidence, not conjectures. I could say that Sagat went to Jenny Craig and lost a bunch of muscles between Z3 and ST. " Blame Capcom for that. But that's what the official Capcom books in Japan say and Capcom will tell you if you ask them so it's cannon. There's a reason why in Z3, Bison keeps yabbering about how he can never die. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. Charlie was killed in Z3. Guile was sent to retrieve Charlie, who had been sent after Vega. But Charlie is killed, and Guile fights in SF2 for revenge. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Why didn't Guile bring Charlie back in Z3 then? " It's in Guile's ending in Z3. He found Charlie at Shadowlaw's base then Charlie died saving Guile's life. He TRIED to bring him back but failed. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. Ryu never had killing intent in SF2. The whole killing intent thing was created during the Zero series. Evil Ryu is a what-if character, not canon. At the end of Zero, Ryu resists the killing intent, and fights as himself in SF2. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Here's where your analysis breaks down. You can't say that this is non-canon but the rest of Z3 is. There is no basis for it. You can't just ignore part of the story and accept the rest. It's not logical, and it makes no sense. " Again, blame Capcom. They will tell you this themselves if you ask them. There ARE parts of Z3 that are completely noncannon (E Honda's ending, Charlie's ending, Vega and Balrog betraying M. Bison directly, etc). This is one of them. The official books in Japan specifically state which endings of Z3 happened and which didn't. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. Since Ryu resisted the killing intent, Gouki doesn't have *as* much interest in him. Gouki shows up in SF2 to murder Bison, which he does. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Then how come you don't always fight Gouki at the end of ST? " Because then it wouldn't be a neato secret? Just because it's a secret match doesn't mean in the actual storyline it didn't happen. That's like saying "How come it's possible to beat Mortal Kombat with someone besides Liu Kang when the MK2 storyline says Liu Kang won the tournament?" That's like saying "How come it's possible for Mature and Vice to live in King of Fighters by beating the game with a different team" or "How come it's possible to beat Goenitz with the New Faces Team." quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. This shows that Zero is a newer series gameplay wise, but not in the story. You can't make a new SF game and limit your characters just because, timeline wise, they shouldn't know those moves yet. If you really wanted to be accurate, characters in Zero would never be able to air block, alpha counter, or use variable combos, and they'd only have one big super. Sure, you'd be more accurate story-wise, but you'd sacrifice gameplay for it, and I think most if not all SF gamers would give up solid story continuity for gameplay. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I also don't see how this can happen, especially after the thing about Bison being rebuilt by scientists. You should be able to explain everything if the story is continuous, but (let's face it) it's not. The only real continuous storyline is SF1, SF2, SF3. Everything else is not canon, and takes place as a 'what if?' scenario. That explains a lot of the discrepancies better than attempting to take only parts of something that *do* work, and ignoring parts that *don't* work. " Maybe it does, but *enters Homey da Clown impression* Capcom don't play that. There's a reason lots of people criticize Capcom for doing stuff like this. Not all of SFA3 takes place as what-if. (For example, I know for a fact that variations on Cammy's and Vega's endings happen for example. Also it's important to note that in Japan, M. Bison tells Cammy that she once worked for him, not that they were lovers.) If you really want to know what happened and what didn't, you'll have to see the official info that Capcom themselves released. The problem is, you really can't, because it's in Japanese. Unless you can read Japanese, too. "In essence, what you're saying is to ignore the evidence to the contrary, ignore offending parts of the Z3 story that don't mesh correctly, and everything will work fine. " Capcom is the one ignoring offending parts of the Z3 storyline. Read the books. Oh wait, you can't, because they're in Japanese. ('All About' books I believe are always verified by the company, just like Perfect Works books for RPGs) "Um... that sounds awfully to me... if we always ignored that which pokes holes in our arguments, we'd never be wrong. " Again, why do you think everyone is so critical of Capcom's storylines? They'll literally bend what's cannon yesterday and change it to fit today on a whim. Like how Sagat is now no longer one of the Shadowlaw lords in later versions of SF2 in Japan. Or... more hilariously, how both Capcom of Japan and USA will now tell you that Balrog and Mike (Or M. Bison and Mike) are not one and the same person now, just to avoid law suits. "Besides, the whole age discrepancy thing is pretty big too. Read that Yun's age post. " Until SFA3 for the GBA comes out and shows that Yun has an actual storyline, Yun being in SFA3 is nothing more than bonus noncannon omake. Again going back to that whole "Capcom ignores aspects of their plotline as they see fit" thing. There is a TON of info in Japan that you'll never be able to access, yourself, unless you can speak Japanese. The USA just doesn't seem to ever market the official books for anything. No Xenogears Perfect Works, no Saga Frontier 2 Perfect Works, no Perfect Works for any of the many RPGs that made it to the states, no All About Capcom or All About SNK to tell which endings happened and which didn't... you'd be AMAZED at the incredible OUT OF GAME information out there that the companies themselves have set up to be cannon (such as the fact that in SFA3, there really is one doll for each month and each of them have names, too). Posted by Clay on 09:25:2001 05:55 PM: A lot has been said while I was away so I’ll just add some misc. comments. Ultima: Thanks for the information. I’m going to have to find this guy and talk to him, since he seems to know what he is talking about. Maybe he can help validate some of my other theories. Also, I agree with your Gill analysis. Gill isn’t evil; he just has a different way of attaining his goals. The goal of his organization is to create a utopian society by the year 2200 AD (this date was set for some reason thousands of years ago). Gill alludes to the fact that he may take actions into his own hands and speed up the process. One of his victory quotes states that 200 years is too long, implying that he doesn’t want to wait 200 more years to achieve a perfect society. Alex probably does have some hidden potential. His past is not ever explained (they only say that he ran away from his family when he was a teenager or child) so it is possible that he escaped from Gill’s organization. Also, when Gill touches Alex, I think he also gives him some information. I’m under the impression that Gill balances his mind and emotions so that Alex is able to understand what he is talking about. Gill says that he has taken something away, but that there is now more there (something like that). Alex seems to calm down when this happens and does not focus on his rage or anger anymore. Alex used to think of Gill as evil, but now I think that he has a better understanding of both sides of the story. Remember, Gill’s theme is that he is able to unite opposites to create a perfect union. Columbo: Thanks for the site! I think I remember seeing that before, but I almost never visit gamefaqs. Az: Thanks for essentially answering for me. I agree with your answers and I’ll try to expand upon them later. Also this is off topic, but yeah, I love so many of the old transformers. About Starscream getting killed, he does make a few more appearances. In the Beast Wars story his “spark” (soul?) returns and inhabits Waspinator’s body. They said that his spark was immortal and could never be destroyed. Also, in one of the continuities (can’t remember if it was the cartoon, or the comic adaptation) his ghost returns, and he gets a new body. FistsofFury: Your ages are pretty accurate. However, Yun’s age in the GBA game will not matter. This game won’t be canon in the storyline, even if they make a story for him. Reasons: - It’s made for as a hand-held exclusive. If anything important were to come of this game, it would have been made on a larger scale. It’s an update of A3 with a few new characters thrown in to attract more people. - It’s not made by Capcom. Somebody mentioned that it was being ported over by Crawfish. Any changes made will not be official because Capcom didn’t make them. It’s the same with the EX series. CHAZ: Makoto’s father (Masaru) started a fighting dojo, but it wasn’t very well respected. After his death, Makoto goes off to fight other great warriors and bring respect and fame to the dojo, in honor of her father. Oro previously led a hermit’s life, so Gouki may not have known that he existed. Oro didn’t lose his arm; he placed a magical seal upon it to level the playing field. He is too powerful for most people, so as a handicap, he sealed one arm. He is only able to use both arms during mealtime, and possibly for other various tasks. He hopes that Ryu will be strong enough to force him to use both his arms. Gouki is pushing himself to do things that are literally impossible. He is training. This shows the true depths of his power. For the record, Oro and Gill may also be as powerful as Gouki (if not more). As of now Gouki is the top Street Fighter. It won’t matter how old Yun is, its just fan-service. -Clay Posted by Clay on 09:25:2001 06:21 PM: It’s good to see more new blood in this thread (TiamatRoar, soujiroten). To SJ: I’ll present my side of the argument to you. You may not agree with it, but at least you’ll know where I’m coming from. >the Alpha series' story isn't canon. In fact, none of that stuff is canon except what happened in SF1, SF2 and SF3. The animes and movies are unofficial. The Alpha storylines are also unofficial. Not true, Capcom has said that the Alpha series is canon. Others seem to agree. I never used anime or movies for any evidence. I am aware that they are unofficial, and have always referred to them as so. I usually disagree with their information anyway. >Alpha's another series that's like 'What if?'. If they were, there would be so many discrepancies it wouldn't be funny. In any fighting game, there are endings that are “What if?” scenarios. Some characters have opposite goals and it would be impossible for both to exist. You have to figure out what has precedence to know what actually happens. >Capcom makes fighting games, not RPGs. The stories surrounding these characters doesn't matter anywhere near as much as whether you can crouch cancel for an infinite on the 1p side using the j.strong. Agreed. Actually, I have said this too (look at my response to Shoto-ism on page two). Anyway, a lot of people like the game to have a story because it makes it more interesting for the casual gamer, and it adds replay value to the one player game. Most importantly, story adds depth to the game overall because it is fun. Most KoF players will tell you that they love the story to the game and that it is an important part of it. Besides, if nobody cared about the story, then this thread wouldn’t exist. Lantis is totally correct about Capcom’s ineptness towards the story. They need to know where they are going before they start making things up. Hopefully, this will improve. That said, I do still enjoy the SF universe and hope that Capcom will continue to make more SF games in the future. -Clay Posted by soujiroten on 09:25:2001 06:26 PM: Ok, I've heard about this repeatedly. You're saying japanese capcom books say the Zero timeline is canon. Give me book names, please. I'll look them up myself. Yes, I can read Japanese. That's why I'm wondering why you guys cling to this notion that the Zero timeline is canon. --SJ Edit: PS. It's 'Canon', not 'Cannon'... The Cannons are a pair of twins who run this awesome site. Posted by Clay on 09:25:2001 07:04 PM: Another reply to SJ: >1. Ryu still wears white headband in A3 2. Cammy still Shadowloo assassin 3. Chun Li still wears her old outfit in A and V-ism 1. Capcom screwed up. The headband was supposed to be red, but they neglected to change the sprite. 2. This is correct. She still works for Shadoloo in A3. 3. This is what she is supposed to wear. X-ism is supposed to play like ST (one super, no air block) so they threw in her other costume as fan-service. >1. Almost all endings have Bison dying and the Psycho Drive being destroyed. 2. Guile is still looking for Charlie, despite finding him in A3 3. Ryu has no Satsui no Hadou in SF2, but is awakened in A3 4. Gouki isn't pestering Ryu, he's just a hidden character. 5. Ryu has a Shin Shoryuken in A3. Heck, lots of people have 'better' supers in A3 than in SF2. This stuff has to be developed, and can't just be conveniently 'forgotten', *especially* with a move like the shinsho. 1. Vega does die in A3, but not everybody kills him. This is just a matter of finding out which endings have precedence, which endings happened (sans Vega), and which endings are totally false. Ryu (with help from Ken, Sakura, and Sagat) defeats Vega. Vega and Charlie (Nash) are then killed in the explosion of Vega’s base (and Psycho Drive). 2. Nash is dead during SF2. Guile wants revenge. Guile is working outside of the authority of the US military. His reasons for being in the second World Warrior’s Tournament are personal. 3. In A3, Ryu fights off Vega’s attempts to corrupt him. He also chooses not to use the killing intent because he doesn’t wish to hurt others. He fights solely to push himself beyond his limits and become the best that he can be, as well as to find his purpose in life. Ryu never uses the Killing Intent in SF2 and SF3 so it is never an issue. Az is right, and I have said this before, “Evil” Ryu is a “What if?” character. Capcom has been very distinct about keeping “Evil” Ryu out of the storyline. If you want to know why he is in the game, check out one of my earlier posts on page one. PS Evil Ryu’s purpose is to show what would happen to a warrior as intense as Ryu if one didn’t posses the virtuous spirit that Ryu has (Gouki). Most people that dedicated to fighting would have chosen to use the Killing Intent. 4. I’m not sure if Gouki was invited to the tournament, however, he does show up to prove that he is the strongest Street Fighter and that his style of Ansatsu-ken is more powerful than Vega’s Psycho Power. Az: It’s not that Gouki isn’t interested in Ryu; it’s just that Ryu has refused to use the killing arts. Ryu still trains to find his true power, and will one day confront Gouki when he is ready. Gouki eagerly awaits this day so that he can put himself up against the ultimate test. 5. Gameplay and storyline are two separate entities in this sence. Ryu’s moves vary from game to game, but that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have certain techniques in certain parts of the storyline. Imo, Capcom did a good job on Ryu’s moves in Alpha 3. In A3 Ryu’s Metsu and Shin Shoryu-ken are far, far weaker than they are in SF3. Just because Ryu can’t use these moves in the SF2 game, doesn’t mean that he forgot them in the storyline. According to you then, Ryu must be getting worse at controlling his ki, since FB’s are weaker overall in the SF3 series. It’s not that Ryu’s worse at performing Hadou-kens, it’s just that they toned them down to fit the fighting engine better. So in SF3 the Hadou-ken is worse, but in the storyline Ryu is even better at controlling his ki (and it is more powerful). -Clay Posted by Clay on 09:25:2001 07:13 PM: SJ: Sorry, I didn't see your last post, so I'll tell you now. The book is titled All About Capcom (something like this) and it covers almost all of the games made by Capcom beginning in the early 80's and up till the year 2000. It has photos of Capcom artwork and ton's of information. Capcom has stated that this book's information is official. It is in japanese only and kind of hard to find , but it is cool that you can read japanese. Let me know if you can get a copy of it. PS I have been spelling it "canon" the whole time, but others should also remember this. Also, I hope that none of my previous posts have sounded argumentative, SJ. I'm just posting my side of the argument. I appreciate the replies and keep postin'. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:25:2001 08:54 PM: All about Capcom was for sale at Otakon this year :P I thumbed through it for a bit. Wow, Juni and Juli's Japanese endings in SFA3 have blood in them for Juni and Juli's 'in pain' shot Oo That was interesting. But yea, All About Capcom should have the information, I believe. ^^ Posted by FistsofFury on 09:25:2001 08:55 PM: Re: Alpha quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Alpha 3 is only 3 years before SF2, since Cammy is 19 in SF2 and 16 in SFA3 (something every doll and cammyfan SHOULD know but most do not for some stupid reason....). So Yun would be about 9 to 10 years old... but that's still ridiculous, LOL. Really, SFA3 for GBA is being produced and ported by Crawfish, not Capcom, though Capcom did have to give the okay to include those characters. Guess we'll have to see if Yun has a storyline in SFA3, though I doubt he will... Ah thanks for the correction..I knew it was going to be off...but just to show the range of age....it's crazy It seems like Yun, Athena, and Kensou are trapped in a vacuum that pauses the passage of time... Posted by FistsofFury on 09:25:2001 09:05 PM: About the topic of if storyline is important..... I think it is...it drives the game....It drives characters....their personalities tie in with the storyline...you just wanna know what these characters are fighting for....right? I myself think story is important to fighitng games....but Capcom overlooks it so much, it gets annoying At least KOF tries....they do a good job too Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:25:2001 09:20 PM: I'm a casual player, so fighting game storylines weigh rather heavily for me. It miiiiight be needless to say, but I haven't brought a fighting game in a long time... (Last I brought was SFA3. Say what you will about how loopholian the storyline is, but in my humble opinion, at least it was interesting unlike many of the latest fighting game storylines as far as I can tell. Besides, seeing Charlie bomb Bison then riddle him with machine gun fire was priceless) Posted by Azrael-sama on 09:26:2001 12:39 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Besides, seeing Charlie bomb Bison then riddle him with machine gun fire was priceless) All that ending needed was Charlie throwing the kitchen sink at Vega, and I would dub it "Greatest Ending EVER." Anyway, story is sort of important to the game. I mean, gameplay yeah, first and foremost. But it is fun to go through the game with all the characters and piece together the story. I was sort of disappointed that Capcom didn't come up with a story for CvS...it would have been interesting to have individual endings and see how the SF'ers and KoF'ers interacted. As for Zero, Clay said it best - all fighting games have "What If" scenarios. Killer Instinct 2 had 2-3 PER CHARACTER. You can beat SF2 with Fei Long, but that doesn't mean that Fei Long is the ulimate champion, and has surpassed Ryu in terms of potential. It's just a "what if" within the game. Same thing with Zero - you can beat it with Charlie, and he lives in the ending, but that's a what-if within the game that doesn't discredit the game as a whole. Anytime a fighting game sequel is made, usually, some explanation is given as to what did and didn't happen from the first game. It's really hard in SF's case because from SF2, we go backwards in time to Zero, and then jump to SF3 where very little to nothing is revealed about the characters and story. Plus, there's the long standing fact that Capcom is pretty crappy when it comes to canon. So we have to piece together what we can. Yeah, Gouki didn't totally lose interest in Ryu. Just kind of backed off to allow Ryu to progress to the point where he would become a worthy opponent. And we know Gouki killed Vega...but any idea why exactly? I have two ideas - Vega is still a formidable fighter, and Gouki is always looking for that ultimate challenge. In SFA, Gouki did challenge Vega as his last boss, asking if he was the one who could defeat him. My other idea is that Gouki is still relying on Ryu for the challenge, and he didn't want Vega getting in the way again. OT - I never really followed Beast Wars, or any of the newer stuff (I caught a few episodes of Robots in Disguise, and I nearly wept before turning the TV off) but if Starscream makes a return, I may have to start watching some episodes. -Az Posted by Clay on 09:26:2001 06:01 AM: Azrael-sama: I think that Gouki challenges Vega in order to assert the dominance his Ansatsu-ken fighting style. Even though they don't actually meet in A3 there is a conversation between the two that sheds a little light on the subject. Vega scoffs at the "supreme master of the fist" while Gouki chastises Vega and states that he isn't a true warrior because he doesn't rely on his fists. Essentially, Gouki implies that Vega is a sloppy fighter and relies on his PK abilities too much which will lead to his downfall. It's Gouki's fist vs. Vega's psychic abilities and we all know who comes out on top. Gouki is victorious and displays his superiority over Vega. I don't think that Gouki fights Vega in order to protect Ryu, because if Ryu is truly a worthy challenger, then he will overcome all of the obstacles in front of him on his own. If Ryu is great enough to challenge Gouki, then he won't need Gouki's help in defeating Vega. It is likely that Ryu has already defeated Vega before Gouki even shows up. OT: I don't think that Starscream shows up in this series (though I wish he did). Yes, Robots in Disguise (Car Robots in Japan) is merely a shadow of this once great cartoon. However, if you’re not familiar with Scourge (the dark Optimus wannabe), then check him out and let me know what you think. Also, thanks for backing me up on the "What if?" example that I gave. I'm very pleased with the way that this thread has progressed, and I hope that people keep on posting their questions and thoughts on this subject. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:26:2001 02:54 PM: Anyone by any chance know of any validity or extra details about the whole "Aprile's brother went to see Rose about her location" thing? ^^; Only connection I can find right now is that Aprile's Italian and so is Rose but that's a pretty biiiiiiig stress. Goooo random pointlessness? Posted by RagingAkuma on 09:27:2001 01:00 AM: So if Ryu defated Sagat in SF using a more lethal form of the Dragon Punch, is this what sparked Akuma's interest in him? Posted by Clay on 09:27:2001 06:27 AM: Tiamat: It might not be that big of a stretch. Rose is a powerful psychic, so she may be somewhat famous. Capcom never really goes into any detail about her life outside of her tracking down Vega. If Rose possesses even the smallest level of celebrity status, then it could make sense for Aprile's brother to talk to her (Rose). It could also just be a coincidence that Rose talked to Aprile's brother. Rose may have just known where to be at the right time. I think that Rose would want to help Aprile and her brother in this situation because they share a common enemy. I don't have any sources for this, because it exists outside of any SF game. Even if this tidbit of info ends up being false, it has little effect on the SF universe as a whole. That said, I think that it does sound in character for Rose to help out the two siblings. RagingAkuma: Gouki knew that Gouken had trained two students, and finding out that one of them had become the champion of the World Warrior's Tournament probably piqued his curiosity. Oddly enough, it was Ryu who tracks down Gouki first (although I'm sure that Gouki was not only expecting for this to happen, but waiting for this day with full knowledge of what will result of this). Ryu seeks out Gouki to avenge the death of his master. They fight each other on Goukentou island and Ryu puts up a pretty good fight. It is at this point that Gouki tells Ryu to quit holding back and to embrace the killing intent. After this, Gouki destroys the island and disappears. I don't think that Ryu and Gouki have ever had an official fight since then. It is possible that they meet again in the second tournament (ST), but I don't think that they hold a match together because it seems like Gouki was only there to put an end to the miserable wretch Vega. I don't think that they fight each other during the SF3 series, because they always seem to be in different parts of the world. If their paths did cross however, I would imagine that any fights between them would be akin to a sparring match. Each would probably try to guage the other's progress. Gouki still awaits the ultimate challenge and I'm sure that he'll seek out Ryu once again when they are both ready for it. Until then, they will keep on training rigorously. -Clay Posted by Clay on 09:27:2001 07:14 AM: Quick question: Does anybody else hope that Twelve will eventually get the chance to slaughter Necro? It's nothing personal, but I just hate that apendage-stretching punk (okay, so it is personal, sue me). Posted by CHAZumaru on 09:27:2001 09:37 AM: I think 12 will slaughter Necro's girlfriend. BTW why is Gouki called Akuma in the beautikul Taco belled country of yours ? And why did I suddenly stop thinking about CvS2 and can't just wait for this ? PIC : help me I'm going to lose 400 $ again ^_^ Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:27:2001 03:33 PM: Oh yea, that's right... I imagine that if he did know about Rose at all... Yea, I believe it would have been in character for Rose to have done so too with the common enemy thing. I always had this feeling that there was an actual Rose and Doll connection though... since Rose and Bison supposedly share the same soul, Bison's 'clones' (even if the dolls aren't direct clones) are all female and Bison apparently seemed to have wanted his next body to be thus (Oo), Aprile's brother seeing Rose, and the fact that Rose actually mocks Juni and Juli as inferior practically after defeating them and is practically insulted that Bison would bother sicking them on her... not that any of it really matters when looking towards the future though since pretty much Rose's saga and importance ended with SFA3 as did the dolls besides Cammy, and the clincher of Shadowlaw going down after SF2 and Bison's death pretty much... well, clinches things. :P If there's an SF4, I wonder what the storyline would be like... I really can't think of many elements that could return from previous SFs after SF3 already threw so much of the old storyline to the winds (There are very very very few connections to what happened in previous SFs for the SFIII storyline from what I see, with the exception of Ryu and Ken (then later on Chun) of course, who weren't even supposed to be in the game at first) Posted by AKUMA2000 on 09:27:2001 03:38 PM: quote: CHAZumaru:why is Gouki called Akuma in the beautikul Taco belled country of yours ? He's called Gouki is japan, Akuma in the states...but it doesn't really matter since both names mean the same thing, "strong demon" (has nothing to do with demon possession)...Gouken's name means "strong fist". quote: FistsofFury:About the topic of if storyline is important..... I think it is...it drives the game....It drives characters....their personalities tie in with the storyline...you just wanna know what these characters are fighting for....right? I agree about the storylines.....When i get RE:CVX i'm gonna play the entire series in order. RE RE3:Nemesis- 24hrs before RE2 (up until jill gets sick, carlos takes over) RE2 RE3:Nemesis 24hrs after RE2 (carlos heals jill, she takes back over) RE:CVX Posted by Clay on 09:27:2001 04:25 PM: CHAZ: I use Gouki because it is the Japanese (original) name for this character. I usually refer to most of the characters by their Japanese names because I think that it would be confusing to use the American names and the Japanese storyline. It just wouldn't make any sense. It would be all to easy for people to get confused about Vega, M. Bison, and Balrog, which is why I usually put their American name in parenthesis. I think that CAP USA changed Gouki's name because it just sounds better in the american tounge. Also, the name Akuma seems to be a little bit more evil or villainous than Gouki, and that is exactly the way the CAP USA (incorrectly) portrays him. Posted by Clay on 09:27:2001 05:05 PM: Tiamat: About SF4 (if we ever get one), I could see this as a nice opportunity to tie up some loose ends, end part of the SF saga, and begin the story's next chapter. This could be the end for some characters in the sense that some people are reaching super-human levels and that they will be beyond the abilities of the other characters. In SF3, its obvious that Ryu, Gouki, Oro, and Gill are heads and shoulders above the competition. Alex could possibly be related to Gill, so he may have some potential too. I would use SF4 as a chance to bring back some favorites for a last hurrah. They could introduce a decent amount of new characters, some that may return in the future, and others that may just be one-shots. If Ryu hasn't ended his rivalry with Sagat yet, this is the perfect time to do it. Sagat could hold the fourth SF tournament in order to finish things with Ryu. This game would be like SF2 and not like Alpha, it would be an actual tournament. Any updates of the game could either expand upon what happened in the tournament or show what happens after the tournament. The cast of characters for this game will focus on fighters, and stray from the some of the supernatural fighters like Gill, Urien, and Twelve (although, I could see Oro in this game, observing Ryu's progress) that SF3 uses. Adon could make a return, and maybe Capcom will have him finally catch up to Gouki. I would love to see what would happen between these two, although an all-out fight would be one-sided. Alex, Makoto, and Dudley would fit into the story well because they are all focused on the fight. Gen should probably be dead by now, but the Lee twins could be in this game. Any other characters (Sakura, Guy, Chun Li) put into this game should have a reason to be in the actual tournament, and not some underlying motive (like world domination). Keep it down to earth, and make it a homage to what the original SF was, just a fighting tournament. I wouldn't throw anything crazy into this one because their will be plenty of time for that in any future SF games. Last, I kind of see this as Ken's last game. Realistically, he won't be able to keep up Ryu in the future and it would be a stretch to keep them as rivals. I don't know if Capcom actually has the guts to take Ken out of future games, but it would make sense if they did. I don't want to get too far into this right now, but will keep posting about it later. I wonder what other people would like to see. There are other paths that a fourth SF could take, but this would be nice for the fans to have some closure on the story (for once). Most likely, SF4 could be a totally original story like SF3 was (that's not necessarily a bad thing). However, I would like to see Sagat and Ryu finally end things. Their last fight would be a classic. Each could go all out (how much would Ryu hold back? Would he use the Killing Intent? I doubt that, but who knows? In Sagat's mind, is this a fight to the death?) and each of them now has the proper mind set. Ryu is focused on his goal and Sagat is no longer clouded by his rage. This fight would be a fantastic ending to the first part of the SF saga. -Clay Posted by CHAZumaru on 09:27:2001 05:22 PM: CLAY: I too use japanese names cos' I play on jap versions, what I wonder is what was the need to change his name to Akuma ? There's no lawsuit fear like for the Bison stuff... Posted by FistsofFury on 09:27:2001 07:38 PM: Yes, I think Twelve should eventually kill/beat the hell out of Necro. Tweleve is a more advanced version, and Necro is just obsolete. I think you're right about Ken Clay. Ken's priorities are different, he has a wife, a son, and a business to run. While Ryu is still focused on the fight and training. If it continues like this, Ryu will surpass Ken (If he hasn't already)..he'll be MILES ahead of him come SFIV I think. Posted by AKUMA2000 on 09:27:2001 07:53 PM: quote: FistsofFury:I think you're right about Ken Clay. Ken's priorities are different, he has a wife, a son, and a business to run. While Ryu is still focused on the fight and training. If it continues like this, Ryu will surpass Ken (If he hasn't already)..he'll be MILES ahead of him come SFIV I think I think Ken's son Mel should take his place in SF4, it'll be cool to see Mel & Ryu fight. Posted by RagingAkuma on 09:27:2001 11:57 PM: I donno Clay I'd like to see a SF4 with all the pervious characters who are still living in the storyline... From SF through to SF3. Plus a few secret characters that are dead storyline wise, such Goutetsu or Gouken. I'd also like to see Guile's glitch throw incorporated as his Max Level Super, but with a faint Charlie silhouette in the background actually thrwing the opponent whil Guile performs his throw animation on nothing. The damage would only be 25% at best but I think it wuld loo cool, to counter it you'd have to attack Charlies faint silhouette not Guile. Have Ryu's Deijin Hadouken as another Max Super attack, and Ken could have a new Super Fireball and a Max level Dragon Punch, maybe a Shinryuken tha travels. Posted by FistsofFury on 09:28:2001 02:19 AM: I just checked my SF2 manual...these are the birthdates: Ryu: 7-21-1964 Ken: 2-14-1965 Chun-Li: 3-1-1968 Sagat: 7-2-1955 Vega: 1-27-1967 Posted by RagingAkuma on 09:28:2001 02:38 AM: ken born on valentines day... Don't surprise me. Posted by Azrael-sama on 09:28:2001 03:35 AM: I too would like to see SF4. Actually, before that, I'd like to see another Zero type game, to take place before SF3 yet after SF2. I think it's needed to tie up all the loose ends that Capcom created by throwing the SF storyline to the winds in SF3. I think that a lot of the Zero characters (at least, the ones who actually have a reason to fight) should be in it, and use the opportunity to explain why some of the SF2 guys didn't make it to SF3, and introduce some SF3 guys. And then, I think Clay had the best idea for SF4 (awesome man). I would actually like to see Ryu and Oro elevated to boss status. You can keep Ryu playable, or make him unplayable, but replace him with a valid shoto, like maybe a developed Sakura or a new character. Also, perhaps keep Gouki out of this one, say he's off training or just watching. SF4 should be the last hurrah for most of the SFII cast...SF5 should be a mix of the super characters (Ryu at this point, Gouki, Urien, Gill, Oro), plus SF3 and 4, plus new 5 characters. -Az Posted by Clay on 09:28:2001 06:45 AM: CHAZ: I gave a few suggestions on the name change in my earlier post. That’s all I can really think of because, like you said, there is no real reason for it. I think that CAP USA thought that it sounded cooler. It does fit in better with their version of the character. FistsofFury: Glad to see that we agree about Twelve. I just don’t think that he gets enough respect. Also, as far as I’m concerned, there already is a considerable gap between Ryu and Ken. 3rd strike does a pretty good job of finishing the rivalry. Ryu travels across America to find Ken and then defeats him. This fight, for all intensive purposes, should signal that Ryu has surpassed Ken and is ready to go onto new challenges. Not only does Ryu win, but he summarizes their past saying that even though Ken may think that he is better, Ryu “has the better win record”. Ryu pretty much eliminates any questioning as to who is the dominant fighter. This doesn’t mean that Ken should rot away, but Ryu has far more potential due to his dedication and strict training regimen. What people seem to forget is that Ryu is holding back He has knowledge of the Killing Intent, and is able to perform the true ansatsu-ken techniques. If Ryu were to use everything at his disposal, he could probably obliterate any opponent (exceptions made for Gouki, Oro, etc…). Of course, it is against Ryu’s philosophy to use these deadly techniques, but I’m just explaining that the separation between Ryu and Ken is larger than most think. FoF, those ages are official, according to SF2, but now that the Alpha storyline has replaced most of the SF2 games, who knows if Capcom has decided to change their ages. They have never really released any information on most of the characters ages ever again. I have a feeling that they might not be that accurate any longer (Ryu just does not look like he’s in his mid-20’s in the Alpha storyline). Also, when you list that birthday for Vega, you are referring to the clawed one, Balrog. Vega’s (Psycho power) birth date is listed as unknown. I’m sure that you know this; I’m just trying to avoid confusion for anybody else. RagingAkuma: Some of your ideas are pretty cool, and I like your explanation of the throw glitch (it’s very creative). How would you create a storyline that would attract all of the other fighters? There are so many people and they all have different reasons for fighting in the previous games. I don’t know why they would all be at the same place at the same time. -Clay Posted by Clay on 09:28:2001 07:07 AM: Az: Thanks. I think that you seem to have a pretty good grasp of where I am going with this. I think that it is time for Capcom to let go of some of the familiar characters, and explore the possibilities that they have been leading up to and hinting at. In order for Ryu and some of the others to remain true to their characters they need to move on to new challenges. SF4 would present a perfect chance to end the traditional SF games on a spectacular note. From then on, Capcom could re-create the SF Universe as they see fit. I just want to see them work on finishing the current story before they go off on another tangent. Sakura does fit into this scenario pretty well. She has the desire to be a top-notch fighter so there is a lot of room for character development in terms of both story and gameplay. I mentioned before, that Capcom might go onto a totally new storyline again (ala SF3). If they were to do this, then I would like to see the game take place 10-20 years in the future. This may seem like a lot of time to some of you, but it fits the story very nicely. It gives Capcom a lot of freedom when it comes to creating new character, reinventing old ones, and adding a few surprises (deaths, rivalries, etc…). This would be the time period where Ryu would be able to challenge and train under Oro (in 3s, Oro states that it would probably be another 15 years before Ryu would be ready to challenge him). It would also give Oro enough time to get back into peak conditioning (he mentions that he is out of shape). Mel (as some people wished for) would be old enough to be a valid fighter. These are just a few examples of what Capcom could do. It also leaves plenty of room for various Alpha-like games to fill in the gaps (in case Capcom isn’t ready for SF5). Just a few thoughts. -Clay Posted by Clay on 09:28:2001 07:15 AM: Az: I do agree that a game in between SF2 and 3 is an excellent idea. However, it doesn't seem like Capcom will be making any new fighters for awhile, so it doesn't look like we will get to see this any time soon. That's a shame really, because there are so many possibilities with this game. The storyline would greatly benefit from it and they could use a new fighting engine or tweak a currently existing one. I think that as long as Capcom continues to make quality SFs, people will always be there to play it. Hopefully, the next SF that Capcom makes will get all the time and attention that it deserves to be as good as it can possibly be. Until then, I am more than content to play CvS2 (but I do eagerly await the next pure SF). Here's to hoping for the best. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:28:2001 03:02 PM: I dunno.... one of the reasons I liked Suikoden 2 so much is because it came out three years after Suikoden 1, and the game took place 3 years after Suikoden 1, so all the characters like... aged alongside with me for the most part (with the exception of a few immortals and a time travelling character:P). Now that Suikoden 3 is stated to be taking place FIFTEEN years after Suikoden 2, I find it much less exciting because I just know that a good chunk of characters will either have died of old age or just simply be soooo aged beyond what biologically they should have been to me that it'll be hard for me to relate to them anymore. One of the reasons I think Ryu is so... mastered and used is because... well, think about it. You could become a Rainbow Mika GOD and it wouldn't do you any good later on for the most part as SFA3 grows old and becomes forgotten because the odds of her being in another SF game are slim, but if you master Ryu, you're safe because nearly every SF game is guaranteed to have Ryu practically (or at least a Shotoclone in some way) which gives you a head start on the game play for the most part (the fact that Shotokans are often top tier helps). I'm starting to see lots of complaints in the "About KOF 2001" thread from people about it taking out characters for the most part. While I rarely see true complaints about new characters added in (I see "This new character looks stupid!" but never any "Adding in that new character is bad for the game!!!"), the opposite is generally said for the removal of old characters with the exception of really cheesy/boring/cheap ones. Basically, by starting a new universe/set/whatever, you're throwing away all of your build up that happened over the years. In real life, no one's life is ever truly over, and rarely is their goal ever truly reached, so you can ALWAYS build up on a character, add to their story, turn their story in a new direction, etc. That would be much easier than throwing everything away for a clean slate unless the old slate has a horrible foundation, which despite all the holes, I don't believe the SF storyline has. One of Capcom's and storylines writers' biggest problems though is they often don't do that, which makes people think they'd be better off just concluding what they have then throwing it to the winds and starting a new slate, but I really don't think that's true. I feel I can say this without much bias towards personal preference (in other words, without a feeling of "They should bring back old characters because I want to see so-and-so in the next Street Fighter just because s/he is my favorite!), too, since I really don't have any SF character storyline preferences beyond the dolls and Rose, and they've already concluded within SFA3 with an ending which really wouldn't be able to bring them back much (and I feel that a concept like the dolls really doesn't suit a fighting game medium, anyway) On a random note, Sakura is around age 23-24 during SFIII. Warping the next Street Fighter ahead anymore than 3 years would make her like... old :P Posted by Golden Hell on 09:28:2001 08:39 PM: Hey, I'm new on this board, I only registered because of this kick ass thread. I'm mainly a regular at the gamefaqs message board. Anyways... Clay - I know this was said already, but most of the info supplied by Ultima on page 2 was on the gamefaqs board. Number 6 on that list was originally my post which Saiki had corrected. What I think is cool though is that everything that Saiki had said in that gamefaq's thread has been validated by your posts here. Saiki also shares your disdain for CapcomUSA. He's writing a SF storyline faq right now (including SlamMasters and Final Fight). No pressing questions at the moment, just wanna make sure that this thread stays alive. Posted by Azrael-sama on 09:29:2001 03:55 AM: Well, it's not that we want the SF storyline to end cold turkey. I think we can all agree that there are many things that have yet to be resolved. That's why we want to see a second Zero series, or have SF4 bring back the old storyline. But, you can really only do so much with a story before it starts getting old hat. How long will Gouki wait for Ryu? How many times can Ken and Ryu fight each other? How long will Sagat hold the grudge for? When does Chun-Li decide to hang up her boots and spiked bracelets? You can really only do so much with a story before you have to start recycling ideas and concepts. Look at some of the longer running shows on TV - people are complaining that the Simpsons isn't as funny as it used to be. So, I think that SF has one more good push out of this storyline. For the love of Gouken, Capcom, please, at least one more game. Personally, I'd like to see the second Zero series, to resolve some of the things that happened between SF2 and 3, and then a SF4 to finish off the current story. Then, take it in a new direction with SF5. Throw the storyline ahead a few years...maybe keep Ryu and Oro as bosses, but that's about it. Bring in new characters, and start a new story. That's what I'd love to see. -Az Posted by Lantis on 09:29:2001 04:04 AM: What!? Saiki is doing a SF story FAQ? Nobody DARE topple my story FAQ throne! Naaaaah...I'm not envious at all...I just want to see if somebody can FINALLY make an updated version of my sadly forgotten FAQ... Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:29:2001 04:24 AM: Ah, that's just it. The storyline premises are getting old, though you should note that I didn't say they should keep the storyline premises. I said that *characters* could be taken in new directions. What if Ryu decided to take up Sakura as a pupil? What if Cammy decided that she needed to embark on a quest to find what happened to the other twelve dolls? What is T Hawk going to do to rebuild his homeland now that he gave Shadowlaw the boot from it? What if Chun Li... erm, needed money for her orphanage (okay, that one sounded stupid, I admit). What if Yun & Yang decided to go out and find out what happened to their father, Lee? What if Rolento actually managed to get his organization and fight for a new world order off the ground? All of these could be ENTIRELY NEW storylines for each character yet continue to utilize that character's entire background and history without throwing things to the wind, I feel^^ Life never ever ends. One DOES accomplish goals (thus resolving storylines) but there are always NEW storylines cropping up for a person. Of course, at least, in theory, that's how it is, I feel. Posted by FistsofFury on 09:29:2001 04:32 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Ah, that's just it. The storyline premises are getting old, though you should note that I didn't say they should leave the storyline premises. I said that *characters* could be taken in new directions. What if Ryu decided to take up Sakura as a pupil? What if Cammy decided that she needed to embark on a quest to find what happened to the other twelve dolls? What is T Hawk going to do to rebuild his homeland now that he gave Shadowlaw the boot from it? What if Chun Li... erm, needed money for her orphanage (okay, that one sounded stupid, I admit). What if Yun & Yang decided to go out and find out what happened to their father, Lee? What if Rolento actually managed to get his organization and fight for a new world order off the ground? All of these could be ENTIRELY NEW storylines for each character yet continue to utilize that character's entire background and history without throwing things to the wind, I feel^^ Life never ever ends. One DOES accomplish goals (thus resolving storylines) but there are always NEW storylines cropping up for a person. Of course, at least, in theory, that's how it is, I feel. Yes, there are so many directions these cahracters can go into...an ending to one story is the begining of another as I always put it... There were 12 other dolls?! Jeez, didn't know they were that many. Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:29:2001 05:33 AM: Yea, there are twelve other dolls^^ A very little known fact. You can see 10 out of 12 of them during Juli and Juni's battle introduction in SFA3 (Capcom was too lazy to make sprites for two of them). An official artwork of them is at http://www.geocities.com/lordbahamu...cammyclones.gif The cannon names (SEEMINGLY. Not confirmed, but most likely matched up by going from bottom left to bottom right, then top left to top right) are Enero (Spanish for January. One with microphone.), Février (French for February. One with the gun. Dunno how French she looks), Marz (German for March, though she sure doesn't look like it... looks Japanese to me. She's the computer girl), Aprile (Italian for April. With first aid kit.), Satsuki (Japanese for May. With sword.), Juni (German for June), Juli (German for July... see the pattern yet?), Santamu (Vietnamese for some wierd reason. Looks African to me.), Xianyu (Chinese with nunchuks), Jianyu (Chinese with staff), Noembelu (Latin. Um... huh? Well, I suppose there is no calendar for Native American that I know of), Decapre (Russian. She looks like Cammy's clone but she's Russian so... I dunno?). That girl that I use as my avatar is actually a fan art I found on a Japanese website of Fevrier (one of my favorites). ^^ I'm a doll lover, and probably like... one of the only ones, too. Noembelu is Thunder Hawk's sister apparently. All the dolls are 16 years old in SFA3. Cannonwise, ALL 13 of them (including Cammy) turned on Bison. I believe that Cammy's ending in SFA3 pretty much happened so Cammy saved all of the dolls but they all ended up who knows where. Odds are they're all memoryless, too, yet still retaining their fighting ability in some way. I imagine if Cammy ever found out about her past and decided to seek them out, she'd need quite a lot of resources. Such as... say, resources she could get by winning a street fighter tournament. *cough* But that's just a possible storyline, and an example I'm using about how all characters can ALWAYS have new storylines without throwing their history to the winds. When one goal is accomplished, it almost inevitably opens up a near completely new goal that can be sought after. Or maybe one goal can be accomplished, but there was another goal out there that the character still has yet to achieve (most people do not base their entire life around just one goal). Which is why I feel it's a waste for the Street Fighter series to throw away its characters like that, and the whole "For the sake of something new to the story" argument doesn't fly because you can have a completely new story with old characters that's still connected to the old storyline in some way (while remaining very very new) I feel. Posted by Clay on 09:29:2001 06:06 AM: I wasn’t going to post anything tonight, but there were a bunch of replies, so I couldn’t resist. So here goes: >Well, it's not that we want the SF storyline to end cold turkey. I think we can all agree that there are many things that have yet to be resolved. That's why we want to see a second Zero series, or have SF4 bring back the old storyline. But, you can really only do so much with a story before it starts getting old hat. How long will Gouki wait for Ryu? How many times can Ken and Ryu fight each other? How long will Sagat hold the grudge for? When does Chun-Li decide to hang up her boots and spiked bracelets? You can really only do so much with a story before you have to start recycling ideas and concepts. Look at some of the longer running shows on TV - people are complaining that the Simpsons isn't as funny as it used to be. So, I think that SF has one more good push out of this storyline. For the love of Gouken, Capcom, please, at least one more game. Personally, I'd like to see the second Zero series, to resolve some of the things that happened between SF2 and 3, and then a SF4 to finish off the current story. Then, take it in a new direction with SF5. Throw the storyline ahead a few years...maybe keep Ryu and Oro as bosses, but that's about it. Bring in new characters, and start a new story. That's what I'd love to see. -Az < Exactly what I’m saying. I want Capcom to continue with the current storyline, but eventually, they are going to move on. Most of the characters that relate well to our society are going to quit fighting sooner or later. These people are human, and can’t live on forever. However, some of the characters that have devoted their lives to fighting and self-improvement will attain super-human status (Ryu, possibly Alex or Sakura?). Gouki and Oro have already proven this. Their abilities far surpass that of the other SF’ers and to continue putting them all in the same game could cause problems. Knowing Capcom, a lot of character’s ending would conflict with what is supposed to be “canon” in the SF Universe. This would lead to mass confusion (more so than what we have today). The whole story would be thrown out of whack (as if it isn’t mixed up enough already). I love a lot of the other characters, but people move on. I doubt that Ken will continue fighting as long as Ryu does. Ken has other aspects of his life to worry about, while for Ryu, fighting is his life. Azrael knows exactly where I’m going with this. Thanks for backing me up! >Yes, there are so many directions these cahracters can go into...an ending to one story is the begining of another as I always put it... There were 12 other dolls?! Jeez, didn't know they were that many. Yeah, who knows what the future holds. < The names of all of the dolls where already mentioned, but I’ll list them right here for reference. Each doll coincides with a different month, and is from a different country. They are each specialized in their own fields (some specialize in fighting, while some work in the more technical aspect of Shadoloo, like communications or data retrieval). Here they are: 1. Cammy- one of Shadoloo’s top ranking assassins. A genetic clone of Vega, but oddly enough, talks with a British accent. 2. Enero- January- Spain 3. Fevrier- February- France 4. Marz- March- Germany- one of three German dolls. Why so many? I have no idea. 5. Aprile- April- Italy- Has a brother who contacted Rose for some information on her whereabouts. 6. Satsuki- May- Japan 7. Juni- June- Germany- Used to gather information on top fighters. 8. Juli- July- Germany- Sent out to kill Cammy after Cammy gained independent thought. Falsely portrayed as T. Hawks sister. 9. Santumu- August- Vietnam 10. Xiayu- September- China 11. Yanyu- October- China- (two from China?) 12. Noembelu- November- Native American- T. Hawk’s real sister. 13. Dikappri or Decapre- December- Russia- I’m not sure on the spelling on this one. Each of the dolls is approximately the same age, which is about 16. Why isn’t there a doll from Thailand or Brazil? In past games, Vega has occupied a base of operations at each location. Perhaps he doesn’t want to draw attention to these areas. -Clay EDIT: Didn't see your post Tiamat. That's nice pic along with the info. Posted by Clay on 09:29:2001 07:30 AM: Tiamat: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar I dunno.... one of the reasons I liked Suikoden 2 so much is because it came out three years after Suikoden 1, and the game took place 3 years after Suikoden 1, so all the characters like... aged alongside with me for the most part (with the exception of a few immortals and a time travelling character:P). Now that Suikoden 3 is stated to be taking place FIFTEEN years after Suikoden 2, I find it much less exciting because I just know that a good chunk of characters will either have died of old age or just simply be soooo aged beyond what biologically they should have been to me that it'll be hard for me to relate to them anymore. I know what you’re saying. Remember that I, like Azrael, would like to see two more series of game following the current storyline. I’m not against this idea. I just gave two proposals of what Capcom might be thinking. My second idea was placed farther in the future because Capcom might choose to repeat SF3 and make a new storyline again. Also, Capcom has announced that they have ended this era of 2-D games. They could be thinking of using SF4 to kick off the next generation of fighting games that they produce. 10 to 15 years (or maybe a little less) might not be that big of a stretch, considering that it has already been 3-5 years since SF3. Even if they do jump ahead that far into the future, we can always hope for more Alpha styled games to bring back other characters and fill in the gaps. That said; my first suggestion is what I would ideally like to see. I really do want to see some returning characters. quote: I'm starting to see lots of complaints in the "About KOF 2001" thread from people about it taking out characters for the most part. While I rarely see true complaints about new characters added in (I see "This new character looks stupid!" but never any "Adding in that new character is bad for the game!!!"), the opposite is generally said for the removal of old characters with the exception of really cheesy/boring/cheap ones. I really hate seeing this. First off, I want to give tons of respect to Capcom for changing up the SF3 cast. Back when Capcom was still pumping out variations of SF2, all I would here was how sick and tired everybody was of seeing the same characters over and over again. Then, Capcom makes up a totally new cast of fighters, and everybody complains about how they are not as good as the old ones. What does Capcom have to do to please some people? Anyway this is sort of off topic, so I’ll get into this later (I like most of the SF3 cast). quote: Basically, by starting a new universe/set/whatever, you're throwing away all of your build up that happened over the years. In real life, no one's life is ever truly over, and rarely is their goal ever truly reached, so you can ALWAYS build up on a character, add to their story, turn their story in a new direction, etc. That would be much easier than throwing everything away for a clean slate unless the old slate has a horrible foundation, which despite all the holes, I don't believe the SF storyline has. One of Capcom's and storylines writers' biggest problems though is they often don't do that, which makes people think they'd be better off just concluding what they have then throwing it to the winds and starting a new slate, but I really don't think that's true. I don’t see it as throwing away these options, but more like moving on and creating more options. Like I said, I still want to see these characters hang around for a while, but eventually they will have to leave the limelight. I agree that people always will have new goals to strive for, but I see a hole in your train of thought. When a lot of these characters set their sights on a new goal, it may not be related to fighting at all (Ryu and Gouki seem to be the exception that prove the rule). When Vega is taken down, Guile has no need to enter anymore World Warrior’s Tournaments. T. Hawk isn’t around anymore because he has found his sister and regained the pride of his people. When Shadoloo is destroyed, Balrog and M. Bison (boxer) are not around for the next tourney. There are more examples than this (Blanka, Dhalsim, Elena, Ibuki, etc…). Characters who enter SF with ulterior motives (reasons other than “the fight”) often don’t appear again because they are focusing on other aspects of their life. There simply is no reason for them to be there. Do you really want to see Ken in some far off future SF when he pays more attention to his family and business? Why put him in simply for the sake of having him in another game and he was (emphasis on was) an SF staple? Even if a certain character is your favorite, you have to admit that after a while, its time to let go. Why not introduce a new character? Just trying to get my point across. I’m not necessarily arguing with you, just presenting a different case of what you stated. I do agree with you, and I do want to see some returning characters. I just want their inclusion to make sense. Capcom has had enough mistakes in their story, and they don’t need to make any more just because they need to invent a reason for a character to comeback to SF. quote: What if Cammy decided that she needed to embark on a quest to find what happened to the other twelve dolls?...but there are always NEW storylines cropping up for a person. That Cammy idea is an excellent one. This would be very interesting to see. To reiterate: Other characters will set new goals; they just won’t all be SF related. Compliments on the Cammy idea, by the way. quote: I believe that Cammy's ending in SFA3 pretty much happened so Cammy saved all of the dolls but they all ended up who knows where. Agreed, sort of. Cammy is saved by Balrog (Vega) and left in London. A possible confrontation between these two would be amazing (another good idea for the near future). The part about the Dolls rebelling is true. As far as I know, the Dolls didn't fight Vega physically. Most likely, they had a hand in bringing down Shadoloo from the inside. Vega is killed in the Shadoloo base explosion with Nash (Charlie). Guile’s ending happened. Previous to this, Ryu defeated Vega, but only because of intervention on the behalf of Sagat, Ken, and Sakura. A very brief synopsis. -Clay Posted by Clay on 09:29:2001 08:28 AM: Golden Hell: Welcome and salutations! Glad to see that this thread is attracting more people. Also, it’s good to know that you have a working knowledge to the story as well. Most importantly, I have a favor to ask (since you said that you post at gamefaqs, and that you seem know the enigmatic Saiki). Could you help me get in contact with him? I’m glad to hear that we agree on so many things, and I’m itching to talk to him. There are a ton of topics that I would like to discuss with him, and he could probably provide some more insight to my point of view. It’s cool that we agree on so many levels. I would be greatly indebted to you for any assistance. Thanks in advance. PS I look forward to any replies from you in the future, as well as others who have been participating like Az, FoF, Lantis, R.Akuma, AKUAMA2000, TR, and SJ. Lantis: I have the utmost respect for you and your Story FAQ. I’m not much of a KoF player, but I read your FAQ one day on a whim and was very impressed. Despite my limited (at the time) knowledge of KoF, you explained things in a very thorough and precise manner without taking too many liberties. Thumbs up, soldier! Are you planning to update the FAQ as the story progresses? -Clay Posted by Clay on 09:29:2001 09:14 AM: I know that I have already posted a lot, but if you can stand me for just a little longer, I have a few miscellaneous thoughts: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar On a random note, Sakura is around age 23-24 during SFIII. Warping the next Street Fighter ahead anymore than 3 years would make her like... old :P I fail to see any problems with this. In the SF Universe, most of the fighters don’t peak until they become very old, at least by our standards. I like this, because it shows just how much work needs to be put into this for a person to compete with fighting of this caliber. I know it sounds odd to rate a video game in terms of realism, but I think that Capcom has made it very realistic. Hold on a minute, and I’ll explain. Ryu is just a normal man (albeit, a very athletic and gifted man). Through hard work and dedication he has mastered his fighting style and trained himself in unique techniques (ki manipulation) that a person would normally not have access to. However, it takes time for certain abilities and levels of prowess to be achieved. A person must also go to great lengths to obtain these abilities. I think that it is pretty cool to see people like Oro (140 years old) and Gouki (50+ years old) to be so dominating. It rewards time, effort, and work, which is refreshing. In an increasingly lazy society (I suffer from this too), it’s nice to see good work ethic and dedication pay off for someone (even if they don’t really exist). On a personal note, I believe that in day-to-day life, people limit themselves too much. They don’t have the faith required in themselves to overcome minor obstacles (illness, stress), and some of the seemingly impossible situations that sometimes occur in life. I’ve led a fairly charmed life, but I hope that if I ever get put into a bad situation, that I will rise to the occasion. I think that if a person approaches life with an open mind and sincere will to push themselves (like Ryu), then they will be able to accomplish things that not everybody else is able to do (live longer, stay healthier, attain happiness, find a sense of purpose). I digress, to my original point. I think that Sakura could still be a competitive fighter in her 40’s, but if she isn’t, then it is either because she isn’t as dedicated as she appears to be, she is fighting for the wrong reasons, or because she is massively over-rated and her abilities are boosted to “balance” the game. Either way, it is a testament to Ryu if he is still fighting then. That was just a little personal philosophy. I apologize for going off on tangents. I just realized that this thread has: 100 posts! Woo-hoo!! Topic: What are some of your thoughts on the cast of SF3? I'll state some of mine later, but I’m curious to hear what everybody else thinks. I think that at first, a lot of people were turned off by them, but with time, they gradually gained acceptance. -Clay Posted by Siegfried on 09:29:2001 11:39 AM: I have to do some other things today (I just read through this thread from page 3!), so I'll be brief. I really like Capcom's idea of making older, more powerful characters. There's nothing worse than the stereotypical "I'm 17 years old and have mastered all martial arts" you see in quite a few fighting games. Then again it might be because of the fact that Capcom made them quite old to begin with, and they can't get around that. So Chun-Li IS 25 in SF2, which means about 30 in SF3. I agree that SFA3 makes the ages seem a little wrong, but I consider that a graphical mistake rather than a storyline mistake. If SFA1/2 and SFA3 really happened (didn't we agree that A1 and A2 are the same game storyline-wise?) people could be a few years younger in the first game. Let's say A1/A2 is three more years earlier. That gives us: A1/A2 in 1987, A3 in 1990, SF2 in 1993 and SF3 in 1998. Ryu would be 23, 26, 29 and 34 in the games. Chun-Li would be 19, 22, 25 and 30. Then again, where does that place SF1? In 1987 as well, or earlier? Ryu doesn't look like 23 in SF1 anyway. Oh well, that's enough for now. Posted by CHAZumaru on 09:29:2001 12:09 PM: Clay, I'd enjoy to answer you on that SF3 topic: ***note that I won't talk about the gameplay as it's a storywise thread*** RYU story: The strory is all too basic; not enough drama happens to Ryu, alas that's his lifestyle. design: very good IMO, the best Ryu so far. He looks better as an already exp'ed fighter than as a trainee. ending (3s): nice. stage: classic. special extra cool stuff: the Ken and Ryu demo, the new haircut, the HP color outfit KEN story: *snore* design: very good also, he looks more and more like the old time challenger. ending (3s): stage: hmm, too bad it's the same as Alex. special extra cool stuff: the Ken and Ryu demo, start+HP color outfit SEAN story: mmh... not original enough... design: Not bad, black rasta shoto but geez could we whange his clothes ? ending (3s): stage: not bad but less funny than one of 2I, and since then KoF2000 showed us what a cool harbor looks like. special extra cool stuff: basket-ball and the patchworked outfits. GOUKI story: same old shit, but hey, it's Gouki ! design: the best Gouki till CvS showed us the blur effect (arrgh !!! so cool !) ending (3s): Hum, never really impressed me. stage: great special extra cool stuff: hell, it's Gouki ! ALEX story: mmmh, boarf design: mmmh, booaarrfff... ending (3s): big Leon rip off...boarrffff... stage: I miss that fantastic NG graffiti... special extra cool stuff: "you cown't eshcape, mwarf!" DUDLEY story: *yawn* design: I just love it. Stylish in boxing, stylish in drinking tea, stylish in Jag, sstylish everytime. ending (3s): I nlike it a lot, very "Gren in Tobal 2" IMO stage: not bad special extra cool stuff: so stylee! IBUKI story: so so design: hell yeah, she's the cutest and best drawn ninja fighter IMO ending (3s): I like it. stage: always fantastic. special extra cool stuff: err... NECRO story: interrsting design: I loved it at first, but it got old... ending (3s): not bad... stage: So great! special extra cool stuff: err... YUN & YANG story: *yawn* design: so-fucking-cool, it's the first time teens look like they're fitting exactly. ending (3s): both good stage: mmmh, the raining version was good, but geez they could have done two. special extra cool stuff: they really got different throught the versions. ELENA story: bah bah bah so classic design: hell yeah !!! ending (3s): I love it, but maybe it's cos' I'm French. stage: Hell yeah !!! special extra cool stuff: her animation is really some pure gem. URIEN story: good IMO design: what Gill should have looked like. ending (3s): good. stage: So fucking great. special extra cool stuff: the metallic sound. HUGO story: design: ending (3s): stage: special extra cool stuff: Q story: really intriguing and obscure, so really good material for us design: you shut up guys, I love Tekkaman ending (3s): See the story. stage: oops special extra cool stuff: I just love every thing with that guy, and I loveeven more the fact that at first I disliked everything about that guy. 12 story: yeah I like it design: yeah I really like it ending (3s): yeah I really really like it stage: yeah I really really really like it special extra cool stuff: yeah I...oops, I mean, I do understand ppl wondering whjat the fuck is a "Vampire" series char doing in SFIII... MAKOTO story: *yawn again* design: so good, at least a realistic gi-guy...hum, girl. ending (3s): *snore* stage: GREATEST special extra cool stuff: I just love this character. REMY story: okay go and rip off Saint Seya design: akay go and rip off Iori ending (3s): okay go and rip off Saint Seya AGAIN stage: okay go and rip off Dobermann special extra cool stuff: rip off anyone as you want, cos hell, IL EST FRANCAIS (et moi aussi :sweat CHUN LI story: who cares ? design: the best Chun Li so far, geez they really did great new versions of the old chaps. ending (3s): hmmm, well yes it's good IMO stage: So great, I don't even miss the chicken guy. special extra cool stuff: She 's everywhere in the DC booklet, and it's cuter to see than Hugo ORO story: classic but saved by... design: ...that great arm missing, oldest person alive look. ending (3s): funky stage: see Sean. special extra cool stuff: hum, I just really like this guy. GILL story: *snore* design: really lame, gill's body ain't so bad but blue+red+yellow= yurkkk!!! ending (3s): pretty crazy so pretty great! stage: not bad special extra cool stuff: the ice/fire idea was good, but they fucked up. Anyway I love his supers (yes, even the resurrection!) ****************** So, that made me see a lot of things that I didn't realize on my fav' game: the stories aren't really great, and certainly not original. A few chara designs fucked up, especially Gill, but the ld ones were really upgraded. The stages are sweet. DAMN I LOVE THIS GAME ! Posted by Siegfried on 09:29:2001 12:30 PM: Oh, and I'll use the information provided here (I rely mainly on Clay and Lantis, since you guys seem to know your stuff) to update the seriously lacking SF archive at Fighter Mania. Capcom redraws their characters more often than I rewrite my info ^_^. EDIT: Oh, and make this thread a sticky! Posted by FistsofFury on 09:29:2001 03:48 PM: This thread should be a sticky! Didn't anybody read my Yun calculations...they sound about right...so it's alomst impossible for Yun to be in SFA3....he's only like 10...so why did they do it...that's messing up the storyline.... Posted by Lantis on 09:29:2001 04:11 PM: Well, I got my keyboard, and KOF 2001 is right around the corner, so I'm revved up and ready to go, baaaaaaaaby! RYU Ryu will always be Ryu...no matter how overdone he is, and how tired some people can get of the man with the headband, he is still THE SF master, and rightfully so. Like many others, I wish Ryu would have more of a motive for fighting, not this "I always want to improve!" BS, but not resorting to lame "Dark Hadou" alternate storylines, please. All in all, I think Ryu represents all what a fighting game player desires...constant improval, fight worthy opponents, travel the world in search of tournaments! KEN The eternal shadow of Ryu, I guess that as long as Ryu exists, Ken's achievements will be minimized. But that's OK...Ken is pretty much settled for life, with his family and a "student" (Sean). I guess that he doesn't have much to prove, and let's face it, no matter how much potential he has, Ken won't be dethroning Ryu, now or never. Still, Ken seems to be the "combo machine" while Ryu is more like the "down to business" kind of guy, which also kind of reflects their personality (Ken = reckless, Ryu = cool). ALEX Even though Alex is one of my favorite new characters, I still think he doesn't cut it as main SF III character. He's too...oafish, lumbering, too much of a hothead to be a main character. Sure, Capcom put some background story to him in Third Strike as to make him more intriguing (his relation with Gill), but when you compare him to Ryu, he just doesn't seem right. Don't get me wrong, Alex is a pretty good representative of the "new generation", but not someone I would pass the hero tag to. Not much personality or leadership. SEAN Well, what gives with him? First, he didn't want to be called Dan, and rightfully so (Sean was a friggin' powerhouse in New Generation and Second Impact), and in Third Strike, WHAM! He gets all toned down, his moves look positively dorky (WHY did they do this?), and he's reduced to joke character material. Also, he's being used as everyone's punching bag, not only Ryu's. In Third Strike, he loses in the US martial arts tournament, which kind of tells you, he's not going anywhere anytime soon...Too bad... DUDLEY Ahhhh! Don't try to deny that Dudley is the most suave, coolest looking boxer EVER! He's not dense like Balrog, he actually has the STYLE and fineese that every REAL boxer should have! And fighting with a tux gives props to him ! But his intentions are indeed, pretty dumb. Fighting to get his dad's car back? Heck, why not buy him a new one? And Gill stealing cars...uh, that is just not his style. Anyways, I guess Dudley would be more interesting if he fought for his father's lost pride, but no matter, he rocks! YUN & YANG These twins of doom sure know their stuff! They also represent the theory of "different personalities" rather well (Yun being the leader, and makes decisions, while Yang is the more self-centered kind of guy). Their change of style from NG to SI was something that was obvious. Still, though, their TS story seems a bit out of place: what would Gill want with Yun and Yang's shody village? I still have a blast with these brothers, as Yun gets to be the hard-hitting man, while Yang is the speedy one. Nice style difference! IBUKI If you look aside from her overpowered incarnations of NG and SI, you can see one of those "anime-like-kawaii" kind of characters, and that is a given, since she has a pet raccoon (all kawaii need to have an official pet!), and her "clothes-morphing" makes her all the more natural. Unlike many other ninjas, she doesn't have that dark mood to her, and is rather cheerful (Galford and Mai not withstanding). Although that may seem a bit off the line, considering how she likes to break your neck...not my cup of tea, but should appeal to otakus. ELENA This is pretty much the other side of the coin...while Elena was always reduced to gutter trash in NG and SI, she became VERY decent in TS. Also, she is the first REAL 2D Capoeira wielder (not like that fake, Blanka), and her moves show her elasticity and flexibility. I can't get too much of her story, if she loves her land so much, why does she have to go to Japan? Gives me the "wild jungle girl in the big urban jungle" kind of impression". But still, her happy-going personality is pretty refreshing...and that ass...WOO! ORO Even though he claims to be a "too good" of a master, and doesn't like to fight all that much, I can't avoid but laughing at this urchin everytime I see him. Come on! He acts like a chicken, bobs his head around, and likes to pick his nose and take casual naps! I wonder if they have to portray timeless masters this way? Anyway, I got no problem with him acting like some everlasting know-it-all, but why would he choose Ryu, a master in the making? Even Oro could take a lesson or two from him... NECRO Aside from his odd sight and moves, I think Necro's anti-social and rather rude attitude is absolutely justified: he's been a test subject for Gill's weird experiments for too long, which kind of makes him bitter. Necro's little sister (GF? That little girl? Give me a break!) represents the true light side of Necro, the only hope he grasps on. I have some friends who like the way Necro tends to slither all over the screen, and I'm OK with this Blanka-Dhalsim hybrid. His obscure past makes him all the more appealing. HUGO I like how Capcom evolved this massive behemoth from a common thug in the Final Fight series to a huge wrestler with a defined style. I'll leave the whole "What sex is Poison?" argument aside, since it's *Hugo* we're talking about here. It should be pretty obvious that Hugo's moves cause heavy damage, since he kinds of use other characters as personal toys, cracking their backs, flatting them like pancakes, wailing on them. Hugo's faraway looks and his story could perfectly fit in the WWF anyway you look at it! URIEN The "playable" version of Gill in SI might have been disappointing to those expecting a character as tough as the last boss himself, but I wasn't expecting as much. In fact, Urien's lethal combos are far from being easy: they need skill and precision, and I like it that way. Right here, you kind of have the "envious brother" story that has been going since, what...the Holy Bible (which also kind of makes sense, since Gill also has this Messiah thing going on)? The iron clad brother should get more of a spotlight in future games.... Q I can't comment too much on the story about this guy, since as we all know, he's pretty much shrouded in mystery (nobody knows his intentions, who he works for, and what he really pursues). The Ultraman mask, though, doesn't mean he's joking: his powerhouse moves and tough complextion makes him one tough cookie. If Q ever maintains himself in the SF payroll, I'm really interested in what he has to offer. Perhaps Q himself could represent a different organization that COULD raise its' head in SF 4? MAKOTO Pure martial arts style at its' finest! OK, I'll pass on the fact she is also an anime symbol (Ranma 1/2's Akane Tendo, anyone?), but still, she's not a fake like Akane. This girl is the REAL DEAL! Her moves are not flashy or spectacular, but they get the job done, and that is what real karate is all about! She isn't too appealing to the sight also, but that means skin doesn't sell! Makoto represents a trip back to the roots of what fighting (and SF) is all about: down-to-business techniques and style! CHUN-LI Back by popular demand, many people wondered what Chun Li's intentions would be, now that Shadaloo and M.Bison were gone. The appearance of a "student" made some interesting twists, and bit of a maternal side we never saw from Chun Li. Besides, she's still an Interpol detective, so her investigation on Gill's organization was also something to be expected. Her change in personal style was also right-on, kind of a more faithful portrayal on Chinese martial arts. OK, she is still overpowered, but she still remains the queen! REMY Another character which sparked many rumors (Guile or Charlie's bastard son). I discard those silly quotes, and focus more on the character, who although a bit too "70's style" (what's with badass characters and old school clothes? Iori Yagami is also a good example), kind of adds a chivalry atmosphere to the series. And even when the "Guile son" theory is just pure BS, his disfunctional family and sad, yet angry, personality might prove some interesting revelations in the near future. TWELVE Huh!? Out of all the SF III characters, this guy just seems wrong to me! Forget about his utter crappiness as an effective fighter. Forget about his totally bizarre appearance. Why need some mindless Gill minion who doesn't have interesting twists, if we have Necro, who has more of an involvement will Gill and his organization. Twelve just serves as cannon fodder, and I think nobody will be missing him if he doesn't appear in the next SF game. I have nothing against freaky characters, but this one is weak AND boring! AKUMA The first character to reappear by popular demand (read: scrubs' demand) was Akuma, who also had to pass the "timeline test", and now we have his white hair lines on the sides of his head. Capcom wasted no time in depowering him from SI to TS, which was good. What I was really troubled was that they never progressed Akuma's story with Ryu. Akuma's endings, simply put, had nothing to do with his story at all (trashing mountains and boats? This aint the Johnny Carson show!). Is it possible that the "Dark Hadou" story has finally died? GILL I still have trouble accepting this guy as the last SF III boss, since the very beginning. In TS, Capcom finally began to hit the nail in the head with him (more insight in his organization, and real purposes), something of a new world leader who wishes to create a new utopia, but considering that TS was the last SF III game, I don't think we'll be getting any more news on him. Too bad, because Gill was shaping to be a boss who couldn't be tagged as "pure evil", but I guess he wasn't everyone's cup of tea... Posted by Siegfried on 09:29:2001 05:40 PM: "Alpha takes place a year after Street Fighter." I just noticed this in the long fact list. So, is it possible that Chun-Li was 16 in Alpha, Ryu was 20 and that Capcom simply ignored that SFA3 took place 6 years later and didn't redraw any characters? That would put it like this: SF1 (1983) SFA (1984) SFA3 (1990) SSF2T (1993) SF3 (1998) Ryu could very well be 19 in SF1, he looks about that age. Posted by AKUMA2000 on 09:29:2001 06:23 PM: Where exactly is this fact list located at gamefaqs again ? (didn't want to scroll thru all the post again cuz my webtv memory cache would fill up) Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:29:2001 07:22 PM: Heh, Ken's rival with Ryu is an oooooold premise. I'd be more than happy to see that one finally put to rest and Ryu moving on. Ken's legacy can live on through Sean or his son or something if Capcom wants to continue with him. What I was mainly talking about was characters who'd continually have a NEW reason to fight. In that way, Capcom could keep around most (not all. Deejay and Fei Long come to mind and maybe T Hawk was a bad example for me to use) characters around for a bit while introducing new ones at the same time. Don't think they should keep ALL around probably though (again, Fei Long and Dee Jay I really can't think of any new premises for... apologies to fans of those two but it's pretty true). Aaaah, Cammy searching for the 12 dolls was actually just a quickie example, though I guess it is something I'd like to see... though I also have a preference for another doll who's storyline would take a lot more detail to explain but could fit in really well... erm... but that's off the topic at the moment. I'll get into that later. Right now, third strike characters. Weee. I'll keep these short since I'm not much into SFIII and there are others who have done and will do these evaluations better than me. Ryu: Really, I am NOT a Shotokan fan. Heck, I'm a shotokan despiser, really. But that's just a personal preference of mine. That said, though, I think it'd be really stupid NOT to have Ryu in a Street Fighter game. That'd be REEEEEAAAALLY throwing things to the wind. While I myself see Ryu as bland and such, it is true that his eternal quest for the fight and self-improvement represents the base spirit of Street Fighter as a whole. Not much else to say since I dont' really think he changed that much storyline wise for Third Strike. Ken: I think he might have even changed less than Ryu Oo Alex: For some reason, the idea of a grappler musclebound character being the main just isn't working for me... Sean: Eh, seems good enough since Ken with a student seems good and the Brazillian ethnicity and basketball thing were a nice twist, though I'm a bit unsure about having so many shotokans around yet again... of course, the original SFIII wasnt' supposed to have Ken or Ryu which would have made Sean THE SFIII shotokan. Poor Sean... Dudley: Really really boring storyline, but the character himself seems interesting. I like dignified characters^^ Dignified boxer seems cool too and another oafish boxer when we already had Balrog would have been blah. Yun and Yang: The male Juli and Juni!!!! ...BWAHAHAHAHA, FEAR, Y&Y FANS, AS I INSERT IMAGES INTO YOUR HEAD THAT YOU'D RATHER NOT HAAAAAAVE!!!!!!!!!!! But anyway, yea, Yun and Yang are fun. I'd think that the whole "quiet brother and loud brother" thing would have been done before but for some reason I dont' feel it has... at least to a point where it would seem any less cool. Too bad they don't have much of a story but due to their ties with Gen and Lee, there's potential here for expansion unlike... say, Dudley. Ibuki: I dunno... she seems cute enough. At least she seems to have connections to Geki, and connections are good in a game that had soooo little connection to its prequel. Can't think of much else to say though, but I imagine she could be around for the long term. Elena: Nice fighting style, though I dunno much about her storyline... and really, besides fanservice (frankly, I find the bikini thing to be quite plain, myself), I'm not sure about the character either. Happy and bouncy is cool but not exactly something that would stick out to me above other characters... her storyline doesn't seem to have too much room for expansion but I could be wrong. Oro: Where did he come from? Oo Why is he such a freak? Oo Room for expansion but we already had Akuma so I don't see the need for another 'super fighter'.... Necro: Eh, you need a freak somewhere and I think Blanka would have gotten old by now... not much more for me to say, though... Hugo: Hooray! Any final fight character is good with me Urien: Another Gill? Gack! Though Urien does add a pretty cool rivalry that I don't think has really been done much with a last boss, before. The thong still looks ridiculous, though, IMHO. Q: Yeesh, until more info of him comes out, all Q appears to me to be is a character cooked up at the last minute and thrown in. It's not hard to make a character with completely NO storyline and pass that off as his storyline..... :P Really, the trench coat and mask combo doesn't seem to come off as that good to me, even though I really like trench coats. Course, I prefer my trench coats with shades. That's cliche, though. At any rate, they COULD do a pretty good amount with Q though due to the whole blank slate and the cyborg/robot/whatever-he-is thing. Makoto: Very plain boring story. The character seems plain and boring too, but at least the fighting style seems good. BECAUSE this character has the plainness, I see her returning a lot like Ryu... Chun Li: Her maternalness was shown a little in SFA3 too, given her reaction to the dolls. Erm.... otherwise, tis... well, Chun Li. I really dont' have much else to say, here. How cool she is depends on how much you liked Chun in the first place (just like Ryu and Ken and Akuma) Akuma: Ditto... Remy: Erm... well... he's French? That's interesting for some wierd reason. The whole frozen sister thing, mysterious past, and his despise for warriors also seems like it has lots of potential which really hasn't even been remotely touched yet... He seems to fit in well enough among the rest of the staff. Twelve: Blah. M. Bison's genetic soldiers were much more nifty than Gill's. :P Gill: He looks like a Saturday morning cartoon villain @@ What the heck... that thong looks AWFUL and so does that red blue yellow junk. GAH!! STAY AWAAAAAAAY!!! At least he has the honorable villain thing going for him... give him a suit and regular skin color and we might have something workable here. But I like Kolin. Course, I have a thing for beautiful malicious looking secretaries like Mature and Vice... (who parallel Juni and Juli soooorta. Yay! Erm, now I'm going off on a tangent) Oops, one last thing. My take on the dolls' final ending in SFA3... I believe that basically a combination of Cammy's and Juli's ending happened, then Vega's (spaniard). Basically, somehow, all 13 dolls turned on Bison (probably not physically attacking him, though the thought of 13 young girls screaming and pounding the crap out of Bison seems almost as comical to me as Charlie bombing him then riddling him with machine guns ^_~), Cammy ended up saving them but leaving herself behind in the process (a la Juli's ending) and thus almost dying like the official books say, then Vega saved her. Of course, a lot of that is mere speculation and the only things I have to work with is all 13 turning against Bison, Cammy almost dying, and Vega saving Cammy, but that seems to fit about right. Old characters... well, thing is, most videogame fighting storylines just don't use old women for some wierd reason. When they do, they're often... scary portrayed, I believe. Though yea, truthfully, Sakura has a good 15 more years to go before you could even remotely begin to consider her overaged.... Posted by Siegfried on 09:29:2001 07:27 PM: In fact, Gill fighting in that simple dress of his that he keeps burning would be a lot cooler. Oh, and I updated Fighter Mania. The KoF and SF archives aren't THAT full of errors anymore ^_^. http://www.tekken.nu/fightermania Posted by Ultima on 09:29:2001 11:24 PM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried "Alpha takes place a year after Street Fighter." I just noticed this in the long fact list. So, is it possible that Chun-Li was 16 in Alpha, Ryu was 20 and that Capcom simply ignored that SFA3 took place 6 years later and didn't redraw any characters? That would put it like this: SF1 (1983) SFA (1984) SFA3 (1990) SSF2T (1993) SF3 (1998) Ryu could very well be 19 in SF1, he looks about that age. That timeline sounds off to me. Specifically, it starts much too early. AFAIK, the main constant in all of Capcom's timeline rearranging is that SF1 took place in 1987. Also, Alpha1/2 took place one year after SF1, and that A3 took place 3 years before SF2. Cammy's birthday is listed as 1974, and she's listed as being 16 in A3, 19 in SF2. In addition, SF3 takes place about 5 years after SF2. So all of that gives us the following timeline: SF1 - 1987 SFA - 1988 SFA3 - 1990 SF2 - 1993 SF3 - 1998 This sounds more reasonable to me. 1983 is way too early a date to start the timeline. On 3S characters: I've mentioned this somewhere else, but in defense of Gill/Urien, I would like to point out that (I think) Gill and Urien are based on classic greek gods like Apollo. That's why they have perfectly proportioned and well-defined muscular bodies, as well as why they are only wearing thongs. Classic depictions of greek gods don't exactly have them wearing an abundance of clothes (if any). Since Gill is supposed to be "god-like", and Urien not far from him, I think their character designs are quite fitting. Unusual, and perhaps ridiculous if we think about them in contemporary terms, but they're perfectly reasonable if you consider their design origins. Necro, Oro, Twelve and Q are still freaks though. Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:29:2001 11:41 PM: I really would have preferred that they wear togas instead of thongs, even... :P Posted by FistsofFury on 09:30:2001 03:34 AM: HEY DON'T HATE ON THE THONG! *sings* That thong-tha-thong-tha-thong.....babeeeee... *everyone's ears bleed* Characters that should move off into the sunset IMHO: Ken: Like I said earlier, Ken's priorities are different now. He has a family, and a business. Fighitng for him should just be for a hobby when he has free time. Something like an SF tournament just isn't right for him anymore. Sean should take over. Guile: THERE IS NOTHING MORE FOR GUILE! He's done. He knows what happened to Charile...there's no reason why he should be in SF anymore...don't see why people keep bitching about that.... Posted by Azrael-sama on 09:30:2001 07:37 AM: While Gill's thong is probably more appropriate, I too would prefer the robes he wears before he burns them off. It's not that I don't want to see a mostly-naked blue and red man running around (although that helps... ), but I just think he would have looked better. As for the SF storyline - I think most of the characters are done. Like Ken. I think we all agree that, although he's still a great fighter, he's being distanced by Ryu, and he's probably going to settle down with his family. There are other characters that are far from done, and I would like to see them completed by way of a new SF or two. Clay - Can I give you a "hell yeah!" on the point of Capcom not being able to please people? I mean, they came out with WW...and people were convinced that the 4 bosses were playable. Capcom came out and admitted that they weren't...then made CE. Then people complained it was too slow, so Turbo was made. Super was created to breathe some new life in the system, and again, people complained about the speed. So then Super Turbo was made. Yeah, part of it is financial - 5 version of the same game = lots of money. But at least when they did the upgrades, they were responding to the opinion of the gamers. Goodness knows that there have been worse "upgrades" *coughUltimateMK3ahem*. -Az Posted by TiamatRoar on 09:30:2001 08:01 AM: Wow, people complained about Champion Edition? I didn't know that. I know that for Turbo, most people said it was perfect and I don't remember many complaints then.... ah, that brings back memories, though. Damn, playing as the bosses and at those high speeds was fun... and muahahaha, the code on the home versions to turn up the speed to ten stars so everything was sooooooo fast.... that ruled! Posted by Azrael-sama on 09:30:2001 11:12 AM: IIRC the reason Turbo was made was because people thought CE was too slow. Of course, Super was actually in development before Turbo, so the new speed didn't carry over, and once again, people complained that it was too slow...so super turbo was made. And yes, 10 stars on Super Turbo was complete insanity. Good stuff. I have a few questions now...about Ryu's red headband...in SFII - TAM (which I just decided to watch again a few hours ago) it's implied that he gets it from Ken. The Zero series seems to point to this as well. Is that really what happens? It's amazing at how much stuff from the SFII anime was used for the Zero series. You know, I really wish there was some background on Vega and Rose. Villians always interest me - you assume they're born with parents at least, and a shot at being normal, so I always wonder how they go from potential Average Joe # 10 to potential World Tyrant # 1. I would really like to know why/how Vega gets involved with (does he create...?) Shadowlaw, and where his psycho power first comes from. And how does Rose fit into all of this? And one more thing on Ken - we're all saying that Ryu is distancing himself from Ken...but how tall is the list of people that can beat Ken? I'm thinking only Ryu, Oro, Gouki, and maybe Gill/Urien. I don't know if Vega could have beaten him...I'm inclined to lean towards Vega in that fight. And for something really off-beat - does anybody remember Street Fighter 2088? -Az Posted by Clay on 10:01:2001 05:40 AM: Azrael: quote: Originally posted by Azrael-sama Clay - Can I give you a "hell yeah!" on the point of Capcom not being able to please people? Thank you. quote: I have a few questions now...about Ryu's red headband...in SFII - TAM (which I just decided to watch again a few hours ago) it's implied that he gets it from Ken. The Zero series seems to point to this as well. Is that really what happens? Yeah, this is what really happens. The Alpha storyline borrows heavily from the anime, which happens to be one of my all time favorites (so much for a hard-core SF fan to love). As much as I love the SF2 anime, do not get any crazy ideas that it may be canon. However, Alpha is canon, as well as any ideas that coincide with the SF2 anime. quote: It's amazing at how much stuff from the SFII anime was used for the Zero series. Actually, Capcom has cited the anime as being the inspiration for the Alpha games. I guess that it is only natural for them to be somewhat similar. Some character designs and plot points were taken directly from the anime, so it did have an effect on the SF Universe. quote: And one more thing on Ken - we're all saying that Ryu is distancing himself from Ken...but how tall is the list of people that can beat Ken? I'm thinking only Ryu, Oro, Gouki, and maybe Gill/Urien. I don't know if Vega could have beaten him...I'm inclined to lean towards Vega in that fight. This is a very short list indeed. You summed it up pretty well, though I think that Vega wins without question. In the SF Universe, Ken is a fighter of the highest order. Ken is exceptionally athletic and possesses a lot of natural talent (much like Ryu), but the majority of his prowess comes from expert teaching (Gouken), and his competitive spirit (Ryu). It is a common misconception that Ken is lazy. Most people overlook the fact that Ken actually does train rather rigorously to stay in shape and create new variations of the techniques that he was taught. I think that it’s a shame that most people don’t give him the credit that he deserves. Ken is a “slacker” only when compared to Ryu’s inhuman training schedule (all day, every day, anywhere, and everywhere). Ken trains considerably less than Ryu because of his place in modern society. He leads a normal life as well as the life of a professional fighter. As far as fighters with human limitations go, Ken is definitely top tier. I’d say that Sagat and Gen would win, but I can’t think of anyone else. Ken is levels ahead of most of the other fighters. Only extremely well trained and experienced fighters (Adon, Chun Li, Fei Long?, etc…) provide good competition. quote: And for something really off-beat - does anybody remember Street Fighter 2088? I hope that this will be the only time that that god-forsaken game is mentioned. It carries no relevance towards the SF Universe and was just a terribly pathetic attempt to make some money off of SF. The main character is not Ken. His actual name was Kevin, but CAP USA decided that by changing the story, they could make more money. Let us never speak of it again. -Clay Posted by Ultima on 10:01:2001 06:25 AM: From Azrael-sama: > [B]IIRC the reason Turbo was made was because people thought CE was too slow. Of course, Super was actually in development before Turbo, so the new speed didn't carry over, and once again, people complained that it was too slow...so super turbo was made. And yes, 10 stars on Super Turbo was complete insanity. Good stuff. Some misinformation I'd like to clear up here, plus some stuff that you said before: 1) No one I know EVER thought the bosses were playable in WW. That was an alien concept at the time. Was Bowser playable in Mario Bros? Was Shredder playable in any TMNT game? (note: I'm talking about 1991 and before here). Double Dragon 3 had some exceptions in that a couple bosses joined you, but certainly not all the bosses were playable. "PLayable bosses" was unheard of before CE. 2) No one I know EVER complained about CE being too slow. Too slow compared to what, exactly? With one exception (see point 3), all fighting games around this time played more or less at CE/WW's level. 3) No, what made Capcom hash out SF2 Turbo was when they saw the number if illegally-accelerated CEs coming out (known today as "Blackbelt", "Rainbow Edition", or any of a dozen variations thereof). People didn't complain about CE being too slow, but after they played the much faster, much more interested (and totally broken) messed up CEs and found they prefered the higher speed, Capcom responded with Turbo. IIt was to tide people over until they finished Super SF2. For a total ratch job (there was absolutely no new animation in Turbo; everything was made from recycled sprites), HF was pretty amazing. 4) You're right about Super. It was in production before Turbo and didn't have the speed increase, and this time people complained, because by this time we were used to the higher speed and preferred it that way. Some responded by ignoring the game and going back to HF, others (like me) went and played other things entirely (in my case, I switched to Samurai Shodown, which was waaaaaaay more fun and exciting). So a mere 5 months later, Capcom brought out Super Turbo, which is what Super should have been. 5) You're referring to the SNES Turbo with the 10 star speed and not Super Turbo (there was no home conversion of that for the longest time aside from the 3D0 version, and I doubt that had 10 star speeds), right? > And for something really off-beat - does anybody remember Street Fighter 2088? Uh, you mean Street Fither 2010? Gad, that game was a piece of shit. And hard as fuck too! Posted by Clay on 10:01:2001 07:14 AM: Some more replies: Siegfried: I’m glad you and I agree on the age thing. I always hated (and still do hate) seeing people of similar age to myself who “know it all”. It’s cool once in a while, but it becomes rather obnoxious the more often you see it. I’m glad that most of Capcom’s characters have to work hard to get where they are. The alpha characters are off if those ages are still accurate. However, I tend to agree with Ultima’s timeline. It pretty well matches my earlier posted one, and sounds the most accurate to me. I guess until I hear otherwise, I’ll go by those birth dates, and chalk up the alpha depictions as a weird sort of “artistic interpretation”. It’s cool that you updated the info on your site. I have tried to be as accurate as possible and am honored to have provided information. Glad to have helped. FoF: I posted my thoughts on the Yun subject on the previous page, so check it out. It would be cool if this was sticky, but I think that the thread will survive without it. Everybody has plenty to talk about, so I wouldn’t worry about it. I agree; Guile should just be left alone at this point. AKUMA2000: I don’t believe that the original thread exists anymore, but all of the accurate information seems to have been summed up in Ultima’s re-post. TiamatRoar: Kind of a compromise then. Eventually, I still could see Capcom starting out with a new cast again. I think that it’s just the way that they do things. This doesn’t mean that older characters can’t be reintroduced later on (ala Chun in 3s), but like you said, not everybody will fit into this. You and I essentially agree on the Alpha ending. As for Oro, I see him as a nice foil to Gouki. They had opposite paths to great power and have opposite influences on Ryu. I think that he should be an important figure in future aspects of the story. I’m glad that Alex is the main character of the SF3. Since he has such a different fighting style from Ryu and a totally different personality (at first) it takes the spotlight off of Ryu for a brief period. Most people dislike Ryu’s steady and somewhat monotonous way of life, and it’s good not to shove that in their face all of the time. It also allows Ryu to meet new character without having to win the tournament and be “the best”. Question: Why do doll fans hate Ryu, Ken, and Gouki? It’s just something that I have always wondered. Ultima: Totally agree with your timeline. I also like how you bring about the context that Gill and Urien should be compared in. An excellent point that often goes unnoticed. Nice documentation on all of the SF2 games. You’re right about the title being 2010. I didn’t even notice at first. Az: Unfortunately, there isn’t too much information regarding Rose or Vega. Vega possesses an “immortal” soul and has the ability to posses other bodies. It is said in A3 that the only way to kill Vega is for both Vega and Rose to die simultaneously. Not sure how true that is though. Vega and Rose share a common back round, most of which is unknown. What is known, is that Vega and Rose made a pact that makes them share the same soul, thus allowing them their immortality. It was posted earlier (in Ultima’s re-post) that there are two other beings on the same level as Vega and one being that is even superior to them. How this relates to Urien and Gill is currently unknown. Psycho power and Soul power are essentially the same energies; they just feed off of different sources. Psycho power feeds off of selfishness, greed, cruelty, and other negative emotions; while Soul power gains energy from mankind’s capacity for kindness and other positive aspects emanated from the human spirit. I can’t think of anything else at the moment, but if anyone else has some more details, feel free to post them. -Clay Posted by Azrael-sama on 10:01:2001 08:43 AM: Ultima - for some reason, I seem to remember people thinking that WW bosses were playable. I don't know, maybe it was just my bonehead arcade. Plus, it was a loooong time ago, so I can be easily wrong on that. And you're right about CE, thanks for clearing that up for me. Heh, I remember the rainbow versions. Stuff like switching characters in the middle of the match, everyone having a hadoken, Ryu's homing air fireball, Guile's SB glitch...hey, it was the very first appearance of Hyper Fighting! And yeah, the super speed seetings are just for the home versions, and only Turbo I think. I have yet to see an arcade cabinet with extreme speed settings. Okay, forget I mentioned that 20-something game. Just a little SF obsecurity I happened to remember. I also vaguely remember that there was a game being planned that would have been based on the SFII anime. I remember seeing a screenshot of Ryu DP'ing a monitor cyborg...but I guess the project slipped into obsecurity and was quietly killed. But yeah, no more of that game...it's almost as bad as SF - The Li...The Liv...The Liveeee.....no, I can't bring myself to say it. Clay - It's a shame that there isn't more info on Vega. It could be a very interesting little bit of backstory. I dunno - I have a thing for villians, and I like 3D ones - ones that have motivation and a real reason for doing what they do, not just "I want power and money! Ha ha ha!" guys. Yeah, I figured the SFII anime was an inspiration for the Zero series...although I'd never heard that Capcom actually said it. It was just kind of obvious. Hmm, let's see what else went from SFII anime -> Zero off the top of my head...I'm sure I'm missing stuff... Zero - Ken's long hairstyle, red hairband, and his huge eyebrows - Vega's teleport, fireball, and fighting with his cape on - Ryu and Ken Vs Bison tag team mode - Character animations (note how Sagat goes from lanky in SFII, to huge in SFZ) Zero 2 - Vega's ship stage - Sagat's secret grass stage Zero 3 - Ken giving Ryu a noogie in their pre-fight intro - Ryu's fight against a Vega-controlled Ken in Ryu's storyline - Cammy's red hooded overcoat -Az Posted by Golden Hell on 10:01:2001 02:53 PM: Sorry for not responding sooner, got internet problems with my home computer so I can only post when I'm at work. Clay - I'll see what I can do regarding Saiki. I'll post a msg on the gamefaqs board before I leave work tonight (I think he lives in Japan so with time differences and all...) and hopefully he'll respond. I'll bump it a few times just in case he doesn't see it. Just a random thought, I've always liked how Capcom had been putting Final Fight characters in Street Fighter games (Hugo being my personal favorite), but I'd really like to see Dean (final fight 3) in one. Does anyone have any backstory on this guy? I think it was said he participated in street fighting circuits so he already has a tie in that way. Was what he said in the in-game cut scenes about his backstory the same as in the Japanese version? I think the manual said something like he has cybernetic implants but then again, this is from CapcomUSA, so that could possibly be all rubbish. Posted by FistsofFury on 10:01:2001 04:37 PM: quote: Originally posted by Azrael-sama - Character animations (note how Sagat goes from lanky in SFII, to huge in SFZ) Yeah I noticed that. I wonder why? Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:01:2001 04:49 PM: >> TiamatRoar: Kind of a compromise then. Eventually, I still could see Capcom starting out with a new cast again. Yea, eventually, the old cast will be phased out, probably... maybe not completely. KOF, which phases in and out characters, still has quite a couple vets from way back in day one (Mai Shiranai and Yuri and Terry as the most obvious examples). But anyway, I think Capcom should probably make the phasing extremely gradual and hopefully execute good judgement on which characters can have their storylines rejuvenated with innovation and which they can't. >>>>I think that it’s just the way that they do things. Continuing from my first paragraph and not in reply to this sentence of yours: But unfortunately, that's not how Capcom does things. *glances back at Street Fighter 3 and how Capcom pretty much was going to throw away EVERYTHING to the winds and not even have Ryu* >>This doesn’t mean that older characters can’t be reintroduced later on (ala Chun in 3s), but like you said, not everybody will fit into this. Heh, Chun Li, Ryu, Ken, and Akuma only returned due to fan outrage. Silly Capcom. But yea, that's pretty much it. Should reintroduce and keep characters who's storylines you can either rejuvenate, need to resolve still, or such. So we're pretty much in agreement here. It's too bad that Capcom had to go the 'throw everything to the wind' route, cause even ignoring the amount of storylines that need to be resolved, there's still lots of untapped potential in many (not all) of the characters and such, I feel. >>You and I essentially agree on the Alpha ending. As for Oro, I see him as a nice foil to Gouki. They had opposite paths to great power and have opposite influences on Ryu. I think that he should be an important figure in future aspects of the story. Oh, most certainly, he SHOULD be an important figure in future aspects of the story, but I feel that for Street Fighter 3, he wasn't. Which... really was just bad. Since... him being an important figure would have like... given him a POINT OF EXISTING. Erm... yea:P Capcom on a whole in my opinion really dropped the ball on the Street Fighter 3 storyline. Lots of parts of it did have lots of potential, but potential is meaningless if it isn't tapped into. And sadly, with Capcom announcing that there will be no Street Fighter 3's after Third Strike, it can be safely said that that potential will never be tapped into for Street Fighter 3. Maybe for Street Fighter 4 or something. I wouldn't say that Street Fighter 3's storyline is awful, but I wouldn't say it was really that great either. However, it did have lots of potential which could have made it great and can still be tapped into for the next Street Fighter though. >>I’m glad that Alex is the main character of the SF3. Since he has such a different fighting style from Ryu and a totally different personality (at first) it takes the spotlight off of Ryu for a brief period. Most people dislike Ryu’s steady and somewhat monotonous way of life, and it’s good not to shove that in their face all of the time. It also allows Ryu to meet new character without having to win the tournament and be “the best”. Yea, I agree there. Another Shotokan character would have been... ick. Now that I think about it, even though I still dunno about Alex as a main character, I do have to say that in this case I myself wouldn't be able to think of anyone better to be the main... >>Question: Why do doll fans hate Ryu, Ken, and Gouki? It’s just something that I have always wondered. I... don't know? Oo Now that I think about it, that's a really good point though... though it's also semi-important to note that a good chunk of Cammyfans aren't doll fans and don't even realize that there are ten other dolls besides J&J. I myself am more a Juli Juniper than a Cammy fan, and while I like Cammy, she'd actually be number 13 on my list of favorite dolls. When I posted a pic I made of all twelve dolls to the Cammyfan message boards, the main response I got was "Good job Tiamat. I especially like Cammy in the black suit." :P Which tells me that a good amount of Cammyfans really don't care that much for the rest of the dolls... But anyway, they're similar enough I suppose, so I could attempt to analyze this for you. Note that I'm not sure that ALL Cammyfans hate Ryu, but a large amount sure seems to for some reason. I'm going to spare you my personal nondoll related reasons for disliking Ryu since I'm sure you've heard them all and in fact have already stated them too, and that's actually besides the point since that has nothing to do with me liking the dolls. Zee list 1. Envy Now, I'm not going to bother talking about stupid envy like "Ryu sucks because he's the main character and Cammy isn't!" Instead, I'll go into other things. First, the gameplay. As far as I can tell, Cammy is never top tier while Ryu always is (the exception being MvC2, but that doesn't really count since that's a VS game, not a Street Fighter game. Another exception miiiiiiiight be CvS2 but even if that's true, that game is new). Sure, Ryu trains a lot, but Cammy's life revolves around combat too and she's genetically enhanced so you'd think she'd at least hold a candle to him. Again, this is based on the fact that as far as I can tell from everyones' top tier lists, Cammy is NEVER top tier while Ryu is, so no "it doesn't matter what character you pick as long as you're good!" stuff please:P Anyway, to summarize. Cammy SHOULD HAVE (not sure about the present day Ryu, but in the past Street Fighters) at least held a candle to Ryu since her life revolves around combat too albeit not as much but the genetic enhancement should really make up for it. The second part of envy is the storyline. Most Cammyfans I talked with seem to cite their hatred of Ryu to truly begin with SFA3. Now, analyzing the SFA3 storyline, I can sorta see why. Bison created Cammy to be his new body. He said thus so. He created all 12 dolls even based on her (well, kidnapped and brainwashed, whatever. That still can be counted as 'created'). And in SFA3, who's the guy he's pursuing that he really wants to be his next body? Ryu! Here we have Cammy who gets involved with tons of storylines (I believe she's the midboss to more characters than Ryu is) to the point where she even has one of the final bosses modelled after her (Juni and Juli), and if you'd ask most people including Cammyfans, who would they say be the main character of SFA3? Ryu! Cammy is the one being the midboss, Juni and Juli are the ones being the final bosses before Bison, and Bison is the main villain and the dolls revolve around him to the point where Cammy is to be his next body and yet despite all of that, the main character and Bison's goal is Ryu. This rivalry between Cammy and Ryu for storyline spotlight is further emphasized in how Juli goes after Cammy while Juni goes after Ryu. The two dolls who are practically sisters and one of the two possible special last bosses before Bison (the other being Balrog for some wierd reason:P) and one of them goes after Cammy while the other goes after Ryu... well, anyway, yea, Cammy seems to play a huge roll in the SFA3 storyline as do the rest of the dolls I feel but it all takes place behind the scenes as Ryu takes the spotlight. This might irk just a few Cammyfans I imagine. Bison to Rose who I believe DOES have a doll connection: I don't have time for you. I have an appointment with someone else (That someone else is Ryu). Yeeeesh, you know Ryu has the spotlight when Bison cares about him more than the gal who dedicated her life to hunting him down... note that I'm not saying it was a BAD thing that Ryu had the spotlight (matters of opinion there). Just saying that it would be a good reason for most Cammyfans to despise him in a game where Cammy could have been the star. Friend: Nah, Juni's ending probably didn't happen and isn't canon so Juni and Juli probably didn't die at the end of SFA3. Me: What makes you say that? Friend: Think about it. In her storyline, Juni BEATS Ryu. Me: Ah, touche! 2. Matters of Preference Cammy is female, fights for emotional reasons (her independence, save the rest of the dolls, to find out about her past) and thus angsts about many of those reasons, and despite not being a very team player, fights on a team (The dolls, Delta Red) Ryu is male, fights for the spirit of the fight and doesn't angst... or at least angsts in a completely different way (The thought of Ryu angsting about anything besides giving into the satsu no hadu eludes me), and needless to say, is a loner. Thus people who have a taste that would make them magnetize towards Cammy most likely would have a taste that would make them polarize away from Ryu. Erm... yea. And.... um... that's about all I can think of at the moment. Like I said, there's also the whole "Ryu is the star and Cammy isn't so Ryu sUxx0rZ!!!!!" kind of thought but that one to me seems rather irrational when taken in context of it by itself :P I do feel that Ryu probably should remain as a main character for the most part because yea, the whole fight thing embodies the spirit of Street Fighter a lot more than Cammy does, I feel. Also is another reason why I feel the dolls in general as a concept don't really fit into a fighting game media, anyways. Disclaimer that I could be far off the mark. Like I said, I'm a Juli Juniper more than a Cammyfan. And of course, it might be that not all Cammyfans hate or dislike Ryu though so far it does seem a good majority of them do. ...hmm, that was pretty good. Think I'll save this analysis for my doll webpage if I ever get off my lazy arse and get the thing up and running. As for why they'd hate Gouki or Ken... well, all shotokans besides Dan (and sometimes he's included too) tend to get lumped together that way... though most Cammyfans I've talked to seem to like Ken. (Me being one of them... well, I'm not a Cammyfan but close enough) Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:01:2001 04:53 PM: Fist of Fury: I think Capcom did that simply because anime style graphics that SFA utilizes are the type that would portray Sagat as more muscular. On a random note, if the debate about the whole Bison new body thing isn't dead yet, I did go back over the dialogue faqs of SFA3 and multiple times, Bison says to whoever he's fighting something akin to "I will defeat you with this body!" and often talks about "Very well, it's about time for this body to expire anyway" as proof that him getting a new body for SF2 really was implied a lot in SFA3 already and such if anyone still cares. *snicker* I don't think Bison would have fit into Cammy's lil' body though. No wonder why he wanted Ryu's. Final Fight characters in SF games rule!!!! Now where's Edi. E!?!? A cameo in Cody's win pose isn't enooooough! We can't live without his Patrol Crash super!!! There just isn't anything more stylish then crashing into someone with your police car. About Vega (M. Bison in USA) not having much info on his background: Yea, that's too bad, huh? Capcom basically portrays him as a Saturday Morning Cartoon villain (on the flipside, Gill LOOKS like a saturday morning cartoon villain). I swear, him deciding to kill Juni or Juli when you play as one of those two just for the sake of being evil was one of the stupidest most copout "LOOKIE AT ME I'M EVIL I BETRAY MY OWN LOYAL HENCHMEN!!!!" pieces of crap I've ever seen. -_- Juli and Juni were NOT getting independent and becoming dangerous like Cammy was, and Bison told Balrog (the boxer. I go by US names cause that's what I'm used to and actually prefer) "Had you been more faithful to me, I wouldn't have to kill you like this.", so why do Juni and Juli get Bison's death sentence just for doing their job? No wonder why all 13 of his dolls turned on him. The ladies' man Bison certainly ain't. Too bad, since without the dolls, Shadowlaw is actually kinda boring when I think about it (in my opinion, of course). Obviously, M. Bison never read the "top 100 things NOT to do if you're an evil overlord" list. Shooting your own soldiers just for successfully completing the mission you gave them is a big no-no. Posted by Siegfried on 10:01:2001 08:48 PM: About Rose and Bison, maybe I should scan and post their bios from AAC? The scanner is warmed up after contributing proof to that mildly irritating gay debate. But then again I guess Saiki or someone else should have mentioned that already in the first mega-list. As for the dates, I agree that they should be in 1987 and so on (makes sense to put the first game at the time it was released), but it still makes Ryu too old. 23 in SF1? Oh well, fine with me. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:01:2001 10:28 PM: Bio scans sound good^^ Though... I can't read Japanese very much at all. ACK! Posted by AKUMA2000 on 10:01:2001 10:47 PM: About Ken........SF4 should be the last tournament where Ken fights Ryu and wins and retires, but with his son Mel making his SF debut. It'll be cool to Ken's student Sean, go against Mel... Posted by Saiki on 10:02:2001 05:15 AM: Hey Clay, I just read the message that Golden Hell posted on the gamefaqs msb and I just came over here. You seem share the same amount of interest for the story of SF just as much as me. Makes me smile everytime I find out that more people are interested in the SF story. I'd be cool if we could share our knowledge and stuff. Anyways, later Posted by Clay on 10:02:2001 06:00 PM: Saiki!!! I was just cruising by and I saw your name so I had to reply. There are a ton of things that I would like to talk about. Since talking via the forums sometimes gets off topic, I will PM you with an address that you can reach me at. No rush, but let me know if you get the message. Many thanks to Golden Hell on this one! I had visited Gamefaqs a few times, but never really saw any good threads that Saiki had replied in. I was thinking of just starting a topic asking for him, but I don't always have a lot of time to check up on stuff like that. Thanks for helping me out, buddy. I really appreciate the assistance. -Clay Posted by Clay on 10:02:2001 06:45 PM: CHAZ: Excellent point about the lack of originality on the story. Capcom was pretty vague about everything, but I think that it opened up a lot of options for the future. I think that Ryu, Ken, and Gouki have aged very well. I also like seeing somebody else who doesn’t hate Twelve. I kind of like the semi-albino. I wish that Capcom would come up with one last update to SF3, so that they could build up the story better and fill us in on what happened. Tiamat: Nice response. Thanks for answering my question. I have always wondered why a lot of Cammy or Doll fans have such a hatred for Ryu. They usually use any topic in any discussion as an opportunity to bash him. All of that pent up rage; they just seem to be seething with it. From my perspective, if you don’t like a character, then you don’t have to use them or pay attention to them. Thanks for the insight. One last note: Despite your admitted dislike for Ryu, you still acknowledge that he is essential in the SF storyline, which in my book, puts you one up over other Cammy/Doll fans. Golden Hell: I also like seeing FF characters appear in SF. I think that Capcom has done a very good job intertwining the two series. I give them a lot of credit on this one. Thanks again for contacting Saiki! Siegfried: 23 does sound too old for Ryu in SF1, but until I hear otherwise (Saiki?) I guess that’s what I’ll have to go by. This is why I wonder if Capcom has changed their birth dates. Sometimes it seems that Ryu is around 18 during SF1, 21 in A3, 24 in SF2. This would make him 29 during SF3, which isn’t too much of a stretch. Like I said though, I think that we should stick with the first set of dates until further notice. AKUMA2000: Mel vs. Sean sounds very interesting indeed, but I do have some reservations. In 3s, Sean is made out to be more of a joke character, and his ending isn’t very promising. He loses in the qualifying rounds for the US Martial Arts Tournament. This is hardly SF material. If Capcom decides to keep him along that path, then I would rather not see him return in any future games. People already complain about the amount of shoto’s (I hate that term), and I wouldn’t want to have an extra one in a game, especially if they’re going to make him useless. -Clay Posted by AKUMA2000 on 10:02:2001 07:16 PM: Good point Clay..........If capcom made a 4th sequel of SF3, i think they should replace Sean with Mel. Then in SF4 Ken could either be a sub boss or final boss for Mel, which would be good way for Ken to retire from the streetfight to see how much his son has progressed from his training...... (just my opinion) Posted by Golden Hell on 10:02:2001 07:58 PM: Clay - No problem, man. It was my pleasure. IMHO you and Saiki are the most knowledgeable when it comes to an official Street Fighter storyline. It only made sense that you two should meet up and compare notes. Just happy that I could help. Posted by Clay on 10:02:2001 08:09 PM: Lantis: Thumbs up on the excellent analysis! A very good read for any one who has any questions. I think that I should answer my own question, so I’ll make comments and opinions based off your response. Most of what I would say would be redundant because accurate descriptions. Ryu: I think that Capcom has done an excellent job with Ryu in this one. He has aged very well and has the look of a seasoned, veteran fighter. While his story hasn’t changed, I think that it is more than acceptable this time around. I view the SF3 story as a transition stage. It has developed a lot for future storylines, but little else. Also, because he is not the main character of the third tournament, he doesn’t need to have any extra motivation. I’m glad that he was just left to himself on this one. Future confrontations with Oro should prove very interesting, and may provide Ryu with other motives for fighting, which a lot of people seem to want. I think that it was refreshing to see Ryu stay out of the spotlight, and not enter the tournament and win (very good move by Capcom). It shows you that his priorities are not on being the champ, but on self-improvement (people should already understand this). It also allows non-Ryu fans to have a break from the “Wandering Warrior”. SF3 also marks, what I think is Ryu’s first time traveling in America. I thoroughly enjoyed Ryu’s pre-fight encounter with Dudley and some of the other fighters, and thought that Ryu’s, Oro’s, and Alex’s endings were very well done. Seeing Ryu and Gouki hold a sparring match in order to gauge each other’s progress would have been nice, but it can wait till next time. Overall, I think that this was Ryu’s best representation yet (not that the previous ones were bad). Capcom does a very good job of understanding and portraying his true essence. Ken: Ken has also been developed very well. You see him spend more time with his family, but they still show that he is a powerhouse. The difference between Ken and Ryu is now more striking, Ken has different priorities than his long time rival and friend and cannot hope to keep up with him. I love the showdown in 3s between the two. Ken is as arrogant as ever, and Ryu is still confident in himself. In a rare show of emotion, Ryu states: “You may think so, but I still have the better win record. Stand strong!”. After all of these years, Ken still seems to bring out the best in Ryu. 3s sums up their rivalry very well and shows that in the future, they will embark on different paths. Seeing Ken win (quite easily) an unprecedented third US Championship in a row was a nice touch. Because Ryu and Ken seem to be going off on their own during this series, I don’t believe that they officially entered the third WW Tournament. It makes sense, considering that they weren’t meant to be in the game to begin with. Alex: I really like Alex and I think that it was nice to see a new lead character, but I don’t think that it is a title that he should retain. He serves his purpose during this transitional storyline, but I think that Lantis is correct; he just doesn’t fit as the hero of the story. I think that he could be an interesting recurring character, as long as he isn’t the lead. On a side note, Alex was the first grappler that I liked playing with. I learned how to do 360’s because I started playing around with him. Previously, I had no interest with grapplers, so if a character makes somebody want to learn their style, then Capcom has done something right. Sean: Read Lantis’ opinion. Exactly what I think. I mentioned in an earlier post that if he stays along that path, then I don’t ever want to see him again. Dudley: One of the best character designs ever, period! Wish he had a better reason to fight. Everything about him screams out coolness: his clothes, his rose, his accent, his butler, his car, his moves. Too cool. I would love to see him return, with better motivation. Perhaps he could fight for his father’s reputation (like Lantis said), or to meet some of the world’s greatest challengers. He seemed thrilled at the spectacle of fighting Ryu. Yun & Yang: I love how these guys are so different, and their fighting style displays their variations. Like opposite sides of the same coin. Ibuki: Not a personal favorite, but she’s all right. I don’t think that she should return, because there is no reason for her to continue fighting. I’m with Lantis on this one. Elena: I can’t see her coming back because her story is too… dull (she is also poorly motivated). She fights to meet new people? Why not just travel the world without fighting? She is a fine visual spectacle and an excellent representative of capoeira. Oro: Though quite comical in his appearance and mannerisms, I wouldn’t underestimate him. I like his whole philosophy on life and love the fact that he is 140 years old (he certainly looks the part). I thought that it was very innovative the way that he has sealed his arm to level the playing field. His pre-fight banter with Gouki is brilliant! He has untapped potential because we don’t really know quite how powerful he is. I love the way he can EX his supers. It adds some nice variations and opens up a few new options for him. As far as philosophy goes, I don’t think that there is a lot that Oro could teach Ryu. Ryu seems to have that part nailed down. However, I think that Ryu could stand to learn a lot from him as far as developing supernatural abilities and could gain considerable insight on life and his purpose in it. Oro could also provide direction to Ryu and give him a new storyline. I hope that Oro will return in future SF games because I think that he provides a lot of storyline options. His 3s ending is one of my favorites in the game. Watching those two training without even noticing each other was cool. Also, Lantis: I think that Capcom portrays Oro in this manner so that they avoid the same problem that they have with Ryu. Some people wouldn’t be able to relate to him and would say that he is boring. At least this way, he is entertaining. That’s all that I have time to cover for now. I’ll try to get to the rest of the cast later tonight, or at the very worst, tomorrow. -Clay Posted by FistsofFury on 10:02:2001 09:50 PM: That's right, they could do a lot with Oro...he has much potential to affect the other characters..he'd be...a great last boss..Oro with BOTH ARMS...kicking all the little kids' asses... Yun and Yang are my favorite SFIII characters...they have a certain flair to them... Sean..I wanted to see Sean....as a good fighter. I really did. He seemed like he could be the next shoto...gets the passed torch ya know? But they screwed him up ....... I still say Ken should go...for the good of the story. It pains me...but it is only right... Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:02:2001 10:23 PM: There are other doll fans? Where? *looks around* Really, in all my searching of the net, the closest I got to finding another pure doll fan (as opposed to simply a Cammyfan) were Cammy fans who only semi-liked J&J (and then only because they were like Cammy) ^^; Like I said, when I showed a bunch of pics I made for the twelve dolls at Cammyfan (the only place I can think of where I'd find any other doll fans), the ONLY replies I got were "Cammy looks great in the doll outfit!" Ah well, someone went and drew a pic of Fevrier so I guess somewhere among the Japanese population there are other doll fans... too bad I can't speak Japanese:P Randomness: Yun and Yang are my favorite SFIII characters, too. I like twin character duos and Yun and Yang pull it off with a lot of style. Even more randomness that's incredibly off topic by now: Noembelu being T Hawk's sister explains a lot why M. Bison bothers to tell Thunder Hawk that he knows who Thunder Hawk's father was. All this time I thought that was just a pointless quib. Posted by CHAZumaru on 10:02:2001 11:05 PM: have you checked that "cammy fan page hq" web site ? Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:02:2001 11:13 PM: Cammy fan HQ? What's the URL of that? Only page I know of that's dedicated to Cammy that's been updated with any regularity is www.cammyfan.com. Posted by Saiki on 10:02:2001 11:39 PM: Wow, this is almost weird. I'm so used to Gamefaqs where it had like 2 people that knew SF story. Now I'm here and lots of people know the story quite well. Anyways, I just want to say one thing about the timeline thing. Siegfried SF1 (1983) SFA (1984) SFA3 (1990) SSF2T (1993) SF3 (1998) that's exactly when things took place. The only thing I'd like to add is that not all of SFZ/Z2 took place in the same year. Most of the events took place in 1984 but other events like Sakura took place in 1989 which would explain her not aging. Posted by CHAZumaru on 10:02:2001 11:41 PM: I'm sorry I don't know the URL it was a link in a previous cammy thread. Posted by Ultima on 10:03:2001 12:34 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Anyways, I just want to say one thing about the timeline thing. Siegfried SF1 (1983) SFA (1984) SFA3 (1990) SSF2T (1993) SF3 (1998) that's exactly when things took place. The only thing I'd like to add is that not all of SFZ/Z2 took place in the same year. Most of the events took place in 1984 but other events like Sakura took place in 1989 which would explain her not aging. *raises eyebrow* 1983 starts the timeline and not 1987? I have some issues with this: 1) Don't SF1 and FF1 take place roughly around the same time? The reason for this is the fact that Guy is missing from SF1. I heard Guy was supposed to be in SF1, but he was in Metro City helping Haggar and Cody and thus was unable to enter. 2) This in turn messes up some of FF's history. As was reported before, FF1 takes place "mid 80s", sometime after Haggar was newly elected mayor of Metro City. Haggar was a wrestler for the Muscle Bomber/Slammasters series in the early 80s. If all of this is true, then in 83 Haggar would still be a wrestler, not mayor, and thus Sf1 would have taken place long before FF1, which doesn't explain why Guy wasn't there. Of course, if Guy wasn't supposed to be in SF1, then this is okay. I guess. However: 3) I find it hard to believe that the events of SFA1/2 take place over such a HUGE period of time. A six years gap between A1/2 and A3? While I don't think that everything takes place at once, a gap that big bothers me. A1/2 and A3 seem too closely related for a whole 6 years to pass. Two sounds more reasonable to me. A two year gap (1988 -> 1990) also explains why Sakura didn't age much from A1/2 to A3. 4) What's wrong with Ryu being 23 in SF1 (1987)? This isn't a KoF or a Final Fantasy game we're talking about, where many of the characters are in their teens. SF has always had an older cast. If you're used to anime/manga these days where a "young hero" is maybe 10-14 years old, but back then, 23 was definitely not considered old. I don't see why anyone thinks 23 is too old for Ryu in Sf1. I dunno. My timeline makes more sense to me (i.e. starting in 1987). Oh well. I could be wrong. Say Saiki, how about translating that Poison bio Siegfried scanned and posted in that other thread for us? It would clear up a lot of shit. To TiamatRoar: I think you're blowing the whole "Cammy fans hate Ryu" out of proportion. I would have thought Cammy fans hated Ryu because he's, y'know, a shoto and a scrub-magnet and maybe many Cammy fans still can't beat ye ol' scrubby FB->DP patterns. Or maybe they're just fed up of fighting Ryu over and over ad infinitum. I wouldn't have thought it was anything as specific as what you pointed out. I'm sure Cammy fans hate Akuma and maybe Ken just as much as well. Posted by Saiki on 10:03:2001 01:00 AM: I just realized I copied the wrong one. It was suppossed to be. SF1 - 1987 SFA - 1988 SFA3 - 1990 SF2 - 1993 SF3 - 1998 Like you said. I just noticed that I copied the wrong one. Stupid mistake on my part. And where's the other thread that you mentioned? I can't seem to find it. Posted by Ultima on 10:03:2001 01:38 AM: From Saiki: > I just realized I copied the wrong one. It was suppossed to be. > SF1 - 1987 > SFA - 1988 > SFA3 - 1990 > SF2 - 1993 > SF3 - 1998 > Like you said. I just noticed that I copied the wrong one. Stupid mistake on my part. *facefaults* Well then. It's nice to be right, I guess. > And where's the other thread that you mentioned? I can't seem to find it. http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...?threadid=40769 The "gay characters thread that has evolved into whether Poison is a man or not" thread. Tread lightly. Siegfried's scan of Poison's bio is on page 4. And thanks. Posted by Saiki on 10:03:2001 02:20 AM: Here's a translation from ALL ABOUT CAPCOM FIGHTING GAMES 1987~2000 " SFZERO An enemy character that appeared in 'Final Fight'. A member of Mad Gear who looks like a female but as actually a transexual(new half). Out of the two transexuals, she's the one with the pink hair.(the other is known as Roxy). Because America said, 'It's wrong to hit females in the game' they made her into a transexual. Appears in Sodom's ending of SFZERO, and they reform the Mad Gear. SFZERO2,SFZERO2 ALPHA, SFZERO3 Appears in the background. In Guy's Metro Stage, she observes the fight along-side former enemies like Haggar and former Mad Gear members. SFIII 2nd The manager of the wrestler Hugo. Is the big sister(brother?) character, and unlike the simple Hugo, takes the lead and progresses events. Gets into fights with Hugo alot but the two somehow fit together. SFIII 3rd As everyone fears Hugo's strength, she interupts the match and comments. Forming the new group 'HWA', she forces people into the group Final Fight Revenge The first time players can control Poison. Her transexual stages have been upgraded and now looks female unless told other-wise. In the ending, it seems as though Poison and Cody are lovers....could Poison have gotten a total sex change?" Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:03:2001 02:55 AM: Wow, maybe she did get converted to female then.... albeit... officially perhaps always was male and got a sex change (as opposed to Capcom changing her history retroactively and making her female all the way) Erm, I think I'll stop commenting on that. Since that belongs in the gay thread and that thread's sorta getting really scary. Ultima: Well, yea, calling Ryu and all a really scrubby character I supposed WOULD be the much more blunt, concise, and less diplomatic way of saying that he outclasses Cammy in nearly every game, I imagine... ^^; Though I prefer to think that it goes a bit deeper than that or at least use soooome proof (like, for example, how top tier lists often seem to include Ryu and not Cammy). And I wouldn't exactly call top tier characters scrubby myself... though I've never really seen top tier fighting. Supposedly SFA3's top tier fighting is one of the least cheap scrubby top tier fighting of all though. I'm also pretty positive Ryu's storyline has something to do with it since all the Cammyfans I've talked to voice that as a reason, too, and like I said, there have been several that HAVE stated that their hatred of Ryu began with SFA3, so... But oreo. Like I said, I'm not a Cammyfan. You might be right. There's a good chance that those are just my specific reasons and I'm looking into things waaaay more than I should. I tend to overanalyze things a lot more than your average Cammyfan. When you're a doll fan (don't get me wrong. I like Cammy a good amount, but again, Cammy's probably the 13th doll on my list of favorite dolls), you sorta have to, because unlike Cammy, there isn't much canon info with the dolls going around or that exists even so you learn to grasp at straws. :P Of course, me saying any that Cammyfans hate Ryu just because he's scrubby would to many basically be me saying that not only are all Cammyfans Ryu haters, but they're also all shallow idiots, and that's really a statement I don't care to make or conjecture about :P As well as believe to be only true mostly just for a small minority of people everywhere (and not just Cammyfans) I've still seen most Cammyfans say that they either liked Ken or were neutral about him, though... Ken storyline wise is the type of character who people with Cammy tastes would magnetize towards a bit more than Ryu and Akuma (who are both similar in how they always look for the fight) Fed up over Ryu ad infitum IS a point that I forgot to mention, though, that's probably true... Posted by GaroDoe on 10:03:2001 03:09 AM: here's the link http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/cammyh.../change_mb_list and no, i dont like Ken too much, I like them both the same, but i like Akuma more. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:03:2001 03:33 AM: Hey Garodoe^^ Thanks^^ Well, guess I should include disclaimers that not all Cammyfans like Ken over Ryu either but LOL... it's getting to the point where I'm having so many disclaimers that my post would be 90% disclaimer and the actual message hard to see:P I guess I'll just use the all purpose disclaimer and state that everyone is always different and has different tastes. Yea! :P Wow, poor Cammyfan HQ doesn't look that active, though Oo Posted by Clay on 10:03:2001 06:05 PM: Whoa... I was shocked when I saw Saiki's first post about the dates, I thought that maybe I had been spreading the wrong information. Glad we got that cleared up. Ultima, I don't have a problem with Ryu being 23, but I think that Capcom's Alpha artwork could have represented his age better. He looks too young and inexperienced. I like the fact that most of Capcom's characters are older, it adds a sense of realism. Thanks, Saiki, for clearing up the Poison situation. I had stopped by that thread once in a while, it's good to have some closure. FoF: It is a shame that Sean became such a joke character, but I'm not going to miss him too much. Keep in mind that Capcom may still bring him back. If they do, then I hope that he is greatly improved. Also, Ken can stick around for a while, I was just making the point that eventually he and Ryu are going to split paths. I think that the time is nearing. Last, I hope to see Oro use both of his arms when Ryu is ready to challenge him. quote: Originally posted by Golden Hell Clay - No problem, man. It was my pleasure. IMHO you and Saiki are the most knowledgeable when it comes to an official Street Fighter storyline. It only made sense that you two should meet up and compare notes. Just happy that I could help. Thanks. I think that it's pretty cool that we could gather so many SF fans here. It's usually very hard to find other people who like to talk about SF, at least where I live. I just want to give credit to everybody for contributing to the thread: Ultima, Lantis, Az, Siegfried, Tiamat, FoF, CHAZ, AKUMA2000, RagingAkuma, and others that I haven't mentioned. Keep it up! -Clay Posted by Siegfried on 10:03:2001 08:11 PM: While we're at it, maybe I should scan the dolls' bios as well? There's not much information at each though, basically just: "One of Vega's clone soldiers. Her name means *a month* in *some language*." How did the artist make that fan art with each in a different haircut, occupation etc? I guess that huge fact thread is official too then. Just one thing that bothered me; did Sagat really lose to Dan? Does the book say anything about what happened to Dan after that? It's getting late, but I'll look through it again later (for like the 4th time) to see if there's anything that's still controversial... Posted by Night on 10:03:2001 08:33 PM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried I guess that huge fact thread is official too then. Just one thing that bothered me; did Sagat really lose to Dan? Does the book say anything about what happened to Dan after that? I'm not sure if this is the correct answer, but I've heard that Sagat knew that Dan was too consumed in revenge, so he decided to throw the match and let Dan win, not giving it all he had. Dan is just a whelp, and Sagat probably just wants another CLEAN match against Ryu one last time instead. Posted by Clay on 10:03:2001 09:17 PM: Thoughts on the SF3 cast (continued from a previous post): Once again, some of my responses are based off of Lantis’ post. If I don’t have much to say, then it is probably because Lantis has already stated it (at which point I will refer you to said post on page 5). Necro: Despite how much I may dislike his attitude, I think that Lantis made a good point. Capcom gives him a pretty good back round, so I can understand where he’s coming from. I really, really wanted to see a good ol’ fashioned throw-down between Necro and Twelve, but we never really got one. Unfortunately for Necro fans, I would put my money on Twelve. Twelve was made to be superior to Necro, and this is a fight that I can’t see him losing. Even if Necro does survive, his best bet would be to lie low and try to live a peaceful life (that’s hard for somebody who looks the way he does). Hugo: See Lantis’ post, I have nothing more to add. I also think that Hugo’s endings are pretty funny. Good comedic value. Urien: Urien makes a really good villain. He’s vicious, merciless, cruel, and despises everything and everybody. Heck, he even wants to kill his own brother. He wields a considerable amount of power, though not nearly as much as his brother. I’m curious to see what lengths he would go to overthrow his own brother. What kind of alliances would he make? Would he try to use Twelve and the other “perfect weapons” against Gill? I also like how the clothes that Gill and Urien were in their pre-fight appearances show the difference in their personalities. Gill is clothed in robes and looks like a religious-mystical figure. Urien, on the other hand, dresses in more contemporary clothes that “mortals” would wear. I think that this not only shows the separation in their powers and abilities, but also Urien’s tendency towards jealousy, hatred, and other human flaws that Gill does not seem to posses. Q: Not much else to say. Q is a wild card that Capcom could use to twist the SF plot in any direction that they feel like. That coupled with his unorthodox fighting style means that he should stick around for a while. Makoto: Lantis hit the nail on the head with this one. A “classic” Street Fighter. She would fit well into the SF4 scenario that I previously posted (the one with Sagat). She’s a fighter, so she would fit into any tournament very well. However, I don’t see her having any purpose in an SF game that isn’t based on a tourney (like the Alpha series). Chun Li: Her last appearance should have ended any Ryu-Chun Li rumors. 3s is yet another SF game where they don’t have any connections and no common storyline. Ryu and Chun live in separate worlds and 3s further demonstrates this. Remy: I’m not sure if Remy will make any more appearances after SF3. He makes peace with himself and his sister in his 3s ending. I suppose he could travel around the world for the rest of his life trying to make people stop fighting, what kind of life is that? Does anybody really think that he could convince Ryu or Gouki to stop fighting? I think that his whole “I fight in order to stop others from fighting” mantra grows old rather quickly, but that’s just me. Maybe there is a market for this character. Twelve: Easily one of the most hated and disliked characters in the game. Even as people grew accustomed to some of the other freakish characters, Twelve never gained acceptance. I’m going to go out on limb and say that I LIKE Twelve. There, I said it. He is a living weapon, and I think that any Twelve-Necro interaction would be fairly interesting. Also, his vast amount of abilities allows Capcom to change/upgrade his fighting style as much as they want. I don’t necessarily need or want to see Twelve in any future games, but unlike most people, I wouldn’t be upset if he turned his odd-shaped up again. Gouki: He didn’t really have much to do with the storyline. Gouki spent his time creating new techniques of massive destructive force. It’s safe to say that Gouki was not entered in the third WW Tournament (like Ken and Ryu) because he spends his time traveling around the world destroying land formations and the like. I can live with the fact that Gouki didn’t have any interaction with any of the other characters this time around, but next time we better get something. Gouki vs. Oro (masters of opposite forces, deadly fist vs. peaceful mind), Gouki vs. Gill (to show us exactly how powerful Gill actually is), Gouki vs. various other SF’ers (how does Sagat compare, what ever happened to Gen and Adon’s search for Gouki, etc…), or at the very least, a “sparring” match between Gouki and Ryu. Gouki has so much power; I want to see him use it once in a while (against something that is sentient). Lantis: I think that the “Dark Hadou” storyline, as most people perceive it, has ended. Gouki has accepted the fact that Ryu will not use the Killing Intent, and is waiting for Ryu to become strong enough to fight him. Ryu will most likely reach that level without using the Killing Intent (though Gouki may insist that they fight to the death). Gill: I don’t think that Gill gets enough respect as a final boss. He has very interesting goals and motivations, is more than your average villain. I wouldn’t even classify him as a villain. Unfortunately, his looks have been more of a turn off than anything else. It’s too late for Capcom to change this now, so they can either kill him off, or hope that people will be more accepting of him in future games. I would like to see continued use of Gill because he is an interesting character with an interesting past as well as noble ideals. He doesn’t have to be the final boss, I don’t believe that he belongs in every SF game, but I hope that sometime down the road, we will see him again. -Clay Posted by Clay on 10:03:2001 10:16 PM: Sagat vs. Dan quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Siegfried I guess that huge fact thread is official too then. Just one thing that bothered me; did Sagat really lose to Dan? Does the book say anything about what happened to Dan after that? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sagat did indeed “lose” to Dan, but it wasn’t like Dan actually beat the snot out of him. Sagat couldn’t care less about Dan, and when he saw how upset Dan was (he was filled with hatred for Sagat) he let him avenge his father’s death. I’m sure that Sagat isn’t proud of the fact that he killed Go in his rage, and this may have been his way of making things right. Also, to what extent Sagat threw the match is also unknown. In Dan’s twisted world, landing one blow on Sagat or knocking him over may have signaled “victory”. I can see it now: After giving his big speech to Sagat about revenge, Dan runs up to Sagat, gives him a jab to the face, and runs away claiming “victory”, just kidding. Remember, this is the guy who thinks that he is the strongest warrior in the world. Sagat considers Dan to be pathetic. When he first met him, he saw Dan’s blind rage. It reminded him of how he once was over his loss to Ryu. By allowing Dan to “win” Sagat was able to save Dan from the same path that he (Sagat) had once traveled down. More proof that Sagat didn’t really lose to Dan: In a hypothetical meeting between the two in A3, Sagat refers to Dan as “the kid that bothered him the other day”. This hardly sounds like talk from a man who had been seriously thrashed by Dan. -Clay Posted by Clay on 10:03:2001 10:38 PM: About that “huge fact thread” that was re-posted here: as far as I know, most of the information is official. Most of the info was provided by Saiki, though it seems that a few erroneous facts have squirmed their way into the list. Vega Fabio de Cerna? His real name is Balrog. Also, I don’t think that Dorai is the official name for Chun Li’s father. I believe that he still remains nameless. Correct me if I’m wrong on this one Saiki, but it sounds like somebody else contributed those bits of info. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:03:2001 10:56 PM: To Siegfried about that pic of the twelve dolls According to Stefan of Cammyfan.com, that's not a fan art. That's an actual Capcom official artwork of the twelve dolls as well as the only known one in existance^^ Looking at the sprites and not including the various accessories each doll has, the hairstyles matches up to ALL of the actual doll sprites PERFECTLY (well, all 10 of them, since Capcom didn't make sprites for 2 of the dolls), right down to the two mini-bangs on Satsuki, so I'm pretty sure it is an official art since no fan artist would be able to do a rendition that accurate (Satsuki's bangs) from simply a sprite without any other reference art to go by... anyways, exactly how Stefan got his hands on that pic is beyond me. The fan art of Fevrier that I use for my avatar (in the full pic, Fevrier has her gun) was made by a Japanese artist BEFORE Stefan himself got that doll pic, so apparently the pic of the 12 dolls was available somewhere in Japan before Stefan got to it. Stefan himself has been an actual playtester for Capcom so maybe he just happened upon the pic then, or maybe somewhere out there it's in a really vague art book. If you want more proof or confirmation that that pic is official, you can e-mail Stefan. I myself don't know Stefan that well at all. I'm just going to take his word for it that that pic is official for now. It matches up with the sprites and in real life assassin units are supposed to be extremely varied, and I'd like to think (I'm very big into being in denial. Yeehaw) that the dolls were a bit more varied (via weapon specialties) than just Cammy-clones with slightly altered hand to hand moves:P Note that Stefan's ordering of the twelve dolls (IE, which name gets paired up with which doll) has NOT been confirmed though. I actually e-mailed him that pattern because I spotted it within the picture and it seemed to fit. I guess he decided not to bother giving me credit but I dont' mind since I didn't really ask for it anyway. But at any rate, I'm pretty sure that order is it because it seems to logically fit things (Decapre the 'Cammy-clone' being the final doll, all the Asian dolls fit in with their names correctly it seems, Juli and Juni fit correctly, etc) Anyway, here's the pic again http://www.geocities.com/lordbahamu...cammyclones.gif Here's Juni and Juli's battle intro if you want to compare dolls to the pic. Note that fluffy pink haired girl Enero and braided hair girl Jianyu don't have sprites. http://www.geocities.com/lordbahamu...llanimation.gif And here's an extra added bonus. All 13 of the dolls custom created by me ^_^ I use the official sprites for the heads where applicable though I gave them all my own touches in order to coincide with the official art pic and I had to create Jianyu and Enero from scratch. It took me many hours to make all of them so steal these without permission and credit and I shall have to quietly murder you or something not very nice. :P http://www.geocities.com/lordbahamu...ollSprites.html Isn't Aprile's little first aid kit complete with red cross AND Shadaloo winged skull insignia of EVIL just the cutest little thing? Vega's full name in the Street Fighter 2 anime is Vega Fabio De Cerna. It should not be taken for canon because that's just an anime. Furthermore, because he is named Balrog in Japan, it's obvious that his full name in Japan can NOT be Vega Fabio de Cerna and CoJ is the one that generally calls the cards when establishing stuff like that. Clay pretty much got Sagat's SFA3 situation right, I believe. It's obvious they met before from Sagat's comments to Dan (and I believe Dan's introduction remarks state that he already avenged his father, now) and Dan, while still glad to get even more revenge, is mostly just looking for dojo members now so Dan apparently already got his revenge (or believes he did, hehehe) earlier. And of course, Sagat refers to it as just being bothered the other day ^^ Sagat's actually a really cool character the way he handled Dan, methinks. Posted by Saiki on 10:03:2001 11:10 PM: That huge SF story fact thingy floating around was mainly provided by me, Golden Hell and True Warrior. Some wrong info somehow slipped in their though. Like Vega Fablio, and Dorai. There's more but I can't remember them. Oh, and about the ordering of the 12 dolls. I'm the one that gave that info to Stefan on CammyFan. He won't say that though cuz he hates me now.(I gave a bad rating to Cannon Spike and he hasn't e-mailed me or replied to me since). Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:03:2001 11:21 PM: Whoa, you e-mailed it to Stefan, too? Oo I saw him put the pattern up on his site the next update after I e-mailed him, myself. We must have both sent it to him at around the same time or something. Whoa. Ah well, not that it matters, since Stefan himself doesn't seem to be wanting to give credit to anyone, anyway -_- Furthermore, that isn't something that I'd really care to get credit much about since it was mostly just conjecture on my part (and Saiki probably has official info to back it up, I imagine, right?). Still... awfully rude of Stefan but I'd better stop now because I'm about to get into a huge anti-Stefan rant and that's something I'd really rather not do at a message board where he can't defend himself if he doesn't know about it. Even if... I'd love to... though really, it's not like he profits from any info he posts up so I guess that might be another reason I'm not so mad. Cammyfan costs him 230 dollars a month to hold up Oo Posted by Saiki on 10:03:2001 11:46 PM: Tiamat Roar That's cool. We must have sent it to him at the same time. Most likely you sent it first. Because I e-mailed him to give him the names of the dolls, then I realized the pattern and e-mailed him again. And I'm really not bothered by him not replying to me anymore. Oh yeah, the 12 dolls do specialize in a different department. Although all twelve dolls possesse very high fighting/assasination techiniques. And each one is suppossed to fight pretty different. The only thing that all 13 have in common is that their attacks rely on kicks mainly. Other than that, they each developed their own fighting ability. BTW, nice gif of the dolls. Posted by Clay on 10:03:2001 11:57 PM: Saiki- That's what I thought. It's still very accurate, and easily the best concentrated amount of info around. Hopefully, other people have seen it by now. Nice job! Tiamat- Nice sprites. That's also a very good judgement call on your part. I don't know the guy, but more often than not, discretion is the better part of valor. -Clay Posted by r_liang on 10:04:2001 12:23 AM: does fei long have anymore depth or story to him than that he is a chinese martial artist/film star? i'd like to know more about fei long! thanks! Posted by FistsofFury on 10:05:2001 03:35 AM: quote: Originally posted by r_liang does fei long have anymore depth or story to him than that he is a chinese martial artist/film star? i'd like to know more about fei long! thanks! Not really. But if you wanna hear something about Fei-Long, try out my fic....I added some story for him...gave him a nice little plot twist IMHO, Fei-Long is a cool character, and they could still do a lot with the guy. Posted by FistsofFury on 10:05:2001 03:37 AM: Tiamant....NICE job on those sprites. I can tell you're a doll fan. How long did it take you do those? They look totally Capcom Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:05:2001 03:51 AM: Thanks, everyone^^ Saiki: Wow, they all specialize in a different fighting skill? I was starting to get under the impression that their kicks were all the same but the weapon specializations made their overall fighting styles really different. Since... Juni and Juli don't appear to have developed a very different style from Cammy... Times to make each sprite Well, the regular standing poses each took about... 15 minutes. For the special poses Enero: 3 hours. Mostly spent on the hair. Ugh, no wonder why Capcom didn't bother making a sprite for her. I believe she's the only doll with 'long' hair. On a side note, it's really wierd that the first doll be the microphone communication specialist... I can imagine the look on Bison's face right now when he thinks "Okay, forget the doll project. I'm sorry but an assassin that specializes in MICROPHONES just doesn't cut it." Course, in real life, communications is a very important aspect of assassination. Fevrier: 2 hours. Marz: 40 minutes. Aprile: 2 hours. Satsuki: 3 hours. Santamu: 2.5 hours Xiayu: 1 hour Jianyu: 3 hours Noembelu: 1.5 hours Decapre: 10 minutes ^_~ At least... those are rough estimations. I kinda lost track of the time while making them. It took me 4 weeks to finish all of them though (course, not like I worked on them 24/7 but still...) Posted by Clay on 10:05:2001 04:42 AM: About Fei Long, I wish there was more to his story, but I can't think of anything. Too bad, because I also think that he's pretty cool. Outside of him being a film star who has a taste for real life street fighting, there isn't too much else to this Bruce Lee wannabe. In A3, Shadoloo recruits him, but he turns down their requests multiple times. Whether this is canon or not doesn't really matter because it doesn't really change the story that much. I think that there is a good chance that Shadoloo had some past interest in him, but I doubt that he was followed around as heavily as he was in A3. On a sidenote, I think that it is somewhat ironic that Fei Long's "Street Fighter" movies are so succesful, considering how terrible its real-life counterpart was. Posted by Azrael-sama on 10:05:2001 06:21 AM: Let us never say "Street Fighter" and "real life movie" in the same sentence again... For all the stuff that was added into home Z3, like Fei Long, Guile, Dee Jay, Juni/Juli, et al, is any of that stuff canon? Or is it arcades only? -Az Posted by Clay on 10:05:2001 07:34 AM: Az- quote: Let us never say "Street Fighter" and "real life movie" in the same sentence again... Sounds like I touched a nerve. Don't worry, I hate that sorry excuse of an "SF" based movie as much as you do. What a waste. I just wanted to point out the stark contrast between the two. quote: For all the stuff that was added into home Z3, like Fei Long, Guile, Dee Jay, Juni/Juli, et al, is any of that stuff canon? Or is it arcades only? I cannot give a definite answer on this one. Hopefully Saiki can shed some light on the A3 continuity. I'm not sure how Fei Long and Dee Jay fit into the story. Remember, Guile's ending did happen. This is Charlie's official death, and hopefully it will stay that way. Posted by Siegfried on 10:05:2001 09:44 AM: Tiamat, do you mind if I steal them WITH your permission then? I'll give you full credit for those cool sprites. I got the Alpha 3 rips from my sprite ripping friends the other day, but this is much cooler. I'll only use the basic stance versions anyway... maybe put all into a single picture. They're just too crowded on the official sprites. Back to SF3: I too think Gill is a cool "villain". After discussing with my friend we've decided on two types: Kefka-villains and Sephiroth-villains, the Sephiroth type obviously being better ^_^. Kefka-villains have no motivation. They go around giggling insanely, shouting "Evil evil evil evil!" and often look quite the part. Most bad cartoon shows have villains like this. And sadly too many games. Sephiroth-villains have a motivation to do evil deeds. They are often physically beautiful (and not to mention white-haired ^_^) and have something dear that they fight for, no matter the cost. Sephiroth had the Cetra (that he was actually no part of), Seifer had his dream of being a knight, Gill wishes to create his perfect world and Akuma simply wants the fight of his life. Neither are evil from their point of view. It's when the villain himself proclaims that he's evil, that he's no longer a believable character. Hitler didn't go around saying "muah hah hah, my evil empire will rule the world". Osama bin Laden surely doesn't say to his terrorists that they're the badguys, in fact he calls them heroes. Good fictionous villains are those that mirror our very own, real villains. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:05:2001 02:23 PM: Well, if you have my permission, it's not really stealing... :P Sure, go ahead and use them though ^^ Fighter Mania is a cool site. Yea, the Alpha 3 rips... well, like I said, Capcom didn't even bother making sprites for Enero or Jianyu, LOL M. Bison is a Kefka type villain and Gill is a Sephiroth type villain from what I see. I like Gill's concept on paper and his characterization, but really, like I said in that Gill's ending thread, his looks RUIN EVERYTHING. I mean, he could have practically the most perfect character concept in the world and with a look like THAT... really, it's just WAAAAAAAAAY too out there for nearly anyone to take seriously. What was Capcom thinking!? I know someone who's a VERY big Gill fan and even she DESPISES how Gill looks with that stupid thong and that EVIL clashing blue and red look (She did do a fan art of normal skin colored Gill in a suit which looked much better). It's too bad, because Gill is a good character concept and really could have been good and have been a very respectful villain but... yea, those looks are just SOOOOOO INSANE @@ Az: SFA3 actually fits into the canon easily, though I suppose there is nothing in the present day SFs that could confirm it happened. However, the books don't say they don't exist. Of course, it probably doesn't really matter since I'd be surprised as heck if most SFA3 things showed up again. Storyline wise, the dolls 'concluded' with SFA3 when Cammy saved them all really and are all probably just all around the world without their memories of whatever happened and are just living normal lives now.... well, normal lives complete with genetically enhanced skills and all but whatever:P And Rose is dead and Bison is dead and Bison was a pivotal point to most of the SFA3 storylines, so we won't be seeing any much confirmation that SFA3 happened in any future Street Fighters coming up, that's for sure. The only way that SFA3 could be confirmed within the games to have happened I feel is if Thunder Hawk returned with Noembelu there too and there was something about her to indicate that she was once a doll, because I don't see any other plots from SFA3 that were influential enough to anyone to come up and be confirmed later... well, Vega and Cammy too but I don't think future SFs will be having many if any of the old characters (besides Ryu etc) at all. Clay's right. Fei Long and Dee Jay in SFA3 practically don't matter anyway with their storylines being very noninfluential. Heck, the same goes for nearly everyone (Though E Honda's ending was most likely just a comedy relief one and thus didn't happen, like Charlie's. LOL! "Don't say things like that! It makes you look like a bad guy!") which is why it's doubtful that you'll see confirmation in future SF games that SFA3 happened. Here's my analysis of how things COULD have fit in and which endings might have made a difference to present day SF. Note that these endings might have happened but even if they did, odds are VERY good that it happened WITHOUT that character fighting M. Bison. Noninfluential means that it might have happened, but it doesn't really matter anyway since it really wouldn't affect the present. Adon: Noninfluential Akuma: Noninfluential Birdie: Noninfluential Blanka: Noninfluential Cammy: Probably. Alternative is that Juni's ending happened and that all the other dolls are DEAD now, but I doubt that. Either way is sorta noninfluential though. Charlie: Joke ending. People need to lighten up when they say SFA3's storyline is BS because Charlie lived in his ending... Chun-Li: I don't think this one happened. Canon wise, it's been confirmed that Vega (Balrog) saved Cammy, not Chun, and brought Cammy to England himself, I believe. Chun Li's actual canon conclusion for SFA3 was most likely actually the same as Guile's. Cody: Noninfluential Dan Hibiki: Joke Ending. Blanka's still alive in SF2 so this didn't happen probably. Dhalsim: Noninfluential Edmond Honda: Most likely joke. Side note. While most people say they'd love to see the dolls in sumo outfits, I myself prefer the regular doll uniform to nearly anything:P Gen: Noninfluential Guy: Noninfluential Karin Kanzuki: Noninfluential Ken Masters: Proven to have happened I believe... or was it Sagat's? Ken was there for the fight vs Bison I think though M. Bison: Got as far as fighting and taking control of Ryu but didn't get to achieve his ending or else the world would be a different place today ^_~ Rainbow Mika (Mika Nanakawa): Noninfluential Rolento Schugerg: Noninfluential Rose: Happened. Poor Rose is officially dead I believe Ryu: Happened (going by Saiki's/Hellraiser's/whoever's info here). Sagat: Happened, but he never fought Bison. Combine this with Ryu's ending and it makes sense. Ryu gets brainwashed by Bison, Sagat fights him a la Sagat's storyline. Sakura Kasugano: Happened. She was there after Ryu got brainwashed, I believe. Assuming I'm recalling my info right. Sodom: Noninfluential Vega (Balrog): Happened. He never fought Bison (which is why he's still a Shadowlaw lord in SF2), but after all dolls turned on M. Bison, the books state that he saved Cammy who was almost dying, which is why I believe Cammy's ending happened too because it seemed to indicate Cammy herself stayed behind to save the rest of the dolls, then Vega had to save her. Zangief: Noninfluential Balrog: Joke ending. I GOT PAID! Juli: This is almost the same as Cammy's ending, anyway, for the most part. Juni: This is like an alternative what-if ending if Cammy wasn't there to save the rest of the dolls I feel. Eep! Poor dolls Oo Evil Ryu: Evil Ryu never existed in the first place and he's just there as an extra what-if character (Brainwashed Ryu by Bison is a different thing, I believe). This is why Evil Ryu doesn't appear in ANYONES' storylines in SFA3 as a mid boss or boss. Fei Long: Noninfluential Dee Jay: Noninfluential T Hawk: Noninfluential, really. Maybe he did finally find Noembelu and get his sister back, or maybe Noembelu's off in some far off corner of the world lonely and homeless and wondering why she's always having nightmares of being a murderor and doesn't remember Thunder Hawk at all, but either way unless T Hawk ever returns in an SF (which seems doubtful with Capcom going this throw-to-the-winds route), it won't matter. Guile: Happened. The official way that Charlie died finally. So you see, with the exception of two or three joke endings, the SFA3 storyline actually doesn't contradict the canon much at all, I feel. Nearly all of the characters' endings could have happened without mucking up the present day continuity at all, and there are a few that fit in well too. Of course, on the flip side, with Street Fighter 2 really not having much emphasis on storyline at all (for good reason. Back then Fighting games were a wee bit too new to concentrate on story that much) and SF3 basically throwing the entire old storyline to the winds while it explored new stuff, there really isn't much to confirm that the SFA series ever happened in the present day games either. Makes sense that there couldn't be much in SF2 that would confirm it what with SF2 being created long before SFA series was:P Posted by FistsofFury on 10:05:2001 07:15 PM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar M. Bison is a Kefka type villain and Gill is a Sephiroth type villain from what I see. I like Gill's concept on paper and his characterization, but really, like I said in that Gill's ending thread, his looks RUIN EVERYTHING. I mean, he could have practically the most perfect character concept in the world and with a look like THAT... really, it's just WAAAAAAAAAY too out there for nearly anyone to take seriously. What was Capcom thinking!? I know someone who's a VERY big Gill fan and even she DESPISES how Gill looks with that stupid thong and that EVIL clashing blue and red look (She did do a fan art of normal skin colored Gill in a suit which looked much better). It's too bad, because Gill is a good character concept and really could have been good and have been a very respectful villain but... yea, those looks are just SOOOOOO INSANE @@ I think the way Gill looks isn't a stupid move, I think Capcom was making point Hear me out on this: You can look at Gill and tell that he is somthing more than human. just by looking at him. Gill's look simply states that he is above mankind. Beyond the normal man *sings* THAT THONG THA-THONG-THA-THONG!!!!!!*sings* Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:07:2001 07:30 PM: If that's what above the normal man looks like, I definately want no part in it Oo Even if mankind's taste in beauty is inferior to a god's, I can not bring myself to believe that that is a higher look and anything less than 'blindingly butt ugly'. Posted by FistsofFury on 10:07:2001 09:32 PM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar If that's what above the normal man looks like, I definately want no part in it Oo Even if mankind's taste in beauty is inferior to a god's, I can not bring myself to believe that that is a higher look and anything less than 'blindingly butt ugly'. LMAO I see your point Posted by Clay on 10:09:2001 08:09 PM: As long as we're bashing Gill, I'd just like to point out that he probably has the ability to change his appearance. God like beings and other deities often posses this ability, heck, even Urien can do this (pre-fight intro). It seems only natural for Gill to be able to do this as well. I'm bringing this up because if Capcom ever wanted to use him in another game, he might be totally revamped. To get back to what FoF was saying, regardless of whether we think that he is "blindingly butt ugly", Gill is definitely above mortal standards. Gill's height, stature, physique, long flowing hair, and pefect symmetry display this. I certainly do agree that, at the very least, he does look a little goofy, but one could rationalize this and say that I (we) are not evolved or enlightened enough to fully realize or appreciate his physical manifestation. Anyway, I would like to see Gill in a "human form" if he ever does reappear. I just don't think that it is a good idea for him to travel the world looking the way he does. On a final note, I do like the robes. They add to his messiah-like personality. I don't mind the thong too much, we just need to keep in mind the proper context that we should view it in. Credit to Ultima for pointing this out. -Clay Posted by Golden Dragon on 10:09:2001 09:28 PM: Wowee! Wherever there's a message board concerned 'bout street fighter's storyline, I'll be there. Saiki, Golden Hell, how have you been, fellas??? 'member me? I read this whole thread in one day, & I'm happy that there are others(besides Saiki)who have accurate knowledge of Street Fighter's official storyline, rather than believe all the crap Capcom USA spews. Saiki knows his street fighter. The guy knows what he's talking 'bout & Clay has the right idea, himself. I think I'll stick 'round for a while. Peace out. Btw, how goes your FAQ, Saiki? Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:10:2001 02:22 AM: I really would love to see Gill revamped, myself. Like I said, I really like his character concept and he looks cool when he doesn't have those god AWFUL clashing colors.... it's just a shame that odds are Capcom won't realize that or even if they did, they wouldn't have him reappear anyway. Well, I suppose the Alex Gill connotations gives hope... Posted by Golden Dragon on 10:10:2001 02:41 AM: This is irrelevant to the Gill topic, but I looked up vega's supposed full name on the net & found quite a few matches. It must be pretty common. Chances are "Vega Fabio De Cerna," is probably from a manga or the SF2V anime, NOT making it official. I've read that it's Vega's official Americanized name & that his full name's "Balrog Fabio La Selda" in SF Victory over in Japan. Any thoughts, Clay, Saiki? Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:10:2001 02:47 AM: Isn't SF Victory like... one of the last things you'd want to take canon, anyway? Just look at their Cammy... :P Posted by Golden Dragon on 10:10:2001 02:57 AM: heheh, true dat. Posted by Clay on 10:10:2001 05:23 AM: I'm thinking that it's just Balrog. I don't trust any Anime or Manga because they just plain aren't official. I've never heard Capcom of Japan refer to him as anything other than Balrog. By the way, it's nice to meet you, Golden Dragon. -Clay Posted by Azrael-sama on 10:10:2001 06:44 AM: On the topic of last names, does Chun-Li have an official one? I've heard a few tossed around, but nothing I'd take too seriously. I also heard a last name for Ryu somewhere...but that's gotta be fake. The name was believeable, but I don't think Capcom has ever referred to Ryu as anything but Ryu. -Az Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:10:2001 06:47 AM: I heard that Ryu's last name was Hoshi. Or Hoshii. The translation from Japanese to English might give it multiple spellings. No clue if it's canon or not, though. I'm 60% of the belief leaning towards that it's canon, but 60% is far from me being sure or certain. Posted by Clay on 10:10:2001 07:43 AM: I'm going to jump on this one right away. It's Ryu, plain and simple. His name matches his straightforward personality and no-frills attitude. Ryu does NOT have a last name. He is an orphan, so it makes sense. There isn't any back round information on his family, so it is understandable that he doesn't know/have a last name. Makes perfect sense to me. A really good question would be: How come Goutetsu, Gouken, and Gouki don't have last names? Capcom usually doesn't provide last names for a lot of their characters, but I don't know if these guys have the same excuse that Ryu has. It doesn't matter really, because I prefer the fact that they only have one name. It makes them stand out more and creates a legendary aura around them. It's like saying that he's THE Gouki, or the THE Goutetsu. It kind of gives them some sort of elite status. I hate it when people use Hoshi, because Capcom of Japan never uses this name. I don't understand why some people insist on using it. I hate to bring up the SF movie again, but that is where Hoshi originated from (I think). Everybody agrees that the movie holds absolutely no relevance to the SF Universe, but I still see people cling to that name. I still can't figure out why some people remeber that name. I've always tried to forget everything about the movie entirely, and I would assume that most everybody else would do the same. How Hoshi has stuck around boggles the mind. Az: I've heard people say that Chun's full name is Chun Li Xiang. I'm pretty sure that this is not official. I don't think that Capcom has ever verified it. I think that Chun definitely needs a last name, and hopefully Capcom will figure something out. -Clay PS I hate to harp on it, but I really can't stand hearing people give Ryu a name based on the movie (live action). We all know it sucked, we all know that it was totally inaccurate, so why has this name stuck around. Is there some backing to it that I don't know about? If so, clue me in about it. Why people would borrow info from the movie is so far beyond me that words cannot explain it. Anyway, enough ranting. Posted by Ultima on 10:10:2001 07:52 AM: quote: Originally posted by Clay Az: I've heard people say that Chun's full name is Chun Li Xiang. I'm pretty sure that this is not official. I don't think that Capcom has ever verified it. I think that Chun definitely needs a last name, and hopefully Capcom will figure something out. Seeing that Xiang (or Zang, or however the hell you spell it) also comes from the crummy (yet hilarious!) SF movie, I would think that it's most definitely not official. And yeah, Ryu has no last name either AFAIK. It's definitely not Hoshi. I remember hearing another one a long time ago (one with many more syllables in it - something like shinnosuke), but it was probably bogus. *shrug* Oh, and that full name for Balrog/Vega has got to be bogus, because it literally translates into Balrog (or Vega) Fabio the Snake. A tad too conventient, don't you think? :/ Posted by Clay on 10:10:2001 08:22 AM: Ultima: >Seeing that Xiang (or Zang, or however the hell you spell it) also comes from the crummy (yet hilarious!) SF movie, I would think that it's most definitely not official.> So that name also came from the movie. I did not remember that. My question is why do people insist on using these names when the are obviously not accurate? Anybody who relies on the movie as a source of information is making a grave mistake. It would be the last place that I would ever go to for answers to SF questions (basically because they make everything up). I've never heard of that other last name for Ryu, so I can't comment on it. Yeah, that Vega name would be suspiciously convenient, but it reminds me of his nickname in the SF2 anime, the Mad Anaconda. I thought that that name was pretty cool. Thanks for the reply. -Clay Posted by Siegfried on 10:10:2001 11:07 AM: Yes, Chun-Li needs a last name... have you noticed how SNK have been slacking off with last names lately as well? Does anyone of the 99'- cast have last names except Kula Diamond (which is silly anyway)? And why doesn't Haohmaru (and Nakoruru and Rimururu for that matter) have last names? All other characters in those games have them. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:10:2001 01:08 PM: Ah... so it's from the movie? ......eeeeeeeeeew. Yuck. Note to self. Never mention it again. I see the freaking thing EVERYWHERE though... blah. Yuck... ACK! Posted by Lantis on 10:10:2001 01:59 PM: Siegfried: Don't forget Hinako Shijou (KOF 2000 and 2001) and Jhun Hoon (KOF '99 and 2000). My guess is that the new characters with one names (K', Whip, Maxima, Bao) have some obscure past, and considering that 3 of them were NESTS agents, they could have gone with code names, like Krizalid and Zero...I guess only Kula breaks that traidition... Posted by Golden Hell on 10:10:2001 02:51 PM: Hey Golden Dragon. How's it going, man? Not to harp on that Van Damme movie, but I am almost certain that Hoshi came from the SF live action movie. If people are gonna keep saying Ryu Hoshi then they might as well be calling the others by their movie names - William Guile, Viktor Sagat (ugh), Carlos Blanka, and whatever else the makers of that movie came up with. OK, I've said my peace. Now, with Gill, I pretty much agree with everybody else. He would have been much cooler as the final boss if he kept his robes on. It just gives him a certain dignified look. (It'd be like fighting the Street Preacher from Johnny Mneumonic - hehehe) I also think it would have been pretty cool to fight Urien in his suit. I guess I'm just not a fan of the diaper/thong look. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:10:2001 03:01 PM: I myself am a very VERY big fan of suits or variations on them *sideways glance at Mature and Vice* I just like the whole dignity thing, and the suit makes me get into the character more because besides fighting attire, it's something I can actually picture people wearing around normally when they're living their casual life. Not that that pertains to fighting games much, but we're talking about storyline here, not actual fighting, right now:P Too bad Super Street Fighter Turbo was like... the last game where you really got to see characters wearing alternate outfits within their endings. There were a couple instances in later games (Chun Li wearing a suit in SFA1 or 2 ending) but SSFT or which ever SF2 it was had the most. Even Vega (Balrog) in a suit which really suits the whole dignified beauty thing and... LOL, Balrog (M. Bison) in what seems to be a pimp outfit XD Dunno if SFIII games had endings like that though since I didn't get to actually SEE most SFIII endings. Just read them. Erm... ahem. Yea, anyway, Gill in another outfit would be good. Posted by Clay on 10:10:2001 07:01 PM: quote: Originally posted by Golden Hell Not to harp on that Van Damme movie, but I am almost certain that Hoshi came from the SF live action movie. If people are gonna keep saying Ryu Hoshi then they might as well be calling the others by their movie names - William Guile, Viktor Sagat (ugh), Carlos Blanka, and whatever else the makers of that movie came up with. OK, I've said my peace. This is exactly what I'm saying. It makes no sense whatsoever for anybody to use these names, yet I see them everywhere. Why would people accept these as official? Like I said before, anybody who relies on the movie for SF info needs to think twice about where it's coming from. Not only did the writers of the movie screw up the aforementioned character names, but they also screwed up countless others (Dr. Dhalsim, anybody? wtf?). Anyway, thinking about this just makes me laugh so I guess that I've said my peace. Man, how did Capcom ever let this thing come into existence? Tiamat: I can't think of too many character endings where somebody dresses in a different outfit. Urien wheres his suit in his ending, and Ryu and the rest of the cast where shirts/uniforms proclaiming that they are part of Hugo and Poison's gang in Hugo's ending. Also, I think that you see Ibuki wearing different clothes in her ending as well. I think that everbody else is in their fighting attire. I just remembered that Elena is wearing different clothing when she travels to Japan and France, and if it matters, Remy doesn't have his shirt on in his ending. That's about it. I think that it's pretty funny that Dudley still has his boxing gloves on in his ending. How does he cut roses while still wearing his boxing gloves? It looks really out of place. -Clay PS Could the live action movie have butured Nash (Charlie) and Blanka's story any more than they did. Nash should be dead, he definitely isn't mexican (spanish?), his name is NOT Carlos, and he is obviosly not Blanka. Also, the part about Blanka being created by Shadoloo is absolute bunk! Why would Dhalsim work for Shadoloo? Since when was he a doctor? I could go on, but I think that everybody has gotten the gist of what I'm saying. One last thing: Does anybody remember the look on Zangief's face when he finally figures out that Shadoloo is evil? Priceless. "Bison is the bad guy?!?" Posted by Clay on 10:10:2001 07:38 PM: Apologies to Azrael for my last post. I know I said that I wouldn't mention the live-action movie, but I needed it to prove my point. People need to understand how rediculous it is. On the topic of last names: I would like to see Capcom provide full names for every character that has a place in society. People like Ryu and Oro don't need a last name because they either have no reason for having one, or could get by without one. How do people like Vega (Balrog) and Chun Li go through life with out a last name. Just give us something. Actually, while we're at it, some nice bios could be provided. Nothing spectacular, but height, weight, blood type, birth date...etc. would be nice. Think SF2. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:10:2001 07:55 PM: Don't most of the SFA3 characters have their height and weight listed somewhere, at least? I know for a fact that Cammy and Juli are bloodtype B, and Juni is blood type AB, or something like that. Cammy weighs like... 106 pounds in SFA3, Juni 101, and Juli 109. Juni and Cammy are 5'3" while Juli is 5'4". Unless those FAQs at Gamefaqs pulled those numbers out of a hat randomly (Sakura is 5'2" and 92 pounds Oo That is one very very very thin girl). Cammy's birthdate was somewhere in January according to her dogtag thingy, I think, but that's about it. Posted by Clay on 10:10:2001 09:16 PM: Tiamat: Are you going to assume that those are accurate? Some of them may be, but there are some contradictions. I have forgotten most of the specific details, but I can think of one major blunder, off the top of my head. Ryu is, for all intensive purposes, the main character of the SF Universe. If any characters were given accurate bio’s then it would certainly be Ryu. SFA3 list Ryu as 5’7". SF2 lists Ryu as 5’10". This makes sense, Alpha comes before SF2, so Ryu has time to grow, right? Wrong. SF2 lists Ryu’s birth date as 7-21-64. This means that Ryu is 23 during SF, mid-20’s during the Alpha series, and 28 during SF2. How can he grow 3” after the age of 25? Has Capcom changed Ryu’s birth date? Considering the way that Capcom drew Ryu in SF1 and Alpha, it would make sense, but until we are told otherwise, we have to use the SF2 information. Besides, Ryu does look 34 in SF3 (though I suppose he could be younger). If you say that this is a fluke, then why is the same true for Ken? I don’t even want to mention Gouki at this point. If the information for the main character of the game out of wack, don’t you think that that could screw up other aspects of the story as well? I'm sure that if I checked both SFA and SF2, I could find other errors. My original request was for Capcom to give us an official bio on the characters so that they could clear up this mess. This could be released any time, even at the next SF game. It’s obvious that there are some mistakes, and it would be nice for Capcom to rectify their errors. Are the SF2 bio’s outdated? Have they been replaced with newer information? Or is the Alpha info just an oversight on Capcom’s part? What are we supposed to go by? Let us know what is official and what isn’t. It would just be easier to release a listing of bio’s for all of the characters at this point. SF3 never had any listings that I am aware of. It’s such a minor detail, it shouldn’t be much trouble for Capcom to fix this. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:10:2001 10:27 PM: quote: Originally posted by Clay Tiamat: Are you going to assume that those are accurate? Some of them may be, but there are some contradictions. I have forgotten most of the specific details, but I can think of one major blunder, off the top of my head. Ryu is, for all intensive purposes, the main character of the SF Universe. If any characters were given accurate bio’s then it would certainly be Ryu. SFA3 list Ryu as 5’7". SF2 lists Ryu as 5’10". This makes sense, Alpha comes before SF2, so Ryu has time to grow, right? Wrong. SF2 lists Ryu’s birth date as 7-21-64. This means that Ryu is 23 during SF, mid-20’s during the Alpha series, and 28 during SF2. How can he grow 3” after the age of 25? Has Capcom changed Ryu’s birth date? Considering the way that Capcom drew Ryu in SF1 and Alpha, it would make sense, but until we are told otherwise, we have to use the SF2 information. Besides, Ryu does look 34 in SF3 (though I suppose he could be younger). If you say that this is a fluke, then why is the same true for Ken? I don’t even want to mention Gouki at this point. If the information for the main character of the game out of wack, don’t you think that that could screw up other aspects of the story as well? I'm sure that if I checked both SFA and SF2, I could find other errors. My original request was for Capcom to give us an official bio on the characters so that they could clear up this mess. This could be released any time, even at the next SF game. It’s obvious that there are some mistakes, and it would be nice for Capcom to rectify their errors. Are the SF2 bio’s outdated? Have they been replaced with newer information? Or is the Alpha info just an oversight on Capcom’s part? What are we supposed to go by? Let us know what is official and what isn’t. It would just be easier to release a listing of bio’s for all of the characters at this point. SF3 never had any listings that I am aware of. It’s such a minor detail, it shouldn’t be much trouble for Capcom to fix this. -Clay Um... oreo? That's why I included the disclaimer that maybe the numbers were pulled out of a hat and why the first sentence of my post was phrased as a question. Heh, I make it a point to include a back door disclaimer whenever I'm quoting something I'm not sure about^^ Besides, of course, you know me. I only track the numbers for Cammy, really :P ....Okay, I don't even do that, really. :P Posted by Saiki on 10:10:2001 10:33 PM: Golden Dragon Hey man, nice to see you here. Hows things going? All SFZ3 characters have their height, weight, blood type, BWH, likes/dislikes and hobbies listed in their bio's. And another note. The SF2 chars bio's weren't changed from SF2 to SFZ. Ryu was 175cm in SF2 and is 175cm in SFZ3. Now I don't know what changes Capcom USA made though....... Since I'm at it, here's what the bio's for the chars that were listed here Ryu Birthday: 1964 July 21 Height: 175cm Weight: 68kg BWH sizes: B110, W81, H85 Blood type: O Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Can sleep anywhere, Hitch hiking Likes: Youkan Dislikes: Spiders Fighting Style: Ansatsuken Cammy White Birthday: 1974 January 6 Height: 164cm Weight: 46kg BWH sizes: B86, W57, H88 Blood type: B Birthplace: ? Special Skill: ? Likes: Collecting data from fights (Shadowloo) Cats (Delta Red) Dislikes: Sympathy (Shadowloo) Anything when she's pissed off (Delta Red) Fighting Style: Shadowloo elite special force techniques Juli Height: 164cm Weight: 49kg BWH sizes: B92, W59, H84 Blood type: B Birthplace: Mexico Special Skill: Unknown Likes: Unknown Dislikes: Unknown Fighting Style: Shadowloo elite special force techniques Juni Height: 162cm Weight: 46kg BWH sizes: B84, W56, H83 Blood type: AB Birthplace: Germany Special Skill: Unknown Likes: Unknown Dislikes: Unknown Fighting Style: Shadowloo elite special force techniques Sakura Kasugano Height: 158cm Weight: 42kg BWH sizes: B80, W60, H84 Blood type: A Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Speaking english, cooking Likes: Gym class(track & field), white rice Dislikes: Math, playing videogames with her brother Fighting Style: Ansatsuken Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:10:2001 10:40 PM: Ryu dislikes spiders and Sakura dislikes playing videogames with her brother? Oo ....Sakura has a brother? @@ ...BWAHAHAHA! Oh yea, I heard about the spider thing before... can't believe I'd miss something like Sakura's brother though so I guess I just didn't see that one. Whoa, looking at the measurements, I never knew that Cammy had such an hourglass figure Oo So Juli was born in Mexico? I wonder if Capcom did end up making a relation for her to T. Hawk in some manner then if that's the case. Though... really, like Noembelu, she's too young to be his girlfriend and too old to be his daughter, I think... That translates to about 101 pounds for Juni and 109 for Juli? Dagnabbit, I need a metric system chart... Posted by Saiki on 10:10:2001 10:47 PM: Well, Juli's birthplace was suppossed to be Germany but since Capcom kinda made her T Hawk's sister,friend,relative, her birthplace got changed in the process. Most likely Capcom will change it back to Germany IF the dolls ever appear again. Posted by Lantis on 10:10:2001 11:36 PM: My name is the metric man! RYU Height: 5'7" Weight: 150 lbs. CAMMY Height: 5'4" Weight: 101 lbs. JULI Height: 5'4" Weight: 108 lbs. JUNI Height: 5'3" Weight: 101 lbs. SAKURA Height: 5'2" Weight: 93 lbs. And there you have it! Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:10:2001 11:41 PM: Cool, thanks, Lantis and Saiki^^ Heh, yea, I didn't pay attention to the numbers for Cammy. I got her weight and height completely wrong, LOL. Juli and Juni's were close enough, though. Maybe Juli's (and Sakura's) was probably just a rounding error on my or the FAQ's part. Whoa, I didn't realize that Cammy was thinner than Juni (in terms of height to weight ratio) Posted by Azrael-sama on 10:10:2001 11:49 PM: Clay: lol, don't worry about it. Bashing the SF movie is fun! It helps the healing process, y'know. I didn't know Xiang and Hoshi were from the movie. But then again, I remember so little about it (as it should be...). They gave Sagat a name?! Victor Sagat?! Aw geez. Yeah, that movie sucks like hell. Aside from Dr. Dhalsim and Carlos Blanka, what really gets me is how Honda suddenly became Hawaiian, and how he and Balrog suddenly became reporters for Chun-Li. As someone else in this thread mentioned, how in the hell does Bison ruin someone's sumo/boxing career anyway?! Honda/Balrog: Hey, you just ruined my career! Why?! Bison: Dunno...just felt like it..? But the worst has to be Ryu, Ken, and Sagat. The three greatest martial artists in the world, pinnacles of focus, dedication, and hard work, reduced to two con-artists and a weapons dealer. ARGHJLIHLKIHKAJNKDSFSDUHF!! Ahem, anyway, yeah, Capcom owes us a huge bio sheet, to fix the loopholes once and for all. That would be really nice. That and a Street Fighter movie. No, we don't already have one. What, you mean that crap with Van Damme? That doesn't count. That's gotta be a do-over or something. But, isn't Guile's first name William, despite the SF movie? Saiki - thanks for the bios! Do you have any more? LOL, it's funny to hear that Ryu, one of the most powerful men in the world, is afraid of spiders. Guess we have something in common. It's just kinda odd though. Especially for a guy who hitchhikes and sleeps outside so much. "Wha...what's that...a spider?! Damnit! Shinkuu...." -Az Posted by Lantis on 10:11:2001 02:40 AM: Ryu must have one helluva time fighting Spider-Man in the Versus games! *Spider-Man face is seen on a spotlight on the floor. Soon after, Spider-Man drops in from above, hanging upside from his spíder web* Spider-Man: SHOWTIME! Oh, hi Ryu! How's the life of fighting been treatin' ya? Ryu: Well, I...WAAAAAAAA! Spider-Man: Wha?! What's the matter? Ryu: A SPIDER!!!! DIEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! Spider-Man: Wait...uh? Can we talk this over a cup of coffee? Ryu: SHINKUU...HADDOOOOOOOKEN!! *Huge beam shoots out to the skies, and Spider-Man is sent to the moon. Ryu is left trembling* Ryu: ....ha...ha...ha...I HATE HATE HATE spiders!!!! Venom: Hello! Hey, where's Spidey? Ryu: WAAAAAAA! An UGLY spider!!!!! Venom: Talking to me, headband boy in weird pajamas? Ryu: SHIN...SHORYUKEN!!!!!! *Venom is sent whistling to the skies* Posted by Clay on 10:11:2001 03:36 AM: Saiki- Excellent bios. I cannot stress this enough. Thank you, thank you, thank you! I guess that Cap USA has screwed me over again. In the American copies of SFA3 Ryu and Ken are both listed as 5’7”, but in their SF2 bios, Cap USA says their 5’10”. This is exactly the kind of information that I want to see. I guess that I now have one more reason to hate Cap USA (like they needed to give me another one). Quick question: In my copy of A3 Gouki is listed as 5’8”. Is he really this… short? In a lot of pictures that I have seen of him, he looks a lot more imposing. Also that A2 cover of him and Ryu standing face to face (more like face to chest) makes him look like he has a good 8-10 inches on Ryu. So how tall is he really? Can you provide us with any more bios? I’d really appreciate it. Thanks in advance. PS My copy of A3 list Ryu at 143 lbs. and Ken at either 149 or 159 (his SF2 bio from Cap USA says he weighs 169). I’m guessing that these numbers are totally off as well. Infernal Cap USA, always having to ruin any semblance of continuity in the SF Universe, even if it is as trivial as character bios, they just can’t seem to get anything right. *Gets paranoid* Sometimes I think that they do this just to piss me and other SF fans off. J/K. There, I’ve blasted them enough for now, so I feel a little better. Saiki, if you can take any requests for future bios, I definitely want to see Sagat’s. I could rattle off a whole list of names, but I’ll take whatever you can provide. Tiamat: I didn’t mean to sound like I was correcting you. I just wanted to say that I wasn’t sure if all of A3’s numbers were accurate. As it turns out, they aren’t (at least the American version’s). Any mistakes aren’t really our fault since we don’t seem to get any help from Cap USA. Actually, they are more of a hindrance than anything else. Blame Cap USA! Az: Your right, it is positive therapy to rip on that movie. Anyway, I’m pretty sure that it is still Guile, no William. I have only heard William used in the movie, and that terrible Saturday morning cartoon. I carry a high level of disdain for both of these SF based products. His name stands as Guile. Lantis: Thanks for the conversions. I was about to whip out a calculator when I scrolled down and saw that you had already done it for me, and for this, I salute you. About Ryu and Spiders I think that it is hilarious, even though I totally can relate to it (I wouldn’t say that I’m arachnophobic, but there’s just something about them that I hate). I never imagined seeing somebody who spends so much time outdoors to dislike something like that. Not only do I think that it is pretty cool, but it makes Ryu seem a little more human. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:11:2001 03:56 AM: I saw a post on Shoryuken a long while back (before I registered) about Guile's first name being William. A whole bunch of people debated it for about 3 pages of posts before it was finally decided that there was no evidence whatsoever to prove that his name was actually William Guile. I believe that there's a FAQ at gamefaqs with the bios somewhere where things are measured via the metric system. I dunno if it's based on Capcom USA or Capcom Japan, though. Posted by RagingAkuma on 10:11:2001 05:08 AM: quote: Originally posted by Lantis Ryu must have one helluva time fighting Spider-Man in the Versus games! *Spider-Man face is seen on a spotlight on the floor. Soon after, Spider-Man drops in from above, hanging upside from his spíder web* Spider-Man: SHOWTIME! Oh, hi Ryu! How's the life of fighting been treatin' ya? Ryu: Well, I...WAAAAAAAA! Spider-Man: Wha?! What's the matter? Ryu: A SPIDER!!!! DIEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! Spider-Man: Wait...uh? Can we talk this over a cup of coffee? Ryu: SHINKUU...HADDOOOOOOOKEN!! *Huge beam shoots out to the skies, and Spider-Man is sent to the moon. Ryu is left trembling* Ryu: ....ha...ha...ha...I HATE HATE HATE spiders!!!! Venom: Hello! Hey, where's Spidey? Ryu: WAAAAAAA! An UGLY spider!!!!! Venom: Talking to me, headband boy in weird pajamas? Ryu: SHIN...SHORYUKEN!!!!!! *Venom is sent whistling to the skies* If it were Venom it would be more along the lines of, "Talking to us..." Posted by Clay on 10:11:2001 05:09 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Ryu Birthday: 1964 July 21 Height: 175cm Weight: 68kg BWH sizes: B110, W81, H85 Blood type: O Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Can sleep anywhere, Hitch hiking Likes: Youkan Dislikes: Spiders Fighting Style: Ansatsuken As a demonstration of how much I despise Cap USA, I’m going to dissect this Bio and give Cap USA’s version of it. Thanks to Saiki once again for providing the Bio. Keep it up! 1. Name: Ryu- Well, at least they have gotten this part right, as long as they don’t mention Hoshi. Even though Cap USA can get Ryu’s name right, they do have a tendency to change other character’s names for various reasons (legal and otherwise). Nash, Gouki, and the Shadoloo trio come to mind. 2. Birthday: Also one of the few characteristics that Cap USA hasn’t changed. 3. Height: Cap USA says that Ryu is 5’7” in A3 and then says that he magically grows to 5’10” in SF2. Since the SF2 info is older, I’m assuming that it is outdated, and has effectively been replaced by the Alpha stats. If 5’10” is incorrect than I can only guess that Capcom (USA) made him taller so that he could better fit in with our averages. 5’7” is a bit on the small side in the US. 4. Weight: Cap USA once again gives us two sets of numbers: 143 lbs. in Alpha and 150 lbs. in SF2. Not that big of a deal. 5. BWH: Looked it up on the only SF2 game available to me at this time, seems to be an accurate conversion. Question for Saiki: Are these stats in writing, or are they pictured in game? As far as I know Cap USA only gives these measurements in game. 6. Blood type: Unchanged. 7. Birthplace: No brainer, unchanged. 8. Special Interest: Cap USA never mentions this. It’s a nice feature, so why was it left out? 9. Likes: Another stat that has been looked over. By the way, can anybody fill me in on what Youkan actually is? I’m not familiar with it. 10. Dislikes: Yet another ignored topic. 11. Fighting Style: Listed as Shotokan Karate. I don’t think that Cap USA is familiar with the back round info on Ryu’s style at all. What a shame. See page one of this thread for a summary. Personal Thoughts Saiki: Ryu appears to be larger than his given dimensions, but I guess that he is just really well built. I wish that this info was made more readily available to the American consumers, because, a bunch of it was left out. Can you let me know what Youkan is? I don’t think that I have ever heard of it. Cap USA seems to have no knowledge of Ansatsu-ken or the Killing Intent. This is a very large part of Ryu’s beginnings. How a company could alter the main character’s back round so much is beyond me. In case anybody is curious, I went over the differences in their (Cap USA) story on pages one and two of this thread. It is totally different, and almost unrecognizable. Sakura Yeah, in fact take a look at Alpha 2 again. Her BG is in the backyard of a home in Japan. In it you can see a little boy playing video games. I believe that that is her little brother. I think that he moves differently based on who is getting hit and who wins. I don’t know why I remember this, but I remember hearing that Sakura had a little bro a long time ago and just made the connection. Saiki: Sakura’s fighting style is also considered Ansatsu-ken? I thought that maybe they would have given it a different name considering that it is a dumbed-down version of a weaker version of true Ansatsu-ken. Is Dan listed as using Ansatsu-ken or Saikyo-ryuu? If he is listed as using Saikyo-ryuu, then why isn’t Sakura? She did “train” with him (sort of). -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:11:2001 05:37 AM: I'm not sure how much Sakura trained with Dan. When Dan says to Blanka that she's his apprentice, she thinks to herself, "I am?" Pocket Fighter is not to be taken for canon, of course, but in that game, Dan's actually seeking to make Sakura his student. After he defeats her for his ending, they train for a very brief moment before Sakura runs off leaving him a letter telling him she thinks Saikyo Ryo is a silly weak fighting style. At any rate, Sakura's style really isn't that similar to Dan's. If I had to guess, I'd say that she tags along with him for some wierd reason but they never really trained together that much (mainly because Dan never did get to start up his dojo, I imagine). At least... her fighting style isn't that similar to Saikyo, is it? Hehe, a running joke among some Dan fans is that Sakura is actually a Dan fangirl because she keeps following him around despite how she won't train under him. Since she doesn't seem to care to train under him, then she must be following him around because she really likes him!!! Posted by Saiki on 10:11:2001 05:46 AM: Azrael-sama The reason why Ryu hates spiders is actually pretty funny. One time when he was sleeping in the woods, a spider came along. Ryu was sleeping with his mouth wide open, so the spider decided to build a web inside Ryu's mouth. When Ryu woke up, he found a spider and a spider web in his mouth. Hence, why he hates spiders. Clay Here's Gouki and Sagat bio's Gouki Height: 178cm Weight: 80kg BWH sizes: B118, W84, H86 Blood type: Unknown Birthplace: Unknown Special Skill: Unknown Likes: Unknown Dislikes: Unknown Fighting Style: Ansatsuken Sagat Birthday: 1955 July 2 Height: 226cm Weight: 109kg BWH sizes: B140, W87, H95 Blood type: B Birthplace: Thailand Special Skill: Diving under water(able to stay under water for over 20min) Likes: Strong opponents Dislikes: People who do small things Fighting Style: Muei Thai And about Sakura's style being Ansatsuken and not Saikyoyuu. One of the reasons is Dan never trained Sakura. Sakura learned the moves by herself. Dan just goes around telling everyone that he taught her everything she knows(think Mr. Satan and Majin Boo from DBZ). And also, because Sakura has learned how to use the power of the Hado, she would be classified in the same style as Ryu and Ken. Oh yeah, Sakura is with Dan alot because Dan can speak alot of languages. She's just using him as a translator. BTW, Youkan is a special kind of treat in Japan. I don't know of anything even remotely close to Youkan in America. Oh yeah, if any of you guys have time, take a look at the attachment that I have on here. I made a pic of Retsu vs Gouken. I got the Gouken sprite off of a Japanese site. I made Retsu though. I think it turned out pretty good. Tell me what you guys think. Posted by Saiki on 10:11:2001 05:51 AM: Hmmm. why isn't the attachment here? Or is it that I just can't see it. Try this again. Hopes this works........ Posted by Lantis on 10:11:2001 06:13 AM: For the record... AKUMA Height: 5'8" Weight: 176 lbs. SAGAT Height: 7'4" Weight: 240 lbs. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:11:2001 06:21 AM: Ooooo, updated Retsu? But... nope, can't see the attachment Have a URL to upload it to? She's using Dan as a TRANSLATOR?!? ...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! XD XD How devious of her... this is some really fun stuff, though Posted by Clay on 10:11:2001 06:33 AM: Edit: Lantis already beat me to the conversions. I wasn’t logged on so I had to re-type my post. He’s just too fast. Sorry if these are redundant. Saiki: Thanks for the bios. I’ll follow Lantis’ lead and post the english conversions. Gouki Height: 5’8” Weight: 176 lbs. Sagat Height: 7’4” Weight: 240 lbs. So Gouki really is that small, it just sounds weird to me. He is quite a good deal more muscular than Ken and Ryu, though. That bit of info on Sagat about diving is really cool. Kind of explains his SFA2 ending when he uppercuts out of the water. Neat feature. This is the kind of stuff that I wish Cap USA would share with us. Thanks again, Saiki! I was just playing devil’s advocate with Sakura and her fighting style. I would understand if Capcom had given her a different name, but I guess that she has developed her Hadou-ken well enough to garner the name (despite the fact that her Sho-oken and Shunpu-kyaku vary greatly from true Ansatsu-ken). I guess Dan does have some usefulness to him after all. Besides being an excellent joke character, he does have some minor story implications as well. Not only does he teach Blanka how to speak English, and have a rivalry with Sagat (which helps Sagat realize the error in his own hatred), but he also serves as a chaperon for Sakura. I always wondered how a teenage girl could get away with traveling the world as a streetfighter. With Dan around, she can use him to gain access to tournaments and the like that she would not normally have. PS I can’t see your link yet. I’m really looking forward to seeing this. Retsu is one of those great obscure characters that I think is pretty cool. He may have been a boring fighter in SF1, but I like his connections to Gouken. Can’t wait to see it. -Clay Posted by Ultima on 10:11:2001 06:53 AM: quote: Originally posted by Lantis For the record... AKUMA Height: 5'8" Weight: 176 lbs. 178 cm doesn't translate into 5'8". It's 5'10". 226 cm is closer to 7'5" Here's a place I found to convert to and from metric units: http://www.admiralmetals.com/metric_conv.htm Convert from cm to inches instead of feet for height; if you convert to feet, you'll get 5.8 feet for Gouki's height, but that's not 5'8" - it's 70 inches, or 5'10". Likewise, 175 cm for Ryu gives a result of roughly 69 inches (68.879 to be more precise) , which is 5'9". Posted by Clay on 10:11:2001 07:39 AM: quote: Originally posted by Ultima Here's a place I found to convert to and from metric units: http://www.admiralmetals.com/metric_conv.htm Yeah, Ultima’s right on that one. Ugh, I made the same mistake as well (someone hasn’t taken any math or chem courses for a while ). Anyway, at 5’10” Gouki is still rather small. I always pictured him as a beast. As for Ryu, I’m still a good 3-4 inches taller than him, and about the same weight. That also seems odd, because I am rather scrawny where as Ryu is considerably more muscular. With Ryu measured at 5’9”, it helps prove my point about Cap USA even moreso. Both of the heights that they gave for him (5’7” and 5’10”) were incorrect. Can they get anything right? The new heights should read as follows: Ryu Height: 5’9” Gouki Height: 5’10” Sagat Height: 7’5” Juli and Cammy are both at 5’4½” while Juni is about 5’3¾”. Sakura is just over 5’2”. I'm assuming that Ken is also 5'9", because Cap USA has always listed the same height for both Ryu and Ken. Can I trust them on this one? You can really see why the English system is such a pain to use. It really makes things more complicated than they should be. Saiki: That story about Ryu and the spider is a riot. I don’t know what I would do if I ever woke up with one in my mouth. It isn’t that far off base either, since spiders have been known to crawl down people’s throats while they slept. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:11:2001 12:26 PM: I always saw Akuma as average height, myself. Maybe that's cause for the longest time now, they gave him like... the vitality of a piece of paper which makes it hard for me to picture him as a tall person. I mean, in SFA3 it wasn't so bad, but low vitality like that in later games... like MvC2... even if that game isn't canon storyline, it's hard for me to picture Akuma as tall when he withstands as much as Roll and Servbot. Posted by Zazzarius on 10:11:2001 02:06 PM: i've always wondered, does Dan have any living relatives? i heard once that Ran in Project Justice is his sister not really sure about that Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:11:2001 03:26 PM: Dan has a sister in XMen vs Street Fighter, I believe. Or Marvel Super Heros VS Street Fighter. Whatever. His ending is a parody on Art of Fighting where his sister who looks exactly like Yuri from Art of Fighting stops him from killing Gouki, saying that Gouki is their [father]. Of course, Akuma is NOT his father and this is a joke ending completely. It's a VS game, after all. However, Dan having a sister in this game even if it was just for the purpose of blatantly mocking Art of Fighting (which it did a good job of, LOL), it has led many to believe that Dan actually DOES have a sister. Whether this is true or not, I dunno. Then when people thought Dan had a sister, they looked around for her, and hey, what do ya know? Not only does Rival Schools take place during the SFAlpha timeline where Dan's story takes place too, but there's also a girl there named Ran (Ran and Dan) who's last name is Hibiki!!!! She's also extremely confident in herself as well as really flashy (even if it's mainly with the flash on her camera) and cheerful, so there's definately a personality resemblance. Heck, she even screams "SAIKYO!" in one of her victory poses, I believe. This has led many to believe that Ran is Dan's sister. Many others believe that her last name is just a coincidence, which is a perfectly plausible and reasonable belief to have. In the end, however, all of this is just circumstantial evidence, and there's no hard proof that Ran is Dan's sister. Course, I don't think there's any hard proof that she isn't, either... Posted by Clay on 10:11:2001 05:02 PM: Tiamat: quote: I always saw Akuma as average height, myself. Maybe that's cause for the longest time now, they gave him like... the vitality of a piece of paper which makes it hard for me to picture him as a tall person. I mean, in SFA3 it wasn't so bad, but low vitality like that in later games... like MvC2... even if that game isn't canon storyline, it's hard for me to picture Akuma as tall when he withstands as much as Roll and Servbot. I know what you are saying about his weak defense. In 3s, he takes the most, or close to the most damage out of any character. He also has the shortest stun gauge. However, this is done to balance off his character so that he isn’t too overpowering. It’s the only way to make him a “fair” character to select (especially for tournaments). So I wouldn’t necessarily take his terrible defense to heart. I don’t think that 5’10” is too short; in the back of my mind I had assumed that he was around this height because the American version of A3 lists him at 5’8”. However, a lot the artwork that I have seen of him portrays him to be little larger. I’m not saying that he has Sagat-like height, but I could see him being around 6’-6’3” (at least in some of the artwork). There is a picture from SFA2 of of Ryu and Gouki standing face to face. Gouki is hunched over and looking down at Ryu. It just looks like he has a couple inches on Ryu. Also, some of the sketches for Gouki in SSF2T make him look very intimidating. This doesn’t mean that he isn’t intimidating enough at 5’10”. I think that some of earlier artwork for Gouki (from the mid ‘90’s) makes him look taller and more filled out. -Clay Posted by Siegfried on 10:11:2001 05:06 PM: Saiki, do you think you could translate more of those bios? I feel that my bios at Fighter Mania are still based on the USA SSF2T manual, and might not be correct... The KoF games all have nice FAQs with everything translated, but very few Capcom FAQs have this kind of info, mainly because Capcom never translates anything... Oh, and keep using the metric system, much more convenient than this inch crap ^_^. Posted by Clay on 10:11:2001 05:30 PM: quote: Originally posted by Zazzarius i've always wondered, does Dan have any living relatives? i heard once that Ran in Project Justice is his sister not really sure about that As long as we're talking about Dan rumors I have a few that I would like to contribute. Note: The following is not official. It's purpose is for comedic value only. There are a lot of rumors about Dan. I've heard people say that they think that Akuma is his father (probably because of the ending that Tiamat mentioned). They said that Gouki is actually Dan's father who has been brought back from the dead. The reasoning behind this: -Dan has a move like the Shun Goku-Satsu in some of the vs. games -After Go was killed by Sagat, he was possessed by a demon and came back to life. People us the pictures of Dan's father from Pocket Fighter as proof of his knowing of the Shotokan (Ansatsuken) art. -Gouki=Go(Hibi)ki The other rumor that I have heard is more prevalent than the previous one, as well as little bit more believable. Many people believe that Dan and Donovan (Darkstalkers or Vampire Savior) are related. I don't believe that this has been made official. People sight looks as the main proof of this theory. Somebody also said that Dan and Donovan have the same jump kick attack. Depending on the version that you hear, Dan and Donovan are: brothers, cousins, father-son, and vice-versa. What's even funnier is that people try to use this as proof of Dan's relation to Gouki. Donovan's half vampire blood line is the same thing that turns Gouki "evil". On a more serious note, the Dan-Ran comparison is a very good one. I wonder if there is any relevance to this. -Clay Posted by Clay on 10:11:2001 06:33 PM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried Saiki, do you think you could translate more of those bios? I feel that my bios at Fighter Mania are still based on the USA SSF2T manual, and might not be correct... The KoF games all have nice FAQs with everything translated, but very few Capcom FAQs have this kind of info, mainly because Capcom never translates anything... Oh, and keep using the metric system, much more convenient than this inch crap ^_^. Yeah, I love seeing these bios. Saiki, keep posting what you can. I really enjoy seeing these. Also, I'm still looking forward to the Retsu vs. Gouken pic. I appreciate whatever you can give us. Thanks. -Clay Posted by Ultima on 10:11:2001 10:45 PM: quote: Originally posted by Clay As for Ryu, I’m still a good 3-4 inches taller than him, and about the same weight. That also seems odd, because I am rather scrawny where as Ryu is considerably more muscular. Well, I would like to point out that Capcom (of Japan)'s weight for most of their male characters are way off, based on the visual representation of their characters. Blanka's supposed to be 6'5" (that's his Sf2 height, last time I checked; might be slightly off), but he only weighs 216 lbs? RUBBISH. For the size that Blanka is, he should be weighing no less thn 300 lbs, minimum. Sagat is 7'5". Now, in Sf2 he could pass for a mere 240 lbs cause he was skinny, but the gigantic beast that is Alpha Sagat should be at LAST 350 lbs for that height, and probably should be closer to 400. Ryu's weight should be about 180 - 200 lbs, based on his height and build, etc. Come to think of it, many of their characters' heights are all wrong visually too. Vega (Balrog) is supposed to be 6'1" or 6'2", but when he stands at full height he's taller than Zangief, who's supposed tobe 7'. They always drawn Vega too tall. Honda's alpha sprite is also way too tall for his supposed 6'. Of course, this isn't just limited to SF games. The Marvel games are full of mis-sized characters, like Venom (supposed to be 5'11", or a little taller than Spiderman) and Sabretooth (supposed to be 6'6", or the same size as Cable), who are giants in their. Last time I checked, Juggernaut's official height was still 6'10" and HUlk's height was either 7' or 7'7", yet Juggy towers over Hulk in that game (stupid Rob Liefeld Juggernaut). I think SF3 is the only series where Capcom got the characters' sprites to properly match their heights. That Dan-Ran connection is cool. I don't believe it for a second, but it's cool. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:11:2001 10:48 PM: Wasn't an actual official picture of Go Hibiki existing? The one in Pocket Fighter is supposed to like, be just a joke, and the real Go Hibiki a Mui Thai fighter, right? Dan Ran... there are some people who really dislike the idea that she's related to him, but Ran is a lot less far fetched than Gouki or Donovan, even. The Saikyo shout especially, though like I said, as far as I know, there isn't any hard proof whatsoever at all^^ Whoa. How about Zangief when he stands straight up? He's still not as tall as Balrog/Vega? I never realized that... Oo Hehe, I still think 92 pounds is a ridiculously low amount for Sakura. At first I thought that the poor dolls were just underfed, but apparently they're quite normal seeing as to how ridiculously thin Sakura is and how as far as I know, she's officially not supposed to be anorexic... Posted by Saiki on 10:12:2001 02:33 AM: K, here's a link to the Retsu vs Gouken pic. http://www.geocities.com/saiki_selm/Retsu_vs_Gouken.gif I just want everyone to know that I didn't make Gouken. I just made Retsu. I kinda alterned Retsu's built and height quite a bit. He's more big and built.(I was influenced by Anji from Kenshin). Anyways, I also think that Gouki should have been a little bigger. At least 6'2". And Capcom has never been good at giving their characters the right look for the height and weight they give them. Like Honda.... Birthday: 1960 November 3 Height: 185cm Weight: 137kg BWH sizes: B212, W180, H210 Blood type: A Birthplace: Japan Likes: Bathing, Chanko Nabe (a kind of soup that sumo wrestlers eat) Dislikes: Indecision Fighting Style: Sumo Wrestling If he only weighed 137kg, he wouldn't be that fat. Or like Balrog Birthday: 1967 July 27 Height: 186cm Weight: 72kg BWH sizes: B121, W73, H83 Blood type: O Birthplace: Spain Special Skill: Climbing walls, being vain Likes: Beautiful things, himself Dislikes: ugly things, the blood of his opponent Fighting Style: Arranged Ninjitsu He's displayed WAY too tall. considering Adon and DeeJay... Adon Height: 182cm Weight: 73kg BWH sizes: B112, W80, H85 Blood type: B Birthplace: Thailand Special Skill: Waiku (a dance in Muei Thai) Likes: Muei Thai Dislikes: Sagat, people who can't backup what they say Fighting Style: Muei Thai DeeJay Birthday: 1965 October 31 Height: 184cm Weight: 92kg BWH sizes: B130, W89, H94 Blood type: AB Birthplace: Jamaica Special Skill: Dancing, Singing Likes: Shouting, Singing, Dancing Dislikes: Maturity Fighting Style: Kick-Boxing Balrog isn't much taller than Adon or DeeJay but looks like he's WAY taller. And somehow, Balrog is taller than Zangief... Birthday: 1956 June 1 Height: 214cm Weight: 121kg BWH sizes: B172, W133, H154 Blood type: A Birthplace: Russia Special Skill: Drinking Vodka, enduring the cold Likes: Wrestling, Kosacs dance Dislikes: projectiles, young beautiful women Fighting Style: Wrestling I think the only game that Capcom actually had believable proportions was Muscle Bomber series. Like Alexei/Biff Age: 26 Height: 192cm Weight: 120kg Birthplace: Russia or like Lucky Colt/Gunloc Age: 25 Height: 192cm Weight: 125kg Birthplace: Miami, America Fighting Style: Wrestling Oh yeah, I personally don't think that Ran and Dan are related. Mainly because Dan lived in thailand and Hong Kong for the most part of his life. If Ran was his sister, their would be no way that she could afford to goto a high school in Japan. Although theirs no proof that she is, there's no proof that she isn't either. Posted by Saiki on 10:12:2001 02:35 AM: Oh, for some reason the link won't work if you just click on it. At least for me. Copy and paste it, then it worked. I dunno how long it'll be there though.... BTW, I think that Zangief is gay, since he doesn't like young beautiful women....... Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:12:2001 02:59 AM: Whoa, holy cow. Oo Retsu looks like a monster there Oo I mean, in terms of height. Course, always did like big imposing monks... wonder what his official height is. That's an awesome pic, though^^ Vega/Balrog dislikes the blood of his opponent? Oo But... he tells Zangief, "I'm interested in seeing the color of your blood!" and I think he talks to Cammy about her blood, too. How... interesting a method of disliking something that is. Weeeee, there goes the whole Zangief xx R. Mika stuff! :P Zangief... would fit in with the 'gay steel worker' motif he sorta has going on with his SF2 stage? ....maybe I shouldn't be making assumptions. That's really wierd, though Oo Posted by Saiki on 10:12:2001 03:05 AM: Sorry my mistake. I didn't write the Balrog thing better. He loves the blood of his opponents. But he hates to get the blood of his opponents on himself. Posted by Clay on 10:12:2001 05:08 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Anyways, I also think that Gouki should have been a little bigger. At least 6'2". And Capcom has never been good at giving their characters the right look for the height and weight they give them. Exactly. Gouki looks huge in the artwork. Taller than 5’10” at least. I said before that 6’-6’3” looks accurate, but I could still see him being even a little taller than that. It’s not a very big deal, but the idea of me standing taller than Gouki seems flat out wrong. Ultima: Yeah, it seems a lot of the character stats are more than just a little off. Also, good point about the sprites. They don’t seem to fit at all. Also, Marvel artists take a ton of liberties with character heights. Juggy is only 6’10”?!? I would have never guessed this on my own. He usually looks gigantic! Sabertooth’s height seems to fluctuate depending on whether he is fighting or not. In normal clothes, Creed looks about right, but when he is in a battle, his mass seems to increase exponentially! Never understood that. About Venom; his increase in size may be do to the symbiote. It has the ability to change shape, color, and consistency. It is also very possible that it can increase its mass (within reasonable limitations) as well. I remember Brock saying that the symbiote increased his strength geometrically. Brock said that the more muscle mass he put on, the more the symbiote was able to increase their combined strength. Also, remember that the Carnage symbiote found a way to increase its own mass with the other symbiotes. During the Planet of the Symbiotes storyline, Carnage grows to be 50’ tall. Tiamat: quote: Wasn't an actual official picture of Go Hibiki existing? The one in Pocket Fighter is supposed to like, be just a joke, and the real Go Hibiki a Mui Thai fighter, right? Yeah, Go dressed in standard Muay Thai apparel. With the shorts and bandages. Go used the muay thai fighting style and challenged Sagat because he was the current Muay Thai God. Go’s Pocket Fighter incarnation was a parody of Mr. Karate (Takuma) from AoF. The long nose represents the Tengu mask that Takuma would wear. The fact that some people believe that this was Go’s actual appearance makes the whole “theory” (if you can even call it that) all the more laughable. -Clay Posted by Clay on 10:12:2001 07:03 AM: Saiki: Cool Retsu sprite. I like his outfit and fighting stance. He looks like he could do some serious damage. Also thanks for adding more bios. Random thoughts: -First thing that entered my mind when I saw Zangief’s bio: Zangief MUST be gay. Saiki said it himself, there isn’t any reason for him to dislike young, attractive females. This might explain why we never see R. Mika again. Technically, Zangief could like ugly or old women, but I don’t see why this would stop him from liking attractive ones either. Makes you wonder what Zangief and Raiden (Big Bear) are really doing in their CvS intro. Sorry, but I had to bring that up. Tiamat: Nice steel mill reference. You don’t watch the Simpsons, do you? The episode where Homer takes Bart to the Steel Mill is hilarious. -How is Zangief nearly 30cm (about a foot) taller than E. Honda and still 14kg (over 30 lbs.) lighter than him. Zangief is so bulky that this should be impossible. Even Lucky Colt is heavier than Zangief! Doesn’t sound quite right. -Does anybody else think that it is really ironic that Adon dislikes people that can’t back up their talk. I think that it is pretty hypocritical, considering that this is something that Adon is guilty of. He is always talking about how his fighting style is superior to all others, and that he is the strongest in the world. Adon must be delusional, since he thinks that his muay thai is superior to Gouki’s Ansatsu-ken. Unfortunately for Adon, he cannot defeat Ryu, Vega, or Gouki. Vega’s psycho power would overcome Adon, and Gouki wouldn’t have to think twice about wasting Adon. Also, Ryu must have defeated Adon in SF1. Adon chastises Sagat for losing to Ryu, but he is wasn't able to defeat Ryu either. Adon can certainly talk the talk, but he seems to be unable to walk the walk. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:12:2001 07:08 AM: Keep reaching for that rainbow, steel workers of America! Erm... no offense to any steel workers out there. Particularly because they could probably punt me across the room with a swift well-placed kick... Adon for some reason seems like the type of guy to me who would have very selective memory. Arrogant freaky (freaky as in ugly freaky, not narcisist freaky like Vega/Balrog, though I guess he can sorta apply a liiittle, too) characters tend to be that way, and they really don't get much more arrogant than Adon, I think... Don't forget that Zangief has that thong thong thong too. Lots of people might construe that as gay. And he likes ta wrassle! Okay, me stop now. Posted by Ultima on 10:12:2001 07:31 AM: From TiamatRoar: > Adon for some reason seems like the type of guy to me who would have very selective memory. Arrogant freaky (freaky as in ugly freaky, not narcisist freaky like Vega/Balrog, though I guess he can sorta apply a liiittle, too) characters tend to be that way, and they really don't get much more arrogant than Adon, I think... Yeah, I think that's more accurate. He thinks he's the strongest, even when he loses. I know how that is, since I feel that way all the time. > Don't forget that Zangief has that thong thong thong too. Lots of people might construe that as gay. And he likes ta wrassle! Okay, me stop now. Well, the way I see it, Zangief, being Russian, is probably not used to seeing young beautiful women. He's from Russia for crying out loud. He probably only likes women that have hair on their shins and chests or something.* *Disclaimer: I am joking. No offense to lovers of Russian women of Russia or anything. Posted by Azrael-sama on 10:12:2001 08:53 AM: quote: Originally posted by Clay Nice steel mill reference. You don’t watch the Simpsons, do you? The episode where Homer takes Bart to the Steel Mill is hilarious. Everybody dance now! Man, that is just weird. Gief doesn't like beautiful young women. ...'Kay. That's a fact Capcom really needs to explain. -Az Posted by Siegfried on 10:12:2001 10:01 AM: Hey, Azrael, aren't you the one who had a big SF information site a few years back? I'm still the same old Siegfried ^_^. Posted by MetaJuggerGief on 10:12:2001 03:08 PM: Wow, this is an awesome thread, equal to any comic book or manga thread. Everything from the little known facts, the sad changes to the story line (damn your eyes Capcom USA), and the comic relief makes this the most enjoyable forum on game story lines in a long time. Sorry, I'm done brown nosing now, so I'll put in my two cents. The Street Fighter live action movie, ROTFLMAO, hahahahaha. Yeah the whole movie sucked, but there two things in particular that stand out in my head. 1.) Chun Li dresses all in black to go sneaking around in broad daylight and 2.) Carlos Blanka is actually Charlie, Guile's long time friend, Uggghh, where's that extra strength Pepto-Bismal? They should have just called the movie Dignity Fighter for god sakes. Oh and speaking of travesties to the SF storyline caused by Capcom USA; Does anyone have their instruction booklet to SFA2 for the Super NES? Remember the little bio they give for Sakura? Here it is for anyone who doesn't remember: "Sakura has an unusual interest in street fighting. Most high school girls don't walk down the street looking to pick a fight, but ever since her run-in with three college men, she has sought to take her revenge." Great plot lines huh? Since some people were talking about Transformers much earlier in the thread it reminded me of something I wanted to mention. (Almost) Everyone loves Starscream, but did any one ever see the Transformers / G.I. Joe crossover in the comics? In one issue Cobra Commander rides inside Starscream. I had to laugh when I saw that. Its just too classic. All they had to do was throw Brainy Smurf in there and the trio would be complete, hahahaha. Well that's all for now. Great forum everyone, keep it going. Posted by Evil Ryu on 10:12:2001 04:36 PM: quote: Originally posted by Clay Lantis: I think that the “Dark Hadou” storyline, as most people perceive it, has ended. Gouki has accepted the fact that Ryu will not use the Killing Intent, and is waiting for Ryu to become strong enough to fight him. Ryu will most likely reach that level without using the Killing Intent (though Gouki may insist that they fight to the death). -Clay [/B] I doubt that is true..... in SF 3 Second Impact Gouki still wanted Ryu to use the Dark hadou techniques. (Check out Gouki's prebout intro against Ryu in the game where Ryu is Gouki's last boss.) Ryu still has the dark hadou within him, but he managed to keep it dormant. (Not saying that the satsui no mezameta version of Ryu will never pop up again, because it may if cacom wishes to do so.) Posted by FistsofFury on 10:12:2001 04:44 PM: quote: Originally posted by Evil Ryu I doubt that is true..... in SF 3 Second Impact Gouki still wanted Ryu to use the Dark hadou techniques. (Check out Gouki's prebout intro against Ryu in the game where Ryu is Gouki's last boss.) Ryu still has the dark hadou within him, but he managed to keep it dormant. (Not saying that the satsui no mezameta version of Ryu will never pop up again, because it may if cacom wishes to do so.) To tell the truth: Is Dark Hadou Evil? It's a fighting style used to kill. It was made for murder. Is it evil though? Can you be "infected" with it? It's a path you chose, A way you decide to fight. I don't think Ryu should have those "fits" of Dark Hadou as people think he does. It's not a disease, it's a fighting style. Posted by Evil Ryu on 10:12:2001 05:04 PM: quote: Originally posted by FistsofFury To tell the truth: Is Dark Hadou Evil? It's a fighting style used to kill. It was made for murder. Is it evil though? Can you be "infected" with it? It's a path you chose, A way you decide to fight. I don't think Ryu should have those "fits" of Dark Hadou as people think he does. It's not a disease, it's a fighting style. Dark hadou may not be "Evil" but it does give Ryu a very nasty attitude towards everybody and everything. (He does want to kill those who stand in his way.) there may not be a dark hadou at all. As far as I see it Satsui no mezameta Ryu only exists when Ryu let's his negative emotions take over, and thus cause him to become the satui no mezameta Ryu as we know of today...... This is probably the only reason why we don't see Ryu having many emotional moments even after A 2 storyline where "Evil" Ryu first came to existance since he knows what it could do to him....... Posted by Clay on 10:12:2001 07:33 PM: Alright, new blood! Glad you guys like the thread! Lets hope that we can keep it going like this. MetaJuggerGief: Thanks for the compiments. This thread is fun, and so far we haven't had people get angry about anything, which is the way that I want it to stay. Everybody has done a good job of presenting their case with out abusing anyone else. Kudos to us! Anyway, I remember that crossover. Aside from including GI Joe, I really like the Transformer comic storyline. Imo, it is far superior to the cartoon version. At least when compared to the newer ones. FoF: Thanks for the reply. I do want to point out that their is a difference between the "Dark Hadou" and the Ansatsu-ken art. They are not one and the same. I view Ansatsu-ken as a means of achieving a heightened state, whether it is demonic (Dark Hadou) or not. Evil Ryu: This is an argument that I love to engage in. Imo, a lot of people have a lot of misconceptions about Ansatsu-ken and the Killing intent (Saiki knows what I mean). I will give you my response in my next post. -Clay Posted by FistsofFury on 10:12:2001 07:35 PM: quote: Originally posted by Evil Ryu Dark hadou may not be "Evil" but it does give Ryu a very nasty attitude towards everybody and everything. (He does want to kill those who stand in his way.) there may not be a dark hadou at all. As far as I see it Satsui no mezameta Ryu only exists when Ryu let's his negative emotions take over, and thus cause him to become the satui no mezameta Ryu as we know of today...... This is probably the only reason why we don't see Ryu having many emotional moments even after A 2 storyline where "Evil" Ryu first came to existance since he knows what it could do to him....... Oh so you're saying Ryu shifts into that state by extreme emotions, where he becomes insanely powerful and has a chip on his shoulder. Okay I see you're point. One friend I talked to (M121Akuma, he should be coming soon) thinks that Dark Hadou and Ansatsu-ken are totally different things. He also thinks that Dark Hadou (Shotokan fueled by negative emotions like Anger, and hate IMHO)fuel Ansatsu-ken a and other arts used for the sole purpose of killing. I'd have to agree too. It makes sense IMHO. But what about Ken? My guess is that he dosen't have those negative emotions, therefore Dark Hadou never comes into play, and therefore Anstatsu-ken probably would not come into play either. Yo M121!! Explain that thing about demons you were talking about. Posted by Clay on 10:12:2001 07:57 PM: It looks like we are really going to get into this topic. Hopefully I'll get a chance to give my point of view. Unfortunately, I don't have time to do this now. To make a long story short- I have to get my car towed and still find a way to work. I'll try to respond in the next 8-10 hours. -Clay Posted by Evil Ryu on 10:12:2001 08:03 PM: quote: Originally posted by FistsofFury Oh so you're saying Ryu shifts into that state by extreme emotions, where he becomes insanely powerful and has a chip on his shoulder. Okay I see you're point. One friend I talked to (M121Akuma, he should be coming soon) thinks that Dark Hadou and Ansatsu-ken are totally different things. He also thinks that Dark Hadou (Shotokan fueled by negative emotions like Anger, and hate IMHO)fuel Ansatsu-ken a and other arts used for the sole purpose of killing. I'd have to agree too. It makes sense IMHO. But what about Ken? My guess is that he dosen't have those negative emotions, therefore Dark Hadou never comes into play, and therefore Anstatsu-ken probably would not come into play either. Yo M121!! Explain that thing about demons you were talking about. Ken... good question.... In theory Ken has negative emotions, Ken being easily angered will show his emotions quite often but will forget about his temper tamtrum 5 mintues later thus it never gets to the point of true rage... Ryu on the other hand keeps his emotions to himself until it completely eats him away and then transforms to his darker and MUCH more malnevolent self which is Satsui No Mezameta Ryu..... Akuma may have a personality of both Ryu and Ken..... He shows his anger towards others, yet still keeps a grudge in himself. Adding to the fact that he thirst for power may have made the demon he is today...... Posted by Evil Ryu on 10:12:2001 08:08 PM: quote: Originally posted by Clay Alright, new blood! Glad you guys like the thread! Lets hope that we can keep it going like this. Evil Ryu: This is an argument that I love to engage in. Imo, a lot of people have a lot of misconceptions about Ansatsu-ken and the Killing intent (Saiki knows what I mean). I will give you my response in my next post. -Clay I look foward to your response..... and as for everybody here..... it just gets more and more interesting with all of us sharing the views on the game we all know and appreciate Posted by Clay on 10:12:2001 08:22 PM: quote: Originally posted by FistsofFury Oh so you're saying Ryu shifts into that state by extreme emotions, where he becomes insanely powerful and has a chip on his shoulder. Okay I see you're point. One friend I talked to (M121Akuma, he should be coming soon) thinks that Dark Hadou and Ansatsu-ken are totally different things. He also thinks that Dark Hadou (Shotokan fueled by negative emotions like Anger, and hate IMHO)fuel Ansatsu-ken a and other arts used for the sole purpose of killing. I'd have to agree too. It makes sense IMHO. But what about Ken? My guess is that he dosen't have those negative emotions, therefore Dark Hadou never comes into play, and therefore Anstatsu-ken probably would not come into play either. Yo M121!! Explain that thing about demons you were talking about. FoF: Satsui no Hadou and Ansatsu-ken are totally different. I already mentioned this. I wish I could clear this up now, but I don't have the time to. Its cool that your friend is going to join the discussion. Make sure that he reads the whole thread so that he knows where we are coming from. I already made a few post on this subject earlier on (pages 1 and 2). Last, Ken hasn't dealt with Satsui no Hadou because he isn't as focused as Ryu. Ryu is focused totally on the fight. When a warrior desires to exceed their limitations, they become susceptable to Satsui no Hadou. Ryu's battle with Sagat is what pushed him into it. Gouki's obsession with becoming the most powerful is what pushed him into it. A person doesn't have to use Goutetsu's Ansatsu-ken to fall into this trap. It could happen to anybody who allows their desire and emotions to get the best of them. Also, Satsui no Hadou turns the user violent because they are focused on fighting and being the strongest. These emotions lead to their vicious nature. The only way to combat Satsui no Hadou is to gain control over yourself and focus your emotions. Ryu only allows Satsui no Hadou to control him when he is fighting Sagat (SF1). In Zero 3 Ryu is controlled by Pyscho power, the two are totally different. When Ryu is fighting Sagat, he wants to win so badly that his own Ki physically manifests itself. This is Satsui no Hadou. Usually Ryu focuses on improving himself. He doesn't obsess about being the strongest, he only desires to be the best that he can be. This is why you never see Ryu use the Satsui no Hadou ever again. It is possible for a person to use Ansatsu-ken and not be evil (See Goutetsu, Gouken). They just need to control their own dark nature and emotions. Ryu has choosen not to use true Ansatsu-ken because he doesn't wish to kill his opponent. However, it is possible for him to use it and not be "evil". I've got to go, but I'll be back later. -Clay Posted by Saiki on 10:12:2001 08:37 PM: Clay pretty much explained it pretty good about Ansatsuken and "Satsui on Hadou". Although I'd like to add why Ken isn't affected by "Satsui no Hado". It's not because he doesn't have any negative emotions or he doesn't have enough focus or anything like that. The reason why Ken isn't affected by "Satsui no Hadou" is because his motive for fighting is totally different from Ryu, Sagat, Gouki. Ken's motive to keep getting stronger is so he won't be out done by Ryu. That's what fuels Ken to become stronger. Ever since Ken met Ryu when they were young, he saw the potential that Ryu had. And since Ken was such a arrogant and ego-istick kid back then, he wanted to become better than Ryu. But as time went by the two became best of friends and the two turned into eternal rivals. So Ken doens't care about being the strongest fighter or the ultimate warrior, he wants to always be at the same level that Ryu is. So Ken will probably never be affected by "Satsui no Hado". Posted by m121akuma on 10:12:2001 08:38 PM: quote: Originally posted by Clay FoF: Satsui no Hadou and Ansatsu-ken are totally different. I already mentioned this. I wish I could clear this up now, but I don't have the time to. Its cool that your friend is going to join the discussion. Make sure that he reads the whole thread so that he knows where we are coming from. I already made a few post on this subject earlier on (pages 1 and 2). Last, Ken hasn't dealt with Satsui no Hadou because he isn't as focused as Ryu. Ryu is focused totally on the fight. When a warrior desires to exceed their limitations, they become susceptable to Satsui no Hadou. Ryu's battle with Sagat is what pushed him into it. Gouki's obsession with becoming the most powerful is what pushed him into it. A person doesn't have to use Goutetsu's Ansatsu-ken to fall into this trap. It could happen to anybody who allows their desire and emotions to get the best of them. Also, Satsui no Hadou turns the user violent because they are focused on fighting and being the strongest. These emotions lead to their vicious nature. The only way to combat Satsui no Hadou is to gain control over yourself and focus your emotions. Ryu only allows Satsui no Hadou to control him when he is fighting Sagat (SF1). In Zero 3 Ryu is controlled by Pyscho power, the two are totally different. When Ryu is fighting Sagat, he wants to win so badly that his own Ki physically manifests itself. This is Satsui no Hadou. Usually Ryu focuses on improving himself. He doesn't obsess about being the strongest, he only desires to be the best that he can be. This is why you never see Ryu use the Satsui no Hadou ever again. It is possible for a person to use Ansatsu-ken and not be evil (See Goutetsu, Gouken). They just need to control their own dark nature and emotions. Ryu has choosen not to use true Ansatsu-ken because he doesn't wish to kill his opponent. However, it is possible for him to use it and not be "evil". I've got to go, but I'll be back later. -Clay Well FoF I'm here, happy? Anyhoo, this was close to what i was gonna say. The difference is i feel that Dark hadou is sentient! I feel that it chose Ryu, because of his stregnth and dedication. That is why it is difficult to keep in check, because it is another sentient being, who can constantly communicate to you and badger you. Akuma is interested in Ryu because the dark hadou powers within him are interested. Just a theory though Posted by FistsofFury on 10:12:2001 10:59 PM: quote: Originally posted by m121akuma Well FoF I'm here, happy? Anyhoo, this was close to what i was gonna say. The difference is i feel that Dark hadou is sentient! I feel that it chose Ryu, because of his stregnth and dedication. That is why it is difficult to keep in check, because it is another sentient being, who can constantly communicate to you and badger you. Akuma is interested in Ryu because the dark hadou powers within him are interested. Just a theory though Nice Post Posted by Ultima on 10:13:2001 03:04 AM: [re: All this Dark Hadou stuff] I'm waiting for the Star Wars comparisons to begin. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:13:2001 03:33 AM: Well, Dan's AOF parody ending in that vs game could sorta be aaaalmost akin to Akuma saying to him, "I am your father." Complete with a Yuri look-alike sister to be Princess Leia!!! Dan had a large chance of giving into anger and possibly the satsu no hadou, too, I think >:P All must fear Han Solo Blanka. Silly Bison was never able to get the thing to materialize in Ryu. Still dunno why he decided to get rid of Juni after she tried. Course, cannonwise, the chances of Juni defeating Ryu are slim, but now that I think about it, I wonder if that's why Ryu was able to be psycho brainwashed... Juni fights Ryu (not necessarily defeating him but at least putting up a good fight at the worse, defeating him at the best. How? Ryu wasn't as fully trained up as in SFIII so it's still possible... and I always felt that the fact that Juni had such unconventional moves for the dolls might have indicated a higher potential or untapped psycho power level potential), Bison sees that Ryu's Satsu no Hadou isn't materializing, Bison uses Psycho Power to try to take over Ryu for himself. That seems like it'd make sense... dunno if Bison was actually stupid and dastardly enough to proceed with the kill Juni thing after that, but she did end up turning on him anyway with the rest of the dolls so I imagine in someway Bison made Juni decide to turn on him (or the brainwashing wore off, but there's still no indication of that happening for the other 12 dolls at all besides Cammy) Erm... getting back to the topic... If Sagat hadn't let Dan defeat him, can you imagine how scary a Shin Satsu no Hadou Dan would be!?!? Cyborg Dan: I AM INVINCIBLE! Akuma: *shorykens Cyber Dan away* Posted by Clay on 10:13:2001 06:13 AM: quote: Originally posted by Evil Ryu I doubt that is true..... in SF 3 Second Impact Gouki still wanted Ryu to use the Dark hadou techniques. (Check out Gouki's prebout intro against Ryu in the game where Ryu is Gouki's last boss.) Ryu still has the dark hadou within him, but he managed to keep it dormant. (Not saying that the satsui no mezameta version of Ryu will never pop up again, because it may if cacom wishes to do so.) Forgot about that. In 2i Gouki does ask Ryu to “fight with his (your) full power unleashed”. However, Ryu’s response is that “malicious intent is not the true way of the warrior”. This is where the difference between Satsui no Hadou and Ansatsu-ken comes in. What Gouki truly wants is for Ryu to use the true Ansatsu-ken techniques. The power of Ryu’s Shoryu-ken is incredible, enough to defeat any opponent. However, if Ryu were to use the original version of the move (instead of the variation that Gouken taught him) he would tear his opponent to shreds. Ansatsu-ken was developed to be strong enough to kill. If Ryu were to use the original form, he would become far, far more dangerous. This is what Gouki desires. If he and Ryu are engaged in a fight to the death, then even the tiniest error could mean defeat. With defeat comes death. This forces Gouki to use all of the powers at his disposal, giving him a true challenge. Whether this forces Ryu to succumb to Satsui no Hadou or not is irrelevant. Gouki doesn’t care (and never has cared) whether this happens or not. He only wants Ryu to stop holding back and go for the kill. For the record, Ryu states that he “will never stop fighting” and that he “will still find the ‘true strength’” in his win-quote vs. Gouki (2i). Ryu wishes to do so without killing others. He seeks to push himself to be the best that he can be. In order for Satsui no Hadou to return, Ryu would have to lose sight of this and obsess about proving his superiority over others. I’m not sure if that will happen. In both 2i and 3s Ryu seems to have moved past this. His next challenge may very well lie within Oro. Saying that his Satsui no Hadou mezameta form will ever pop again is kind of a misnomer. He appears in the Alpha series as a hidden character and is not involved in the storyline at all. Although he is controlled by Vega for part of the storyline, Satsui no Hadou never presents itself. The only time Ryu was under the influence of Satsui no Hadou was when he fought Sagat in the final round of the first World Warriors Tournament (SF1). Ryu doesn’t control the Dark Hadou, he controls himself. Satsui no Hadou only arises when Ryu has lost control himself. His personality would have to change drastically (or he would have to be put into a situation where he cannot afford to lose) for this to happen. -Clay Posted by Clay on 10:13:2001 07:03 AM: quote: Originally posted by Evil Ryu Dark hadou may not be "Evil" but it does give Ryu a very nasty attitude towards everybody and everything. (He does want to kill those who stand in his way.) there may not be a dark hadou at all. As far as I see it Satsui no mezameta Ryu only exists when Ryu let's his negative emotions take over, and thus cause him to become the satui no mezameta Ryu as we know of today...... This is probably the only reason why we don't see Ryu having many emotional moments even after A 2 storyline where "Evil" Ryu first came to existance since he knows what it could do to him....... Really interesting point, I think that Ryu probably does some soul searching, and changes his reasons for fighting. In SF1, Ryu is fighting to win the tournament; he wants to be the best. This is why Satsui no Hadou appears. Under it’s influence, Ryu’s judgement is skewed, making him more likely to use true Ansatsu-ken (I assume that he discovered the true versions of the techniques during his training). This results in Ryu using a more lethal version the Shoryu-ken and defeating Sagat. He isn’t sure what exactly happened until later. In A2, Gouki encourages Ryu to use the Killing Intent (true Ansatsu-ken). Despite knowledge of the art, Ryu still doesn’t use it. He may worry that by using it; he will become the next Gouki. However, after that, Ryu is captured and brainwashed by Vega. From here, the story sort of loses sight of Satsui no Hadou. Even though Vega wants to bring it out of Ryu, we never do see it again. Later on, in SF3, Ryu seems to have a good understanding of why he fights. He has definitely has come to understand who he is and no longer seeks to defeat others for personal glory. He seeks purpose in his life. I would really like to see a game where Ryu is in the transition stage where he learns to control himself. Capcom never really lets us know when this happens. Does Ryu have to deal with it in SF2, or has he already come to grips with it after Alpha? Also when does Ryu get his rematch with Sagat? Both these scenarios could take place at any point after the Alpha series. They could happen during SF2, between 2 and 3, or maybe in the future (SF4?). I would really like to see Capcom elaborate on these aspects of the story. PS Ryu can still be emotional and not give in to the Satsui no Hadou. He just can’t allow himself to go the extremes that Gouki does. He has to stay away from that kind of obsessive and aggressive nature. This shouldn’t be too hard because very few people take these traits as far as Gouki does. Unfortunately, Ryu is every bit as intense as Gouki (however, Ryu has great self-discipline and a virtuous spirit). As long a Ryu is able to keep his priorities straight, he will be okay. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:13:2001 07:05 AM: Is anyone making a FAQ from all this? If you guys want, I could get started on one. I'll use all the info here, bring it up to you guys for checking, state in the FAQ what's rumour and what's confirmed, and call the FAQ a collaberation done by multiple authors (IE, giving everyone credit) Weeee, someone linked to a text file which was a log of a mailing list or message board thread from the MMCafe boards about a previous discussion like this. Of course, I see lots of posts there by the same people here... I guess I could incorporate that too if no one minds? I'd need a list of who to give credit to. And this is all assuming no one else has started a story FAQ yet^^ *reads text log* Wow, all those people asking questions that were already answered within the thread had to be annoying, huh? Posted by Clay on 10:13:2001 07:40 AM: Tiamat: I've thought about it, but I really don't have the time to do it. Besides, I do this for fun anyway. This thread is practically an interactive FAQ, as long is we keep it going. It's a good idea though, so I'll be glad contribute in any way possible (writing, back round info, opinions...etc.) -Clay Edit: Hey, you changed your original post! Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:13:2001 07:50 AM: I hear from this thread text log that Saiki and Neo Rasa were working on a story FAQ. That one still going/being worked on? If not, I'll take it up then (giving credit and calling it a multi-person collaberation, of course). This thread is really neat, but it'd probably be good to compile these sorts of things I imagine. Archiving is always a good thing to do, after all^^ Edit: Sorry about that. Changed it back. I changed it the first time because I saw that Saiki was already working on a FAQ, but then when I saw that you already replied to it, I quickly changed it back. Meep Posted by Clay on 10:13:2001 08:40 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Clay pretty much explained it pretty good about Ansatsuken and "Satsui on Hadou". Although I'd like to add why Ken isn't affected by "Satsui no Hado". It's not because he doesn't have any negative emotions or he doesn't have enough focus or anything like that. The reason why Ken isn't affected by "Satsui no Hadou" is because his motive for fighting is totally different from Ryu, Sagat, Gouki. Ken's motive to keep getting stronger is so he won't be out done by Ryu. That's what fuels Ken to become stronger. Ever since Ken met Ryu when they were young, he saw the potential that Ryu had. And since Ken was such a arrogant and ego-istick kid back then, he wanted to become better than Ryu. But as time went by the two became best of friends and the two turned into eternal rivals. So Ken doens't care about being the strongest fighter or the ultimate warrior, he wants to always be at the same level that Ryu is. So Ken will probably never be affected by "Satsui no Hado". Whoops! Why didn’t I think of that? Anyway, great point Saiki. Ken’s motives for fighting are completely different than those of Ryu or Sagat. Though, if Ken became obsessed with beating Ryu (to the point where he left his family and only thought about Ryu all of the time), then I could see him being affected by Satsui no Hadou. I think that it is extreme emotions that sometimes bring this about. Ken’s role in society is essentially protecting him from it. M121akuma: Interesting theory. Though until Capcom states this, I’m going to have to stick with my beliefs. However, there are a lot of story arcs that Capcom could unfold if they choose that path. Tiamat: Dan and Satsui no Hadou What if Dan could be influenced by it? He has such weak ki, I’m not even sure if there would be that big of a difference. On another note, I’d be worried if it ever happened to Sakura. She seems to have such great potential. Sometimes potential like that is wasted. She would be really nasty if she fully developed her abilities and was under the influence of the Satsui no Hadou. Vega, Ryu, and Satsui no Hadou Imo, Vega went about it all wrong. He tried to directly bring it out of Ryu, which just isn’t a good idea. What he really should have done was to influence Ryu indirectly, so that he would be susceptible to it. First, he should have killed Ken. Most noticeably, it brings about negative emotions in Ryu. Grief, anger, and the thought of revenge would all push Ryu closer to the edge. The other over-looked aspect of this is that it eliminates Ryu’s only true friend and link the rest of society. With Ryu isolated from mankind, he is more likely to focus on recent events (Vega, Ken, revenge) and his emotions will reach a more extreme level (there is nobody else to help balance his thoughts and emotions). In a situation like this, Ryu may focus on using true Ansatsu-ken, which also seems to increase his odds of bringing about Satsui no Hadou. Next, Vega will have to put Ryu’s life in danger. Ryu’s survival instinct may be what pushes him over the edge. This would be the most efficient way for Vega take control of Ryu. However, there is one major drawback to this plan. In this situation, Ryu would probably be too much to handle. Vega would put himself in great danger if he went up against an enraged Ryu. In that sense the plan that Vega used was a lot safer. Though, for a guy who often brags of his invincibility and immortality, I would think that my plan would be worth the risk. This is Vega’s ultimate goal, and I would think that he would put his life on the line to achieve it. PS It is a good idea to condense everything. More people will probably see that way as well. Either way, there certainly is a lot to cover, especially with the gaps left by Capcom. Multiple scenarios and all. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:13:2001 08:51 AM: Oooo, that's true, huh? Sending a random doll after Ryu isn't exactly what I'd think to do if I wanted to awaken some killing intent. Though... funny that you bring up Satsu no Hadou Ryu being too much. I think Capcom actually showed that it actually definately would have been too much for Vega to handle if he went with that plan^^ Evil Ryu's ending shows that he sorta went on a rampage and probably teared through Shadowlaw since you see him standing over the corpses of Vega, Balrog, M. Bison, Sagat too, and Juli and Juni... *reads that other storyline thread some more* Well, finished reading that thread. In the end, it seemed to degenerate into people re-asking the same questions over and over. All of it was pretty much already mentioned within this current thread too. Unfortunately, that thread was at a different computer and... erm, I sorta lost the URL^^; But there wasn't really anything new there with a couple key things... like... this one: Cammy really IS a clone of Bison, then? I didn't realize that... the whole bio thing in CvS not knowing her birthplace might semi-confirm that too, though not completely of course since CvS obviously doesn't necessarily have to be taken for canon (though bio info in a crossover game is a lot more believable as hard canon than storyline plot developments...) Posted by Clay on 10:13:2001 09:17 AM: Tiamat: Yeah, I definitely think that Ryu would be too much for Vega to handle. Especially one on one. However, Vega has a lot of resources (money, weaponry, manpower) at his disposal with Shadoloo. This could help him out at least a little bit. There really is no telling how destructive Ryu could become in a fight for survival. The harder Vega pushes him, the more Ryu might retaliate. Still, Ryu is fairly young, and the incredible circumstances surrounding him in this situation work against him severly. Vega should have tried to use this to his advantage. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:13:2001 09:32 AM: Yea... I never did like how Shadowlaw seemed to mostly rely on fighting one on ones when it obviously had the manpower, money, and resources (heck, even scientists) to like... do more than that. Though... I guess that you can only go so far with how an organization like Shadowlaw operates so much for the front scenes in a fighting game format. Still surprised that Shadowlaw grunts are never shown though. Everyones' endings in SFA3 always seem to have the Shadowlaw base abandoned with the possible exception of the dolls as a last line of defense. I love the idea of killing Ken to awaken Ryu's evil intent... that seemed like it'd make for a great storyline (the whole symbolism and then some of Ryu's last ties to society being cut off is a really really good insight and point). Of course, killing him in actual canon might be a bit much, but they could like... put Ken's life in danger/make him a hostage or whatever and watch Ryu go wild... Which would be scary. Posted by Saiki on 10:13:2001 06:27 PM: I personally think that Vega is pretty stupid. Mainly because of how big Shadowloo is, but he could barly get anything done. Shadowloo 4000 members, 2000 of which are trained martial artists at least at the same level as Chunli 50 bases around the world 150 jet fighters 200 tanks 5 subs 1 satelite But then I guess it is kinda hard to show that in a fighting game. Oh yeah, before I forget, I just thought up of the best way to show what Ryu and "Satsui no Hado no Ryu" are like to each other. Compare that to Kenshin and Battousai from Rurouni Kenshin. It's basically the same thing. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:13:2001 07:16 PM: Yeesh, I personally dislike how canon Vega/M.Bison is done within the plot. So Saturday Morning Cartoonish EVIL, and yea, he DOES seem really incompetent. Shadowloo's so powerful that it can come up with things like the psycho drive and the dolls and even make a friggin clone from apparently scratch and yet all Vega can do with it is kill fathers, boot Native Americans off their land, and send dolls around the world on wild goose chases before deciding to terminate them for no reason. Heck, apparently Vega's leadership is so incompetent that Interpol doesn't even see him as a threat, which is why Chun Li and Charlie had to disobey orders just to go after him, LOL Too bad though, because as a fighter I think he's pretty decent and there was potential there... Shadowloo has submarines? Oo Whoa, you learn something new every day... Hey Saiki, you're still making that SF story FAQ, I assume? Posted by Saiki on 10:13:2001 07:40 PM: Err, well I am kinda still......... I might as well tell everyone then. I was writing my faq and I was a good way into, then my comp crashed. I lost all data. Got really pissed off. And got more pissed off when I found out that I didn't back the file and everything else up. Right now, all I have on the new faq that I've started up again is bio's for all the SF, PJ, FF, MB chars. I haven't really touched it since. Kinda lost the will to do it when I was a good way into it and then having to start over again. Posted by Sho 2 on 10:13:2001 11:29 PM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Err, well I am kinda still......... I might as well tell everyone then. I was writing my faq and I was a good way into, then my comp crashed. I lost all data. Got really pissed off. And got more pissed off when I found out that I didn't back the file and everything else up. Right now, all I have on the new faq that I've started up again is bio's for all the SF, PJ, FF, MB chars. I haven't really touched it since. Kinda lost the will to do it when I was a good way into it and then having to start over again. That's funny (not the computer crashing:eek as I was just about to ask someone for some Rival Schools/Project Justice info. I was wondering if you could kindly tell me where this is because I had kind of wanted to do a FanFic on it. (I have NEVER seen a RS/PJ FF ). Do you have info on most people's family life? I was just wondering because I kind of consider it important for Shoma (what's brother's name), Kyosuke (Parents anyone), Zaki (Is she part of a gang or something), Daigo&Akira, Yurika&Kurow, Momo (How old is she),&Edge (I heard he has a lot of brothers and sisters). Also, isn't Edge's real name Eiji Yamada. I really sorry to bombard you with questions but one last thing do you or anyone else know the years that RS & RS3/PJ happened and the ages of everyone. Thanks and sorry. Posted by FistsofFury on 10:14:2001 12:11 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki I personally think that Vega is pretty stupid. Mainly because of how big Shadowloo is, but he could barly get anything done. Shadowloo 4000 members, 2000 of which are trained martial artists at least at the same level as Chunli 50 bases around the world 150 jet fighters 200 tanks 5 subs 1 satelite But then I guess it is kinda hard to show that in a fighting game. Oh yeah, before I forget, I just thought up of the best way to show what Ryu and "Satsui no Hado no Ryu" are like to each other. Compare that to Kenshin and Battousai from Rurouni Kenshin. It's basically the same thing. Thanks for giving those Shadowloo numbers, I figured as much....but I was guessing only like 3000 soldiers...wow. and 2000 as strong as Chun-Li! 50 BASES Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:14:2001 12:46 AM: I knew that they had multiple bases and probably around 50, and I felt that they had about a membership of 3000 to 4000, and I knew that most Shadowlaw grunts were actually probably highly trained, though I didn't know as high as Chun Li Oo Whoa, that's some powerful stuff there. I suspected the tanks and the jet fighters but I never thought of submarines (course, they only have 5 submarines but still...) Those are some really REALLY neat numbers to know^^ But anyway.... ACK!!! The FAQ got wiped!? @@ That really REALLY sucks. Yea, I've lost huge enormous amounts of work to the evil that is computer loss, too-_- Well... guess I could attempt to take up the torch myself then. Guess I should include the bios... I'll probably do it game by game and instead of summarizing the overall story of game, summarize each game by character and how their ending and story fit into the overall storyline or if it happened at all. Or something. Erm... yea:P I dunno, I'm not that experienced at story FAQs but I am experienced with wasting loads of time writing and merging together data of the storyline persuassion :P Posted by FistsofFury on 10:14:2001 06:14 PM: I've got a question: What happened to the 12 dolls? Has Capcom ever said what happened to them?? Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:14:2001 08:26 PM: I'm pretty sure Cammy used the psycho drives to get the twelve dolls out of Mrigranka. That would go along with the whole "all the dolls turning against Bison and Cammy rescuing them but almost dying herself in the process" official statement. Cammy's ending probably had a very big chance of happening (actually, most SFA3 endings probably did happen in some form or another I imagine). My guess is that the dolls all were sent flying all over to various parts of the world after Cammy used the psycho drive to transport them out and are now split up. Like Cammy, I'm pretty sure they also all lost their memory because Juli in her ending (which parallels Cammy's ending and doesn't conflict, unlike Juni's) seems to have lost her memory when Cammy wakes her up. So basically somewhere out there in the world are 12 other psycho powered girls like Cammy going around... erm, doing stuff. Well, there's a semi-reasonable chance that T Hawk's ending happened in some way and he got Noembelu back. It'd be hard to fit that ending in with Cammy's since Noembelu would have died without the psycho drive to revive her but it seems like both could have sorta happened and T Hawk just found Noembelu somewhere near Mrigranka or something after Cammy saved her. Though... I'm not sure. Noembelu probably wouldn't be screaming for Lord Bison since she and the other dolls turned on him, I think (going along with Juli's ending where Juli isn't screaming for Bison, not Juni's where Juni and Juli are). I think a great storyline in the future would be one of the dolls being... rather traumatized because where-ever she ended up after SFA3 wasn't a very happy place. Unlike Cammy, the rest of the dolls didn't have a Vega/Balrog to deliver them to the doorstep of a good guy place like Delta Red... waking up somewhere completely randomly without any memory, any home, or anything at all besides your doll uniform and your weapon (where applicable) probably would not be a very pleasant experience, I think... My actual prediction for the dolls? SFA3 was their debut and their finale. I'd be surprised as heck if Capcom decided to utilize them again. Because with Cammy saving them, their storyline is basically resolved, I feel. (The above paragraph about a what-if storyline for them would basically be a revival of the doll storyline than a resolution). And Capcom doesn't seem really interested in reviving past storylines of SF, resolved or not, with very few exceptions (such as the flagship character Ryu, of course. What with him being the flagship character and all). The dolls not having a prayer of returning is actually sorta just fine with me... like I said, I believe that fighting game genre isn't really the right medium for a concept like that, anyway, even if it's a cool concept. And it's pretty much been resolved for the most part, too. I'm sorta surprised the game Cannon Spike didn't have the twelve dolls or a variation as a boss, though. Actually, when I think about it, Cammy's storyline was sorta resolved, also. She's given up her past and is now looking towards a bright life and happy future. Really nothing left to resolve unless a new storyline aspect is revived (like the whole search for the dolls thing I mentioned a while back) Posted by Clay on 10:15:2001 02:08 AM: I’ve always hated Vega, ever since the first time I saw him. I just thought that he was a stupid character. Vega, as a character, has always been pretty two-dimensional. Did anybody else think that it was odd that Vega wanted to use the SF2 tournament as a means of achieving world domination? Capcom later provides us with a better explanation for the tournament, but even then, he always seems to come up flat. He lacks a good motive for world domination, and we have never gotten a good explanation of his back round (Alpha does hint at it). Most importantly, like Saiki, I can’t stand how incompetent he is. It’s really a shame, because I thought that Capcom had introduced some nice ideas with him. His quest for Ryu actually gave him a connection to the SF story as well as a reason for holding the second tournament. I was also intrigued by the Rose-Vega connection. Capcom could have made him into a cool character with this, but it all ends up being for naught because all Vega seems to do (in A3) is repeat how evil and unstoppable he is. It grows old really quickly. Great Vega, I’m glad you’re evil and all, but how about adding some actual depth to the storyline? Vega serves his purpose as one of the lead villains throughout Alpha and SF2, but he could have been so much more. He claims to be all-powerful and immortal, but always comes up short, especially since Gouki seems to own him for free. He’s just poser, dreaming of things that (often due to his own stupidity) he cannot attain. Don’t get me wrong; I really like the idea of a villain that feeds off of human shortcomings and weaknesses. I’ve always been a fan of the whole enigma that is “good vs. evil”, but when Vega attempts to play the role of the primordial force of evil, he makes a fool of himself (why not use the soldiers and resource at your disposal? Why not think of a plan that would exploit Ryu’s weaknesses? Most importantly, don’t be so arrogant that you think that you can take Gouki one on one). Currently, I view Vega as “filler”. He is there just to bide time until Gouki or Gill shows up -Clay Posted by Clay on 10:15:2001 02:57 AM: Saiki: Thanks for the stats on Shadoloo. If Vega has 50 various bases of operation around the world why are Charlie and Chun Li so hell-bent on destroying the installation in Thailand? I assume that it is because it is Vega’s HQ and the Psycho drive is located there. Did Vega have a back up Psycho Drive? He probably only had one, but it could have been possible for multiple locations to have one. Last, does Capcom announce any other locations of the Shadoloo strongholds? Other than Thailand and Brazil (A2) I don’t recall any other specific locations being mentioned. quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar And Capcom doesn't seem really interested in reviving past storylines of SF, resolved or not, with very few exceptions (such as the flagship character Ryu, of course. What with him being the flagship character and all). I know what you are saying, but actually if you think about it, Capcom doesn’t even do this for Ryu! When was the last time that a story involving Ryu didn’t involve him walking into the distance or looking for new challengers? Capcom never resolved the Satsui no Hadou chapter of Ryu’s life. I have yet to see Ryu and Sagat’s final showdown. As for Ryu and Gouki, who knows when we will see this one? Ryu also seems to fall victim to the storyline curse. Is there no one who is safe from Capcom’s short-term memory? Just sayin’ is all. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:15:2001 03:08 AM: *blink blink* Whoa, holy cow. I never realized that. You're right @@ Even poor Ryu basically Capcom lets stagnate with those stupid walk into the distance endings when he has so much more storyline behind him that could (and SHOULD, dammit!) be explored Oo Sigh... it's too bad. The more I think about it, the more Street Fighter actually DOES have a good storyline, contrary to what lots of people say and believe. Barring that whole "Capcom of Japan goes back and changes established canon" thing. In the end, that storyline becomes failed potential if it isn't used or thrown to the winds, and Capcom seems to be doing both. Blaaaaaarg. Posted by FistsofFury on 10:15:2001 03:40 AM: yes..marvel in the laziness that are the Capcom story writers.0_o Anyway yeah Bison (Vega) is kinda incompetant. The more I find out about the guy, the more I realize that he's a bumbling idiot. He supposed to be all powerful right?? He could have destroyed ALL of the Street Fighters, if only he sat his ass down and thought up a decent plan. He could have sent all 12 dolls to each fighter one by one, surely no one could take on all 12 dolls BY THEMSELVES?! *ponders* Bison is overused. He's not as powerful as he says he is. I bet he dosen't put up a decent fight aganist Gouki Gill is underused. IMHO Gill is a much better boss. Gill knows he's better than what you'll ever be, Gill knows he has more power than you can ever dream of, and he proves it Posted by Saiki on 10:15:2001 05:02 AM: Sho2 Well, the name of Kyosuke Kagami's dad is Mugen Imawano. Shoma Sawamura's brothers name is Shyuichi. Zaki(Aoi Himezaki) is the leader of girls biker gang. I don't know what Daigo Kazama and Akira Kazama's parents names are. Kirishima Yurika and Kurow Kirishima's parents names I don't know either. Momo is 16 if I'm not mistaken. I'm not too sure sure if Edge has lots of brothers or sisters at all. But Eiji Yamada is his real name that he hates to be called. RS most likely took place between 1989~1990. And PJ is the following year. Clay Nash and Chunli wanted to destroy the Thailand base because that was the main Shadowloo base and because it had the Psycho Drive. I think that Thailand and Brazil are the only two that have been said by Capcom so far. Tiamat Roar I personally don't think we'll ever see Cammy or the dolls return. Like you said, their stories are finished and unless they can put a good story with Cammy, she'll become a pointless character in the story like Chunli was in SF3. FistofFury He could have sent all 12 dolls to each fighter one by one, surely no one could take on all 12 dolls BY THEMSELVES?! I can think of a few, like Gouki, Gen, Oro, Vega, Ryu and Sagat. Other than that, I can't think of any. The one thing that I'm really pissed at Capcom is how weak they've made Vega look. In reality he's one strong guy. Strong enough to give Gouki a run for his money. Even in Z3 when he was defeated, he was beat because he fought, Ken and Sakura shortly after fighting Ken, Sakura, Ryu and Sagat. Then fought Rose and Guy. Then fought off the 12 dolls and fighting Cammy after. Then finally facing off against Nash and still gave Nash one hell of a fight. I personally think Vega is one badass villian(power-wise). I still wish he had a little bit more brains. I'd really like to see Capcom make a SF RPG so they can portray each character properly. But then this is Capcom so it'll never likely happen. Posted by Clay on 10:15:2001 05:45 AM: Saiki: Thanks for the reply. Like I said before, I almost want to like Vega, but sometimes, he seems like such a dunce. I like a lot of the things that Capcom added to Vega in Zero series (earlier post). I think that Capcom could have saved some of Vega's credibility if they hadn't let nearly every character in the game beat him to a pulp. When R. Mika is defeating Vega then its really pathetic. If people had different bosses in Z3 (like they did in Z2) then I think that Vega could have saved face. Also, is Vega's second incarnation weaker than his first? I think that Vega is best portrayed in the SF2 anime. I really like him in this movie. He is very powerful and you can see how everyone else fears him. Not only are Vega's psycho powers and techniques top notch, but he is also displayed as an excellent fighter. The Ryu and Ken vs. Vega battle is amazing! This is one of the only times that I am not sick of seeing Vega. He's truly a force to be reckoned with. -Clay Posted by Azrael-sama on 10:15:2001 08:06 AM: Like I said, I'd like a back story on Vega. How did he get involved with/begin Shadowlaw? Where did he get his psycho-power? What happened during his life to lead him to where he is now? I'm sure he didn't wake up one morning and think "Hey, I think I'd like to become evil and rule the world. Okay!" And the whole Rose/Vega connection too. An SF RPG could be awesome. Start at SF1, and cover every little think from the original, Zero, SFII, and SFIII. Explain the things that were never explained in the games, and have it be canon. But alas, that is wishful thinking. Clay - Vega was awesome in the SFII anime. His design was really cool. He was rather lanky in the SFII game, but the animators buffed him out a little bit, which made him more intimidating. Plus he owned everyone for free. I would have loved to see a Chun-Li Vs Vega fight, but sadly she got smurfed in the middle of the movie (although Chun-Li Vs Balrog was a great fight). Ken and Ryu Vs Vega was a kick-ass fight as well. -Az Posted by FistsofFury on 10:15:2001 04:28 PM: quote: Originally posted by Azrael-sama Like I said, I'd like a back story on Vega. How did he get involved with/begin Shadowlaw? Where did he get his psycho-power? I've heard that he was born with it?? And I thought Vega (M. Bison) built Shadowloo/law from the ground up? Didn't he start it himself? Or take it over from someone else?? Posted by Clay on 10:15:2001 07:57 PM: Azrael: Vega is actually a really good villain in the anime. He uses his assassins and and monitor cyborgs wisely, and isn’t afraid to go out and show everyone who’s boss when he has to. Plus, he actually seems to have a plan thought out beforehand. He used his loss to Ken and Ryu to his advantage. Not only does the rest of the world think that he is dead, but now it will be much easier for him to capture Ryu in a one on one fight. Without the US military and Interpol looking for him, there is less of a chance for any outsiders to meddle with his plans. I’m not saying that he wanted to lose to Ryu and Ken on purpose (though he may have), but he showed a lot of resourcefulness by using his loss to his advantage. Too bad there never was a sequel, because I love that anime. I wish that the team that developed it would come back and make a series (not just a movie) that would be accepted as canon by Capcom. Something that follows the plot that Capcom gives them. They could take their sweet time making it, as long as the quality was there (unlike SF2V, which can get dull and repetitive) and provided that it explained the SF story (again, unlike SF2V). It would be amazing! Az and FoF: I’ve always assumed that Vega created Shadoloo, but I’m not definitely sure. But you guys do bring up an interesting scenario. Is Vega a man who’s powers grant him superhuman status, or an inexplicable force of evil that takes a human form? Considering that this is SF, I’ll cast my vote towards the first option. Given his back round with Rose it seems more likely that he is human and has trained his abilities to the point where he is god-like. Also, there have been references to beings that are superior to Vega, and it is likely that he and Rose were taught by them. These same being(s) are the ones who gave Rose and Vega their gift/curse of immortality and the joining of their souls. As for the possibility that Vega was born with his powers; there is no doubt in my mind that Vega was born as a ‘gifted’ individual, but like any talents, his needed to be nurtured, focused, and trained to reach the level of power that he has obtained. quote: What happened during his life to lead him to where he is now? I'm sure he didn't wake up one morning and think "Hey, I think I'd like to become evil and rule the world. Okay!" No, but as his powers manifested their true potential, he may have developed a superiority complex. Also, since he learned that he could use negative emotions as a source of power, it would make sense that he would want to subjugate others for his own selfish ambitions. Everything that he has done (creating Shadoloo, seeking out Ryu) is a logical extension of this train of thought. Vega is driven by power; he craves it. He regards others as weak, if they are destroyed in his quest for power than so be it. They are merely fodder for is Psycho abilities. Perhaps he wishes to overthrow his own master. It’s obvious that Vega wants to reign supreme, so his true goal may not actually be the world; rather, he seeks to defeat the one(s) who were powerful enough to teach him how to use his own abilities. The world would surely crumble afterwards. I think that it is possible that Capcom hasn’t showed Vega’s goals in the right context. Looking at it in this light, Vega’s role in the SF Universe becomes more apparent. Ryu is the man who seeks enlightenment. He represents mankind’s desire to find out the true purpose of life. Gouki is the warrior. He shows mankind’s competitive spirit and our abilities to exceed our limitations through sheer will power. Vega has given into his darker side. He represents mankind’s follies and weaknesses. He feels no compassion for others and is driven by selfishness, greed, and cruelty. He is mankind at its very worst. -Clay Posted by Clay on 10:15:2001 09:39 PM: Azrael: I just looked up at my previous post and to me, it looked like I was trying to correct you. Actually, I’m agreeing with you, so please try not to misinterpret what I was saying. I know exactly what you’re saying. quote: Originally posted by Saiki The one thing that I'm really pissed at Capcom is how weak they've made Vega look. In reality he's one strong guy. Strong enough to give Gouki a run for his money. Even in Z3 when he was defeated, he was beat because he fought, Ken and Sakura shortly after fighting Ken, Sakura, Ryu and Sagat. Then fought Rose and Guy. Then fought off the 12 dolls and fighting Cammy after. Then finally facing off against Nash and still gave Nash one hell of a fight. I personally think Vega is one badass villian(power-wise). I still wish he had a little bit more brains. I'd really like to see Capcom make a SF RPG so they can portray each character properly. But then this is Capcom so it'll never likely happen. Saiki: I was under the impression that Ken and Sakura fought Vega while Sagat fought Ryu. After Ryu broke free from Vega’s control, he made his stand, at which point Vega was forced to make a tactical retreat. I didn’t think that Sagat fought Vega directly, just indirectly by fighting Ryu. Does Rose die in her ending? Guy says that it looks like she will be able to heal from her wounds, but considering that Vega does actually die in Z3 it would mean that things aren’t looking very good for Rose. On the other hand, he is “reincarnated” for SF2, so does that mean that Rose is still around? After SF2 are Vega and Rose both going to stay dead for good? Also, do the dolls actually fight Vega? Outside of Cammy’s bout against Vega, it seems more likely that the others would have aided Nash and Chun Li in destroying Shadoloo. They would have been able to help Guile/Nash/Chun gain access to the base and Psycho Drive, among other things (shutting down Shadoloo facilities, getting rid of guards and henchmen). Last, the Psycho Drive was supplying energy to Vega the whole time. It was a major factor in helping him combat all of his enemies. Is the only difference between Vega’s powers in Zero and SF2 the Psycho Drive? I think that without the Psycho Drive, then Vega would have little chance at defeating Gouki. Vega is really powerful, but Gouki seems to be able to one up him at nearly everything he does. Vega would need to rely on the Psycho Drive to be at Gouki’s level. This is why Gouki criticizes Vega in Z3. Gouki said that Vega needs to be more reliant on his fist rather than his Psycho power. This may be Gouki’s way of telling Vega that he should rely on himself and not his Psycho Drive to win. Either way, it’s sage advice. When somebody relies on technology or an outside force, they have less control over their fate. SSF2T seems to prove that without the Psycho Drive, Vega is not as all-powerful as he claims to be. -Clay PS Saiki, for a look at a cool idea for a SF RPG, stop at Ultima's website (listed in his signature). It's fairly dated, and really needs to updated with some new info, but you can see where he was going with it. I think that it is very well done and I always like to give Ultima a "thumbs up" when I talk about it. Anyway, Ultima said that he may even try to update it later this year. More power to him. I suggest that you take a look at it if your interested. Later. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:15:2001 10:26 PM: I have this feeling that a correctly done RPG that spanned all of Street Fighter's storyline would probably provide 150+ hours of gameplay (if done correctly to catch all aspects and spend time developing important parts instead of just rushing through). This means that if an SFRPG ever does come out... it'd probably have to come out as a series or in segments. Though that also might be because I myself always felt that RPGs dash through their storylines way too quickly without exploring all aspects... Erm, anyway, moving along... I actually think Cammy probably had a hand in making the other 12 dolls turn against Vega. I'd be surprised if they all decided to turn on him independently, because Juli and Juni in Alpha 3 show absolutely no signs of losing their brainwashing until Vega finally directly threatens to kill them, after which their survival instinct kicks in. So my guess is that Cammy ended up fighting or at least talking to the other dolls for a bit before somehow convincing them all that they had to turn against Vega. Exactly how they turned against Vega, I dunno, though. *snickers again at the thought of 13 angry pissed off teenage girls giving Vega the beatdown* The psycho drive in a way ended up being Vega's downfall, yea. It gets destroyed and all that negative energy overflows Vega's body and boom. Akuma was right in that regard. Guy says that Rose will heal from her physical wounds but for some reason, she doesn't seem to be healing. Apparently Vega somehow damaged Rose in a way that she couldn't heal (maybe it's because Vega himself died?). I don't think Capcom flat out stated that Rose is dead, but I'd be really surprised if she was alive. http://www.geocities.com/fatdave83/SF_Story.txt Finally found that storyline thread, by the way. Vega in the anime is cool. I really really liked that anime. Too bad it couldn't have a sequel, though, because there was lots of stuff in there that seemed unresolved which just screamed that the anime should have been a series or had a sequel. Sigh. I hear that there's a new anime coming out based on SFA3. This is just personal opinion, but if it's anything like that ridiculously uncanon SFA2 anime, I actually FEAR what it's going to do... :P Yea, the dolls again don't have a prayer of returning, I think. And I think I'd almost prefer it that way, anyway. On a random note, if Capcom did bring them back and make them playable, in a way, my [ridiculously uncanon] fanfic would be screwed because my fanfic is due to my membership in an online writing RPG, and the dolls being playable would make them chooseable characters in that online writing RPG and thus 'takeable' by other writers, too, and thus then I wouldn't have a monopoly on doll writing there which would completely fubar where I want to go with my plot. :P Not that anyone here should have reason to care about that though, LOL. Oops. ....boy, talk about an incoherent post I made, here Oo Posted by Ultima on 10:16:2001 02:29 AM: quote: Originally posted by Clay PS Saiki, for a look at a cool idea for a SF RPG, stop at Ultima's website (listed in his signature). It's fairly dated, and really needs to updated with some new info, but you can see where he was going with it. I think that it is very well done and I always like to give Ultima a "thumbs up" when I talk about it. Anyway, Ultima said that he may even try to update it later this year. More power to him. I suggest that you take a look at it if your interested. Later. Thanks for the plug Clay. I couldn't let all this SF RPG talk go by without mentioning my Manfesto site at least once, but you got to it for me. I'll try and update the story scenarios as soon as I can. My classes are really beating the crap out of me this semester. If you bother to look through my SF RPG Manifesto, please note the following: - There are two versions - Ver 5.00 and Ver 6.00. Ver 5.00 is complete, but is horribly out of date across the board. It does have my complete character guide up to that point though, including EX characters. Ver 6.0X is what I'm working on right now, and is more up to date, but the storyline info is outdated compared to what's been said in this thread. In my next update, it's primarily the story stuff I'm going to fix. - Ver 6.0X's has the more up to date info, but the character guide is severely incomplete (only about 10 characters out of my proposed 91 are fully finished). The links are there, but the files are either not in the right place or haven't been updated to the new format, and many of them will be unreadable. So my advice is to read Ver 6.00's stuff, check out what few characters I have completed there, and then go to Ver 5.00 to see a basic idea of what I have in mind for the rest of the cast. - You may encounter some javscript glitches (like incorrect image rollovers) in Ver 5.00. Pay these no mind, thanks. I know they're there. - Final note: All names are based on the US versions. No complaints please, this is just the way it was written. That should be all, thanks. As I said, I'll try and update things when I can. Concerning the Dolls, at the moment I only plan to have 3 of them featured prominently, namely Cammy, Juni and Juli. These would be characters you could fight against (and in the case of Cammy at least, fight with). The rest will be seen, but you can't fight against them (mainly because I have no info on them). We'll see how things turn out when I update... Oh, and TiamatRoar: I don't think an SF RPG that spanned all of SF's stories would be anywhere near that long (I'm thinking closer to 60 hours myself), but it really depends on how overworld movement is done. Posted by Golden Dragon on 10:16:2001 02:46 AM: This might seem/sound trivial, but where does Final Fight 3 fit into the SF/FF timeline? I know where Final Fight 1 & 2 fit into the chronology, but where does the 3rd one? If it helps any, I believe Final Fight 3's plot went a little something like this: The Mad Gear Gang had been taken out for good in FF2 (at the hands of Haggar, Maki and Carlos). With the gang quickly falling apart, they fought within themselves, battling each other until one of them reined supreme. A lot of the city's other gangs joined the fray over control of the streets as well. In the end, the Skull Cross Gang reigned supreme and it was now up to Haggar and Guy to stop them. This also introduces their new allies Lucia and Dean. Dean was asked to join the Skull Cross gang, but he refused so they slaughtered his family and has him seeking revenge. Lucia's a detective in Metro City's Special Crimes Unit (and an old friend of Cody's), who aided Haggar in bringing down the gang as a way of repaying him for clearing her of a corruption charge. Posted by Clay on 10:16:2001 03:30 AM: Ultima: No problem. I like how thorough your site is. I didn't know that you had started ver 6.0, I'll have to take a look at it. I'm glad that you're using information from this thread to help with the storyline. It sounds like it will be great, but don't rush it. I know how school can really slow a guy down. I'm playing quite a bit of catch-up myself. -Clay PS I had another post, but my connection failed. Now I see that it didn't show up, so I guess I'll re-type it. Oh well. Posted by Clay on 10:16:2001 04:07 AM: Tiamat: I wouldn’t mind seeing the RPG done as a series. Considering that there are multiple chapters to the SF story, it would make a lot of sense. Besides, with multiple games, they could explore each character better and do them justice. quote: I actually think Cammy probably had a hand in making the other 12 dolls turn against Vega. I'd be surprised if they all decided to turn on him independently, because Juli and Juni in Alpha 3 show absolutely no signs of losing their brainwashing until Vega finally directly threatens to kill them, after which their survival instinct kicks in. So my guess is that Cammy ended up fighting or at least talking to the other dolls for a bit before somehow convincing them all that they had to turn against Vega. Exactly how they turned against Vega, I dunno, though. Agreed; never said that she didn’t. What I would like to know is what each specific doll did in her role against Shadoloo. If they had all directly fought Vega then I think that Capcom should have used one of the doll’s endings to depict this. It would have been cool to see. quote: Guy says that Rose will heal from her physical wounds but for some reason, she doesn't seem to be healing. Apparently Vega somehow damaged Rose in a way that she couldn't heal (maybe it's because Vega himself died?). I don't think Capcom flat out stated that Rose is dead, but I'd be really surprised if she was alive. http://www.geocities.com/fatdave83/SF_Story.txt This is what I was hinting at. If Rose does die in Z3 than it’s because Vega died. He said that they were connected, and that they both had to die at the same time. This would explain why Rose wasn’t able to heal from her wounds. However, since Vega returns in SF2, it leaves me wondering what happens to Rose. The way I see it, there are three separate possibilities. 1. Rose died Z3 and remains dead- This is the most likely option because it is the easiest for Capcom to explain. She never appears in a post Zero game. 2. Rose lived though Z3- Since they don’t show her dying, it would make sense. Also, with her still alive, it makes it far more convenient for Vega to rear his ugly head up again. An easy explanation is that Rose serves as an anchor for Vega. As long as she is still alive, Vega never really dies, even if his body is destroyed his soul never really disappears because it is one and the same with Rose’s. Vega more or less says this in Rose’s Zero3 ending. He will return, maybe in a different time/place, maybe in a different body, but make no mistake, Vega swears that he will make an encore appearance. According to this scenario, Rose could either still be dead or alive after SF2. If she’s dead, then we will never see Vega again. There is very good chance that Rose could still alive (she was never mentioned in SF2 (note: technically she didn’t exist, but it is a good loophole), which means that Vega could reappear in the future if Capcom wanted to make him. 3. Actually, I just realzed that I put my third scenario in with the second: Rose lives in Z3 and dies in SF2 is the second scenario while Rose lives Z3 and lives through SF2 was going to by my third point. I was thinking of a fourth (albeit very unlikely) scenario where Rose dies in Z3, but is reincarnated with Vega for SF2. It doesn't make much sense though since she isn't involved with SF2, but technically it would apply. Rose should be able to come back to life using Vega the same way he uses her. Yeah, I had seen part of that thread before, but I was glad to see it again so that I could read the rest of it. This was from Gamefaqs, correct? Thanks. quote: ....boy, talk about an incoherent post I made, here Oo Don’t worry, there’s a lot to cover, so if you have to post on multiple topics I can understand where your coming from. Another Alpha/Zero anime, huh? Z3 has a lot to cover, so I hope that they don’t try to cram it all into 90 minutes. That would be a shame. Actually, I don’t know why they even bother making any Zero movies since the SF2 anime is essentially the same thing. That movie did it better than these other two could ever hope to. They should just make a series based on SF. It would better explain the story and wouldn’t be so rushed. They could work on it in chapters and release it in increments so that the quality would not deteriorate as the series went on. Oh well, in a perfect world I guess, but… -Clay Posted by Saiki on 10:16:2001 05:25 AM: Azrael-sama Well, Vega wasn't born with the Psycho powers. He was actually trained by someone along with two other students. who his master and the other two students are is unknown. Later, he went corrupt and created Rose and trained her. Rose is basically the good side of Vega. Vega and Rose were one person before. Vega is the evil half while Rose is the good half. He also created Shadowloo around the same time. When Vega's body was destroyed in SFZ3, his soul entered Rose's body and the two became one again. Later the soul re-entered the newly made body. Then Gouki killed Vega, at the same time killing Rose. So Rose is dead. Unless Capcom pulls another story changer, she'll stay dead. Clay Yes, Sagat mainly fought Psycho Ryu while Ken and Sakura fought Vega. But later Ryu and Sagat took a stand so Vega took off because he was wounded enough from Ken and Sakura. It's unknown if all dolls the actually fought Vega directly, all that's known is that they turned against Vega in some way shape or form. The Psycho Drive was one of the factors that made Vega weaker in SF2. But I think that the main factor was Rose. Since she and Vega became one again, her soul might have contained Vega's power up to a certain point preventing Vega from using full power. I'm gonna take a look at Ultima's page right after I finish writing this. Tiamat It'd be awesome if the SF RPG was over +150 hours of gameplay. Although if Capcom does decide to make, I would hope they don't change too much of the existing story. Golden Dragon Final Fight 3 had to have taken place after SFZ3. Although I'm not sure how much later, it takes place after SFZ3 and most likely before SF2. Posted by Clay on 10:16:2001 06:21 AM: That’s some crazy Vega stuff. Vega created Rose, I assume with the purpose of increasing the negative aspects of his power (any positive attributes would have been a hindrance to him, thus weakening him). When Vega entered Rose’s body, it (her body) essentially changed sexes? I guess that it doesn’t matter because it was just the physical manifestation of Vega’s psyche, but it does seem sort of … odd. Vega joining with Rose after Z3 fits in pretty well with my second scenario from my previous post. Rose did after all serve as an anchor for Vega to this world. Anyway, it’s good to finally know that Vega will not be coming back. There was always a lot of speculation that he may return, but if he and Rose shared the same body when Gouki cleaned their clocks, then he must be gone for good. That’s a good point about Rose sort of canceling out some of Vega’s power. Though, I’m not sure how big of an effect she would have. Vega seems to have the majority of the control in this relationship. Still, if he “exiled” Rose from his body in the beginning, there must have been some substantial boost to his abilities, so I can understand what you’re saying. In the future, I’d like some sort of explanation from Capcom on who exactly was Vega’s master, and who else studied with him. I think that these other characters could play an interesting role in future SF’s (if Capcom wanted to include them). Also, let us give credit to Capcom on this one. Saiki’s info on Vega and Rose sharing the same bodies during SF2 means that Capcom has done something that it hasn’t done very often. They have given us closure on a story arc. With both sides of Vega’s psyche in the same body when Gouki killed him, Vega has no way of coming back. Vega said that both he and Rose had to die at the same time in order to kill him off, and Gouki did this. Kudos to Capcom for ending Vega’s story. It was pretty creative and entertaining. Who says that Capcom never cares about the story? Now this is a step in the right direction. Hopefully Capcom will clear up some more of the story for us. I’m still looking forward to Ryu vs. Sagat. I also would like to see Capcom clear up Ryu’s past (Satsui no Hadou), show us what happened to Gen, and have Adon fight Gouki (among other things). The list goes on and on. -Clay Posted by sigma20xx on 10:16:2001 06:34 AM: What about Shun from SFA The movie is there any truth to him or was he just for the movie???? I know this is a little off from what where all talking about but does anyone know the story of a guy named DIRTY BERET. If you have ever played Darkstalkers they show a guy with the game logo and he looks like Akuma but he has elf like ears and is wearing a beret.. Any info on him?? Posted by Clay on 10:16:2001 07:07 AM: sigma: Shun carries no relevance toward the SF Universe. He was created for the Alpha movie, and has only been in the Alpha/Zero movie. I suppose that if Capcom wanted, they could use him or a character similar to him in the games, but it wouldn't really make any sense. Ryu's set on his path, and I don't think that Capcom needs to make any revisions on his character. At this point, Ryu doesn't have any family. I don't know too much about Darkstalkers/Vampire Savior so I'll let somebody else tackle that one. Maybe Saiki could help. Sorry I couldn't be of more help on this one. -Clay Posted by sigma20xx on 10:16:2001 07:26 AM: That's cool man thanks your very insightful. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:16:2001 12:53 PM: Shun frightens me Oi vey... They should stick to Ryu being main character. Crazy anime writers... blah! They still only got SF done right ONCE with a movie and the SFA anime wasn't it (not hard to guess what was. SF The Animated Movie for those that don't get it) Wow, I knew Vega wanted a female body to act as his anchor a pretty good amount... that's why he made the dolls or at least Cammy in the first place, but... That actually does make a lot of sense... SFA3's Rose ending portrayed him as entering Rose's body, I believe... if Vega did create Rose, that WOULD make Rose 'the first doll', then... (though it would have been nice if Capcom gave some in-game hints if Vega truly did create Rose from scratch like he seems to have done with Cammy) Randomness: Momo is 16? I thought Momo was like... 12 Oo She's so... small. Not to mention is referred to as a 'little girl'. When Chun Li refers to someone as 'just a little girl', she means 16 or below, but when Highschoolers do it, they usually have to mean 14 or below, at least, I figure. Also figured she was in highschool at such a young age because she's a child prodigy or so. Ultima: 150 hours, besides the fact that I tend to overexagerate length, includes the storyline being done from every aspect (but doesn't include... erm... noncanon stuff like Strider Hiryu or Final Street Fighter or maybe even Street Fighter EX). It'd probably be more like 100 hours, making the game a 2 part game, when I think about it. Alpha would probably take up the biggest chunk because Alpha timeline has the most characters as well as the most convuluted storyline. Don't know how much time SF2 or 3 would take up though. Actually, I feel SF2 or 3 will probably be nearly insignificant play time compared to Alpha. Alpha just has so much more villains, good guys, and varied goals compared to the later SFs. The main character Ryu's storyline doesn't advance at all during SF3 or 2, really, so once the RPG gets past Alpha, I actually think the storyline might start getting redundant when I think about it. SF2 looks like it'll have an incredibly boring storyline since you've already fought Shadaloo in Alpha and SF2's storyline would be basically "Destroy evil Shadowlaw again except now it's a piece of junk and you're doing it through a tournament instead of the RPG friendly wander-around-the-world-randomly-format" without even giving any new characters since Alpha 3 had them all. SF3 miiiiight be better, but most characters don't seem to have very high stakes when they go after Gill, do they? At least, I don't think Gill has a Rose or a Guy going after him to save the world. Everyone who goes after Gill in SF3 does so for mostly just personal reasons, don't they? That and unlike Vega, Gill doesn't have an array of special characters that work for him to be enemy bosses for you to fight against. The exception being his 12 pack of playdough freaks but I'm pretty sure by then people will be tired of the whole twelve-super-soldier thing since like I said, I'm pretty sure the dolls (which the player has already gone through) did that whole twelve super soldier thing much better (please don't tell me you prefer playdough troops to dolls... even from a nondoll fanboy perspective I can't fathom that Oo). Basically, when I think about it, all Capcom would really have to cover with an RPG that followed Street Fighter canon completely is probably Alpha. If they wanted, they could throw in Final Fight and all. They really can't do a "Final Street Fighter" scenario also because then they'd be limited to what they could do with Street Fighter 4... or maybe not, since I imagine SF4 will be throwing the SF history to the winds anyway and coming up with a completely all new storyline RANDOMLY out of nowhere (Was there any foreshadowing to Gill in previous SFs whatsoever? :eek The twelve dolls could all be fought as boss battles for various characters (wouldn't fight all at once. Throughout the storyline you'd run into some, like... running into some of the Elements girls in Xenogears. Optimally, you could play as [some of?] them if you could play from a villain perspective when you play as Cammy's perspective, but I don't think that has a prayer of happening no matter how much I'd like that, myself >:P). We might not know anything about their fighting styles, but Capcom does, and I assume Capcom would be the ones making the game (They'd BETTER be the ones making the game. Last thing we need is another StreetFighter Live Action Movie fiasco except in RPG format instead of Movie format *shudder*). Rose should at least have to fight Aprile and T Hawk fight Noembelu, after all. If Capcom doesn't have a fighting style for each of the dolls, they can make one up on the fly. They've always done stuff like that before:P I imagine with so many perspectives and character storylines and characters who are good guys, they'd be needing as many bosses as possible... the player can only fight Balrog, Vega, Sagat, and M. Bison so much before getting sick of them Watch Chun Li, Guile, and Charlie destroy that enemy Shadowlaw Tank boss!!!!!!! ....that'd actually be kinda fun. The total gameplay for an Alpha only game (including possibly SF1 and Final Fight) would probably be around 60 to 70 hours if done right, I think, considering the amount of playable characters. Although I love Saga Frontier 2 style game play with replayable character scenarios... the main problem I see is that things will get insanely lopsided towards the Alpha scenario compared to the others I'm pretty sure... Of course, this is assuming the RPG followed strict canon. If the RPG were a what-if storyline that allowed for expansion of the SF3 universe as well as a finale or something to explain the point of having Alpha and SF3 within the same game (they really don't connect at all for the most part...) then that would change everything. It's... hard to come up with a strictly canon RPG storyline or even a fanfic when you look at it in that context sadly. It's why I gave up long ago, myself. Tiamat to a Friend who was discouraged when he discovered Sagat wasn't a Shadowlaw Lord anymore: You see, my reasoning for going off canon and just going into my own SF universe without any guilt of straying from the canon is this. With Capcom, what's canon today probably won't be canon tomorrow. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:16:2001 01:19 PM: Random storyline note: Ryu, Ken, Sagat, and Sakura do NOT fight Juni and Juli in SFA3. :P Nor does Guile. Chun Li does, but Chun Li's storyline in SFA3 didn't happen I feel (it would directly contradict Balrog's/Vega's and Cammy's as well as possibly Guile's endings, which all DID happen). The only characters thus that can be confirmed to have run into the dolls in the actual canon (Karin and Dan do but Karin's and Dan's ending didn't happen either) would be T. Hawk, Rose, and Cammy (obviously) then, I imagine... (Juni's ending didn't happen, also, so it's doubtful that she ran into Ryu but she might have). I'd be surprised if Chun Li didn't run into the dolls on her various interpol missions, but if so, she probably never truly was able to realize they were out of the ordinary. Heck, she probably saw Cammy briefly while at Mrigranka to bomb the place, too, as per Cammy's ending, but that was about it. Also why Juni's ending shows that Chun Li never 'confirmed' those super soldiers beforehand. The point of this post? None, really. That's why it's titled "Random storyline note." :P Posted by Golden Hell on 10:16:2001 01:46 PM: Since Vega created and trained Rose, why did he make her good? Or did she turn good against Vega's wishes? And how did she escape from his clutches? Kinda goes with the whole Vega incompetence thing. Its pretty cool though that Rose is (more than likely) the first doll. I've always heard some rumors that she was the first but this is the closest thing to an official answer. And with Vega, was the body that was destroyed in SFZ3 his original body (meaning that that was the very first time he "died")? So this is all we know of Vega so far (please correct or add anything, guys): 1) Vega was born 2) Trained with an unknown master and with two other students 3) Mastered Psycho Power (is psycho power a martial art or is it just energy derived from the drive?) 4) Created Rose and Shadaloo 5) Created Cammy (for a back-up host body) and kidnapped girls from around the world 6) Killed Chunli's father (not really sure where this goes) 7) Kicked T. Hawk's tribe out of their homeland (again, not sure where this goes) 8) Made himself known in Zero 1/2 (since they're basically the same storyline-wise) 9) Caught Ryu and subjected him to Psycho Power in Zero 3 10) Lost to Ken and Sakura 11) Got betrayed by Sagat and ran away from the team of Ryu, Ken, Sakura, and Sagat 12) Got betrayed by the dolls 13) Fought Nash in his headquarters 14) His body dies but his psyche enters Rose's body (did his body die when his base blew up?) 15) Has a new body created and psyche enters that one 16) Invites his enemies to enter the SF2 tournament 17) Finally dies at the hands of Gouki Please correct any mistakes or add anything that was left out. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:16:2001 03:49 PM: The White Wolf Street Fighter RPG (as in Dungeouns and Dragons style) game which is supooooosedly canon up to a point (later versions aren't canon though. Particularly the ones with furry fighters and cyborgs *shudder*) states that Bison's fighting style is Ler Drit. Or Lerd Rit. I forget how it's spelled. Ler Drit is an actual Martial Arts style used by most military type people in Thailand and is supposedly a very very brutal style which is good for breaking up riots or something Oo Posted by Golden Hell on 10:16:2001 04:20 PM: Yeah, I collected all those White Wolf books (even have that cover board for the gamemaster). However, I'm not too sure how accurate those books are. I think for Ryu's bio they said that he was half-german and I really doubt that's true. But I have read in other mags about Bison's style being Ler Drit, however I don't know if thats info from CapcomUSA or official info from Capcom Japan. Hope someone can shed some light. On another note, those RPG books were kinda fun, but I mainly made characters instead of playing out adventures. That whole grid battle system didn't really jive with me; and none of my friends really cared for the game in general. I did like some of the characters they created for those intro stories, especially the Spanish ninja with the sword. Posted by Siegfried on 10:16:2001 05:53 PM: I had the RPG and two expansion books, including the Shadaloo one. It wasn't that much fun to do your own characters; we would mainly play with the existing characters. But I didn't like the American-centred, almost SF: the Movie style of the characters. The WW system gives every trait a number from 1-5, with higher numbers being superhuman. Chun-Li has an Appearance of 5, fine. But Cammy and Vega have an Appearance of 7!!! Vega I can understand (although no games ever show him as beautiful as he's supposed to be), but Cammy? Also, the Cammy in their illustrations look very old, very busty and generally like the Kylie movie version... ugh... And except for the official SSF2T art, all Chun-Li pictures are really ugly ^_^. And don't forget the cover with Cammy and Blanka... ugh. About the same style as the very first SF2 cover ^_^. Posted by FistsofFury on 10:16:2001 07:12 PM: quote: Originally posted by Golden Hell And with Vega, was the body that was destroyed in SFZ3 his original body (meaning that that was the very first time he "died")? They say Bison has had meany forms...I'm pretty sure that's not the only body he's had...we just don't know them yet. quote: So this is all we know of Vega so far (please correct or add anything, guys): 1) Vega was born 2) Trained with an unknown master and with two other students 3) Mastered Psycho Power (is psycho power a martial art or is it just energy derived from the drive?) 4) Created Rose and Shadaloo 5) Created Cammy (for a back-up host body) and kidnapped girls from around the world 6) Killed Chunli's father (not really sure where this goes) 7) Kicked T. Hawk's tribe out of their homeland (again, not sure where this goes) 8) Made himself known in Zero 1/2 (since they're basically the same storyline-wise) 9) Caught Ryu and subjected him to Psycho Power in Zero 3 10) Lost to Ken and Sakura 11) Got betrayed by Sagat and ran away from the team of Ryu, Ken, Sakura, and Sagat 12) Got betrayed by the dolls 13) Fought Nash in his headquarters 14) His body dies but his psyche enters Rose's body (did his body die when his base blew up?) 15) Has a new body created and psyche enters that one 16) Invites his enemies to enter the SF2 tournament 17) Finally dies at the hands of Gouki Seems pretty right to me, some of that stuff I didn't even know about 0_o. Posted by Clay on 10:16:2001 08:24 PM: There’s a lot to digest here, so I’m going to try and find my way through it. I still have questions of my own, but I’ll do what I can. Vega seems to have weaved quite the web of deception. quote: Originally posted by Golden Hell Since Vega created and trained Rose, why did he make her good? Or did she turn good against Vega's wishes? And how did she escape from his clutches? Kinda goes with the whole Vega incompetence thing. Its pretty cool though that Rose is (more than likely) the first doll. I've always heard some rumors that she was the first but this is the closest thing to an official answer. And with Vega, was the body that was destroyed in SFZ3 his original body (meaning that that was the very first time he "died")? Golden Hell: Rose didn’t turn good. Vega made her good. While this doesn’t seem to be a very good idea at first, his true reasoning will become readily apparent. Rose is the “good” side of Vega’s psyche. By expelling all that is “good” within him, Vega is able to concentrate on his dark side. His Psycho powers now will become exponentially more powerful (not really sure how much, but there is a difference). If Vega had never created Rose, than he would be limiting his Psycho abilities. The good and evil aspects of himself would cancel each other out, so while he could still use Psycho Power, he wouldn’t be able to use it to his full potential. By making himself totally evil, his Psycho Powers are able to fully manifest themselves. If your are familiar with Dragonball, it's kind of like the way the Kame and Piccolo split up. One side was composed of everything that was good, while the other was its polar opposite. They had two distinctly different personas. I’m not sure how Rose got away, hopefully Vega wasn’t stupid enough to just let her go. Although, it is possible that Vega let her go because he new that he would need her later. If Vega new that he could take over Rose, then he definitely should have used my plan for capturing Ryu. With the Psycho Drive and Rose as an escape clause from death, he should have been more than willing to go toe to toe with an enraged Ryu. I think that it would have been the best way to take over Ryu. On another note, I’m pretty sure that that was Vega’s original body in Z3. Can’t be sure, because we don’t know how old Vega truly is, but it would make sense. quote: 3) Mastered Psycho Power (is psycho power a martial art or is it just energy derived from the drive?) 14) His body dies but his psyche enters Rose's body (did his body die when his base blew up?) Yeah, Nash finally gets a shot at Vega and seems to bring him along for the ride. Of course, Vega makes a return appearance, which makes Nash’s move all the more futile. I always liked Nash (at least more than Guile, it’s just a personal preference) so it was nice to see him take stop Vega from killing the both of them. The look on Vega’s face when Nash grabs him from behind is…priceless. Also, Psycho Power could be considered a fighting style, but I view it as a technique and a form of energy that it is used, kind of like Hadou. I think that Capcom has listed Psycho Power as Vega’s fighting style because most of his attacks are based off of his PK abilities (Psycho Crusher, teleportation, flight, Psycho Shot…etc.). The Psycho Drive just enhances his abilities, it doesn’t create them. Saiki: When Vega enters Rose’s body, is it Rose or Vega who is in control. How long does Rose physically exist after Z3? Why does Vega bring Rose with him into his new body? This would weaken him. Is it more of a case of Rose dying and then her consciousness entering Vega’s body? You said that Cammy shares the same soul as Vega/Rose, correct? I guess that this means that Vega will always be able to come back as long as Cammy is alive. So, in order to fully rid the world of Vega, Cammy must die as well. Sucks to be Cammy. Also, is Rose’s body a genetic clone of Vega’s as well? Why is Rose a part of Vega’s psyche while Cammy seems to have her own personality? -Clay Posted by Golden Hell on 10:16:2001 08:48 PM: Great explanation about Vega and Rose, Clay! That makes alot of sense and makes Vega seem even more ruthless. I wish it'd be explained how Rose left him though, but I guess thats really just a small detail. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:16:2001 09:45 PM: Storyline wise, I'm pretty sure Cammy is meant to be more beautiful than Chun Li. That's why Vega/Balrog takes such an interest in her. If she were any less beautiful than Vega was, then Vega wouldn't have cared for her. I think the only time Vega references Chun Li's beauty (if at all) is in the noncanon (even if almost canon) Street Fighter the Animated Movie. (Note, I'm going by US names this time. Heck, I'll probably go by US names in most of my posts. I personally think Balrog... really is a rather ugly name for a character that's supposed to be beautiful. Balrog sounds like Balron. And Balrons are ugly hideous demons. It also has the word "Rog." Which makes me think of ugly trolls and orcs and ogres and unsophisticated ME KLOMP J00! speech) Posted by Saiki on 10:16:2001 11:22 PM: Clay Actually, Capcom actually left something in the story that will allow Vega's return again. This is Cammy. Although she is only a clone of Vega's, it is enough for Vega to make his return. But this is only if Vega's soul survived against the Shungokusatsu. Oh yeah, when Vega entered Rose's body, it was Vega who had the dominant mind. Rose was technically dead. Also, Rose is not a genetic clone of Vega. Cammy is but Rose isn't. Rose reallt isn't a clone. Rose is basically Vega's good part of him taking a physical form with the powers of Soul Power.(One of the reasons why it's called Soul Power, because Rose is only a Soul taking a physical form). sigma20xx Shun has nothing to do with the actual storyline. The SFZ OVA is totally different from the storyline. dirty Beret is one of the team members that made Vampire Hunters or it is the name of the team. I can't remember which one. I know that he has nothing to do with the story though. Tiamat Well, Momo is refered as a little girl because she is in grade 10 while the rest is in grade 11 or 12. In Japan, one year of difference is big enough for someone to call the younger one a kid. Oh yeah, story-wise, Chunli is the most beautiful woman in SF with Rose coming in second. Cammy is third. It's just that Balrog met Cammy first out of the three so he fell in love with her. Golden Hell Rose actually did turn on Vega. Although Vega did create Rose, they didn't meet right off the beginning. It actually took a little while before the two actually met up. But when they first met up, Rose was actually obedient towards Vega. 1) Vega was born 2) Trained with an unknown master and with two other students 3) Mastered Psycho Power (is psycho power a martial art or is it just energy derived from the drive?) 4) Created Rose and Shadaloo 5) Created Cammy (for a back-up host body) and kidnapped girls from around the world 6) Killed Chunli's father (not really sure where this goes) 7) Kicked T. Hawk's tribe out of their homeland (again, not sure where this goes) Also killed T Hawk's father, Aloio Hawk, 30 years ago. Shadowloo was a fully made by this time. 8) Made himself known in Zero 1/2 (since they're basically the same storyline-wise) 9) Caught Ryu and subjected him to Psycho Power in Zero 3 10) Lost to Ken and Sakura 11) Got betrayed by Sagat and ran away from the team of Ryu, Ken, Sakura, and Sagat 12) Got betrayed by the dolls Somewhere around here he also fought Rose. 13) Fought Nash in his headquarters 14) His body dies but his psyche enters Rose's body (did his body die when his base blew up?) Yes, he was about to kill Guile with the Psycho Crusher but Nash grabbed him out of it and they blew up in the base. 15) Has a new body created and psyche enters that one 16) Invites his enemies to enter the SF2 tournament 17) Finally dies at the hands of Gouki Posted by Siegfried on 10:17:2001 07:30 PM: Balrogs are actually Tolkien's "great demons" and since I'm a Tolkien/LotR fan I don't like calling the beautiful Spaniard a big ugly, burning demon ^_^. Even though Bison sounds a little silly for the Shadaloo guy, it's either him or the Spaniard with that name... and since Vega is a Spanish word to begin with, it fits our claw-fighter better. Actually it would have been best if the boxer had been left as Bison and just switching the names Balrog and Vega... I'm always using the US names though, except with Kobun. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:17:2001 07:39 PM: Bison killed Arroro Hawk 30 years ago? Oo (It's spelled Arroro or something like that in the US version of Alpha 3. Makes sense since the letters 'l' and 'r' are frequently switched around in Japanese language, aren't they?) I guess that means Noembelu isn't T. Hawk's sister, after all, since she's only 16. That also means T Hawk's father died with he was like... one year old Oo (or four years. My numbers for T Hawk's age might be off) Well, she's still too young to be a girlfriend and too old to be a daughter, I think. She must be a cousin or maybe just a tribe member. Posted by Clay on 10:17:2001 07:44 PM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Clay Actually, Capcom actually left something in the story that will allow Vega's return again. This is Cammy. Although she is only a clone of Vega's, it is enough for Vega to make his return. But this is only if Vega's soul survived against the Shungokusatsu. Oh yeah, when Vega entered Rose's body, it was Vega who had the dominant mind. Rose was technically dead. Also, Rose is not a genetic clone of Vega. Cammy is but Rose isn't. Rose reallt isn't a clone. Rose is basically Vega's good part of him taking a physical form with the powers of Soul Power.(One of the reasons why it's called Soul Power, because Rose is only a Soul taking a physical form). Golden Hell Rose actually did turn on Vega. Although Vega did create Rose, they didn't meet right off the beginning. It actually took a little while before the two actually met up. But when they first met up, Rose was actually obedient towards Vega. Yeah, it took me awhile to associate Vega’s soul with Cammy so I didn’t mention it until I replied to Golden Hell. I thought that Rose had taken on a physical manifestation, thanks for clearing that up. I think that it would have been pretty stupid if Rose had been a clone of Vega, and this way, it explains why Cammy has her own separate identity. Did Vega create Rose subconsciously? Since he didn’t know who she was at first, it sounds like he made her automatically, without actually thinking about it. Also, was there a period of time when Rose existed physically while their soul had been joined (Vega’s mind in Rose’s body)? If so, did Vega do anything important during this time (did he use this body to help create a new one?)? Sorry for all the questions, but I find this very interesting. This is one of the few times that I have been fascinated by Vega. Now, if only he can shake his reputation of being a bungler. Thanks Saiki, for any information that you can provide. I am most grateful. -Clay Posted by Clay on 10:17:2001 08:00 PM: quote: Originally posted by Golden Hell Great explanation about Vega and Rose, Clay! That makes alot of sense and makes Vega seem even more ruthless. I wish it'd be explained how Rose left him though, but I guess thats really just a small detail. Thanks, I appreciate the compliment, but Saiki deserves most of the credit. He has been supplying us with a ton of useful information. I was just giving my interpretation of it. Sometimes, Capcom is a little vague with the info so you have to try and figure things out. This is how I gather my knowledge of SF. It’s hard to do, so I’m glad that Saiki is here to help out. Also, from what I gather, it sounds like Rose may have manifested herself. Vega seems to have subconsciously sealed what little good he has in him, which would allow him to better use his Psycho Powers. However, in doing so, he also seems to have created Rose (she is kind of like a split personality for Vega), who then took on a physical manifestation of her own. This is supported by the fact that Saiki said that they didn’t even know who they really were when the first met. It sounds like Vega accidentally created Rose in an attempt to increase his own power. Rose is a byproduct (as well as a counter) to Vega’s evil intentions. I’m not too sure if Vega new that he had created (or meant to create) Rose at all. Fortunately for Vega, he is still able to use her to his advantage. He seems to be a little more cunning than most people (I included) think (which is good, because I hate incompetent villains). Even though he made some pretty bad mistakes, he still found a way to survive. Let me know what you think, Saiki. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:18:2001 01:34 AM: Wow, just when I thought there couldn't be any more plot use for Cammy besides a revival... (I don't see M. Bison coming back through Cammy as a plot revival since it's been foreshadowed to. Wouldn't say it's glaring enough to be something that could be called 'unresolved', either, though) That'd be kinda cool. Still wouldn't explain why Bison had to make 12 other girls though. I don't think Chun Li's question, "Why did Bison create those girls?" was ever answered with the exception of Cammy. Since the other dolls obviously weren't made from scratch, don't think Bison intended to have them be alternate bodies too, and Bison doesn't mock Juni or Juli for beating him by saying he'll possess them like he does to Cammy. Poor Rose... If Bison ever did come back though, wonder what he'd do. Shadowloo's been destroyed for a while, after all. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:18:2001 04:23 AM: You know, I suddenly realize the symbolism of that official art piece where Rose is twirling around M. Bison's hat Oo It comes right after the official art piece where it looks like Bison is going to kill Rose (at least, I'm pretty sure those are official art pieces). Basically the first was Bison taking over and dominating Rose's mind, and the second... well... represents Bison as Rose before Shadowloo got his next body ready, of course. Yay? Posted by Clay on 10:18:2001 07:21 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Bison killed Arroro Hawk 30 years ago? Oo (It's spelled Arroro or something like that in the US version of Alpha 3. Makes sense since the letters 'l' and 'r' are frequently switched around in Japanese language, aren't they?) I guess that means Noembelu isn't T. Hawk's sister, after all, since she's only 16. That also means T Hawk's father died with he was like... one year old Oo (or four years. My numbers for T Hawk's age might be off) Well, she's still too young to be a girlfriend and too old to be a daughter, I think. She must be a cousin or maybe just a tribe member. It is kind of hard to figure out how Noembelu is connected to T. Hawk, isn't it? Technically, she could still be his sister (same mother, different father), but it does seem to be a little bit of a stretch. I'm not sure exactly what the relation is. She does appear to be too young to be his girlfriend as well, but at this point, who knows? It doesn't play into the story too much, but it is one of those details that might bother some people. That picture with Rose holding Vega's hat, is that from Zero 1 or Zero 2 (guide book)? That would be some pretty cool symbolism if it was supposed to represent the time period that Vega controlled Roses's body. That's a really good idea. Also, I don't think that Vega ever had the intention of possessing the other twelve dolls, but they were all pretty high ranking officials/assassins in Shadoloo. Does Capcom ever give any solid reasons as to why he kidnapped each of those girls from each of those countries? Perhaps Vega has thing for 16 year old girls. Posted by Clay on 10:19:2001 08:59 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Bison killed Arroro Hawk 30 years ago? Oo (It's spelled Arroro or something like that in the US version of Alpha 3. Makes sense since the letters 'l' and 'r' are frequently switched around in Japanese language, aren't they?) Yeah, his name was translated as Arroio Hawk, I believe. 30 years is a long time to hold a grudge, not saying that T. Hawk doesn’t have a good reason. How old is T. Hawk exactly? Can we get a bio on him if possible? I can’t seem to recall his birth date (big guy though, has an inch or two on Sagat, as well as nearly 100 lbs.). As for Noembelu, T. Hawk says that she has sacred blood running through her veins, but this just means that she is a member of his tribe. Actually, T. Hawk says this to Juli, but I think that it is safe to assume that it was meant for Noembelu. quote: That'd be kinda cool. Still wouldn't explain why Bison had to make 12 other girls though. I don't think Chun Li's question, "Why did Bison create those girls?" was ever answered with the exception of Cammy. Since the other dolls obviously weren't made from scratch, don't think Bison intended to have them be alternate bodies too, and Bison doesn't mock Juni or Juli for beating him by saying he'll possess them like he does to Cammy. Occam’s Razor: The simplest explanation is often times the correct one. Perhaps Vega was pleased with how well Cammy had worked out and thought that he would create a few more dolls. It would be simple enough to kidnap them, and he already had the technology and the process down. These girls may have also possessed certain qualities that Vega was looking for. With his Psycho powers and technology, it wouldn’t be too hard for him to track down his desired target(s). quote: Poor Rose... Not really much else to say. Once she realizes what is going to happen (Z3 ending; when Vega retaliates, and Rose sees a vision of what will become of her), it’s far too late. It's fairly ironic that she had set out to destroy him, only to end up being used to save him. She was nothing more than a pawn. If only she hadn’t insisted on taking on Vega by herself, things may have turned out better. She knew that she was going to die, but maybe if she had allied herself with the right people, she could have prevented Vega from reincarnating himself. Ryu, Rose, Sagat, Ken, and Sakura (as well as Guy) would have been able to easily overpower Vega, but hindsight is always 20/20. Of course, there’s always Cammy. Vega did a really good job of giving himself an escape clause (so to speak) from death. Actually, nobody should really have any pity for Rose in the first place, considering that she shouldn’t even exist at all. Rose vs. Vega is essentially Vega vs. himself. Rose “dying” is really just Vega becoming whole again. However, I can sympathize with you here, because I thought that Rose was a pretty cool character. I love her storyline, and her Zero 2 and 3 endings. Probably one of my favorite Zero/Alpha characters. Too bad. quote: If Bison ever did come back though, wonder what he'd do. Shadowloo's been destroyed for a while, after all. I don’t think that he needs Shadoloo to be an effective villain. In fact, I’d rather see Shadoloo stay dead. I think that it would only work towards Vega's advantage to stay out of the world wide crime scene that he was previosly involved in. He could always try to contact Senoh if he had to. He must have discovered a few new tricks (judging by his latest work). I think that it’s possible that he may search for a different body again. Even if it is a rehashed storyline, I can’t think of anything else for him to do. I would really like to see some interaction between Vega and Gill. They are total opposites, so I would like to see how they would react to each other. I could see Urien joining or using Vega in an attempt to get rid of Gill. There are a lot of possibilities. Would Ryu get drawn into the mix, or would Vega target new blood (Alex, Sakura). Since Gill and Urien are god-like in power, would Vega consider taking over their bodies? With some of the enhancements made in biotechnology (Twelve; Gill and Urien’s studies) maybe Vega would decide to create the all-powerful body that he desires. That option seems like only a temporary solution at best. Also, what would Vega’s new body look like? It is possible that he could return without other characters recognizing him. There are some very interesting scenarios. -Clay Posted by Siegfried on 10:19:2001 02:58 PM: For your information, the scientist shown in some Third Strike endings isn't Senoh. This one has another name which I forgot. T.Hawk was born in 1959, making him 31 in SFA3 and 34 in SSF2T. Posted by FistsofFury on 10:19:2001 04:23 PM: Interesting perspective on Bison coming back. But it seems to me that If Akuma got him, Bison would stay dead. I personally think Gill and Urien would despise Vega (Bison) simply because he's a bumbling, greedy fool. After all the attempts, Bison failed, being killed twice. Gill and Urien consider themselves gods, I think they would scoff at somebody like Bison (Vega), whos just simply a little better than a normal man, who is trying to act like a god, simply a poser for something he's not. I think they'd kill him on sight. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:19:2001 05:50 PM: Ah, cool, I knew T Hawk was either 34 during SSFT which would make him 31 during SFA3, or he was just 34 during SFA3... ah well. That's really young when dad died... well, I'm not sure if he even knows M. Bison killed his father, does he? At least, in the US version, while Bison mentions his father, he seems to just shrug it off and rant more about kidnapping his tribe members like Noembelu (Well, Julia, but I think we can all assume Juli in his storyline should be switched out for Noembelu). In SSFT, he's more angry about being booted off his homeland. At any rate, this does show that Bison himself... is a very very old person now Oo Bison is thus probably at least 45 during SFA3 and probably more than that, I think... had to have been at least 15 years old (probably more) when he killed the father of a tribe like that He probably created Rose around the time he was mastering psycho power (without knowing that he created her) around 15 - 20 years of age then (he had to have had psycho power before he killed T Hawk's dad, I imagine). Which would make Rose 25 - 30 or so years old, which seems about right from how she looks. Was Rose confirmed to be truly dead, again? I mean... I believe the current storyline is that Shadowlaw scientists made a new body for M. Bison so he transferred from Rose (twirling the M. Bison cap, most likely... weee :P) to the new one. Then Gouki killed him. But the raging demon kills by attacking vital spots on the BODY, not the soul, so it could be said that Gouki just killed that body and since Shadowloo crumbled, they couldn't make him a new one, but if the Rose one never died, then he could theretically go back to that. Without Shadowloo around, it looks like M. Bison will be stuck being a lady for a while... Though I think that would seriously rule if in a later street Fighter you ended up fighting Shin Rose or whatever and she'd be basically... well, Bison cept probably having the feminine demeanor of Rose (Okay, Rose can be evil, but I would prefer she not have a 'manly' mind....) :P Continuing on that and about Bison being killed twice... hey, everything is always best when it happens in three's, not two's, I always say. And Capcom seems to agree with SFA going up to three and SFIII having three installments... >:P Okay, that last one was sooorta a joke. Rose and Vega might be the same person originally, but I think that Rose became a person for herself over time after splitting off from Bison? At least, she seems to have felt emotions that he didn't. Like how she wanted to kill him while he really didn't seem to care for her, even going to far as making up a backup body in the form of Cammy to show how much he didn't care about her (no wonder why Rose is mad after Bison sends Juli and Juni after her). Erm... yea:P Oi vey, that story FAQ is going to take a while to write... I think I'll just do it character by character instead of one long ass fanfic variation... Posted by Clay on 10:20:2001 05:55 AM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried For your information, the scientist shown in some Third Strike endings isn't Senoh. This one has another name which I forgot. T.Hawk was born in 1959, making him 31 in SFA3 and 34 in SSF2T. Don't be so quick as to make assumptions about who I'm talking about. I fully realize that those are two different characters (can't think of a name for the 3s scientist). I should have been clearer about what I was talking about. I believe that Senoh is pictured in SF3: New Generation. Check Necro's background, and you can seem him scrambling about. This is what I was referring to in my previous post. This means that Senoh had, at the very least, been connected to the same projects that Twelve had been created in. NG seems to hint that it was Senoh who had a major hand in creating Necro, who is the precursor to Twelve. If Senoh is still alive, then I think that he would prove most useful to Vega. I think that that was Senoh in NG. If I'm wrong, then please let me know! By the way, thanks for T. Hawk's birth date. FoF: Though I don't doubt that Gill and Urien are more powerful than Vega, I'm not so sure that he would go down so easily. If Vega was foolish enough to try and go up against Gill right away, then I totally agree with you. Vega would be overpowered. However, I don't believe that Urien would fare as well. Not only does Urien seem to be a lot weaker than Gill, he also comes off as overly power hungry, which can lead to some foolishness on his part. I think that mentally, Urien isn't a very strong fighter because he has so many insecurities and suffers from insane amounts of jealousy. Either way, I think that Vega may be able to use Urien to his advantage. Urien seems to be somewhat of a brute and relies too much on his brawn (I'm not trying to downplay Urien, because he seems to be very intelligent and the Aegis Reflecter is an excellent weapon, however, I think that he has a few too many character flaws). This also works to Vega's advantage, as his Psycho Powers are more varied in techniques (flight, telekinesis, teleportation). While I think that Vega could easily screw up once again, and get annihilated, I would like to hope that he would have a few new tricks up his sleeve. If he were able to find a body that was strong enough, Vega’s power would dramatically increase. -Clay Posted by Siegfried on 10:20:2001 10:17 AM: Hmmm, strange. I can't find Senoh in the All About Capcom book (not under the name "Senoh" anyway) so I can't check if he's listed to have appeared in SF3. I know who you're talking of though... Well, it could be Senoh or some other crazy little scientist. Then again the game is full of cameos so... Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:20:2001 03:57 PM: You can also see a corpse... erm, unconscious person that looks and wears an outfit just like Shadowlaw Cammy's in Makoto's ending, I hear. Of course, storyline wise, that could never be anything than a mere pointless easter egg not-meant-to-be-serious canon... Wow, Senoh would be really really old by SF3... Posted by Siegfried on 10:20:2001 07:49 PM: Not really. SF3 takes place only 9 years after SFA2 where he was first spotted. He could easily live that long; especially since he's a nutty professor and can do all kinds of creepy things ^_^. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:20:2001 08:37 PM: LOL!!! That's true. I forgot. Those silly nutty mad scientists have rather long life spans if they're not cut short by the good guys... which Senoh's has yet to be even near. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:22:2001 01:59 AM: www.geocities.com/lordbahamut.geo/SFAstory.html Aaaaah, I think I'll start with Alpha first. That's the most complicated part and it would be nice to get everyone to stop saying that SFA3 isn't canon, for once. Right now all I have is a list of which endings happened and which didn't, though. I'll be including descriptions of the actual official way they probably happened, too. Posted by Clay on 10:22:2001 08:40 PM: Siegfried: Thanks for checking up on Senoh. I think that it looks like him, but I don't know for sure. Anyway, my point was, if he is still around, then he must have knowledge of some very valuable information. If anybody has some information on his whereabouts, then please let me know. Tiamat: So far, so good. You have done a good job summing everything up. The way it looks now, it will be an excellent source of information. I have a few questions/comments, but I'll post them up later; I don't have time at the moment. Thanks for the credits list, I appreciate the thought. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:22:2001 10:07 PM: This thing is ridiculously preliminary right now. You can see lots of my notes hanging around here that probably won't be in the final version. I may decide to completely change the layout... actually, I'm really unsure of everything there right now, so any comments, criticisms, and stuff which sucks so bad that I should just forget about it is wholly appreciated^^ Posted by Saiki on 10:23:2001 03:41 AM: Clay It'd be cool if Vega did come back and Vega and Gill had some conflicts between each other. I can actually see Vega using Urien instead of Urien using Vega. Urien is too caught up in trying to take Gill out so in that sense I think Vega would be the user instead of the used. And if Vega wanted to, he could most likely take out Urien. Although Urien is very strong, I don't think he's up their with Vega. Siegfried Here's T Hawk's stats. Birthday: 1959 July 21 Height: 230cm Weight: 162kg BWH sizes: B114, W98, H112 Blood type: O Birthplace: Mexico Likes: Hair accessories, animals Dislikes: Lies Fighting Style: Thunder Foot martial arts I have full stats for all SF, RS, FF, and MB crew in my incomplete(don't know when it'll be complete) story FAQ. I'll post it up tommorow since it's a pretty long list. Tiamat The Shungokusatsu actually does attack the victims soul. to be correct, the user takes the opponent and himself to hell for a split second. While in hell, the other person is haunted by past sins and killed by the demons in hell. The user also must be able to survive the whole thing as well. Oh yeah, I personally think that Rose is dead but Capcom has never confirmed that. They did say that Vega went into Rose's body but they never did say if Vega took Rose with him into the new body. I'm just assuming that he did but their is a possiblity that Rose stayed in her own body. But if Rose did stay in her own body, her soul would have been damaged quite a bit. Most likely causing her to stay in a coma for a long time. And like you said, Rose is a totally separate personality now from Vega. And since you did say to give you comments, criticisms and stuff so I'll start with a few things. Adon's official ending Adon did defeat Sagat. But Sagat was defeated not because he didn't care. It's because Sagat was filled with rage which caused Sagat to fight at half his real strength. Gouki's ending/Gen's ending Well, I just realized I was thinking the wrong thing the whole entire time. Before I thought Gouki's ending was the real one but I was wrong. To be correct neither is. Here's what happenned. Gen is a great assassin and owner of the restaurant Genhanten. When he learned that he had a un-curable sickness, he set off into the underground world so he would die in battle. For a while he kept on taking out random Shadowloo people hoping that someone from Shadowloo would give him a challenge. Then he got into a battle with Gouki. Gouki pulls the Shungokusatsu on Gen, and Gen survives. Gen does his Zan-ei on Gouki and gouki survives. As the battle goes on, Gouki realises that Gen is sick and the two set apart. Neither one won the battle. Then in Z3, Gouki defeats Gen finally. The Interpol Saga The Interpol didn't refuse to go after Shadowloo. It's just that Vega had control over many of the superior people in the interpol. Same goes for the US army. That's why Nash had to steal the Jet fighter he has in Z2 and Z3. Rolento Schugerg isn't official. It might be but I've yet to find anything official listing that as Rolento's last name. Chun-Li is actually Chunli and Fei-Long is Feilong. Chunli and Feilong is each ones first name. Cammy's last name is White. That was confirmed. M. Bison is Mike Bison but Im pretty sure you know this Here's Cammy's bio Birthday: 1974 January 6 Height: 164cm Weight: 46kg BWH sizes: B86, W57, H88 Blood type: B Birthplace: ? Special Skill: ? Likes: Collecting data from fights (Shadowloo) Cats (Delta Red) Dislikes: Sympathy (Shadowloo) Anything when she's pissed off (Delta Red) Fighting Style: Shadowloo elite special force techniques Other than that good job man. Oh yeah, like I told Seig, I'll post all the bio's for the chars tommorow. And if anyone cares, I got the portraits from CvS2. I've posted them on my site. Here's the links. http://www.geocities.com/saiki_selm/Capcom_art_CvS2.zip http://www.geocities.com/saiki_selm/SNK_art_CvS2.zip The Capcom one is about 2 megs and the SNk one is about 1.7 megs. Not all of them are showing the full body but I think it's better than anything one the net right now. Posted by Azrael-sama on 10:23:2001 03:54 AM: Wow, great stuff, as usual. One question though - for Gouki's Shungokusatsu - if the move really does transport the victim to hell, and their past sins inflicts the damage against them, wouldn't the maneuver be useless against certain characters? Like Sakura - I can only guess, but you'd think she's fairly sin-free. So if Gouki did the satsu on her, I can't really see her past sins killing her...unless the trip alone was enough to do it. But what about Ryu? Once again, you can't say for sure, but I think Ryu's a fairly pure character...and I think he's strong enough to survive the trip to hell, so wouldn't he possibly survive the satsu? -Az Posted by Saiki on 10:23:2001 04:01 AM: What happens during the shungokusatsu is that they goto hell. The demons in hell will attack the person even if they're sin free or not. They're demons, they'll go at anything. But with evil characters, their past sins will also haunt on top of the demons attacking them for that split second. Gen survives this because he empties his spirit, heart and mind. "Onore wo mu ni suru". "Mu" means emptiness, nothingness. One of the reasons why Gouken has the kanji "Mu" on his back. It's really not about how strong the person is but how tuned and focused they are with their mind and soul. Posted by Clay on 10:23:2001 04:02 AM: Saiki! I saw your post so I thought that I'd stop by. It's been awhile. quote: It'd be cool if Vega did come back and Vega and Gill had some conflicts between each other. I can actually see Vega using Urien instead of Urien using Vega. Urien is too caught up in trying to take Gill out so in that sense I think Vega would be the user instead of the used. And if Vega wanted to, he could most likely take out Urien. Although Urien is very strong, I don't think he's up their with Vega. Yeah, this is what I was alluding to. I could see Urien "using" Vega against Gill, but actually what I meant to say was that Urien would be a pawn in Vega's plans . Vega would let Urien think that he was the one in control in order to further his (Vega's) plans. Saiki already covered a lot of the points that I was going to bring up (and then some), but I'll double check to see if I have any other comments. Thanks for the artwork as well Saiki. Check some of my earlier Vega ramblings to make sure that I was fairly accurate. See ya' later. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:23:2001 04:17 AM: Quickie questions. I assume that Adon's ending in SFA2 happened before Dan's, then? Assuming my synopsis of Dan's ending is correct. Oh yea, I found out about the Interpol thing while studying Guile's ending again. I need to change that. Thanks^^ In Guile's ending, Chunli comments that the bombing was called off which was one of Bison's tricks. *records records records* Rolento Schugerg... admittingly, I copied and pasted the character list from another FAQ to save my hands some carpel tunnel syndrome and forgot to delete that last name, yet BTW, I'm starting with Alpha since it needs the most explaining, but if I have time and energy after this, I'll expand it to the other Street Fighter series and Final Fight yada yada yada, too. Posted by Saiki on 10:23:2001 04:29 AM: tiamat Yeah, Adon's happenned before Dan's did. Like you said on your faq, Sagat let Dan beat him. But I'm kinda surprised that Sagat didn't kill Dan when Dan made fun of him for losing and offered to be his teacher. I dunno, if I was Sagat, I would've killed him on spot. Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure you've noticed but I'll keep using the Japanese names since I'm more used to them. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:23:2001 04:56 AM: That's true.... hmm. Well, I suppose there is the fact that Dan's storyline in SFA3 most likely never happened... at least, not in any tangible way. Yea, I imagine if he really did meet Sagat and do that, Sagat would not have been a happy camper. Sagat DOES have his dignity after all. Course, Dan's SFA3 ending ends with him and Blanka blowing up anyway so... Poor Dan's ending didn't have a chance against Charlie's for funniest ending, though. Tis all good. M. Bison, Balrog, and Vega are so different from each other that it's not hard to figure out which one is being referred to no matter which name is used. Posted by Clay on 10:23:2001 05:30 AM: Thoughts on the FAQ: -Saiki is correct when he says that Sagat didn’t lose to Adon because he ignored him or didn’t care. More accurately, Sagat was filled with rage and his mind was unbalanced. More often than not, the best fighters in the SF Universe are the ones who have total control of themselves. Ryu, Gouken, Oro, Gill, Gouki, Goutetsu, and Gen are perfect examples of this. They are nearly unbeatable not only because they possess an incredible amount of skill and experience, but also because they have mastery over their own minds and emotions. They cannot be tricked into making foolish decisions because they are calm and rational at all times, mentally, they are invincible. Even the most powerful weapons and techniques are useless if one does not possess enough self-control to use them wisely. When Sagat fought Adon, he had lost focus of himself, and therefore, was not able to fight up to his full potential. -Regarding what you said about Sagat’s Z2 ending: Sagat was temporarily a member of Shadoloo. He was approached by Vega and did join. I think that Sagat also wanted to use Shadoloo’s resources to help him track down Ryu for his rematch. However, after Sagat came to terms with his defeat and regained his ideals (also a true warrior’s spirit), he decided to separate himself from Vega. He is an honorable man and their isn’t any room for honor within Shadoloo. Sagat realized that he didn’t fit in with Vega’s evil intentions and that he was being used by Vega. Note: Sagat’s initial joining of Shadoloo illustrates just how lost he actually was (as mentioned in the previous statement). Sagat was so blinded by hatred and his desire for revenge that he allowed himself to join an international crime syndicate. Sagat was very vulnerable and beat-able (as Adon proves) during this time. This shows all of the character flaws and personal weaknesses that Sagat eventually overcame in his Z2 ending. -You are correct that Sagat fights Psycho Ryu, but you said that Sagat, Sakura, and Ken all have scenarios in SFZ3 where they confront him. I believe that only Sagat and Sakura confront him in the game. Ken’s pre-Vega boss is Sakura. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I’ll check out the game tomorrow. -I had wanted to point this out before, but Chun li (as well as Nash) had to attack Vega on her own because of the corruption of the higher-ups. Vega had long arms, and he was able to control Interpol and the US military. A good example of this is seen in Guile’s ending. Guile spoke of a plan to bomb Shadoloo’s base in Thailand. It turns out that it was a fake and was planned by Vega as ploy to throw Nash and Chun off of his trail. Even though Nash’s Z2 ending didn’t happen, it still shows Vega’s philosophy on this subject. He states that every man has his price, and is able to use the US government’s own artillery and manpower to kill Nash. -Considering that Vega lost his first body in the explosion, I don’t think that Nash had any chance of surviving. His death is official. Like you, I hope it stays this way. -Minor Note: You should mention that Guy does defeat Zeku and succeeds him as the 39th (is it 39th?) Bushin-ryuu Master. -Minor Note: In your misc. section, you should throw in the fact that Z3 takes place in 1990 while SSF2T is in 1993. -Final minor note: Tiamat: “Balrog in Japan is Bison in America” Should read: Balrog in Japan is Vega in America Tiamat: Those are my initial thoughts on the FAQ. I think that it is very good so far, and I didn’t mean to nit-pick with that last one, but I thought that you should see it. I’m sure that I’ll have some more comments later, but it will probably be just tidbits of info or a different interpretation of something. Good job. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:23:2001 06:35 AM: Whoops. How'd I miss that Japanese name thing? Oi vey, those names can get confusing sometimes. Ack! I wonder if I should include all this Sagat info within his character bio or within his SFA2 ending... well, whatever. I'll throw it into his character bio. Yea, Ken's boss is Sakura^^ This is why Ken's ending is listed in the "didn't happen" endings section, I believe. I saw that previously in SF story threads, it was stated that Ken did confront M. Bison along with Sakura while Sagat fought Ryu. Right now to reconcile this, I'm going along with Ryu's ending, where Ken was there with Ryu after Ryu got over his brainwashing. However, if I'm wrong on this, correction is good. It's something I'm not sure about, myself. Because Ken is there with Ryu in Ryu's ending, I assume Capcom wanted all three (Ken, Sagat, and Sakura) to officially be there with Ryu at the end of the Ryu Saga part of SFA3. Wow, I didn't realize that interpretation of every man having his price Oo *records* Yep^^ I just recorded Zeku down. Did a quick rummage through Fighter Mania to gather up some miscellaneous info... boy, there's a lot:P Okay, adding time line^^ Can someone give me the dates again for the other games that happened around here? (Final Fight, yada yada) Well, don't have to, I think, but would be goodly. Ack! Now I need to rummage through this thread to figure out who the publisher of All About Capcom is. Apologies if this post seems one-linery. Need to get going to bed finally Posted by Clay on 10:23:2001 07:10 AM: Okay, I thought that your FAQ implied that Ken fought Psycho Ryu in Z3 (in the actual game, not the storyline). I didn’t mean for it to sound like I was saying that Ken wasn’t there at all. Ken was definitely there with Sakura, Ryu, and Sagat. While Ken’s ending didn’t happen, some parts of his Z3 story are true. Ken must have fought/met with Sakura before Vega came, which would explain why she is his boss. I’m not totally sure on the chronology of the everybody’s interaction (Ryu, Sagat, Ken, Sakura) but I assume that Ryu had a nice “chat” with each one of them before he took off. -Talked to Sakura and apologized for his weakness. Vowed to be even stronger when they next meet. -Exchanged gratitude for each other’s help with Ken. Eagerly awaits new challenges, and their next meeting. -Mentioned that he must overcome any weaknesses inside himself to Sagat. Asked Sagat to wait for him, so that they may have their final showdown when they are both at the top of their game. Sorry about the miscommunication. About Sagat and Dan: I think that it shows just how much Sagat has matured. In the past, he may have slaughtered Dan for his insults, but now, Sagat has his priorities straight and doesn’t care for titles. In this sense, he has become a lot like Ryu. He no longer cares what others think of him, he only lives to put himself against Ryu, which is what he believes is his ultimate test. Sagat has taken his worst defeat, and become a better person because of it. I only wish that we could see Ryu vs. Sagat in a game. -Clay Posted by Azrael-sama on 10:23:2001 07:22 AM: Thanks for posting the CvS2 art Saiki. I have actually been wanting it for a while now, but like you said, you can't really find it on the net - especially the Capcom stuff for some reason. For some reason, I can't DL the SNK art right now, so for the moment I'll just comment on the Capcom art... Benimaru - really looks like a girl. I know he's a little strange Capcom, but geez... Bison - Once again, it looks like he's taken far too many punches to the head. Cammy - I think Capcom did a great job on her, she looks great Chun-Li - I really like the work they did on Chun-Li's face, she looks her best here IMHO. The pose aint bad either. Iori - Iori looks good, as does Orochi Iori Ken - Really odd pose... King - I like...retains her feminine look, but still has the tomboy-ish look as well Mai - What the hell kind of pose is that?! Not that I'm complaining... Morrigan - I think this is great. Not as cute as her past portraits, but more provocative, which I think better suits her. Rock - Geez Capcom, why? In CvS1, Kyo looked like a scared little boy. Now, Rock looks like a scared little girl. I swear, I get him and King mixed up on the character select screen constantly. Poor Rock... Sakura - Really strange pose... Vice - I like - and this is along the lines of Morrigan again. Not so much cute, but still provocative, and it suits Vice well. Yun - They really messed Yun up. What the hell is up with his lips? -Az Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:23:2001 04:55 PM: Hey Clay, tis no problem^^ Like I said, I'm really unsure about how the Ryu thing works out. There isn't anything in future SF games to indicate and the thing gets more convuluted there, as opposed to the Doll Saga where Cammy's, Juli's, and Vega's endings mesh and mix really well with each other. So I'm wondering. What do you all think about this? Gameplay wise Ken fights Sakura, then fights Bison. In his ending, he beats Bison with his shoryuken, then says "Wait for me, Ryu!" Sakura fights a brainwashed Ryu, then fights Bison. In her ending, she fights Bison to protect Ryu from him, but Ryu gets brainwashed anyway. Ryu overcomes the brainwashing and whallops Bison with a powerful shin shoryuken. Sagat fights a brainwashed Ryu, then fights Bison. In his ending, Sagat watches as Ryu overcomes his brainwashing then takes out Bison. (On a random note, Sagat's mid-boss battle with Dan earlier in Sagat's storyline has Dan trying to get revenge on Sagat and after defeating Dan, Sagat sees the rage in Dan's eyes. This seems to be the actual recreation of what happened for Sagat's thoughts when he fought Dan during SFA2... this as well as Bison's ending in SFA2 shows to me that the Ryu Saga part of SFA3 occured so close to the beginning of SFA3 that it almost blends in with SFA2. Of course, officially, Sagat saw the rage in Dan's eyes then decided to give Dan the match...) Okay, so far, so good. Sagat fights brainwashed Ryu while Sakura (and assumedly Ken, whom met Sakura during his mid boss battle) fight Bison to protect Ryu from him. Ken's ending can be discarded because his ending is pointless simplicity where he basically says "Yay, I killed Bison. Now I must continue to search for Ryu!" Ken's real SFA3 ending is within Ryu's ending. After Sagat has fought Ryu and Bison finally wins and smacks Sakura aside like in her ending, Ryu overcomes his brainwashing and knocks away Bison, who makes a hasty retreat. But now it gets annoying. In the game, Ryu fights a brainwashed KEN, then fights Bison. In his ending, Ken's there and Ryu thanks KEN for some wierd reason (There is no hard indicator on who's talking, but it's not too hard to tell because Ken and Ryu have significantly different methods of speaking. "I thank you, my friend" is more Ryu's style of speech than Ken's "Put it there, old pal!" kind of speech). Why does Ryu thank Ken even though Ken was the brainwashed one? Ken didn't save Ryu from Bison in Ryu's ending, really (unless you include the fact that he was one of many people in Ryu's flashbacks as Ryu got possessed). Ryu saved himself. So the question is, did Ryu ever fight a brainwashed Ken (Then knocked Ken out of the brainwashing so he could help Sakura fight Bison)? Or should that just be discarded and it's meant to be assumed that Ryu was the brainwashed one which is why he was thanking Ken instead of the other way around? Heck, should I even bother caring? Posted by Siegfried on 10:23:2001 09:41 PM: Tiamat: Yay, nice FAQ. I'll read it some day when I have more than 30 minutes ^_^. One note though; you say FFR should be official just because it's in All About Capcom. Well, so is SF: the Movie ^_^. Will you have complete bio information for each character a la Lantis' storyline FAQs? Do you need somewhere to host that FAQ once it's done? I'd like to have a HTMLized version on FM, possibly linked to each character (there's too much info to have on each separate archive entry). Saiki: I can't download those pictures for some reason. As for bios: motto, motto! ^_^ Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:23:2001 09:52 PM: Does Capcom of Japan say anywhere in All About Capcom whether it's official or not? Damn, I wish I could read Japanese. The tone of the translation of Poison's bio back in that "Gay" thread seemed to indicate that Capcom of Japan at least considered it somewhat, but nothing hard certain... I don't think it really matters too much since as of yet, FFR doesn't glaringly contradict or even really toy much with the canon at all (as opposed to say, Street Fighter the Movie:P Well, okay, I guess Zombie Belgar might be a silly exception but he doesn't seem to be involved with many storylines in that game). I guess until I get confirmation on whether or not it's canon, I'll leave the FFR info in there but always tagged with disclaimers that it might not be true. Yea, I'm thinking I'll put up the bios if that's okay with Saiki when he posts them^^ I always thought that Lantis's bios were one and the same with the official, but I guess they might be different if Capcom of USA really went and did something as stupid as change official bios... Oo Do you want to use it when it's done? Of course you can go ahead^^ It's partially yours, anyway, I think. As of currently, I have it saved as a .html file because it's easier for me to work with, myself, that way. http://communities.msn.com/MycahLeo...snk.msnw?Page=1 Here, try this? They aren't full body though, sadly. Ah, art is fuuuun. On a really really really completely random note, I'm kinda amazed at how... big they made Juli in her Card Fighters Clash 2 card, though... Wonder if those artists doing that game realize that Juli's supposed to be only 16... Posted by FistsofFury on 10:23:2001 10:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki And if anyone cares, I got the portraits from CvS2. I've posted them on my site. Here's the links. http://www.geocities.com/saiki_selm/Capcom_art_CvS2.zip http://www.geocities.com/saiki_selm/SNK_art_CvS2.zip The Capcom one is about 2 megs and the SNk one is about 1.7 megs. Not all of them are showing the full body but I think it's better than anything one the net right now. I don't think it works Posted by Golden Dragon on 10:24:2001 02:29 AM: Tiamat Nice FAQ. It's looking really good, so far. For you information, I believe Final Fight Revenge was made by Capcom of America & it's not official. It has no place in the SF/FF timline so don't worry 'bout it. All that stuff 'bout Cody being framed isn't official/true. The real reason he ended up in jail is explained in his SFA3 plot. Oh yeah, here's the complete SF/FF timeline you asked for: Slam masters/Muscle Bomber (Haggar was a wrestler) Ring of Destruction (Haggar still a wrestler) Street Fighter/Final Fight (1987: Haggar is now the Mayor) Final Fight 2/Street Fighter Alpha 1&2 (1988: Guy wasn't in FF2 because he was chasing down Bison) Rival Schools (possibly) Street Fighter Alpha 3 (1990) Final Fight 3 Street Fighter 2 series (1993) Street Fighter 3 series (1998) Is this what you were talking 'bout when you asked for someone to post the SF timeline??? Anyways, notice that Final Fight 3's in between SFA3 & SF2 'cuz that's when it most likely took place (According to Saiki). Plus I added the exact years to make it a little more accurate. Feel free to copy/paste it if u want. Peace out. Posted by Clay on 10:24:2001 04:15 AM: Saiki: Thanks for the extra Gen information (never knew about the Genhanten). It sounds like the whole battle between Gouki and Gen is a mix of Gouki’s Z2 ending coupled with their Z3 intro: -Gouki’s Z2 scenario: Gouki and Gen cross paths and challenge each other. -Gouki and Gen’s Z3 intro: Gen survives the Shungokusatsu and counters with the Zan-ei, which Gouki deflects. -Gouki’s Z2 ending: Gouki leaves Gen without finishing the battle. -Gouki’s Z3 ending: Gouki and Gen reunite to finish what they started. I think that Capcom should have used Gouki’s Z3 ending to show us that Gen does die, instead of just showing us that they resume their fight. I would have liked to see some of the fight scenes between the two in Gouki’s ending. Also, they wouldn’t have had to waste Gouki’s ending by showing him kill Vega. We already know that this won’t happen until SSF2T. By the way, I cannot get the link for the artwork to work either. Azrael, how did you get it? Posted by Azrael-sama on 10:24:2001 04:26 AM: I must've got it before Geocities shut the site down. I only managed to get the Capcom art though. Seeing how much I appreciate having it, I uploaded it to my webspace, and it should work. Try this - http://www.dbzoa.net/Az/Capcom_CVS2_art.zip Thanks again Saiki for providing these, I really apprecate it. -Az Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:24:2001 04:36 AM: Yea^^ For the FAQ, I was going along with Gen's SFA2 ending followed by Gen's SFA3 ending then Akuma's SFA3 ending (remove M. Bison from the picture, of course). Though I changed it a little now to reflect the information Saiki gave. It doesn't change the overall picture much at all, though. Wow, seeing Akuma kill Gen would have been mean but... yea, they probably should have. Since SFA3 was meant to be the final Alpha game, they might as well have shown everything closing up like that. Wonder whatever happened to Adon, though. Golden Dragon, yea, that's it^^ I had the timeline, but I didn't have the years, so I needed the years. Thanks^^ Final Fight Revenge was indeed made by Capcom of America, but it got ported to Japan and as far as I know, Capcom of Japan hasn't officially denied that it isn't canon, unlike the Street Fighter Movie and Street Fighter EX, I believe. I could be wrong, though I don't speak Japanese. Right now, I figure I'll just leave the info there with big glaring disclaimers for any info taken from FFR to be taken as canon at the person's own risk, until I can gather confirmation that CoJ officially stated it doesn't follow the canon. Posted by Clay on 10:24:2001 05:35 AM: Thanks Azrael! That did the trick! Also, thanks to Saiki for providing the artwork. I haven’t seen anything else that compares to your collection. Topnotch stuff! quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Yea^^ For the FAQ, I was going along with Gen's SFA2 ending followed by Gen's SFA3 ending then Akuma's SFA3 ending (remove M. Bison from the picture, of course). Though I changed it a little now to reflect the information Saiki gave. It doesn't change the overall picture much at all, though. Wow, seeing Akuma kill Gen would have been mean but... yea, they probably should have. Since SFA3 was meant to be the final Alpha game, they might as well have shown everything closing up like that. Wonder whatever happened to Adon, though. Ummmm… you do realize that Gen kills Gouki in his endings, don’t you? Last I checked; Gouki was still alive and kicking. Anyway, it would be sort of brutal to show Gouki kill Gen, but after all it is what Gen wants. I don’t actually need to see the dirty deed myself, but I would have liked to have seen some of the fight (as well as a clear picture of who won). Without showing what really happens in greater detail, Capcom leaves too much room for the kind of speculation that has constantly plagued the SF storyline. It would be a lot easier if people could get this kind of info from the game directly. Adon Since none of the Alpha/Zero games show Adon ever fight Gouki, I’m going to guess that he is still in the land of the living. As far as I know, Adon still reigns as the current Muay Thai God. I’m sure that if he hasn’t come across Gouki yet, that he still desires to prove his superiority (a rather foolish example of his vanity). Anyway, I hope that Adon makes yet another return to SF because, well, I think he’s kind of cool (that and he is pretty fun to fight with). I would love to see some resolution with his story arc. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:24:2001 05:40 AM: ACK! Dammit! I meant to say Akuma's SFA2 ending, not Gen's! That's what it said in the FAQ before I changed it. Arrrgh. All this repeat of endings is starting to get annoying to me... Mweh. I need sleep. Posted by Sho 2 on 10:24:2001 02:14 PM: Can someone give me some more info on Shoma and/or Rival Schools in general? I think about joining Dark Fighter RPG Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:24:2001 02:39 PM: I'm not sure how joinable the DF RPG is now that it's really... erm... old. The rival schools section of the RPG is especially deviated from the canon by now. I mean... reeeaaaaally deviated from the canon. Ludicrously so. If you wanted to join an online writing RPG by now, I'd suggest something newer where you don't have to catch up on an insane backlog of chapters or community (The DF RPG is almost 2 years old now) just to figure out what's canon in the RPG and what isn't, and where you have more freedom to move around there. It's all your choice and all depends on your tastes, though. Does this belong in the fanfiction thread back there? There's info on Shoma? Besides small miscellaneous details, I thought he was just a brat with a big bat that liked beating people up... oh, and was friends with Natsu. Posted by FistsofFury on 10:24:2001 03:54 PM: 0_o This thread is long Anyways, I'd like to think that eventually Adon found Akuma, and naturally Akuma beat the living daylights out of him. And Adon returned to his normality as the Muay Thai champ. Posted by Clay on 10:24:2001 06:55 PM: Tiamat: I figured that is was just a mix-up of sorts. Nice update on the FAQ, you really added a lot on to it. I’ll post up some comments/compliments after I read through it again (later tonight). FoF: I’m glad that this thread has stayed alive so long. It’s been very informative so far. Anyway, none of the Zero/Alpha games show Adon actually fight Gouki, he’s always just looking for him. It is possible that they do meet after Z3 or during other parts of the storyline (during SF2 or 3?). However, unless Gouki saw some potential in Adon, I’m not sure that Adon would make it out alive. Even if Adon made it out with his life, I don’t think that things would return to normal. Undoubtedly, he would try and find a way to become stronger than Gouki (he has shown interest in trying to learn the Shun-goku Satsu). Most likely, this path would also lead to his demise. -Clay Posted by Sho 2 on 10:25:2001 01:27 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar I'm not sure how joinable the DF RPG is now that it's really... erm... old. The rival schools section of the RPG is especially deviated from the canon by now. I mean... reeeaaaaally deviated from the canon. Ludicrously so. If you wanted to join an online writing RPG by now, I'd suggest something newer where you don't have to catch up on an insane backlog of chapters or community (The DF RPG is almost 2 years old now) just to figure out what's canon in the RPG and what isn't, and where you have more freedom to move around there. It's all your choice and all depends on your tastes, though. Does this belong in the fanfiction thread back there? There's info on Shoma? Besides small miscellaneous details, I thought he was just a brat with a big bat that liked beating people up... oh, and was friends with Natsu. And what website would you suggest? I have never really written again and so I was wondering should I start with solo fanfics or group ones. I did kind of want to write up on Eagle but they didn't have him, so I wasn't sure. I await your answer. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:25:2001 01:34 AM: Eagle's playable in the DF RPG. They just keep forgetting to add him to the characters list. Well, I recomend some experience with solo writing first, but I dunno exactly how much experience is needed... most people who joined in the first place already had lots of experience. If you haven't ever written in a long while, I recomend testing things out with a solo fanfic first because going back and scrapping stuff where you made mistakes in an online group project is a real pain to do^^ Once in an online RPG, I began to realize that I fucked up my storyline so much in the past that I couldn't write any further, which was just really really ick What other webpages? I think I found some on Google but that was a while back.... Posted by Sho 2 on 10:25:2001 01:46 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Eagle's playable in the DF RPG. They just keep forgetting to add him to the characters list. Well, I recomend some experience with solo writing first, but I dunno exactly how much experience is needed... most people who joined in the first place already had lots of experience. If you haven't ever written in a long while, I recomend testing things out with a solo fanfic first because going back and scrapping stuff where you made mistakes in an online group project is a real pain to do^^ Once in an online RPG, I began to realize that I fucked up my storyline so much in the past that I couldn't write any further, which was just really really ick What other webpages? I think I found some on Google but that was a while back.... Hey, thanks for the suggestion. Now, more in-depth on the solo fanfic idea: Do you feel that it is easier to focus on one character with mostly likely a stricter storyline or one that focuses on a group of characters with probably more freedom? Also, do you feel that it is better to take a game with little or no canon (like EX) and use it or focus on actual canon's plotholes? I know this probably going to more of an opinion and I hope I'm not bugging you too much. I just try and get other opinions because I change my mind way too much. Thanks and sorry about this. Posted by Saiki on 10:25:2001 03:30 AM: Man, I can't believe geocities deleted that quickly. I kinda hoped it would stay up for a week at least. I'll upload it to another place after I finish writing all the character bio's. I'll list the bio's for all Street Fighter's, Rival Schooler's, Muscle Bomber's and Final Fighter's. Adon Height: 182cm Weight: 73kg BWH sizes: B112, W80, H85 Blood type: B Birthplace: Thailand Special Skill: Waiku (a dance in Muei Thai) Likes: Muei Thai Dislikes: Sagat, people who can't backup what they say Fighting Style: Muei Thai Akira Kazama Birthday: March 3 Height: 160cm Weight: 45kg BWH sizes: B81, W62, H83 Blood type: AB Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Practicing Taichi Likes: Motorbikes, Daigo, Gan, Edge Dislikes: talking Fighting Style: Chinshi Taikyokuken(Taichi) ALEKSEY ZALAZOF/ BIFF SLAMKOVICH Age: 26 Height: 192cm Weight: 120kg Birthplace: Russia BALROG Birthday: 1967 July 27 Height: 186cm Weight: 72kg BWH sizes: B121, W73, H83 Blood type: O Birthplace: Spain Special Skill: Climbing walls, being vain Likes: Beautiful things, himself Dislikes: ugly things, getting the blood of his opponent on himself Fighting Style: Arranged Ninjitsu BATSU ICHIMONJI Birthday: January 1 Height: 171cm Weight: 64kg BWH sizes: B95, W72, H80 Blood type: O Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Eating fast Likes: straightforward things, ninja, his mother Dislikes: Dogs, unstraight forward things, unfair things Fighting Style: ? BIRDIE Height: 216cm Weight: 111kg BWH sizes: B156, W102, H106 Blood type: O Birthplace: England Special Skill: Eating, Criminal activities Likes: Beer, Beef Jerky, Money making talk Dislikes: Kids, Cops Fighting Style: Wrestling with street fighting BLACK WIDOW Height: 205cm Weight: 95kg Birthplace: Germany Fighting Style: Mysterious Wrestling BLANKA Birthday: 1966 February 12 Height: 192cm Weight: 98kg BWH sizes: B198, W120, H172 Blood type: B Birthplace: Brazil Special Skill: Hunting, Electricity Likes: Tropical fruits, Pirarucu, his mom Dislikes: Army ants Fighting Style: self-taught savage fighting BOMAN DELGADO Birthday: July 30 Height: 200cm Weight: 101kg BWH sizes: B138, W90, H95 Blood type: A Birthplace: America Special Skill: Cooking Likes: Praying Dislikes: Violence Fighting Style: Boxing CAMMY Birthday: 1974 January 6 Height: 164cm Weight: 46kg BWH sizes: B86, W57, H88 Blood type: B Birthplace: ? Special Skill: ? Likes: Collecting data from fights (Shadowloo) Cats (Delta Red) Dislikes: Sympathy (Shadowloo) Anything when she's pissed off (Delta Red) Fighting Style: Shadowloo elite special force techniques CARLOS MIYAMOTO Height: 185cm Weight: 60kg CHUNLI Birthday: 1968 March 1 Height: 169cm Weight: Unknown BWH sizes: B84, W59, H89 Blood type: A Birthplace: China Special Skill: Shooting (ranked 6th in an international contest) Likes: Fruits, European treats Dislikes: Crime, people who aren't clear of themselves, Vega Fighting Style: Taichi CODY Height: 185cm Weight: 80kg BWH sizes: B139, W86, H97 Blood type: O Birthplace: America Special Skill: Using a knife Likes: Starting fights, Milk Dislikes: Haggars lectures Fighting Style: Street Fighting DAIGO KAZAMA Birthday: September 15 Height: 190cm Weight: 89kg BWH sizes: B100, W88, H95 Blood type: AB Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Telling people about what makes a man Likes: Enka, straight things, heroic movies Dislikes: Caterpillers, bent things Fighting Style: Chinshi Taikyokuken(Taichi) DAMND Height: 218cm Weight: 201kg Birthplace: America Special Skill: Jump kick Likes: Strawberry Sunday DAN HIBIKI Height: 177cm Weight: 74kg BWH sizes: B113, W83, H88 Blood type: O Birthplace: Hong Kong Special Skill: Tile breaking, Karaoke Likes: Taunting Dislikes: Seaweed, vain people, Evil Fighting Style: Saikyoryu martial arts(based on the teaching of Gouken) DEAN Height: 195cm Weight: 97kg DEE JAY Birthday: 1965 October 31 Height: 184cm Weight: 92kg BWH sizes: B130, W89, H94 Blood type: AB Birthplace: Jamaica Special Skill: Dancing, Singing Likes: Shouting, Singing, Dancing Dislikes: Maturity Fighting Style: Kick-Boxing DHALSIM Birthday: 1952 November 22 Height: 176cm Weight: 48kg BWH sizes: B107, W46, H65 Blood type: O Birthplace: India Special Skill: Studying Yoga, emptying one self Likes: Curry, Meditation Dislikes: Sweet Food, Meat Fighting Style: Yoga EDGE (EIJI YAMADA) Birthday: April 1 Height: 173cm Weight: 60kg BWH sizes: B88, W59, H72 Blood type: AB Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Knife throwing, weapon-based attacks, bitching Likes: Army knives Dislikes: Hard work Fighting Style: ? EDI E Height: 204cm Weight: 145kg Birthplace: America Special Skills: Shooting Likes: Rare steaks Fighting Style: Police training EDMUND HONDA Birthday: 1960 November 3 Height: 185cm Weight: 137kg BWH sizes: B212, W180, H210 Blood type: A Birthplace: Japan Likes: Bathing, Chanko Nabe (a kind of soup that sumo wrestlers eat) Dislikes: Indecision Fighting Style: Sumo Wrestling EL GADO Birthplace: Arabia Fighting Style: Souo-katsuken (Double Scorpian Tail techiniques) EL STINGER Age: 27 Height: 168cm Weight: 74kg Birthplace: Mexico Fighting Style: Lucha Libre FEILONG Birthday: 1969 April 23 Height: 172cm Weight: 60kg BWH sizes: B108, W76, H80 Blood type: O Birthplace: Hong Kong Special Skill: Using Knunchucks Likes: Kungfu, self-assertion Dislikes: Helpless, Indifference, Non-excitement Fighting Style: Hitenryu kungfu GAN ISURUGI Birthday: January 3 Height: 198cm Weight: 115kg BWH sizes: B170, W159, H165 Blood type: O Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Sumo, eating a lot, eating fast Likes: Nigiri meshi Dislikes: school work Fighting Style: Sumo GEN Height: 166cm Weight: 61kg BWH sizes: B106, W75, H80 Blood type: O Birthplace: China Special Skill: Making Chinese medicine Likes: Meat buns, Reading Chinese poems Dislikes: Lots of people Fighting Style: Ansatsuken GOUKI Height: 178cm Weight: 80kg BWH sizes: B118, W84, H86 Blood type: Unknown Birthplace: Unknown Special Skill: Unknown Likes: Unknown Dislikes: Unknown Fighting Style: Ansatsuken GUILE Birthday: 1960 December 23 Height: 182cm Weight: 86kg BWH sizes: B125, W83, H89 Blood type: O Birthplace: America Special Skill: ? Likes: American Coffee Dislikes: Natto (fermented Soy Beans) Fighting Style: Special Force Techniques GUY Height: 179cm Weight: 72kg BWH sizes: B198, W77, H82 Blood type: O Birthplace: America Special Skill: Sprinting (100m: 10.2sec), making Bonsai Likes: Sneakers, salmon flavoured japanese soup Dislikes: Horizontol writing Fighting Style: Bushinryu Ninpo HAYATO NEKKETSU Birthday: August 15 Height: 191cm Weight: 80kg BWH sizes: B111, W89, H92 Blood type: O Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Slapping things with his shinai(bamboo stick), putting in fighting spirit Likes: Bright red jackets, fighting spirit, sexy and nice women Dislikes: disregarding manners Fighting Style: ? HIDEO SHIMAZU Birthday: May 5 Height: 165cm Weight: 68kg BWH sizes: B93, W80, H85 Blood type: A Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Karate, cooking, laundry, cleaning Likes: Japanese literature, japanese food, his students Dislikes: Disputes, cowardly things Fighting Style: Shimazuryu Karate HINATA WAKABA Birthday: April 12 Height: 155cm Weight: 41kg BWH sizes: B78, W56, H78 Blood type: O Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Anything to do with moving her body, karaoke Likes: Cakes, cheese cakes, rare things, martial arts Dislikes: Dirty things, bugs(mainly cockroaches and moths) Fighting Style: Karate HUGO Birthday: 1964 Height: 240cm Weight: 200kg Birthplace: Germany HYO IMAWANO Birthday: April 4 Height: 183cm Weight: 67kg BWH sizes: B95, W76, H80 Blood type: B Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Brainwashing Likes: Political power, Japanese swords Dislikes: Love, friendship, willpower Fighting Style: Imawanoryu kenjutsu JULI Height: 164cm Weight: 49kg BWH sizes: B92, W59, H84 Blood type: B Birthplace: Germany Special Skill: Unknown Likes: Unknown Dislikes: Unknown Fighting Style: Shadowloo elite special force techniques JUNI Height: 162cm Weight: 46kg BWH sizes: B84, W56, H83 Blood type: AB Birthplace: Germany Special Skill: Unknown Likes: Unknown Dislikes: Unknown Fighting Style: Shadowloo elite special force techniques KARIN KANZUKI Height: 162cm Weight: 48kg BWH sizes: B83, W57, H85 Blood type: B Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Various Kanzukiryu Ougi's Likes: Total victory Dislikes: Minds of a commoner Fighting Style: Kanzukiryu kakutoujutsu KEN MASTERS Birthday: 1965 February 14 Height: 175cm Weight: 72kg BWH sizes: B110, W82, H86 Blood type: B Birthplace: America Special Skill: Cooking (Pasta's) Likes: Skateboarding, Pasta's Dislikes: Umeboshi, Soap Opera's Fighting Style: Ansatsuken KIMALA THE BOUNCER/ JUMBO "FLAP" JACK Age: 31 Height: 200cm Weight: 200kg Birthplace: Chicago, Illinoi, America Fighting Style: Power Wrestling KYOKO MINAZUKI Birthday: June 7 Height: 173cm Weight: Unknown BWH sizes: B87, W56, H89 Blood type: B Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Orthopedics, surgery Likes: Japanese sake(japanese wine), horse racing Dislikes: household duties Fighting Style: ? KYOSUKE KAGAMI (IMAWANO) Birthday: April 4 Height: 182cm Weight: 66kg BWH sizes: B95, W75, H79 Blood type: B Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Calligraphy, flower arrangement Likes: Chess, shougi(japanese chess), mirrors Dislikes: sweat, hard work Fighting Style: ? LUCIA Height: 170cm Weight: 52kg LUCKY COLT/ GUNLOCK Age: 25 Height: 192cm Weight: 125kg Birthplace: Miami, America Fighting Style: Wrestling MAKI Height: 164cm Weight: 51kg Birthplace: Japan Fighting Style: Bushinryu Ninpo MIKE BISON Birthday: 1969 September 4 Height: 198cm Weight: 102kg BWH sizes: B120, W86, H100 Blood type: A Birthplace: America Special Skill: Gambling Likes: Women, Beer Dislikes: Fish, Hard work, Math Fighting Style: Boxing MIKE HAGGAR Height: 202cm Weight: 140kg Birthplace: America Likes: Curry Rice, Hamburgers Dislikes: Crime Fighting Style: Wrestling "MISSING IQ" GOMES/ KING RASTA "MON" Age: 24 Height: 198cm Weight: 150kg Birthplace: Dominican Republic Fighting Style: Hardcore Wrestling MYSTERIOUS BUDO/ THE GREAT ONI Age: 23 Height: 182cm Weight: 100kg Birthplace: Japan Fighting Style: Heel Wrestling NAGARE NAMIKAWA Birthday: July 20 Height: 187cm Weight: 85kg BWH sizes: B108, W88, H95 Blood type: B Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Swimming, anything to do with water Likes: Swimming, oceans, rivers Dislikes: Caterpillars, bent things Fighting Style: ? NATSU AYUHARA Birthday: February 14 Height: 182cm Weight: Unknown BWH sizes: B92, W59, H83 Blood type: B Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Cooking, making small sweets Likes: cake, people that work hard Dislikes: people that pick on the weak, liars, small bugs Fighting Style: ? RAINBOW MIKA (MIKA NANAKAWA) Height: 168cm Weight: 62kg BWH sizes: B97, W72, H93 Blood type: O Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Eating alot Likes: Thinking about Zangief wrestling Dislikes: Younger people without manners Fighting Style: Wrestling RAIZO IMAWANO Birthday: October 3 Height: 188cm Weight: 124kg BWH sizes: B165, W163, H170 Blood type: O Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: taking over Japan Likes: Sirloin steak Dislikes: lying, crabs and lobsters Fighting Style: Imawanoryu bujutsu RAN HIBIKI Birthday: June 1 Height: 163cm Weight: 47kg BWH sizes: B80, W58, H80 Blood type: O Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: taking pictures for scoops, sneaking up on people Likes: Scoops, photographs Dislikes: Unfairness, unreasanoble things, talking about her own romance Fighting Style: ? RIP SABER Height: 199cm Weight: 135kg Birthplace: Calgary, Canada Fighting Style: Special Force training + Wrestling ROBERTO MIURA Birthday: November 16 Height: 177cm Weight: 73kg BWH sizes: B101, W82, H88 Blood type: A Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Shooting a gun quickly Likes: Anything to do with soccer, guns Dislikes: gloomy things Fighting Style: ? ROLENTO Height: 180cm Weight: 91kg BWH sizes: B122, W86, H90 Blood type: O Birthplace: America Special Skill: Making/Setting up traps, Ambushes Likes: Order, discipline, Dislikes: Weaklings, idleness, laziness Fighting Style: Special Force training ROSE Height: 178cm Weight: 54kg BWH sizes: B96, W57, H86 Blood type: Unknown Birthplace: Italy Special Skill: Reading Tarot cards Likes: Sherry wine, bathing Dislikes: UV rays, Waking up early Fighting Style: Soul Power ROY BROMWELL Birthday: May 2 Height: 181cm Weight: 85kg BWH sizes: B122, W82, H88 Blood type: B Birthplace: America Special Skill: Arm wrestling (Boman is his rival) Likes: fashion, high class brands Dislikes: Japan, Japanese, cowardly things Fighting Style: ? RYU Birthday: 1964 July 21 Height: 175cm Weight: 68kg BWH sizes: B110, W81, H85 Blood type: O Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Can sleep anywhere, Hitch hiking Likes: Youkan Dislikes: Spiders Fighting Style: Ansatsuken SAGAT Birthday: 1955 July 2 Height: 226cm Weight: 109kg BWH sizes: B140, W87, H95 Blood type: B Birthplace: Thailand Special Skill: Diving under water(able to stay for over 20min) Likes: Strong opponents Dislikes: People who do small things Fighting Style: Muei Thai SAKURA KASUGANO Height: 158cm Weight: 42kg BWH sizes: B80, W60, H84 Blood type: A Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Speaking english, cooking Likes: Gym class(track & field), white rice Dislikes: Math, playing videogames with her brother Fighting Style: Ansatsuken SEAN MATSUDA Height: 178cm Birthplace: Brazil SHEEP THE ROYAL/ ALEXANDER THE GRATER Age: 34 Height: 199cm Weight: 163kg Birthplace: Australia Figthing Style: Power Wrestling continued........ Posted by Saiki on 10:25:2001 03:32 AM: Part 2..... SHOMA SAWAMURA Birthday: October 10 Height: 162cm Weight: 57kg BWH sizes: B92, W78, H80 Blood type: O Birthplace: Japan Special Skill: Baseball Likes: Baseball, baseball games Dislikes: big, tall, strong people, basketball, volleyball Fighting Style: ? SODOM Height: 208cm Weight: 108kg BWH sizes: B148, W98, H103 Blood type: A Birthplace: America Special Skill: Water performances, driving big trucks Likes: Collecting japanese items Dislikes: Guy Fighting Style: Self taught martial arts THE ASTRO/ THE SCORPION Age: Unknown Height: 188cm Weight: 105kg Birthplace: Unknown Fighting Style: Heel Wrestling THE WRAITH Height: 219cm Weight: 160kg Birthplace: New Deli, India Fighting Style: Mysterious Wrestling THUNDER HAWK Birthday: 1959 July 21 Height: 230cm Weight: 162kg BWH sizes: B114, W98, H112 Blood type: O Birthplace: Mexico Likes: Hair accessories, animals Dislikes: Lies Fighting Style: Thunder Foot martial arts TIFFANY ROSE Birthday: December 23 Height: 164cm Weight: Unknown BWH sizes: B93, W56, H86 Blood type: B Birthplace: America Special Skill: Expressing love Likes: Roy, Dancing, her family, ice cream Dislikes: Natto (fermented soybeans) Fighting Style: ? TITAN THE GREAT Age: 26 Height: 236cm Weight: 196kg Birthplace: England Fighting Style: Giant Wrestling VEGA Birthday: Unknown April 17 Height: 182cm Weight: 96kg BWH sizes: B133, W90, H92 Blood type: A Birthplace: Unknown Special Skill: Mind control Likes: World domination Dislikes: Useless soldiers Fighting Style: Psycho Power VICTOR ORTEGA Height: 210cm Weight: 156kg Birthplace: Unknown Fighting Style: Wrestling ZANGIEF Birthday: 1956 June 1 Height: 214cm Weight: 121kg BWH sizes: B172, W133, H154 Blood type: A Birthplace: Russia Special Skill: Drinking Vodka, enduring the cold Likes: Wrestling, Kosacs dance Dislikes: projectiles, young beautiful women Fighting Style: Wrestling That's all that I have. I don't have the bio's for the new Project Justice characters or the bio's for the SFIII characters. The only SFIII chars that have a slight bio is Hugo and Sean. Posted by Sho 2 on 10:25:2001 05:20 AM: Oh gee, thank every so much. Um.. I mean thanks a bunch. I was kind of wondering do you have any idea on where I can find info on the 1st SF characters because I need to know who the hell Joe is. Also, even though there is not much data on EX SF, are any little tidbits that you know of like the name of Vulcan Rosso's girlfriend, Skullomania's real name, Area's Father's name, etc. If you don't it would be okay. Oh, and about Joe, what did he exactly look like and what attacks did have. Thanks Saiki Posted by soujiroten on 10:25:2001 07:24 AM: Whoa! quote: ZANGIEF Birthday: 1956 June 1 Height: 214cm Weight: 121kg BWH sizes: B172, W133, H154 Blood type: A Birthplace: Russia Special Skill: Drinking Vodka, enduring the cold Likes: Wrestling, Kosacs dance Dislikes: projectiles, young beautiful women Fighting Style: Wrestling Dislikes young beautiful women? Gief is a weird one... he either likes ugly women or maybe he *is* gay... Wonder if he's been hanging out with Eagle... --SJ Posted by Clay on 10:25:2001 07:44 AM: Nice bios Saiki. Quite the list you have there. Too bad they never even made any bios for the SF3 cast. As always, you have great information. SJ: You noticed that as well. I know that I was quite surpised when I first saw it too. About Joe, I can't remember any of his moves, but he isn't really that great of a fighter. He is generally considered to be one of the weaker characters in SF1. He had short blonde hair and wore red pants (I think). I can't really think of anything spectacular about his fighting style. One of the two American fighters in the game (Mike Bison is the other; Ken doesn't really count because he wasn't actually in the tournament). -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:25:2001 12:43 PM: Ken not being in the tournament is shown by Ryu never fighting him in the one player game, I think. COurse, everyone else probably already realized this by now. ^^ Joe's your... average Joe. :P Hey Saiki, thanks^^ I assume the El Gado and Edi. E bios and such came from Final Fight Revenge (Or the Final Fight Revenge section of All About Capcom)? Posted by Golden Hell on 10:25:2001 01:09 PM: Awesome info there, Saiki. Thanks! Also thanks for posting those CvS2 pics (and thanks to Azrael-sama for re-posting them ), those are the best i've seen. All the other pics I come across on the net only show the character's heads. Just a little request, I know it doesn't really have anything to do with SF but since we're talking about pics, does anybody have full-body pictures of KoF2001 artwork. Madman's Cafe had them but only for about half of the characters, I'd like to get the other half. Thanks in advance for any help. Going back to SF and that info list, I find official bios to be so interesting. It sucks that we don't get anything like that here in the States. I know it's been stated numerous times but background info like that just makes me more interested in the characters and the games themselves. Since most of my friends don't play fighters, I have to resort to single player; and its tidbits and stories about the characters that keeps me coming back. Posted by Siegfried on 10:25:2001 01:17 PM: Cool! Guess I have some updating to do on FM ^_^. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:25:2001 03:15 PM: Golden Hell - It's good to know that I'm not the only one here where the characters and storyline of a fighter 'keeps me coming back' Everyone at various other SRK threads keep telling me that I'm in the wrong genre in regards to storyline. I mean, sure, they're partially correct (course, then again, fighting games aren't personal my favorite genre anyways. I just like them a lot. Course, then again, I like video games in general so much that I don't think I have any genre I can call my favorite) but it's not as bad as they make it out to be... Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:26:2001 01:12 AM: Oh yea, does Charlie have an official bio? ^^ I couldn't find one for either Nash or Charlie. Posted by Agent Guile on 10:26:2001 03:19 AM: Is it OFFICIAL that Nash is Guile's mentor Posted by Saiki on 10:26:2001 06:17 AM: Tiamat I can't believe I forgot to put Nash in the list. Especially since he's one of my favorite chars....... NASH Height: 186cm Weight: 84kg BWH sizes: B123, W81, H87 Blood type: AB Birthplace: America Special Skill: Repairing Harriers, phsycology Likes: Justice, Scotch Dislikes: Injustice Fighting Style: Special Force Training And the bio/stats for the Final Fight characters actually came from Final Fight 1. Final Fight revenge didn't make any new bio's at all. Sho2 I really haven't looked into SFEX at all because it isn't in the actual storyline. And I'm pretty sure that not much info was released anyways. I'll check up on it though...... Oh, and Joe from SF1 was Cody's pre-design. Both Cody and Joe have the exact same lunge kick and have the same kind of punches. Golden Hell Same here. One of the reasons why I like looking up and reasearching SF story is it brings me back to the game alot more. All my friends here have turned into EQ players and I'm like the only one that still plays fighting games. Agent Guile I wouldn't really call it mentor. Nash was the one that invented the Sonic Boom and Somersault Kick and he did teach those to Guile and other army members. But Nash was the only one that could use them at the time. Story-wise, Guile shouldn't have had the Sonic Boom and Somersault Kick when Nash was alive. One of the reasons why Guile was SO weak in Zero3. Capcom wanted to make it clear that Guile was weak while Nash was alive but didn't want to alter is gameplay. Posted by Clay on 10:26:2001 06:44 AM: Thanks for adding Nash. I think that he is one of the more likeable/honorable characters in the game. I don't think that he gets enough credit or popularity. I do prefer him to Guile (nothing against Guile, Nash is just more my style). That Joe-Cody connection is really interesting, never heard of it before. Golden Hell: I totally feel your pain about never getting to see the bios before. It isn't like it would take Cap USA that much work to put them together for us. Why must Cap USA continually screw us over? It makes each character a little more likeable when you know something about them. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:26:2001 02:33 PM: Thanks, Saiki ^^ Whoa!!! They made Guile suck on PURPOSE? Wow, throwing away balance for the sake of the storyline... who woulda thought? Though that DOES explain a lot. I always wondered why Guile sucked so much in SFA3, to the point where I thought it was a bug that his moves did so little damage compared to Charlie's... Wow, Joe and Cody? Now that you mention it, their fighting stance DOES look really similar (never saw Joe in action, but you're probably right...) Hmm... when you say pre-Cody, you mean Cody was supposed to be Joe when Final Fight came out? Guess Capcom made him an all new character because Joe... well, Joe is boring. :P Though since Joe is just your average street fighter, it might just be because both Cody and Joe probably learned their fighting from... well, the street. If Joe really is pre-Cody, I suppose that means we'll never see Joe again, sooorta similar to how we'll never see Mike again because Mike is really Mike Bison, huh? (though sorta different, too). I wonder if the storyline makers of Street Fighter consider Joe to be different from Cody now or after Cody came along, just decided to forget about Joe because Joe was supposed to be Cody. Either way, though, doubt we'll ever see Joe again :P There were times when I wondered if Eagle might actually have been sooooorta pre-Cammy, myself, until I found out that his official storyline was that he was a bouncer and not an English Agent. Cammy and Eagle have the similar castle stages and the scar and all, and I heard from those storyline-twisting jerks at gamespot that Eagle was a member of Ml6, but now that I know that isn't true, that throws the parallel out the window. Posted by Ultima on 10:27:2001 07:08 AM: From TiamatRoar: > Whoa!!! They made Guile suck on PURPOSE? Wow, throwing away balance for the sake of the storyline... who woulda thought? Though that DOES explain a lot. I always wondered why Guile sucked so much in SFA3, to the point where I thought it was a bug that his moves did so little damage compared to Charlie's... I think that's a tad too convenient. I think they just didn't want Guile to dominate like he's done in the past, so in usual Capcom fashion they went overboard and toned him down to much. It's not the lack of damage that makes Guile suck compared to Charlie in SFA3, it's the fact that Guile is so much slower and has much worse priority in his moves. Note that Guile isn't that great in MvC2 either, though arguably better than Charlie. > Hmm... when you say pre-Cody, you mean Cody was supposed to be Joe when Final Fight came out? Guess Capcom made him an all new character because Joe... well, Joe is boring. Capcom reuses moves from characters all the time. Just like Geki is Vega's prototype, and Haggar is Zangief's prototype. The prototype characters didn't get succeeded because they sucked necessarily (though that would apply to Joe's case), but more because Capcom wanted new characters. > I wonder if the storyline makers of Street Fighter consider Joe to be different from Cody now or after Cody came along, just decided to forget about Joe because Joe was supposed to be Cody. Either way, though, doubt we'll ever see Joe again :P Cody and Joe are definitely not the same character. I think Guy was technically the "replacement" for Ryu (since they're very similar fundamentally), but both characters have been updated since. Joe got dumped because there's nothing to him. I'm surprised they even brought Cody back for SFA3, actually, and note that they altered him pretty drastically from his original form. If Joe were to come back, he too would likely get a massive make over. But yeah, I don't think we'll be seeing Joe ever again. > There were times when I wondered if Eagle might actually have been sooooorta pre-Cammy, myself, until I found out that his official storyline was that he was a bouncer and not an English Agent. Storyline has nothing to do with what character is whose prototype. It's all about what moves they've got. Lee would be a prototype for SF3 Yun/Yang. I don't think Eagle really was a prototype for anyone (which is part of the reason why I wanted to see him get updated for so long - no other SF character played like him, though now Capcom has kinda made Eagle into "Dudley with sticks"). Posted by Agent Guile on 10:27:2001 07:39 AM: In what official bio would you read that Nash taught Guile his moves? Just asking. Posted by Sho 2 on 10:27:2001 05:14 PM: EX is one game that is very hard to find info for other than in your gamebook/gameguide. It get really annoying because I like most of the characters from EX (Sharon, Skullmania, Vulcan Rosso, Area) because they all had an original fighting style. The only thing I didn't like about EX were the way it was drawn and those guard cancels. Otherwise, I loved that game and don't see why Capcom (canon or not) feels compelled to make less 2D games. Anyway, I started to ramble again. This reason I looking for stuff on EX because I planned to make a fanfic for one character right now, I'm a newbie at writing. I planned to do a mini-crossover but starting to doubt myself. I know that I want to a least right to SFEX. One for Vulcano Rosso and one for Skullomania. I'm trying be as accurate as possible but I can't find either age, height, weight, etc. I also can't find either name because I KNOW Skullo has a name and I kind of certain that Vulcan Rosso is not his real name either because the guide said he works for organization. Besides, it would be wierd name any way because it means Volcano Red but I wouldn't put Capcom to not give a name or make this his real name. Besides, I think I'll starting writing until I find his Girlfriend's name and Skullomania's real name. I have a few questions now: 1. How would Vulcano Rosso and Skullomania's name be pronounced in Japanese? I think is wierd that Skullo is Japanese but doesn't have a name that is easily pronouncable in Japanese (not that I can think of). 2. Is Eagle actually homosexual canon-wise? 3. What is Morrigan I know she is/was a sex demon but than how was she born into a clan? I have always had this idea the succubi can't have children or be male either? Thanks everyone making such a great thread!! Posted by Saiki on 10:27:2001 05:21 PM: Tiamat Like Ultima said, Joe and Cody aren't the same. They just used Joe as a base to make Cody. And Cammy was based off of Gally of Gunmu. Ultima I know what you mean when you say it's too convenient but that's what Capcom Japan said. Most likely they realized how bad they made Guile and they used that as an excuse. That's what I think. Oh, although Geki and Balrog both have claws, I really don't think Geki was the prototype for Balrog. Since Balrog at first was suppossed to be an English knight with a sword. Later he got changed into a claw-weilding madator. And their move list is completely different. Agent Guile Official SF2 Fan book. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:27:2001 05:48 PM: OH YEA! I remember that! A long time ago, I saw Vega's concept art and it was a completely different character with a sword. And I remember it looked like crap, unless my memory's off. Didn't he wear a big plate helmet? Oo Cammy being based off Gally is official? Though I imagine she was, judging by Stefan's description of Gally at Cammyfan. That getting up style is just too similar to be just a coincidence. I wonder if it's official that Juni and Juli and the doll concept in general were based off of/inspired by the Cammy History novel series, like Stefan thinks. It sure seems plausible (Anne DOES look a heck of a lot like Juni...) Usually Capcom seems to come up with a storyline reason to explain prototypes, I think. Lee being Yun and Yang's father and Gen being their teacher, for one thing. I imagine not always, though. That and Cody and Joe are both literal street fighters, anyway, so of course they'd have similar styles there. Ah, so Capcom of Japan officially stated that's why Guile sucks? LOL!! Yea, that's probably a cover-up for their big screw up. Now a silly question is, does T. Hawk also suck enough in SFA3 to warrant them making up a storyline reason for that? The male version of the succubus is an incubus. Dunno if they're considered the same species or not, though. I'm not sure how much info for EX characters is out there. I know that Capcom won't go out of their way to make info because EX wasn't made by Capcom and the EX series isn't considered part of the Street Fighter canon. Eagle of CvS2 (NOT SF1) is most likely a tribute to Freddy Mercury of Queen. His win quote, "The show must go on" is a heavy indicator of this. I don't believe he was in SF1, but when Capcom upgraded him for CvS2, they made him as such. Freddy Mercury is gay, thus Eagle is gay, too. Many of his quotes in the Japanese version of CvS show this, beyond the point where you can just say he's wierd. Course, whether this Eagle is to be considered canon or not because CvS2 isn't to be considered to be canon remains to be seen... Hmm... the Final Fight Bios aren't from Final Fight Revenge... wow, I didn't know that Capcom of Japan made bios for all of FF1's enemy characters, too Oo I was wondering if it was just boss characters but El Gado is not a boss character... whoa. How... completionist of them. Posted by FistsofFury on 10:27:2001 07:41 PM: Where can I find concept art from SF? Posted by Agent Guile on 10:28:2001 06:51 AM: quote: Agent Guile Official SF2 Fan book. Is this the same book that LastGodVT is referring to in his huge thread in the General Section months ago? Posted by Clay on 10:30:2001 08:13 PM: Agent Guile: LastGod was referring to the All About Capcom book, which covers fighting games made between 1987-2000. The official SF2 fan book is different, and I'm not sure how common it is. My guess is that it might be pretty hard to get a copy of it. I'm also always interested in seeing official artwork, so if anybody has any good info as to where I can see it, it would be much appreciated. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:30:2001 08:53 PM: Hmm... official Street Fighter one artwork? The DF RPG used to have it before it revamped it's character section. I'll go ask the webpage maintainer if she still has all those SF1 pics. The SF1 official artwork for each character was... decent. It looked a bit fuzzy but not too bad. Posted by Golden Dragon on 10:30:2001 09:13 PM: Yeah I thought the SF1 artwork was pretty decent as well. I thought the style of the art was similar to Alpha 1's art. Posted by Siegfried on 10:30:2001 10:56 PM: I still have the SF1 artwork, on a forgotten unlinked page of Fighter Mania. Have a look at: http://www.tekken.nu/fightermania/sf1/sf1.htm The pictures have the PC version sprites (term used loosely ^_^) pasted on top but if you really want I could dig up the originals. Posted by Clay on 10:31:2001 12:00 AM: Thanks a lot Siegfried! I think that the SF1 art was pretty good. It's cool to see them again. It's kind of funny to see some of the older pictures of the characters (Ryu with red hair and shoes). Anyway, I always like seeing as much SF art as possible, no matter which game it's from. Posted by TiamatRoar on 10:31:2001 12:24 AM: Cool, Siegfried! ^^ Wow, it's been a long time since I've seen that art. Looking at it again, a lot of it is a lot cooler than I remember. Birdie and Sagat seem especially well-done to me... Posted by FistsofFury on 10:31:2001 07:05 PM: WOOT! I've been looking a lont time for this artwork...thanks dude Posted by Berias on 11:01:2001 11:21 AM: Clay: thanks for shedding light on the whole SF situation. I can't believe Cap US gave us this hash, and that I've been believeing it for 5 or 6 years. A few questions. If Ryu and Gouki continue training, how can Ryu seriously be considered a contender against Gouki, who displays obscene power in 2i GA and 3rd strike? Is it right to consider the Kongou Kokuretsuzan and the Tenshou Kareki Jin new Ansatsu Ken techniques? Is the an english translation for all this information you're getting? thanks Ultima: for the record, Venom is 6'3 260 pounds. Juggernaut is listed as 6'10 by marvelcomics.com but this is wrong. Cain Marko may be 6'10 but Juggs is not. Posted by Clay on 11:01:2001 04:45 PM: No problem, I love this stuff. I think that Ryu should be able to obtain Gouki-like status down the road. There are really two paths towards this. First, Satsui no Hadou. Had Ryu followed the same path as Gouki, I would think that he would have a good chance at defeating Gouki. Gouki asks Ryu to use the Killing Intent because Ryu is one of the few people who have knowledge of it, and also have enough skill to use it proficiently (Shungoku Satsu is incredibly hard to pull off). I often say that "Evil" Ryu is a "what if" character in Z3, and that his whole storyline (in Z3) doesn't exist. This is true, however, his story can be used to accurately gauge how powerful he could become. Following that path, Ryu eventually kills Gouki. One of the biggest differences between the two is that Ryu is not using true Ansatsu-ken. This severely weakens him in a fight to the death. Gouki also seems to be more powerful than Ryu (in terms of Ki manipulation). However, if Ryu is influenced by Satsui no Hadou, his true potential seems to spiral out of control. This levels the playing field a considerable amount. Not only is Ryu now using True Ansatsu-ken, but he is now tapping into some of his previously untapped potential. Even though I would still say that Ryu would be at a disadvantage, I think that it is a fight that he could win (see SFZ3). The second option, would be the path that Ryu is currently on. He has forsaken the Killing Intent and seeks out his true power. Satsui no Hadou doesn't seem to affect him because his he doesn't desire to prove his superiority, he only wants to become as strong as possible. I assume that Ryu was overcome by Satsui no Hadou (back in SF1) because he wanted to win so badly (defeat Sagat, be the champ). Clearly, he does not think that way any longer. In 3s, Oro said that Ryu may be ready to challenge him in another fifteen years. This would represent a great leap in ability on its own, but I think that after that, Ryu may learn a trick or two from Oro. Even with constant improvement on Gouki's part, Ryu could catch up to him. His interaction with Oro would probably be instramental to a substantial boost in power. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I consider Oro to be incredibly powerful. I already stated my case for this in another thread (and probably earlier in this one as well), so I won't repeat myself. I think that any interaction between the two (Ryu and Oro) could only prove to be beneficial towards Ryu. The fact that Oro is intrigued by Ryu also says a great deal about Ryu's potential. Like I said earlier, Oro never seems to be phased by Gouki, even though he knows that Gouki is holding back. This doesn't mean that Oro would dominate Gouki, but I do believe that they are on a similar level. That's amazing, especially considering that Oro has been out of practice for so long, is only using one arm, and is 140+ years of age. Also, I would consider Gouki's new techniques to be Ansatsu-ken. They are based of the same sort of Ki manipulation that he uses to create Hadou-kens and the rest of his arsenal. Also, that is the art that he uses, and I don't see why those moves would fit into a different one. Most importantly, those moves are designed to kill, so they would fit right in Ansatsu-ken. There isn't really an English translation for this, but Saiki can translate Japanese and has a lot of good resources, so if you want any good details, he can probably help. Most of my knowledge was gathered just by trying to figure out whose ending's had the highest probability of happening. Then I figured out what Cap USA butchered and tried to adjust accordingly. With Capcom, the story can always change. Also, Saiki was working on an SF Story FAQ, but it isn't out anywhere yet. Tiamat is also developing an Alpha FAQ, and there is a link to it on page 13 of this thread. He does a good job of compiling a lot of the info on this thread into it. To FoF: What happened to your "professional demon"? I thought that it was kind of funny. -Clay Posted by FistsofFury on 11:01:2001 07:12 PM: I do it every Halloween, it's part of my overall goofiness gimmick Glad you liked it Posted by Ken_M. on 11:02:2001 12:49 AM: Thankes for the pics, Sieg. I've always wondered how Eagle looks like. Wasn't Ken suppose to be is SF1? Posted by Siegfried on 11:02:2001 08:12 AM: Yeah, Ken was in it, but I didn't include the picture there since he wasn't in the PC version. Posted by FistsofFury on 11:02:2001 03:43 PM: I have Ken's SF1 pic. I'll post it up when I get home, in a couple hours. Posted by Ultima on 11:02:2001 09:38 PM: quote: Originally posted by Berias Ultima: for the record, Venom is 6'3 260 pounds. Juggernaut is listed as 6'10 by marvelcomics.com but this is wrong. Cain Marko may be 6'10 but Juggs is not. Last time I checked, Venom's height was 5'11", not 6'3" (though I thikn he did way 260 lbs). This was in the Marvel Universe Update 1989, so it's very possible they've updated it since then. As for Juggernaut, I think 6'10" IS his official height. It was always listed as such, and until Rob Liefeld started drawing him, he was portrayed as such. All the gigantic versions of Juggernaut that have appeared in Marvel Comics and in the Marvel/Vs. games are based on Liefeld's (inaccurate) version. Since I've seen Juggernaut drawn to his older proportions since that time (it was in a Hulk issue, long after Liefeld had left Marvel), I'm going to assume that all those "Gigantic Juggies" to be nothing more than artistic licence. Until Marvel specifically says otherwise, I will continue to believe that Juggernaut's height is 6'10", not 10'6". Cain Marko in his original pre-Cytorrak state, BTW, is most definitely NOT 6'10". Not unless they retconned him into being that size before, which I doubt. Original Marko was normal sized (probably a little bigger than Xavier, who's supposed to be 6'1" and about 180 lbs himself). ObSf1: Geki is the last SF1 character I want to see updated. I don't care how old he is now. Posted by FistsofFury on 11:03:2001 03:33 AM: FistsofFury can't find the Ken pic BTWJuggernaught IS 6' 10''. Marvel says so: Right here: http://www.marvel.com/comics/bios/bio_juggernaut.html Posted by Golden Dragon on 11:03:2001 04:45 AM: Could someone please tell me what the writing on the back of Retsu's jacket/gi top means? You can see some of the writing in this pic: http://www.gamegen.com/fightgen/characters/retsu.html Also, what's Eagle's true storyline? I doubt he's really an agent for the British Secret Service (although I still like that storyline). Isn't he a bouncer or something? Why did he enter the SF1 Tournament? Posted by Siegfried on 11:03:2001 06:14 AM: LOL! The kanji on Retsu's back says "Retsu" which means: ardent, violent, furious. He's got his name on his back ^_^. Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:03:2001 06:54 AM: I THOUGHT Eagle was a member of the secret service but it appears I was wrong. Yea, he's a bouncer apparently, and he fought in the first Street Fighter tournament because he was hired to beat Sagat for some reason. This is what I gathered from this thread as well as the other street fighter threads Saiki participated in, at least... Posted by Golden Dragon on 11:04:2001 03:33 AM: What's Eagle's fighting style called? Is it called "Escrima," or are those Escrima sticks he fights with? Posted by Agent Guile on 11:04:2001 05:33 AM: As a Filipino citizen, I can give you guys some details on ESCRIMA (also known as ARNIS) since the martial arts originated from my country. From what I know, it was originally used by MUSLIMS in the Philippines possibly as a defense against Spanish colonizers. The original weapon used, I think is KRIS (a type of sword or something). At present, the martial arts is still present here, but this time only rattan (a type of hard wood) stick is being used. It still hurts a lot though. Most often, two sticks are used. But you cn also use a single one. ARNIS priciples can be used whether a person's armed or unarmed. Judging EAGLE'S pose, I find it hard to believe that his martial arts is actually ESCRIMA. If Capcom just studied the poses of ESCRIMA though, he would look gazillion times COOLER! Posted by Golden Dragon on 11:04:2001 02:23 PM: Well your guess is as good as mine, Agent Guile. All I know for sure is that those AREN'T tonfa sticks (police batons) he's fighting with & I don't know why so many ppl call them that. My best guess was that they were Escrima sticks, ya know? What else would they be? Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:04:2001 06:33 PM: Doh! Randomness. Erm, Saiki, you wouldn't happen to have Poison's bio, would you? ^^ Though it's not too big a deal, but if you do have it, that'd be great^^ Oh yea, is Rolento once being a member of Guile's unit true or am I mixing up his storyline with D. Dark? Posted by Sho 2 on 11:04:2001 07:22 PM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Doh! Randomness. Erm, Saiki, you wouldn't happen to have Poison's bio, would you? ^^ Though it's not too big a deal, but if you do have it, that'd be great^^ Oh yea, is Rolento once being a member of Guile's unit true or am I mixing up his storyline with D. Dark? D. Dark was part of a unit that Guile commanded. One of Rolento's unit then attacked that unit, killing everyone but D. Dark. Dark escaped severely traumized and re-emerged to the wolrd as D. Dark, the psycho we all know and love. I also know he vowed to kill either Guile or Rolento but can't remember which one or was it both. Okay, on the topic of EX. Can anyone confirm Skullmania's real name if I type it in? Posted by Siegfried on 11:04:2001 07:31 PM: It was Guile, for some insane reason. Not that the EX storyline matters anyway. I think I've heard a name for Skullo before, but there isn't a confirmed one in All About Capcom. Posted by Sho 2 on 11:04:2001 07:51 PM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried It was Guile, for some insane reason. Not that the EX storyline matters anyway. I think I've heard a name for Skullo before, but there isn't a confirmed one in All About Capcom. Yeah, that sort of figures because in another dumb part of his history er. character you notice that half his attacks mimic Rolento's attack and weapons. Oh, about the Skullo thing, I'm going to copy and paste part of an old fanfic from last year. "Posted by SkyHawk360 on July 19th, 2001 12:29 AM:" "Prologue 5" "Skullo's House. Tokyo, Japan." "It was just a normal for soda pop salesman Takeshi Ichima, better know all over the world as Skullomania, the world famous superhero who defeated Shadow Giest in the last EX tourny. All seemed well for Takeshi....For little did he know that a "loose cannon" was watching in the wings." I really didn't like this fanfic but it started me thinking a lot more about the EX series. According to this, Skullo's real name is Takeshi Ichima and he lives in Toukyou (Tokyo). Just wondering if this is the same thing you have heard. Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:04:2001 10:35 PM: Here we are again http://www.geocities.com/lordbahamut.geo/SFAstory.html Text version here http://www.geocities.com/lordbahamut.geo/SFAstory.txt Well, finally finished, with the exception of a summary of all the main endings that happened crammed into one semi-fanfic, but I figure that can wait. If you see any problems or anything which has been confirmed to be false (or something confirmed to be true that I missed), general feedback, stuff like that, etc, in there, I'd appreciate it if you point it out^^ I think I just about got everything there but it's a big FAQ so I imagine I probably screwed up somewhere... more than once, too. Oh yea, Seigfried, feel free to have it on Fighter Mania if you want^^ Though I think I'll just pass it through here one last time to clear up any remaining rough draft things. I probably won't be adding the total summary part in a while since I started that then realized it'd take a heck of a lot of energy and effort and I'm already engaged in several fanfic projects as it is:P I'll be submitting to gamefaqs eventually, too. Posted by art of mike on 11:04:2001 11:52 PM: The SF Ex had a kinda screwy storyline, the only story i was interested in was Kairi. Was he influenced by the "Killing intent" that akuma has, or was that against his own will?? The only good thing about the game was the Super cancels. Posted by FistsofFury on 11:05:2001 12:13 AM: quote: Originally posted by art of mike The SF Ex had a kinda screwy storyline, the only story i was interested in was Kairi. Was he influenced by the "Killing intent" that akuma has, or was that against his own will?? The only good thing about the game was the Super cancels. Check the first page of this wonderful thread, I asked about Kairi there. Posted by Siegfried on 11:05:2001 01:41 PM: No, I don't recognize that name. Let's see... I sort of doubt it since Ichima isn't a Japanese name, at least not a commonly used one. In itself it could mean "room one" or something like that, but not a name. Takeshi is a very common name though, so I think the fanfic writer simply made it up. Posted by Berias on 11:05:2001 05:07 PM: Clay: I agree with most of what you said, but I have to take issue with... "Following that path, Ryu eventually kills Gouki." I hope you aren't getting this from Evil Ryu's Z3 ending where he fights and defeats Shin Gouki, which is laughable. Also, Vega defeats Gouki (in the same game) as a sub boss and calls his power "less than nothing". That does not mean it's an alternate reality as much as it is a fan pleaser. "However, if Ryu is influenced by Satsui no Hadou, his true potential seems to spiral out of control." This could just as well mean he isn't skilled enough to control it regardless of the training he does. This is backed up by the fact that in almost every game he appears in, Evil Ryu's Shungokusatsu has either less hits or less damage than Gouki's. "...I think that it is a fight that he could win (see SFZ3)." Z3....I rest my case. Even if it is cannon, the non official endings are pure comedy at best. "Even with constant improvement on Gouki's part, Ryu could catch up to him." I can't believe that until Capcom gives significant proof in another game. For example, Ryu, who should almost be Gouki's alpha series age when he(Ryu) is in Sf3, can't even use Hadokens in the air. "I think that any interaction between the two (Ryu and Oro) could only prove to be beneficial towards Ryu. The fact that Oro is intrigued by Ryu also says a great deal about Ryu's potential." Ryu isn't the only one Oro is interested in. Here's a quote to Gill: "You might be what I've been looking for.... Let me look at you some more.... Hmmm...." And here's one to Elena: "I see potential in you girl. Come on, come closer." and also "Oro: "You look as strong as that boy with the headband. We shall see!" Gill: "Enough talk. I'll send you to heaven right here and now!" He's also interested in Ken. We already know they are strong. "Like I said earlier, Oro never seems to be phased by Gouki, even though he knows that Gouki is holding back." The best explanation for this is that neither knows of the other's existance. Or that they are diametric opposites of each other. Or that they have never actually fought. Actually, the two have such a small amount of interaction, what you said is really speculation, especially the part where you said Oro knows he's holding back. Where do you get this information? Here is the only interaction I could find between the two, and it really is quite interesting. I couldn't find Oro's "You claim to be a true master, but..." quote. What game did it come from? Oro to Gouki "Hmm? I think I met you somewhere before.... Is it just me? Will you tell me?" It follows Oro doesn't know Gouki as well as you said. Again, as far as character dialogue, Gill mocks Oro, but doesn't mock Gouki. So I don't think Oro is quite as powerful as you think he is. You could also turn this back around on Oro and say for all his vaunted power, he fails to catch Gouki's attention. "Where is the person who can satisfy me.... Does such a challenge exist?" -second impact "This doesn't mean that Oro would dominate Gouki, but I do believe that they are on a similar level." This isn't what I'm getting directly from the game. Until a game shows hard, credible evidence contrary to this, I can't believe it. "Akuma: "The might of the heavens resides in my fist.... Humans.... All walks of life!! It begins with the power of my savage attack!" -second impact Can either of them make a statement like this and back it up? There's a reason Capcom is making him sound like he controls/manipulates primeval forces. Ultima: "As for Juggernaut, I think 6'10" IS his official height. It was always listed as such, and until Rob Liefeld started drawing him, he was portrayed as such. All the gigantic versions of Juggernaut that have appeared in Marvel Comics and in the Marvel/Vs. games are based on Liefeld's (inaccurate) version." Juggernaut is usually billed at 6'10'' but is never drawn that way. When it conflicts with the comics, it is wrong, not the other way around. His height usually depends on who's drawing him. Ultimate X-Men (this is the newest stuff) shows Jugg *towering* over Colossus, who is around six and a half. Venom: The Madness shows Juggernaut quite a bit taller than a supercharged Venom, who was over 6 feet before he got that powerup. I have another URL lying around that shows you how big he is supposed to be. I'll post it when I find it. Fists of Fury: "BTWJuggernaught IS 6' 10''. Marvel says so:" Didn't you hear me say "It's listed at marvelcomics.com, but this is wrong"? Many stats at marvel comics.com are incorrect. Dr.Doom is listed as having a strength of 8. This is a joke. This would put Doom in the 100 ton plus range. Doom can lift 4000 pounds in his current armor. That is a fact. His strength should be 3. Hulk is listed as weaker than Apocalypse, which is absolute nonsense. Hulk is stated over and over again as having no upper limit on his strength. Apocalypse is almost the same, but he isn't stronger than Hulk. They also list Carnage as the physically sytrongest symbiote, when it's actually Venom. Even comic cards from a few years ago validate all these things and line up with the comics. Marvelcomics.com does not necessarily do that. Posted by Clay on 11:05:2001 06:23 PM: Berias: Nice post. You raise a lot of good issues. Capcom never directly states a lot of things in SF3, but I do think that most people do underrate Oro. I never said that Oro is better than Gouki, but the fact that he is holding so much back leads me to believe that he is very powerful. Also, while Oro may have made positive comments to other characters, Ryu is the one that both of his endings (2i, 3s)are devoted to. I'll give you a more specific reply later tonight. I'm a little short on time right now. Thanks. -Clay PS I believe that the quote that I posted from Oro is from 3s. Choose Oro, and on your final fight before Gill, he will talk to Gouki. I'll check my DC later to confirm this. Posted by Ultima on 11:05:2001 10:11 PM: From Berias: > > "As for Juggernaut, I think 6'10" IS his official height. It was always listed as such, and until Rob Liefeld started drawing him, he was portrayed as such. All the gigantic versions of Juggernaut that have appeared in Marvel Comics and in the Marvel/Vs. games are based on Liefeld's (inaccurate) version." > Juggernaut is usually billed at 6'10'' but is never drawn that way. Not any more. He used to be though, pre-Liefeld. > When it conflicts with the comics, it is wrong, not the other way around. His height usually depends on who's drawing him. Exactly. He has only been drawn as being gigantic post-Liefeld. And he HAS been drawn normal size since then, albeit seldomly (actually, I've only seen it once, in a couple issues of Hulk). It's easier to draw him gigantic than not. > Ultimate X-Men (this is the newest stuff) shows Jugg *towering* over Colossus, who is around six and a half. Not applicable, since Ultimate X-men is a completely new continuity (as are all the Ultimate books). They could easily state that Juggy is 10'6" in this new reality, but until Marvel officially states otherwise (as well as an explanation for why he's grown several feet from before), I'll still believe his height to be 6'10" in the current reality. Note that Juggy wasn't the only character this applied to - what about the Blob? The Blob used to be 5'10", but Liefeld drew him as being about 8' tall with no explanation. I'm not sure if anyone else drew him like that, but later on, Blob got a power boost from Onslaught that officially increased his size to somewhere around what Liefeld portrayed him as (a power boost I'm not even sure if he still has). But prior to his power boost, Blob's height was still supposed to be 5'10", regardless of how he was portraryed. BTW, in that issue of Ultimate X-men, was Colossus in human form or armoured form? Since he's suposed to be 6'6" in human form, and 7'5" in armoured form. As for that whole Ryu-Gouki thing, I don't think you'll ever see Ryu given most of Gouki's moves (like the air FB) because it would probably have too big an impact on the game's balance as well as Ryu's playing style. Thus, while Ryu *might* be close to Gouki's level in power, they can't show him that way in the game unless they make him an unplayable or secret boss or something. Posted by Clay on 11:05:2001 10:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by Ultima As for that whole Ryu-Gouki thing, I don't think you'll ever see Ryu given most of Gouki's moves (like the air FB) because it would probably have too big an impact on the game's balance as well as Ryu's playing style. Thus, while Ryu *might* be close to Gouki's level in power, they can't show him that way in the game unless they make him an unplayable or secret boss or something. [/B] Agreed. You can't make an arguement about how strong or weak Ryu is because he does or doesn't have an Air FB. I wouldn't want to see Ryu and Gouki play the same just to show that they are at the same level. Theoretically, just because Ryu doesn't have an air fb in a game doesn't mean that he isn't able to perform them. As far as the storyline goes, he may be able to use that technique. Just a thought. By the way, I think that it is a faulty arguement to begin with. By that logic, one could say the Ryu is more powerful than Gouki. Ryu is the only one who has an unblockable projectile (Denjin Hadou-ken). Last time I checked, Gouki never had one. Does this mean that Ryu is stronger than Gouki in SF3? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Not yet. -Clay Posted by asdf on 11:06:2001 01:44 AM: Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but why is final fight considered 1987 when the intro has "sometime in the 1990's" before the scene where Haggar takes the phone call from mad gear about Jessica? Posted by Berias on 11:06:2001 02:46 PM: The reason for this is that Capcom's continuity changes on a whim. So 1990 means "whenever we feel like it". The "Ultimate X-Men" may be a new universe, but Marvel started over virtually every character in this way, so it is valid. No, it isn't a bad argument. Using "but player A has this unblockable and B doesn't" is usually bad logic. We can bounce back moves one has but the other does not all day. It isn't in this case because the Hadoken is one of the techniques you said was staple to the ansatsuken arsenal. It follows that Gouken should have been able to figure out how to throw a "non-lethal" version in the air, since he developed one on the ground. But not even "Evil Ryu" could do this. The easiest explanation is that he isn't strong/skilled enough. Actually what I just said is getting too nerdy for even me. No reason to be a "trekkie" of street fighter, is there? My basic argument is that Ryu isn't anywhere near and will never approach Gouki's level. I think the best answer to both our arguments will be revealed in the next non-crossover games. But knowing Capcom, nothing will change. Posted by Clay on 11:06:2001 04:30 PM: quote: Originally posted by Berias No, it isn't a bad argument. Using "but player A has this unblockable and B doesn't" is usually bad logic. We can bounce back moves one has but the other does not all day. It isn't in this case because the Hadoken is one of the techniques you said was staple to the ansatsuken arsenal. It follows that Gouken should have been able to figure out how to throw a "non-lethal" version in the air, since he developed one on the ground. But not even "Evil Ryu" could do this. The easiest explanation is that he isn't strong/skilled enough. Actually what I just said is getting too nerdy for even me. No reason to be a "trekkie" of street fighter, is there? My basic argument is that Ryu isn't anywhere near and will never approach Gouki's level. I think the best answer to both our arguments will be revealed in the next non-crossover games. But knowing Capcom, nothing will change. That was my point, it is rediculous. My comparison is that saying that Ryu does not have the Zankuu Hadou-ken is the same as saying that Gouki does not have the Denjin Hadou-ken. They are both variations of the same move. If you are going say that Gouki is better because he has a variation of the fb that Ryu doesn't have, then any idiot could try and say that Ryu is better because Gouki doesn't have the Denjin . Somebody could theorize that Gouki isn't skilled enough to use the Denjin Hadou-ken, thus saying that Ryu must be better than Gouki (which is laughable at this point). I think that the arguments are one in the same, and equally rediculous. I often times think that I am too nerdy for my own good. My stance is that Ryu isn't near Gouki's level of power. However, after SF3, he seems to be on the cusp of superhuman abilities. Once he breaks that barrier, things will begin to change (eventually). Our only difference is that you think that Ryu cannot ever match Gouki, while I am almost positive that he can. -Clay Posted by Siegfried on 11:06:2001 04:33 PM: Akuma doesn't have Shin Shoryuken either, arguably the strongest (storyline wise) move except Shun Goku Satsu... and no Shinkuu Tatsumaki. Posted by Berias on 11:06:2001 06:30 PM: Do you also have profiles for EX characters? Posted by Golden Dragon on 11:06:2001 08:03 PM: Do Zangief & Aleksey Zalazof/Biff Slamkovich know eachother? Posted by Siegfried on 11:06:2001 11:32 PM: You talking to me? I do have the EX characters on my site, but in a different archive (so the page doesn't get even bigger). Posted by Berias on 11:07:2001 12:36 AM: Either you or Clay. I thought Clay had EX character backgrounds. I mean more than what the instruction manual goes into. Posted by Clay on 11:07:2001 01:05 AM: Nope, I don't have any. Saiki has a ton of bios, but I don't think that he has any EX bios because the game is made by Arika. Its a different universe. He would be the man to ask, but like I said, I don't think that he has any EX bios. I haven't seen Siegfried's EX bios, but if they're like his SF ones, then they should be pretty good. I suggest that you check out his site. If anybody has any info, then feel free to post it. -Clay Wow, over 400 posts. Posted by Azrael-sama on 11:07:2001 02:59 AM: And it's not even a sticky. Posted by Clay on 11:07:2001 04:05 AM: Berias: Since I responded to parts of one of your previous posts, I’ll try to respond to the rest of it now. I hope you aren't getting this from Evil Ryu's Z3 ending where he fights and defeats Shin Gouki, which is laughable. Also, Vega defeats Gouki (in the same game) as a sub boss and calls his power "less than nothing". That does not mean it's an alternate reality as much as it is a fan pleaser. Yeah, I hate how Gouki is disrespected in that game as well. However, I think that Evil Ryu’s ending isn’t too farfetched. The point is that Ryu is incredibly skilled, and if he gained a bit of a power boost (Satsui no Hadou) then he would be at least decent competition for Gouki, probably better than anyone else. Also, had Ryu given in to the Killing Intent, he may not have fought Gouki right away. Evil Ryu’s ending may have just been showing us that Ryu has the potential to become stronger than Gouki. I know that you don’t think that Ryu has a shot at him, but I think that it is possible. Whether Capcom agrees with me or was just using the ending for fan-service is unknown, but I tend to go with the former. Of course, I’m biased. Your right, Ryu isn’t skilled enough to reach his skilled potential yet. That is why Satsui no Hadou makes him stronger; it reveals some of his untapped potential. However, if Ryu keeps up his training and remains a master of his mind, then he will be a better fighter than he otherwise would be under the influence of Satsui no Hadou. This is why he can be a match for Gouki. It won’t be easy, but I think that if anybody can do it, Ryu has shown that it is him. For the record, Ryu is still younger in SF3 than Gouki was in Zero. Ryu may be ahead of how powerful Gouki was at his (Ryu’s) age. Ryu is 34-35 in SF3, while Gouki is 40+ during Zero. Ryu isn't the only one Oro is interested in. I already replied to this, but I can go more in depth. Like I said before only Ryu is featured in Oro’s endings, and he’s in both of them at that. This leads me to believe that Ryu is the one that Oro is searching for (Oro has also directly mentioned this himself). You stated that Oro also observes others, and while this is also true, he often makes references to Ryu as well. The fact that Oro compares Ryu to Gill should speak volumes. I don’t think that anybody doubts Gill, so for Ryu to be mentioned in the same sentence should send up a red flag. Also, even when Oro sees Ken, he is still more concerned with Ryu: “I could train you better… but who is that friend yours?”. Gill mocks Gouki as well, so I don’t see that as a separation between him and Oro: “Your destruction is the only thing that will save your cursed fist… you should thank me.” Like Gouki, Oro is also capable of talking big, so I don’t think that this separates them either: “Some call it unearthly abilities… I call in Senjitsu.” And “You have to start by learning to communicate with heaven and earth.” You said that there is a reason Capcom makes Gouki sound powerful, does the same apply to Oro? In the end it’s all just talk, so I wouldn’t place too much weight in it, but I don’t understand why Oro is still so underestimated. You asked for evidence from the game so let me provide some: -Oro is 140 years old. That alone is pretty impressive. -He has handicapped himself by only using one arm. The fact that he considers it unfair of him to use both shows that he has some serious power. -He hasn’t trained seriously for over 50 years and is still able to fight competitively. Who knows what he really is capable of. -He is shown in a superhuman light. From his age, to his double-jump, to his eyes, and his ability to manipulate objects Oro has shown that he can do things that know other (or very few others) can do. -The most important feature from the gameplay in 3s is that only Gill, Gouki, and Oro are allowed to have multiple supers at the same time. Gill can perform all his supers on the same bar, while Gouki can use a super plus the SGS and KKZ, and Oro is able to EX his supers. That is some pretty elite status. This should prove that these three currently represent the elite tier in SF. Oro is a pretty heavy hitter. You have to admit that the Kishin Tsuchi (super throw where Oro rockets his opponent into the sky and throttles them into the ground) and the Yagyou Daikon are incredibly impressive. This is why I think that he’s way stronger than what most people think. Also, I checked my DC and have the whole Oro-Gouki confrontation from 3s. As you will see, Oro isn’t exactly quaking with fear. He retains his cool, unlike Gouki, who is rather upset that Oro would dare challenge him. Oro: “Wow! You posses an incredible level of ki. So this is what you call… “Killing Intent”? Impressive for a young man like yourself. Gouki: “I’ve heard about you Sennin. Watch your words. They will reveal your destruction.” Oro: “You claim to be the master of fists… this disturbs me. The road to true mastery is much more difficult. Let us travel it now.” This is why I consider Oro a force to be reckoned with. It is impossible to know who exactly is the strongest, but Oro ranks up there. Because Gouki has been around the longest and has displayed his power the most, I refer to him as the strongest SFer. However, it is possible that Oro may be the best of them all. Only the future can tell us. -Clay Az: 400+ is a lot, but the Marvel Comics thread is almost at 900 and I don't even think that it was ever a sticky, so it looks pretty slim for this one. Too bad. Posted by Saiki on 11:07:2001 05:06 AM: Berias A few things that are wrong. Oro isn't interested in Elena that much. Here's the actual Japanese quotes. The USA version isn't that reliable. Oro to Elena "How should I say it, you should get some more effort into it." "Don't worry about me, I'm friends with nature" Although Oro is interested in Gill as well, which makes sense since Gill is very powerful. Also, Oro isn't phased or even scared of Gouki but neither is Gouki. Here's what Oro's quote is to Gouki. Oro to Gouki "No matter how much you master and master it, you can never tell what lies ahead. That's what martial arts is." Also in SFIII 3rd, the pre-battle talk between Oro and Gouki. Oro - Hoho, That's a pretty good amount of "ki". Is that Satsui no something that I heard about? Pretty good for such a boy like you. Gouki - The Sen-nin that I hear about. Those words may become a hazzard towards you. Oro - The path a warrior is much more harder than you think. It wouldn't be right if you mastered it already. Here, let me rough you up a little. Also, in SFIII 3rd, if you compare the size of the Shinkuu Hadoken that Ryu has, to Gouki's Messatsu Gou-Hadoken, to Oro's Lv3 Super Yagyo Dama, it's fairly easy to tell who packs the most "ki". Ryu isn't as strong as Gouki but Gouki and Oro are on equal levels. Oro is much better at "ki" manipulation than any other fighter in SF, but Gouki has the most skill out of any fighter in SF. Which pretty much makes the two equal. Tiamat I've got a few corrections, additions to your faq. Adon He doesn't want to see if Muay Thai can stand against the "Satsui no Hado". He wants the powers of the "Satsui no Hado" itself. Gouki/Akuma Gouki's island's name isn't Goketsutou. It's Gokuentou. Mike Bison/Balrog He killed one of Dhalsim's elephants for the hell of it. Blanka He's scared of the fence in Balrog/Vega's stage. Cammy Here's her actual Delta team members Delta Red chief Commander W. Watson Colonel Keith Wolfman Lieutenant Lita Luwanda George Ginz Matthew Mcoy Nash/Charlie He was the previous winner of the USA martial arts tournaments that Ken won. He's got perfect visions, he wears glasses because he likes them. Chunli She wanted to learn martial arts at the age of 5 because she saw a Bruce Lee movie. She's got Bruce Lee posters in her room. Dan He was Gouken's studen before Ryu or Ken were students. Ryu and Ken didn't even know of Dan's existance before Zero2. Same goes for Dan. Dhalsim He breaths fire because he is given powers by the god of fire, "Aguni" Edmund Honda He never became the Yokozuna, he made it to the Ouzeki status(one before Yokozuna), then he left for the world. He constantly disturbed his neighborhood because of his training. Feilong I'm pretty sure you know this but I'll tell you so you can fix it. Bruce Lee wasn't karate, he was kungfu. Guy He was a arrogant and cocky kid before. Zekuu picked him up and raised him and trained him to be what he is now. He's the 39th Bushinryu Ninpo master, Zekuu was the 38th and Genryusai was the 37th. The line in SFA2 where Rolento hints at Guy being a Mad Gear member is a mis-translation. Guy was never a member of Mad Gear. At the current state, Guy is missing. Maki is currently looking for him. Ken He's only 1/4 American. He's 3/4 Japanese. His mom is a Japanese and his dad is half American and half Japanese. He isn't blond in reality, it's dyed. This is why his hair has been orange, gold and blonde. He wears a red gi because when he trained with Ryu under Gouken, he saw that Ryu was better so he wanted to stand out more and took on a red gi. BTW, I must have over-looked it. Ryu wasn't present during the Gouki vs Gouken battle but Ken was. So basically the people that saw the Gouki vs Gouken battle are Ken and Gouken's daughter. But, Ken wasn't their till the end of the fight. Vega/M. Bison He used to be a martial artist who wanted to be the best and strongest. He was trained under someone, who at the time was the only Psycho Power user. He also trained along-side two other students. Vega killed his master and went on a rampage. It's unknown what happenned to the other two students. Rose Vega taught Rose soul Power. Sagat he became the Muay Thai god when he defeated the previous god, Nuah Kahn. Although, he lost to Adon when he unstable, the move "Tiger Genocide" actually damaged Adon enough that Adon had to goto the hospital for four months. Sakura Her brothers name is Kasugano Tsukushi A bunch of Shadowloo henchmen were sent to retrieve her as well but Sakura fought them off. Most likely she was planned to be a doll as well. Zangief He was piledriving a bear when he learned the Spinning Pile Driver. He has one scar on his back which he got when he protected the guy in his ending. *He is gay*......... But anyways, good job on the faq. I couldn't do anything even close to that. Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:07:2001 05:42 AM: Whoa! Thanks, Saiki! ^^ *corrects and adds* Ugh, yea... about Adon... that was a direct copy and paste from SFA3 that he wanted to overcome Satsu no Hadou, but yea, his actual dialogues in the Alpha games indicate that he wants the power, not just to overcome it. Yeeesh... stupid mistranslations. I take it E. Honda being Rikishi is a mistranslation as well? Holy crap, there are a lot of mistranslations lying around. Crazy Capcom of America... Zangief really IS gay?!? Wow! Guess that makes two then when you include Eagle. Ack! *smacks forehead* I saw your info about Bison having a master and the two other students before, but I forgot to include it. Can't believe I missed that one... *snicker* Chunli with the Bruce Lee poster thing is cute... Wierd. I heard about that Sakura being accosted by Shadowloo members and thought that it was probably because they wanted to make her a doll a loooooooong time ago, but I completely forgot about that by now. Never was able to confirm if that was official until now, either. Zangief's scar on his back... is that from protecting R. Mika or is that referring to a different ending? ^^ Hey, thanks A LOT^^ This is really good stuff for the FAQ. And thanks for the compliments^^ I wouldn't have been able to even get this thing off the ground without you and Clay and everyone else here to have this discussion^^ .... *blink blink* Wow. Random small irrelevant revelation. If Sakura became a doll, she most likely would have been the doll of May (Satsuki). Satsuki IS similar to Sakura (just as how Juli is similar to Julia, obviously)... Posted by Saiki on 11:07:2001 06:41 AM: Honda is a Rikishi. Rikishi is basically a Sumo wrestler, it means the same thing. I'm kinda interested right now to see how much Capcom USA has mis-translated/screwed up. And about Chunli adoring Bruce Lee, I remember it was rumoured and hoped, in Japan, for the longest time that Chunli would one day be using nunchucks just like Bruce Lee. I kinda wonder what Chunli thinks about Feilong since he's pretty much a clone of Bruce Lee. It would have been interesting if Sakura became a doll. Most lilely she would have been put against Ryu. But seriously though, I kinda wonder about Vega and his obsession with 16 year olds when he's like 50+. My friends and I call Vega a "lolicon oyaji"(translated as petifile old fart). Zangief was protecting Gorbachof(I don't know how to spell his name). I couldn't remember his name I little while ago. I do wonder if Zangief has certain feelings for Gorbachof........ Speaking of gay, just out of curiousity, where did this Eagle being gay thing come from? I've read just about every quote he has to say and I didn't see any quote that pointed him being gay. I play the Japanese version as well. Posted by Azrael-sama on 11:07:2001 07:45 AM: Wow, great stuff as usual Saiki, thanks! There's so much to the SF storyline that we just never get to see, but it really adds to it I think. I had no idea that Ken was 3/4ths Japanese, I thought he was just American and studied in Japan. This stuff is gold. Oh, and on Eagle being gay - in one of the other threads in this forum (something about gay chars...I think long since buried) people were saying he was gay because of his CvS2 win quotes to other characters. I don't remember them exactly, but supposedly for the within-team quotes after the fight, Morrigan offers to basically show him a good time, and he says he could never be interested in her. There was another one with Todo and Eagle too, but I don't remember it. I don't play as Eagle, so I haven't noticed his win quotes. Plus, they go by too quickly, and my Japanese isn't skilled enough to read that fast. -Az Posted by Golden Hell on 11:07:2001 12:48 PM: Wow. Awesome info there Saiki! Balrog/Bison killing an elephant! Thats priceless! The guy is a lot tougher than I give hime credit for. (Never really was good in playing as him) About those pre-fight talks and quotes in Third Strike, are there any other ones that are different in Japan than from the US version? Or are they pretty much the same? The Gouki/Oro pre-fight talk was pretty similar, I thought. Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:07:2001 03:03 PM: Copied and pasted from that thread Eagle's Quote, Vs rock: "A young boy like you needs experience... many kinds of them." Todo + Eagle victory dialogue: Todo: "Now you know the meaning of a men's strength!" Eagle: "If you'd like, I'll teach you, all night." Guile's Quote, Vs Eagle: "There's guys like this in the military too, but no thanks for me." Blanka's Quote, vs Eagle: "Were you thinking of eating me? You have a strange look in your eyes!" Eagle Quote, Vs Dhalsim: "Just because it's long doesn't mean everything." Eagle Quote, Vs Morrigan: "You can't seduce me. why not? Don't ask such stupid things." I think he also says "I want to try out how much you can handle" to either Chang or Raiden... eek' End post :P LOL!!! The elephant thing... wow, that's really random of Balrog... how mean. But yea, that's gotta be really powerful Oo Why is so obsessed with M. Bison so obsessed with sixteen year old girls? Maybe he just wants to find his feminine side again after Rose split off from his soul and is overcompensating. Or maybe he's just one big ol' pedophile. Who knows? Should we ask? Posted by Berias on 11:07:2001 03:07 PM: Clay and Saki: Thanks for the bitchin' dialogue/translation. It's a sin that I can't get that game for the DC. It looks like Oro is better than I gave him credit for. Maybe Capcom will stick him in the next game. I'm biased too, Clay, so don't worry about it. So Saiki do you have any EX character biographies? EDIT: Grammar error Posted by FistsofFury on 11:07:2001 04:12 PM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Copied and pasted from that thread Todo + Eagle victory dialogue: Todo: "Now you know the meaning of a men's strength!" Eagle: "If you'd like, I'll teach you, all night." Eagle Quote, Vs Dhalsim: "Just because it's long doesn't mean everything." Eagle Quote, Vs Morrigan: "You can't seduce me. why not? Don't ask such stupid things." Posted by Clay on 11:07:2001 04:17 PM: Thanks for backing me up about Oro, Saiki! Right, anybody who has seen the Yagyou Daikon (lvl 3 Yagyou Dama) should be impressed. His special victory pose that they show when you KO somebody with it is pretty cool as well. Saiki- Excellent information! I never knew that Nash was the former US martial arts champ. That's pretty cool. The story behind Ken's red gi is kind of funny. I'm still wondering who Vega's fellow students were. Will we ever get a chance to see them? Saiki: Check Gamefaqs for the CapUSA quotes to the SF3 series. They're listed under the Dreamcast Fighting games. Lantis has one on Double Impact (both NG and 2i). Somebody else also made one for 3s, but there are some holes in it (it has quotes, but lacks a lot of the pre-fight intros). If you want to know some of them, feel free to ask. I can check all three on my DC (American versions of the games). Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:07:2001 04:34 PM: Zangief to Gorbachev in his SF2 ending: You dance very well, Mr. President. Oh yea, if you didn't know already (though you probably did), Lantis has an Endings FAQ for SFA3 in the PSX section of http://www.gamefaqs.com which has all the US storyline dialogue for the characters. There's one somewhere in gamefaqs for SFA2, also, though dunno if that has all the dialogue completely. Crazy Capcom USA Chunli meeting Feilong would be nice. Lord knows that Feilong needs all the character development he can get... Hmm... if I was wrong about Dhalsim getting his fire from spicy curry, I wonder if I'm wrong about Blanka getting his electricity from electric eels... Oh yea, I once heard something about how Bison stored Psycho Power within his shoulderpads, but I forget if that's true or not I notice that the dolls have pseudo shoulder pads in their outfits, too, though. Or at least... shoulder patches. Posted by Siegfried on 11:07:2001 07:34 PM: I know the Blanka/eel thing was in the official SF2 as I learned it way back then, but that doesn't mean Capcom USA didn't simply make that one up. Cool info, Saiki! (and everyone else ^_^) I'm just going to take this as canon and add it to Fighter Mania now. Except those KoF'2000 sprites the other day (shameless plug!) I haven't spent much time on it. Posted by Saiki on 11:08:2001 01:43 AM: Azrael-sama If you've noticed, every single character that uses the art of Ansatsuken that Goutetsu made, is Japanese or has Japanese blood in them. Goutetsu - Japanese Gouken - Japanese Gouki - Japanese Ryu - Japanese Ken - 3/4 Japanese Dan - 1/2 Japanese Sakura - Japanese Sean - 1/2 Japanese Maybe the power of the Hado runs in the blood?....... Tiamat I think the move that Bison used to kill the elephant was the Gigaton Punch. Pretty scary if you think about it... I just noticed it just now. It's a mistake on my part, but Guy's BWH is wrong. His B isn't 198 but 108. And Matthew Mcoy isn't a Major. Rainbow Mika's trainer's name is Yoko Harmageddon. Oh yeah, Balrog/Vega is the one that rescued Cammy from the Shadowloo base. Those Eagle quotes in CvS2, I can't get a single one. Is their some way to get the winning quote that you want? I keep getting the generic quote that EAgle will say to anyone. Clay I seriously doubt we'll ever find out who Vega's fellow students were. Capcom seems to have forgotten about them just like Gouken's daughter...... Berias I'm pretty sure that the EX characters don't have any bio's if I'm not mistaken. Maybe Arika made them but to my knowledge, they don't exist. Golden Hell Most of the SFIII, SFIII 3rd pre-fight talk seems about the same when I checked it out with the faq over at gamefaqs. Although the winnning quotes seem off a little with some of the characters. But it seems SFIII series has the best translation out of all SF's. I looked at the SFA3 faq and couldn't believe how much was changed/mis-translated..... Posted by FistsofFury on 11:08:2001 02:24 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Azrael-sama If you've noticed, every single character that uses the art of Ansatsuken that Goutetsu made, is Japanese or has Japanese blood in them. Goutetsu - Japanese Gouken - Japanese Gouki - Japanese Ryu - Japanese Ken - 3/4 Japanese Dan - 1/2 Japanese Sakura - Japanese Sean - 1/2 Japanese Sean...half Japanese.... He sure as hell dosen't look it Why must all the hadou users be at least part Japanese? Posted by Clay on 11:08:2001 03:09 AM: Yeah, his full name is Sean Matsuda, which sounds sort of Japanese. Did anybody else notice that the less Japanese blood you have in you, the weaker you are. Gouki is Japanese and is in a league of his own, even compared to fellow Ansatsu-ken (Hadou) users. The same could be said for Goutetsu and Gouken when they were alive. Ryu is better than Ken and Ryu is Japanese while Ken has that pesky 1/4 American blood. Dan and Sean are by far the worst and they only have 1/2 Japanese blood. Sakura is Japanese and she may have more potential than almost anybody else, so while Ken is better than her now, she could become far greater in the future. Anyway, it seems that the Japanese fighters are more dedicated and focused on the fight than fighters of other nationalities. Also, Saiki, I had wanted to talk to you about some of the translations in the different SF games. Check your PM. Thanks, Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:08:2001 03:12 AM: Yea, I have the Vega saving Cammy from the base part^^ Holy crap. Killing an elephant with a gigaton punch... that's a lot of power Balrog has there Oo I think getting the victory quote had something to do with the button you held as you picked your team that unlocked the team quotes, but I don't remember I wouldn't know. I don't play CvS2, really. It's heresay I gathered from many different message boards from a variety of posters so I figured it was enough to confirm it. That and I assume the owner of Madman's Cafe can be trusted^^ http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...25&pagenumber=2 Here's the page of the thread that had the quotes... good luck finding out from here how to get those quotes to be said though because most of this thread degenerated into a debate on whether or not Poison was female and whether or not Guile and Ken were brothers-in-law for some damn annoying reason Them foreign gaijin aren't supposed to be as good as pure Japanese!!!!!!! ......I really hope that Japanese thing wasn't done on purpose with that intent in mind by Capcom... Posted by FistsofFury on 11:08:2001 03:15 AM: quote: Originally posted by Clay Yeah, his full name is Sean Matsuda, which sounds sort of Japanese. Did anybody else notice that the less Japanese blood you have in you, the weaker you are. Gouki is Japanese and is in a league of his own, even compared to fellow Ansatsu-ken (Hadou) users. The same could be Goutetsu and Gouken when they were alive. Ryu is better than Ken and Ryu is Japanese while Ken has that pesky 1/4 American blood. Dan and Sean are by far the worse and they only have 1/2 Japanese blood. Sakura is Japanese and she may have more potential than almost anybody else, so while Ken is better than her now, she could become far greater in the future. Anyway, it seems that the Japanese fighters are more dedicated and focused on the fight than fighters of other nationalities. Clay Interesting You bring up a good point, never thought of it before Posted by Clay on 11:08:2001 04:31 AM: Tiamat: I thought of that as well, but I think that it is more of a culture difference than a nationality issue. Most western societies have views that differ from the strict training that Ryu endures. American heroes have a different attitude, we just don't realize that it may be detrimental. That is why a lot of people like Ken. He is flashy, rich, has a trophy wife; he lives the good life. That's what draws the fans in, he's cool. Ryu has a different attitude towards fighting. It may be how he was raised and the difference in the society that he grew up on. It's also probably because fighting is all that he has. -Clay Then again, maybe Capcom does really hate all of us foreigners. Posted by Golden Dragon on 11:08:2001 10:02 PM: Yo Saiki, do Zangief & Aleksey Zalazof/Biff Slamkovich know eachother? Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:08:2001 11:24 PM: Yeeeeep... random notes I need to make sure are true... Does Vega/M. Bison really channel psycho power from the psycho drives through those shoulder pads? I'm wondering if the dolls do, too, myself, but what they have is more like shoulder patches than pads Genryusai is the 37th Bushin master. He was Maki's dad, right? Sagat took up Adon as a student 3 years after he became the next Muei Thai God? Hmm... I think that's about it. EDITTED Oops, wait, nevermind. Just looked it up. You posted those things back there so I'll assume they're true^^ Posted by Golden Dragon on 11:08:2001 11:50 PM: Tiamat I'm not CERTAIN 'bout your other statements, but I DO know Genryusai's Maki's dad & the 37th Bushinryuu Master. Btw, Maki's Rena's YOUNGER sister & was 20 years old during Final Fight 2, according to the Final Fight 2 Instruction Manual. It also said her hobby's street fighting. Posted by Clay on 11:09:2001 06:47 AM: Yeah, Genryusai was the 37th master as well as Maki's father. I thought that the metal plates on Vega's shoulders, forearms, and shins were sort of used as conduits for the Psycho Drive. I'm not totally sure of how it works, but I thought that the energy from the Drive was drawn to them. It is a pretty good explanation as to why exactly he wears them. I thought that Sagat started to train Adon around 5 years afterwards, so it may have been 3. I can't quite remember the exact length of time, but 5 is what popped into my head. -Clay Posted by Siegfried on 11:11:2001 05:02 PM: Wait, didn't someone say Guy defeated (or killed?) Zeku to become the 39th Bushinryu master? Doesn't that mean that Zeku must have beaten Genryusai first? How old was he then? It doesn't seem likely that he's the father of someone the same age as Guy when there is another generation of masters between. Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:11:2001 05:08 PM: Genryusai is ooooooold. Yet Maki is young. *snicker* Genryusai is... a very active old man http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/snes/a/ff2.htm He's also still alive for some strange reason. My guess is that instead of let Zeku kill him, he stepped down and retired, unless Final Fight 2 is an anomaly and Capcom's retroactively changing storylines again and ol' Genryusai's actually supposed to be dead... Posted by Golden Dragon on 11:12:2001 12:28 AM: Back when Final Fight 2 came out Genryusai was said to be Guy's master, but CAPCOM must've forgot that when they created the Zeku character, Guy's official master. Realizing this, the CAPCOM staff changed Genryusai to being the 37th Bushin Ninjitsu master (Zeku's sensei). Posted by Agent Guile on 11:12:2001 03:38 AM: quote: Ken - 3/4 Japanese KEN IS 3/4 JAPANESE? HOW? WHAT BOOK SAYS THAT? Posted by Ultima on 11:12:2001 06:42 AM: quote: Originally posted by Agent Guile KEN IS 3/4 JAPANESE? Yes. His mother is Japanese (old news - I knew that a long time ago, though I forget where I learned it), and apparently his father is half-Japanese (this I didn't know). To Golden Dragon/whoever knows for sure: Where does it officially say that to become the new Bushin Ninjitsu master you MUST kill the old one? I thnk you're right about Capcom forgetting that they originally said that Genryusai was Guy's master, and thus had to retcon him into being the previous master. The fact that he's still alive makes me believe that killing is not a requirement when becoming the new BUshin Ninjitsu master, though I could be wrong. Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:12:2001 07:16 AM: I think the official statement is that there can only be one Bushin Master at a time. Guy eventually like... challenged and killed Zeku so he could be Bushin Master, apparently. I don't think it's necessary to kill unless they want to hold onto the title or something? Oreo^^; Genryusai though, yea, he's still alive... so I imagine he decided to step down and give the title to Zeku? I dunno. It's confuuusing. I am pretty sure that there's supposed to only be one Bushin Master in the world at a time though, at least... ....damn, I'm no help at all here:P Posted by Siegfried on 11:12:2001 11:41 AM: Still, the point I was looking for is that Genryusai is ooooooold. Guess that ending proved it. ^_^ I've forgotten exactly what was said in the SFA2 ending (and it might be Cap USA butchered for all I know), but Zeku and Guy just fight, with Zeku saying something like "Now, let's see if you can be the next master". We need another SF prequel with all those old guys. There are too many interesting background characters that are either dead or too old to fight. I've pointed this out before, and I'll point it out again (because I'm trying to waste a little time here ^_^): A Street Fighter Legends (the original title for SFA/Z by the way) with a young Sagat, let's say 15 years before SF1 or so, as the main character. Gouken, Gouki and Goutetsu as the Shotos, possibly with Goutetsu as a boss or something (like Akuma is now). A younger Bison without his full potential (like the Ganondorf thing in Zelda:OOT). Chun-Li's father (so we finally get a name for him!) together with Gen and possibly Lee. Geki might be a choice. Go Hibiki would probably still be alive. Zeku or Genryusai would provide the Bushinryu role. Oro might be a contender (but then again it states that he hasn't fought for 50 years). Dhalsim and Zangief are both old enough to be in this game as young fighters, but I think their backgrounds state that they didn't start fighting until quite late. This way Capcom could build on the styles they've already created, without having to think up something new, and still using some kind of continuity instead of having completely new characters with the same style as in SF3. And we would get a lot of official backstory for the later games, at least in the Japanese version ^_^. Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:12:2001 05:04 PM: Blarg. I just realized I screwed up various parts of Guy's and Gen's storylines pretty mightily in the FAQ. Forgot to include how Guy fought Zeku in SFA2, and Gen kills Akuma in SFA3 so I have to file his ending as contradictory. How could I have missed that? Yea, Zeku asks Guy if Guy is willing to stake his life on this match, so it's a match to the death. How ruthless, indeed Oo Since Zeku was the one that threw down the death match, I imagine that the only reason Zeku had to die is because he decided to make it a match to the death, not because the Bushin successor HAS to kill the Bushin Master to become Master, himself. Street Fighter Legends. Hmm, sounds intriguing. But Street Fighter Legends needs a female character. I don't think a fighting game can succeed these days without one ^_~ Then you can watch Capcom make backgrounds for the characters in Street Fighter Legends, and Capcom will thus have to have a game for them and get sucked into an endless prequel spiral!!! WEEEEEEE! Or maybe not. I'd be really really surprised if they did something like another prequel SF game though that's too early for them to use most existing characters... Capcom has already shown with SF3 that if they wanted to make up a whole bunch of new characters without caring about what characters existed in the past, they can do that with a sequel and not a prequel. Posted by Siegfried on 11:12:2001 07:51 PM: Of course it would have girls, just noone we know. Or a younger Rose, who knows. Most of the girls weren't even born at this time. Chun-Li would be 5 or something, and she didn't fight back then. It would take place in 1972 and Bruce Lee wasn't that famous until Enter the Dragon in 1973 ^_^. Or maybe he was in China, what do I know? Still, they already have designs for these characters (Go, Gouki, Gouken, Goutetsu and young Sagat at least), and the moves are available. Plus, people have been wanting to defeat Sheng Long/Gouken for 10 years now, why not let them? ^_^ Posted by Clay on 11:12:2001 09:53 PM: Actually, I think that Zeku is still alive. Most likely, Cap USA screwed up the translation. I know that Alpha 2 led me to believe that Zeku was killed by Guy, but I think that it is incorrect. I'm pretty sure that Zeku kind of just went back into hiding after Guy proved himself worthy of being the Bushin-ryuu Master. I don't don't think that Guy killed him. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:12:2001 10:20 PM: Yea, I've been wondering if that was a mistranslation myself. I mean, Guy killing Zeku is just a weeeee bit TOO ruthless for my tastes. Even with the "They fight each other without hate" disclaimer at the end of SFA2. That always made me wonder about Zeku, and Genryusai still being alive makes me wonder a bit more. Why would Zeku fight to the death if he didn't have to? *checks various SF story threads that Saiki participated in* Oh! Yea, you're right. Saiki stated that Zeku simply dissappeared after Guy beat him. Guy's SFA2 ending is either a mistranslation, or people are interpreting it wrong (it doesn't necessarily guarantee that the fight was to the death. Zeku asks Guy if Guy stakes his life on the match, which has multiple possible interpretations) BWAHAHAHAHA, people can finally fight and defeat Sheng Long so they may stand a chance! They should have Sheng Long be there as a joke character. Posted by Agent Guile on 11:13:2001 01:02 AM: Damn, I thought there sin't any truth in SF2V where Ken's mom is a Japanese. Posted by Saiki on 11:13:2001 04:22 AM: Zeku is still alive. Guy didn't kill him in that Zero2 ending. Although before I thought he did though. And surprisingly, Cap USA didn't screw up the translation on Guy's ending. Zeku actually did ask Guy if he would put his life on the fight. Zeku asked Guy that because as a Bushinryu warrior, they must always stand against anything that disrupts the flow of nature(Vega, Gouki, etc, etc). But considering that people who can disrupt the flow of nature have in-human powers, they could die trying to stop them. That's why Zeku asked Guy that question to Guy, because he wanted to see if Guy was ready to take on the role of 39th Bushinryu master. A Bushinryu warrior must be ready to die during any battle. Street Fighter Legends would be a cool game. It could bring in alot of old characters that only existed in SF story-wise. I'd like to see Haggar back, but has a different style instead of a Zangief clone. Oh yeah, Agent Guile, Ken being 3/4 Japanese is stated in every SF book that I have. All About Capcom Fighting games, Official Street Fighter 2 fan book, All About SFZero3, Official Street Fighter Zero2 guide, etc, etc. They're all in Japanese. Posted by Ultima on 11:13:2001 05:06 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Guy's SFA2 ending is either a mistranslation, or people are interpreting it wrong (it doesn't necessarily guarantee that the fight was to the death. Zeku asks Guy if Guy stakes his life on the match, which has multiple possible interpretations). Yeah. I know that I never considered the possibility that Guy had killed Zeku. I thought he just beat Zeku, became the new Bushinru master, Zeku stepped down, and that was that. I was very surprised when people were claiming that Guy killed Zeku, because I never interpreted his Zero2 ending that way. Huh. That idea for SF Legends (i.e. prequel to SF1) is a rather old one. I had the same idea a long time ago, actually. I originally envisioned it as an earlier SF (World Warrior) tournament, but apparently Sagat is the one who origanized the first WW tournament in SF1. I preferred the notion of the WW tournament as a periodically occuring event that occurs whenever there's a sponsor, so that little tidbit about Haggar being a former SF champ would still apply. So any SF Legends game would have to be like in Alpha, where it doesn't center around an actual tournament - just people finding and fighting each other for whatever reason. As it is, I don't know why, for example, Geki or Haggar would seek out Goutetsu, Gouken, Gouki or Gen to fight them. Then again, Capcom would always retcon things again and say that there was another WW tournament before SF1, perhaps one where Sagat participated in, which he used as a basis to organize his own tournament several years later. Who knows? *shrugs* Posted by Agent Guile on 11:13:2001 09:04 AM: Damn, Ken's look doesn't show any traces of Japanese blood. Posted by Saiki on 11:13:2001 10:09 PM: I see traces of Japanese blood in Ken's face. Posted by Siegfried on 11:13:2001 10:36 PM: I dunno, I've had the idea for that game for a long time, and the name SF Legends was the first I heard for Alpha. Then again, it would make sense, which is probably why different people can come up with the idea and why Capcom will never make it ^_^. Still, if they ARE making a new SF game, why NOT make it a prequel? Putting games further and further into the future (2002, 4 years after SF3 would be a logical choice) just means more and more strange characters like Q and Twelve. Going back to the 70's, they could have a more classical Bruce Lee style tournament (and don't try to tell me that Ryu's ending wasn't ripped directly from Bruce Lee!) without those crazy things. Clearing up/messing up the story would just be a bonus. Posted by Siegfried on 11:13:2001 10:38 PM: BTW, the stated reason why Guile doesn't acknowledge Ken as his brother-in-law was that he didn't like his style... But is it possible that Guile is simply a little racist and dislikes Ken because he's 75% Japanese? Then again if he had racist tendencies I doubt Chun-Li would be his friend ^_^. Posted by goukigirl2002 on 11:14:2001 11:51 PM: question for saiki! hi saiki!!...umm kindof off topic but do you know where i can find the official street fighter fan books with goukens daughter gouki before he was possessed etc! on the net?!?! or they are just japan only?.if you can please tell me!!--bye saiki Posted by Lantis on 11:16:2001 01:25 PM: I'll bump this thread back alive! *RESURRECTION!* *HEALING!* *SHUMA-GORATH HK THROW!* *ATHENA STRIKER!* *FINAL BRINGER!* Whoops! Wrong game! Carry on! Posted by FistsofFury on 11:16:2001 03:33 PM: um...........what's there to talk bout? Posted by Clay on 11:16:2001 04:42 PM: Siegfried: This thread still lives. Props to Lantis for the "resurrection". Don't know if there really is too much to talk about, we've covered a lot. If anybody has any more questions, then feel free to post them. If not, then I can think of a few topics to post later. Also, the SF prequel is a really good idea, but how many years before SF1 would it take place in? I could see it focusing on either a young Ryu and Ken (in the midst of their training), but I think that most people would rather see it take place earlier than that. I would also like to see a pre-Satsui no Hadou Gouki. More than anything else, it would be really nice if Goutetsu made an appearance. I want to know how the creator of Ansatsu-ken wielded the art. What was his philosophy on the killing aspects? Would he obtain boss-like status in this game? One last note is that I would hate to see Gouken or Gouki fight exactly like Ken or Ryu. I hope that Capcom could be a little more original than that. Hopefully each character would have their own unique variations of each technique. -Clay Posted by Siegfried on 11:16:2001 06:46 PM: Where was this thread? I scanned back several pages for it... Even if I've copied most of the nice info into FM already, this is a fantastic source of knowledge for anyone. As for SF Legends, it should certainly be a lot earlier. We've seen young(er) Ryu and Ken already. The problem is, Gouki already has his style decided. And Gouken would probably be using the same style as Ryu/Ken since he taught them. Goutetsu can have his own secret master moves though if he likes ^_^. Posted by FistsofFury on 11:16:2001 07:16 PM: To tell the truth, for an SF prequel... I don't want to see Ryu and Ken I've had enough of them. I wanna see Gouki and Gouken, Goutetsu too. Maybe a younger Gen...... But that alone can't make a fighting game...an RPG maybe.... Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:16:2001 07:44 PM: Street Fighter Legends: The RPG! As narrated by your host, Lord Bison!!! (US names) M.Bison: *is watching the Dolls training while looking at picture of Ryu* Ah yes. It's amazing that only six years ago, Ryu was just another random student of a not-so-random Kung-Fu master. Sagat: I think it's amazing that six years ago, DAN was the student of said Kung-Fu master. Vega: I think it's amazing that only six years ago, the Dolls were children in grade school. M.Bison to Sagat: Were you correcting me? I don't like it when people correct me... Sagat: (Mental note to self: Quit Shadowloo) Weee... Well, I know that T. Hawk could be in Street Fighter Legends... like anyone would care >:P Gouken's daughter might be a bit too young, I think? I'm hoping I have all of the data in this thread for the most part compiled in the SFAstory FAQ, though for some reason there always seems to be something new in there that I missed before and needed to re-add, which is why I haven't even submitted the thing to Gamefaqs yet. And of course that FAQ mostly pertains just to the Alpha series, though honestly, there isn't much storyline to compile for other Street Fighter games... Posted by P33K@J3W on 11:16:2001 07:53 PM: SF4: My Idea I think it is enevitible that Capcom will buy the rights to some of the SNK franchize. There fanbace in Japan is to great not to do it. I would propose that SF4 is held Ryu as a way for him to find out if he is the most powerfull in the world. There will be Grouped Teams Like in KOF and Benifits for using a whole group. It would not run a a Ratio System but it would run on a spin off Idea simmiler to CvS. You could pick Any two Fighters for your Team or you could Opt to Use a Preset Team of Three. My Team List is As Follows... UNAFILIATED Ryu, Gouki, Rugal, Vega, Geese, Blood Riot Iori Good Guy Team: Ken, Sean, Kyo Fighting Spirit Team: Guile, Remy, Benimaru Dedication Team: Rock, Yun, Terry Mu Thai Team: Sagat, Joe, King Evil Brotherhood Team: Iori, Rolento, Yamakasi Power Team: Alex, Zangeif, Hagar Freindly Team: Guy, Andy, Mai Wanabee Team: Sakura, Fei-Long, Ryo Old Arts Team: Dhalsim, Todo, Oro Destiny Team: K, Vega, M.Bison Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:16:2001 08:10 PM: I think SNK's old CEO/owner already managed to buy back the rights to the majority of SNK's intellectual properties. I'd be surprised as hell too if Capcom not only managed to get KOF, but also decided to merge KOF's storyline with Street Fighter. They just can't merge. They conflict too much and I'd like to be spared the Evil Organization Battle Royale... Announcer: In this corner, Shadowloo! In this one, Geese! Here, Nest! Here, Rugal! And in the fifth corner of this wacky pentagon of FUN, KAIN!!!!!!! Audience: *boggles* Only way they can do stuff with that is in noncanon VS games like Capcom vs SNK. So don't expect to ever see a Street Fighter 4 like that. Posted by P33K@J3W on 11:16:2001 08:12 PM: ¤P33K@J3W goes and crys in the corner¤ Posted by P33K@J3W on 11:16:2001 08:14 PM: BTW I have read Every Page of THIS thread today and have enjoyed it emencly.. I did not see any info on Eagle, I know he is SF1 but any story on him? Posted by Berias on 11:16:2001 09:15 PM: Personally, I hate prequels. They should have another SF about 50 years in the future when all the current ones are dead. That would pretty much be SF3 without Ken and Ryu. See, it's not so bad. Posted by FistsofFury on 11:16:2001 10:20 PM: quote: Originally posted by Berias Personally, I hate prequels. They should have another SF about 50 years in the future when all the current ones are dead. That would pretty much be SF3 without Ken and Ryu. See, it's not so bad. If it took place 50 years from the Like Third Strike, it's a sure bet Ryu would still be in it Sure he'd be like 80 , but the man said it himself: "If I can move een one of my fingers, I will keep on fighting!"...so yeah, I think he'd still be alive, and still fighting. It's all he is. Like at ORO, or Gen, they're old as dirt but still quite powerful Posted by Ultima on 11:17:2001 09:44 AM: quote: Originally posted by FistsofFury If it took place 50 years from the Like Third Strike, it's a sure bet Ryu would still be in it Sure he'd be like 80 , but the man said it himself: "If I can move een one of my fingers, I will keep on fighting!"...so yeah, I think he'd still be alive, and still fighting. It's all he is. Like at ORO, or Gen, they're old as dirt but still quite powerful Heh. It's not that bad an idea, actually. Totally unoriginal of course (see Tekken 3, Garou: MArk of Wovles, or Samurai Spirits: New Chapter of Blade). But a Really Old Ryu™ might actually be interesting. And yes, like old beasts Gen and Oro before him, he would be amazingly powerful. Ken wouldn't be in it, but you can be damn sure his grandson (who also coincidentally is named Ken, and looks a lot like Ken ) will be in it. Because Capcom has decreed that no SF game will ever be without Ken and Ryu again (since the beta version of Sf3 didn't have Ken or Ryu, and no one cared). So it would be another Sf3, though hopefully this time without the stupid parrying. On a more serious note, I would like to see any potential SF4 take place much, much sooner than that - say, 3 years after SF3. Cause I WANT to see the old cast return - not necessarily all of them, but certainly the most interesting ones. Posted by Siegfried on 11:18:2001 12:41 PM: Okay, for something else to discuss - how about Star Gladiator? I bought the DC Plasma Sword cheap and ripped the pictures from it for Fighter Mania. However, I got a good trade-in deal for it at another shop, so I got rid of it. Even though the gameplay is crap, there are some cool characters and storyline going on. Does anyone know more about it? And yes, I know it's all in All About Capcom, but it's not like I can read it ^_^. Posted by FistsofFury on 11:18:2001 07:09 PM: quote: Originally posted by Ultima Ken wouldn't be in it, but you can be damn sure his grandson (who also coincidentally is named Ken, and looks a lot like Ken ) I doubt they'd keep the name...they could get away with a middle-aged Mel.......or a GIRL that's the daughter of Mel, and has moves like her grandaddy Posted by Siegfried on 11:20:2001 03:28 PM: Tiamat brought up something interesting in his FAQ - Rose = Anita? I don't know when DS is supposed to take place - sometimes it looks like 18th century and something like modern day. Still, if you color Anita's hair purple (and in anime, things like that happen all the time ^_^) she's a young Rose! So, is it just coincidence or did Capcom think of a crossover at some point? http://www.tekken.nu/fightermania/art/anitarose.jpg Posted by Clay on 11:20:2001 05:35 PM: I've heard people talk about Rose=Anita before, but I don't think that there is anything to it. I'm not exactly sure when DS (VS) takes place but I think that a few of them were in an alternate dimension of sorts (Demon realm?). Anyway, I don't really play them much, so what do I know? I guess that a crossover between the two worlds just doesn't seem to fit. They're too different. For SF4: I'm with Ultima, I'd like to see it take place within 5-6 years after SF3. I've worked out a lot of scenarios in my head, so the time doesn't matter too much, but if it happens in the present day, then we have a shot at seeing Sagat one more time, which is what I really want to see. Ryu vs. Sagat would be too good! Either way, Capcom will probably keep Ryu in the game no matter when it takes place. I'm not sure if he's going to die any time soon. -Clay Posted by Clay on 11:20:2001 06:09 PM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried As for SF Legends, it should certainly be a lot earlier. We've seen young(er) Ryu and Ken already. The problem is, Gouki already has his style decided. And Gouken would probably be using the same style as Ryu/Ken since he taught them. Goutetsu can have his own secret master moves though if he likes ^_^. Agreed about the timeframe. Yeah, Gouki already has his style, but if he’s pre-Satsui no Hadou, then this might change things. He could play like a totally different character. Some moves may be added or subtracted depending on his previous abilities. He might not be able to perform some techniques (Shun Goku Satsu, Kongou Kokuretsu-zan, Zankuu Hadou-ken?) and his other moves may have changed as well (multiple hits?, knockdown capability?, juggle priority). While Gouken taught Ryu and Ken a non-lethal form of Ansatsuken, he himself was taught the full version, so hopefully he would play differently than Ryu and Ken. He was also quite the fighter, so he may have a few of his own techniques as well. Why couldn’t he have a new move or two? They don't have to be entirely new techniques, they could be variations of existing moves. Also, Gouken and Goutetsu could have a few tweaks to them. Perhaps an alternate normal attack or two or different supers. Even different walking speeds and jump lengths. This would help them play a lot differently than the standard "shoto". Just a few thoughts. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:20:2001 08:26 PM: Sorry, I probably should have clarified this in my FAQ a bit more, if you don't understand it already^^ I heard from multiple sources and people that DarkStalkers 3 takes place in the 80's. This has not been personally confirmed by me, myself, but I heard from enough people and sources for it to be really really plausible and likely, I feel. At any rate, if Anita were in Darkstalkers 3, she'd be just a bit too young to be Rose by the time SFA3 takes place. However, Anita is not supposed to be in Darkstalkers 3 (Donovan, whom Anita is with, isn't in Darkstalkers 3. He's in Chronicles, but Chronicles is supposed to be a combination of all the DS games, I thought). Darkstalkers 2, on the other hand, when you take a look at Lei Lei and Lin Lin's real life counterparts, were born as babies right at the end of Darkstalkers 2, and by Darkstalkers 3, they seem to be about twelve to sixteen years old. This would make the timeline nearly perfect for Anita to be Rose's age by Street Fighter Alpha 3, if these endings are being interpreted right. Darkstalkers takes place mostly in an alternate Dimension called Makai and Majiden (Majiden is a third alternate dimension that Jedah created). However, the real world dimension does exist, as shown by several endings (Anakaris grabs a human from the real world to be one of his chosen subjects in the demon dimension, and Lei Lei and Lin Lin have alternate reincarnated selves that live in the real world, etc). ...whew. If some of this doesn't fit in exactly, sorry about that. I'm not a Darkstalkers storyline guru by any means^^ Posted by Saiki on 11:20:2001 11:15 PM: Vampire Savior actually takes place around 1990. It says right in All about Capcom fighting games that Jedah died once around 1890. Later it says that he tried to consume too much energy to fight Berios and died from it. That would make Vampire Savior take place around 1990. So the previous one Vampire Hunter might have taken place in the 1980's. It's never been stated how much time has passed from Vampire Hunter to Vampire Savior. If Rose is Anita though, that would make Vega, Rose, Sagat, Gouki, Oro and Gill at least as powerful as Jedah. Because Jedah referred to a woman ruling the human world. This was later stated by Capcom that Jedah was refering to Anita. He stated that he must defeat her in order to take over the human world. But he couldn't do it without the Shintai(the fetus) in full power. That would mean that the woman would be as powerful as Jedah, if not more. It'd be interesting to see if Capcom will mix the Vampire series and SF series. Posted by Siegfried on 11:21:2001 04:00 PM: I have the Darkstalkers time as 1983, at least the first one. It was said that Demitri reappeared after 500 years, and he's born 1483. I take this as his second coming was 500 after the first, since this doesn't include the years he was active. It also puts Felicia's age at 16 (born 1967) which is the common age for cute fighting girls ^_^. Also, I don't think any of Hsien-Ko's endings make sense. She was born 1720 (but looks like she's 16 according to the bio), so she probably became a ghost in 1736. The true problem is that Pyron was "born" or whatever in 1991. So, is this game set in 1991-1994 (1994 being the release date of the game, which often is the year it takes place) with a Felicia that's 24-27? Doesn't look right. Posted by Saiki on 11:21:2001 06:37 PM: Cool, then we have the timeline figured out for the Vampire/Darkstalker series. The first one Vampire/Darkstalkers(Vampire Hunter/Darkstalkers 2 is the same story as the first one) takes place in 1983. While Vampire Savior/Darkstalkers 3 takes place around 1990. With Lei-Lei/Hsien Ko, they were born in 1730 like it says. Their family were users of Sen-jutsu. When the two sisters who just about to go through the official ceremony to become Sen-jutsushi, Darkstalkers attacked their village. The mom died saving the two sisters. The two sisters wanted to save their mom so they used a spell that turned Lei-Lei into a Kyong-shi and Lin-Lin turned into the Ofuda so Lei-Lei won't go out of control. AFter their battle with the Darkstalkers, they were re-incarnated like in their ending. When they hit 16 years of age in their re-incarnated selves, the two regained their memory from before and were sucked into the Majigen. And that thing with Pyrons brithdate doesn't make any sense at all. I think it was a screw up on Capcom's part. Because they also say that Pyron has lived for 200,000,000 years. I really wish that Capcom had actually made the sequal that was being planned. They even had a title made for it, called "Vampire Ressurection". Makes me mad that they decided to stop it for unknown reasons. Posted by Siegfried on 11:21:2001 08:06 PM: But then it should be 16 years between DS1 and DS3, not 7. Or maybe Darkstalkers 3 is in 1999 and Jedah is simply planning some Y2K doomsday ^_^. Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:21:2001 08:38 PM: Oh. So Darkstalkers 2 was the one that was supposed to take place in the 80's, and not 3? ....damn, this is confusing. There are lots of conflicting timelines... of course, when is Capcom NOT sloppy with the timelines? BLARG. Ah well. Close enough, I guess. It seems like it'd be really early 80's or something then which would make Anita aaaalmost old enough to be Rose by SFA3, with the small years margin of error being accounted for by Capcom timeline sloppiness. Wow, Jedah's prediction for Anita seems to go hand in hand with Bison's predition for Rose about Rose standing victorious on Doomsday. I'd still be really really surprised if Capcom meant for it all th reconcile like this, but I have to admit that if it's true, it'd be really damn cool... Yea, Hsien Ko's endings are hard to understand because they involve a lot of reincarnation and such. Saiki explained it a lot better than I could. I know not much about the Vampire series. It's too bad that Capcom's been so neglectful of it, because it actually has a cool storyline, too. Posted by DA GAME on 11:21:2001 10:04 PM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Vampire Savior actually takes place around 1990. It says right in All about Capcom fighting games that Jedah died once around 1890. Later it says that he tried to consume too much energy to fight Berios and died from it. That would make Vampire Savior take place around 1990. So the previous one Vampire Hunter might have taken place in the 1980's. It's never been stated how much time has passed from Vampire Hunter to Vampire Savior. If Rose is Anita though, that would make Vega, Rose, Sagat, Gouki, Oro and Gill at least as powerful as Jedah. Because Jedah referred to a woman ruling the human world. This was later stated by Capcom that Jedah was refering to Anita. He stated that he must defeat her in order to take over the human world. But he couldn't do it without the Shintai(the fetus) in full power. That would mean that the woman would be as powerful as Jedah, if not more. It'd be interesting to see if Capcom will mix the Vampire series and SF series. It would be interesting if Capcom would just go ahead & develop Darkstalkers 4 that way all our questions would be answered. Posted by reignard on 11:22:2001 01:59 AM: i've got a question, what were the actual events in the third strike storyline? since it was suppososed to be a tournament it would be interesting to know how far each character lasted. Posted by Saiki on 11:22:2001 02:43 AM: 3rd Strike was never a tournament. SFIII New Generation/2nd Impact(they're the same story) was the tournament. The only thing known about who went against who are these. Sean lost to Ken Ryu lost to Oro Oro didn't show up for his fight against Alex Alex won the tourny Other than that, nothing else is known. Posted by Coola Yagami on 11:22:2001 03:26 AM: Why isn't Third Strike a tournament? Isn't it just the same thing as New generation/Double Impact? And I'm not sure if the Alpha series counts as cannon. I mean, if you ignore the Alpha series, SF1, Super SF2 Turbo and SF3 Third Strike all fit perfectly well together. The only reason SF Alpha would be required to be cannon is if SF3 added Sakura, Rose or someone and specifically acted as if Alpha events happened. Posted by Clay on 11:22:2001 03:29 PM: Wow, seeing all of the DS information is really cool, kind of makes me want to play some of the games. Anyway, with all of the "coincidental" similarities between the games, a DS-SF crossover would be amazing. Will Capcom ever bring back the Vampire series? Perhaps they were just postponing it so that some of the SF'ers could catch up to them. You have to admit, most of the characters from SF1, Zero, and SF2 really aren't strong enough to hang with the DS characters. However, in the next SF game or two, we could see whole bunch of characters who have a considerable amount of power. Oro, Gouki, and Gill would be good candidates as well as Ryu and maybe a few others. Vega could possibly return yet again. Posted by Clay on 11:22:2001 03:48 PM: quote: Originally posted by Coola Yagami Why isn't Third Strike a tournament? Isn't it just the same thing as New generation/Double Impact? And I'm not sure if the Alpha series counts as cannon. I mean, if you ignore the Alpha series, SF1, Super SF2 Turbo and SF3 Third Strike all fit perfectly well together. The only reason SF Alpha would be required to be cannon is if SF3 added Sakura, Rose or someone and specifically acted as if Alpha events happened. No, they're not the same. 3s clearly takes place after the first two. In Alex's 2i ending he wins the tournament, then in his 3s ending, he states that he won't be coming home because he wants to seek out other worthy adversaries and to fight Ryu again. Also, Oro has already met Ryu in 3s, Dudley has his car back, Gouki has the Kongou Kokuretsu-zan... etc. These events all take place after the tournament. Ken and Sean both enter the US martial arts tournament in 3s. This takes place after the WW tournament which is 2i. One more thing, after the tournament, Ryu sets off to find Ken (2i ending). In 3s he finally fights him after travelling across the country (he starts off in Oakland, CA and ends up in NY). He also fought Alex while he was in NY. We've been through the Zero discussion, so if you don't want to trust it, then it's your prerogative. However, you do raise a good point, it would be nice if Capcom brought back a Zero character or two for the next SF. That way there wouldn't be any question to its validity. By the way, there are some references to Dan in 2i. -Clay Saiki: Since Sean lost to Ken, does this mean that he has never met Ryu? Also, did Gouki enter the tournament? Outside of Gill and Oro, there isn't really anybody who has a chance at defeating him. With Ryu out of the tournament and Oro stepping down, how did Ken not win it? Posted by goukigirl2002 on 11:22:2001 10:23 PM: does anyone know how old gen is?, cause along time ago when i use to search on geocities i found some web page that was titled "street fighter timeline" and it said that gen was born in 1945 and they said it was march or april, i tried to go to it but it said it was not found on geocities.but is that true gen was born in 1945? Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:23:2001 01:29 AM: CvSNK2 I have been reading this thread, havent said anything yet, but have been reading it for a while...I agree with Everything Ultima has said thus far, including that about the kanji on the gi, alot of people get that wrong on Akuma Akuma the word means vengeful spirit, I had to track that one down..hehe.. If anyone has wanted to know about the balls around Gouki's neck, its interesting in that they are enlarged Mala Beads..or prayer beads..they are used for mediation and such... but here is my question..I recently beat CVSnk 2 and I am trying to place it in the SF storyline...I keep placing it BEFORE Street Fighter 3, because Gouki does not have the White hair until SF 3, and also are we too assume from the ending of CVSNK 2 ****SPOILER**** that it sounds like Rugal Made Shin Akuma..I dont think Shin Akuma ever existed until Rugal's part, that is the part I only really disagree with. Also in Akuma's ending, it talks about really up to the reader, about him wanting death, but then if you look back at Shin Akuma, and him "dying" then brought back by the "ghosts" who I say are the souls of the fighters he has killed, that they wont let him die..and the dying is the beginning of a new life, would make things interesting too... I subscribe to the theory that Akuma/Gouki was human UNTIL he used the ShunGatSu, and then was possessed by the demon we all know and love...which would explain his age as well... any takers? Posted by Mmeeva on 11:23:2001 04:14 AM: Re: CvSNK2 quote: Originally posted by Shin_Bishamon but here is my question..I recently beat CVSnk 2 and I am trying to place it in the SF storyline...I keep placing it BEFORE Street Fighter 3, because Gouki does not have the White hair until SF 3, and also are we too assume from the ending of CVSNK 2 Don't even try. This game is suppose to be a dream match and has nothing to do with the main storyline. Posted by Clay on 11:23:2001 06:31 AM: Right, CvS2 does not fit into the storyline at all. It's a dream match and nothing more. The Capcom and SNK worlds do not converge at any point (as far as the storyline is concerned). Enjoy the game, but don't scrutinize over it. Also, there is another problem with your theory: The thing is that Gouki is Shin Gouki; he always has been. Shin Gouki is supposed to represent how strong Gouki really is. In the SF storyline, Gouki holds back the majority of his abilities when he fights because he is simply too good for most of the competition. Shin Gouki is Gouki's TRUE form, not a powered up version of himself. Also, Gouki doesn't have white hair in SF3, just a few orangish streaks. I'm not sure just how old Gouki really is, but I'm guessing that he is approximately 50+ years of age during SF3. He is Gouken's younger brother. Nice theory though. -Clay goukigirl: No official birthdate has been listed for Gen that I know of. He looks to be in the neighborhood of 50-60+ years. Does anybody else have any info? Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:23:2001 09:40 AM: But...but...but... But...but...but...*points to the drawings of Akuma in Street Fighter: 3rd strike, the offical capcom drawings. That is white hair is it not? http://www.geocities.com/zeroalphaex/profiles/akuma.gif On LiquidFist's page, he has some offical art, and it shows Gouki with white hair on it...? Posted by Golden Hell on 11:23:2001 01:16 PM: Hey guys I just saw that TiamatRoar's faq was put up on gamefaqs. Just wanted to say thanks and give a big thumbs-up to everybody who contributed here. And just to reiterate, CvS2 (and any "Versus" game, for that matter) is not included in any official storyline. I mean, seriously, how are you gonna explain characters like Haohmaru and Hibiki, who existed during feudal Japan (unless you start talking time machines - ugh). Also, Rock Howard would be like 10 years old during this time. Not to mention that Sakura would be a lady in her late 20s who still likes to wear school girl uniforms (I guess you can say she's a little freaky/kinky ). Just take it as it is - a dream match. Posted by Clay on 11:23:2001 04:13 PM: Yeah, I saw the FAQ last night, it looks really good. Congratulations to Tiamat and everybody who helped contribute information. Hopefully, people will trust the info and finally figure out what's going on. Anyway, I've never seen any Gouki artwork from 3s that gave him white hair. In 3s he still has red hair with some orange streaks, even in both of his SF3 endings, he still has red hair. Gouki has a couple of costume colors that give him white hair, but that is all. I guess if his endings show him with red hair, then I'm going to say that he still has red hair. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:23:2001 06:39 PM: It's a really good FAQ. Thanks, everyone, for all of this discussion so that we could make up the thing^^ It still needs more updating though, LOL. There's some stuff in this thread that came up recently after the FAQ got posted that I still need to add But I'm home for Thanksgiving now and most of the FAQ files are on my other comp and I'm too lazy to go get to it right now. Which is probably just fine since there'll probably be more info that everyone comes up with that will need to be added by the time Thanksgiving weekend is over. I should probably start making an SF story FAQ in its entirety... though that SFA story FAQ over there already has hit like... 230kb or something Ah... I can't say much about Akuma/Gouki here, myself, since I've never been that good at tracking down info regarding him. But yea, VS games are never canon. Capcom sometimes uses them to slightly reiterate plot points in a twisted fashion but usually retroactively changes them to the real thing later on. An example is Psylocke saving Shadowlaw Cammy who then gets Amnesia in XMen vs Street Fighter (which couldn't really happen since Psylocke doesn't exist in the SF universe. She exists in the Marvel universe. The theme is still there, though), then in SFA3 it's shown that Vega was the one that actually saved her. Erm... yea. In general, though, VS game endings are there mostly just for what-if twisted versions of things, or just for fun. Or corniness. Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:23:2001 09:09 PM: Okay Okay Does anyone here have the Resaurus Street Fighter Akuma figures based from SF 3rd Strike...I have one here..even it has streaks of white hair in the figure...I think thats what I missed saying...not white hair all over..but streaks of white hair, he still has the orange/red hair, but just streaks of it... I think it looks cool...I just shudder to think when akuma gets old enough his hair falls out. Posted by goukigirl2002 on 11:23:2001 10:13 PM: well i think gouki does have white streaks in his hair cause endings are not only the answer! examples, akuma on 3rd strike/second impact on both of his endings they do not have white streaks but did you also notice that he has no sandals on ether,and same goes for gouki in cvs ending, even though he has sandals and white streaks on the same game your playing he doesn't on the endings. so i say maybe endings can leave out some details with gouki sometimes.so that is why i believe he has streaks like in the art. Posted by Azrael-sama on 11:24:2001 02:07 AM: The FAQ is awesome Tiamat. Wow, that's a lot of information. But you left out the best part - the explanation of 'Gief's dislikes... -Az Posted by shin-ryu-long on 11:24:2001 02:09 AM: did ryu's parents die, or did they just sell him or something? Posted by Lantis on 11:24:2001 03:31 AM: You've got a long way before ANYONE can beat my 511 KB KOF story FAQ, so there! But wait...my old SF story FAQ was all but demolished (only has 147 KB)! *starts looking for methods to blow up his story FAQs a couple of hundred KB* Posted by Clay on 11:24:2001 04:29 AM: Hey, I've been saying that he had streaks in his hair the whole time, but I wouldn't say white. In all of the pictures that I've seen, it looks more orange-ish or sand colored. Anyway, way to big of a deal is being made of this. Somebody had said that Gouki had white hair and I was just pointing out that while some "greying" had occured, his hair still retained most of its color. Hail Lantis!! King of the Story Faq!!!! Still, the SF Faq is very well done. Lantis, I haven't seen your FAQ in a while, but have updated it recently? Will you be adding information though 2001 on it any time soon? Just curious. -Clay Posted by Lantis on 11:24:2001 05:33 AM: About time I got the respect I deserved! J/K! Ummm...well, to be completely honest, that's why people like Saiki exist: they can do a better job on explaining the whole SF story mess. He's got the touch. I can tell. He will be the heir to my SF story FAQ throne! But still, I guess I'll keep my old SF story FAQ as my VERY first story FAQ ever wrote... Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:25:2001 01:01 AM: Q AWESOME FAQ Tiamat, def a bookmark here..hehe.. I wish someone would make faqs based on just the characters themselves. I am going to work on a Akuma/Gouki FAQ tonite, and post it here and see what everyone thinks..feel free to critique..hehe Posted by Berias on 11:25:2001 02:40 AM: So if 3rd strike wasn't the tournament, what was it? A phantom game like the vs series, or actual storyline? Saki, where did you find out what did and didn't happen? Posted by Saiki on 11:25:2001 07:45 AM: 3rd Strike is just everyone just going about their own business. It's still a part of the actual story. Most of the characters shouldn't even fight Gill. Notice how over half the characters don't even have any pre-fight dialogue with Gill. That's because the previous character is suppossed to be the last. I'll just assume you're asking what my sources of info are. Here's my list of sources, All about Capcom Fighting Games 1987~2000 All About Street Fighter Zero 3 Official Street Fighter 2 Fanbook Official Street Fighter Zero 3 Fanbook and my friend working in Capcom(no, she's not a high up programmer or artist or anything like that. Although it's enough for me to have her confirm stuff for me) That's pretty much all my sources. Most of it the info is in A.A.C.F.G. 1987~2000. But small bits and pieces are listed in the other three. Like how Sagat defeated Nuah Kahn, or how Blanka got his name. Posted by Siegfried on 11:25:2001 03:25 PM: Did I mention that Tiamat's FAQ is up at Fighter Mania now? Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:25:2001 04:23 PM: books. saiki where did you find those books? Is there a website I can go to and order them? I need to make out my christmas list Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:26:2001 12:52 AM: the Islands.. I want to put up some information also in the FAQ on the Island as well as descriptions of the stages that Gouki fights on.. does anyone have any pictures or information on them, esp the one from SFA 3.. Posted by FistsofFury on 11:26:2001 02:53 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki small bits and pieces are listed in the other three. Like how Sagat defeated Nuah Kahn, or how Blanka got his name. Who's that Nuah Kahn guy? Also someone explain this to me: http://www.geocities.com/lonelyotakus/Syoungsagat.jpg I think it's a pic of Sagat, but from when? It looks like his eye has just been blinded, but from who?? I keep hearing Go Hibiki did it, so it that Go lying on the ground? I'm seriously thinking about doing a Sagat fic...need as much info on the guy as possible Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:26:2001 05:12 AM: Yep. Yeh thats Sagat, and that is Dan's Dad on the ground..Dan's Dad was the one that did it..the story goes is that Sagat's eye had always been a weakness....he fought the guy and was getting beaten because he was guarding it and the guy was taking advantage..so Sagat stopped protecting it..he lost the eye..but won the match and wiped out Dan's dad. Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:26:2001 05:25 AM: Nuah Kahn was the previous God of Muy Thai that Sagat beat in order to become God/Emperor of Muy Thai, himself. ^^ Posted by Clay on 11:26:2001 07:22 PM: Yeah, Nuah Kahn is pre-SF. After Sagat defeated him he became the Muay Thai God. Later he took on Adon as his student and formed the first World Warriors Tournament. Sagat is basically responsible for creating SF. Also, Sagat didn't mean to kill Go, it was just that after his eye was taken out, he was so filled with rage that he exploded on him. It was more of an accident. Sagat used to have a problem controlling himself, but it is cool to see how he has matured throughout the Zero series. Sagat has always been one of my favorite characters, so FoF, if you write a Sagat fic I'd really like to see it. -Clay Posted by Berias on 11:26:2001 09:17 PM: Given the true storyline, what the hell was Sagat doing in SF2? Don't say "revenge against Ryu!" because by then he didn't care. I even heard he gave up fighting (still should have been in sf 3!). So what was was he doing? Don't write fanfiction. All fanfiction is awful crap. Posted by Clay on 11:26:2001 09:49 PM: I still haven't been able to figure out what happened exactly in SF2 with regards to Sagat. He could have been there to fight Ryu, but maybe he entered the tournament to test himself. Vega may have invited him as well, considering that Sagat turned on him in Zero, he may have wanted revenge on Sagat as well as Chun, Guile, Ryu... etc. Either way, Sagat is a fighter, so it only make sense that he would enter a major tournament, especially one that he helped create. Maybe Saiki knows some of the details as to what happened during the second World Warriors Tournament. I also wish that Sagat made an SF3 appearance. Here's to hoping that he's in the next game. -Clay By the way, 500th post! Woo-Hoo!! Posted by Clay on 11:26:2001 10:03 PM: quote: Don't write fanfiction. Ummmm... FoF has been writing Fanfics for a while, so telling him not to now isn't really going to change anything. Any way, if a person has a gift for writing, then what's wrong with them displaying it. Even if an author makes some mistakes, you can still enjoy their writing style. quote: All fanfiction is awful crap. Not true. If you want to read a very well written fic, then I suggest the SF vs. Kof fiction written by South (Blaine). You can tell that the man has talent. I would hardly consider his work awful crap. Don't be so quick to judge (as well as so closed minded). As long as we are on the topic of Fanfics, I just wanted to add that I enjoyed reading Chapter 8 of FoF's fic. Ryu vs. Sagat is one of my favorite matches; he handled it with the dignity and class that it deserved. Just my $0.02 -Clay Posted by Siegfried on 11:26:2001 10:49 PM: I've read some good fanfics, but it's hard to track them down right now. UVR1-3 are available at Fighter Mania, but there are some other oldies I've lost. There was this KoF vs SF where Terry (or was it Kyo?) fought Dan. I don't think I read to the end of it. Also, there was a huge SF2-3 fanfic that explained what (might have) happened up to the fights with Gill. E.Honda, thinking about his feelings for Chun-Li (awwwww!) was killed in the beginning, and I seem to remember a horribly beat up Ken towards the end. Also, I think Ryu set off an attack similar to a nuke. This was one of the best, but I still have to place UVR above the rest. They basically inspired me to create FM. Hopefully the next episode will be finished soon - Geese and Yamazaki are in the ring together with many other guys. With any luck we'll get rid of both Captain America and Kirby too. Posted by Ultima on 11:27:2001 12:19 AM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried This was one of the best, but I still have to place UVR above the rest. They basically inspired me to create FM. Hopefully the next episode will be finished soon - Geese and Yamazaki are in the ring together with many other guys. With any luck we'll get rid of both Captain America and Kirby too. HELL NO. I'm rooting for Kirby to take out as many fighters as possible. Kirby's too awesome. And I'm rooting for Cap all the way (since Mags and Ryu are gone). BTW, the writer of UVR3 (Gavok) goes to my school. For anyone who's interested, both of us frequent this message board, known as the Ballad of Shame and Wasted Lives: http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/goto?forumid=15388 Wanderer, who wrote the last few chapters of UVR2 and the first 8 or 9 chapters of UVR3, can also be found here. There's also another ongoing vote-fic know as the New Attitude Fighting League (NAFL), who Gavok writes for as well. You can find links on the Ballad. They just finished week 3. Good stuff. Think of it as the new Multiverse Fighters Council (MVFC). Speaking of the MVFC, I think one of us is trying to put up an MVFC archive by retrieving old files from google. Ah, the memories, when Hoahmaru vs. Ryu and Morrigan vs. Nakoruru were LEGENDARY events, not an actual ordinary match-up in a game. Posted by Berias on 11:27:2001 12:57 AM: Clay wrote "Ummmm... FoF has been writing Fanfics for a while, so telling him not to now isn't really going to change anything. Any way, if a person has a gift for writing, then what's wrong with them displaying it. Even if an author makes some mistakes, you can still enjoy their writing style. " By that logic, telling me this was also useless. I think you're taking it too seriously. It's my "pet peeve" (something that irritates you). And I didn't just mean FoF, I mean everyone should not write it "Not true. If you want to read a very well written fic, then I suggest the SF vs. Kof fiction written by South (Blaine)." No thanks! He may be great, but it's not my poison. "Don't be so quick to judge (as well as so closed minded)." Whoah buddy! I've read my share of that stuff and have since been reformed. And just because someone strongly dislikes something doesn't make them close minded. Remember that! Sieg wrote "...a horribly beat up Ken towards the end. Also, I think Ryu set off an attack similar to a nuke." Hehe, see what I mean? How can you seriously enjoy that? Using the power of his Kamehadoken, Holy Ryu vaporized the Evil Sagakuma-Oorochi the 8th, bringing peace to his wife Guile and their 16 kids. MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU Posted by Clay on 11:27:2001 02:26 AM: Berias: No problem, I was just trying to smooth things over. Some of your posts have the tendency to come off as overly harsh or irritating (like calling things awful crap). Usually it isn't a very good idea to trash things without giving any backing. Anyway, sorry if I got on your case too much. Actually, I'm not that big of a fan of Fanfics either. Few is the number of Fanfics that I actually read, let alone stomach. Usually, things get twisted around and become nonsensical. I brought that one example up because it is very well written and the author doesn't take too many liberties with the stories or exaggerate things. As for other fics, they're all done in good fun so lets just leave it at that. -Clay Posted by reignard on 11:27:2001 04:05 AM: well with all the canon/non-canon stuff being discussed i was wondering about all the manga relating to the sf storyline. which sf manga had the closest plot relating to sf? i understand that some of those stories actually helped define the current storyline and i was curious as to which manga they were. can anyone recount the events that happened in the ryu final manga? i can't seem to find it. Posted by Siegfried on 11:27:2001 09:43 AM: Well duh, everything was more or less accurate in that fanfic. He just had to end it in a spectacular way. I've quite sure it was "just" a Shinkuu Hadoken. Isn't there anyone who has it? Otherwise I might have to (urgh) venture into the depths of my 5-year-old HDD folders... Then again, Terry's Power Geyser destroys an entire building in the FF Movie and noone complains. Not to mention Ryu and Ken's combined Hadoken. It's called Dramatic Damage Scaling (TM). Posted by FistsofFury on 11:27:2001 11:59 AM: I read Ryu Final..a while ago. What happened was Akuma and Ryu fought, and Ryu I think blasted a hole through Akuma's stomach with a Shinku, and Akuma did something else to Ryu (I forgot), and they both died....... More Sagat questions: When did he begin his training, and who trained him?? At what age did he beat Nuah Kahn?? Exactly when is his birth date...I keep hearing 1945 or 1955.... Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:27:2001 05:18 PM: I believe Sagat was a teenager when he beat Nuah Kahn^^ Not sure of the exact age... 19 seems about right, though. When you talk about manga and anime that inspired the SF storyline, I can think about a couple of things. Note that NONE of these are actually canon in and of themselves, though they did inspire stuff in the actual canon. Sakura Ganburu: Introduced Karin. Capcom liked Karin so much that they made her official. Also probably inspired the Sakura Dan student teacher relationship. Street Fighter: The Animated Movie: Inspired Capcom to make the Street Fighter Alpha series, and is why the SFA graphic style is so anime-ish. Cammy History: This probably inspired Capcom to make Cammy's past and to make the twelve Dolls. Battle Angel Alita: This character inspired Cammy in general. And... erm, is not a Street Fighter manga series but whatever:P Hmm... that's all I can think of right now. Fanfic plugging!!!! I'd plug my own, but unless you were an actual member of the RPG that I write it within, you probably wouldn't understand it. ^^ Or be able to get into it if you're the type that likes lots of canon characters coming together. Or canon in general, even. :P That and the first chapters really suck since I wrote them 2 years ago when I was a writing newbie... Posted by Clay on 11:27:2001 05:42 PM: Tiamat took the words right out of my mouth. I was just about to post the exact same thing, but he beat me to the punch. I'd like to add that I've heard that most of the pre-fight intros from SF3 are very similar to the SF3 mangas, almost identical. Also, Duo and Trow... I mean Yun and Yang seem to have been the product of outside anime influences as well (much like Cammy). It's amazing how many things the Zero/Alpha series actually borrowed from SF2:TAM. It's to the point where SF2:TAM ends up being a better Zero/Alpha movie than the actual one could ever hope to be. FoF: Sagat's birthdate- July 2, 1955 Oh yeah, remember that Saiki posted up all the character bios on page 14. You can just check there if you ever need any character birthdates or info. Tiamat's Faq also has loads of information as well. I think that Sagat may have been self taught, I don't seem to be able to think of any masters ever being mentioned. Sorry Sieg, I'm not familiar with the story that you had mentioned. -Clay Posted by Zen Master on 11:27:2001 06:21 PM: I have a question, can someone break down the true storylines and encounters in The SF3 series? I love the games and I really don't understand what the hell is going on. Who is Gill? Is Alex the true new main character? Why is he so strong? Did Ryu beat him? Please someone give me a guide or FAQ for SF3. And another question, why isn't this topic a sticky yet? Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:27:2001 06:22 PM: I also think that the anime's have given the characters a bigger audience as well, as in those who really didnt know who the SF fighters were... ((if there are such people )) and helped broaden the audience. I thought though that the SF alpha movie did more for the SF legend than the first one...but I think the SF animated movie did a good bit as well.. hehe Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:27:2001 06:30 PM: I dont know the entire thing behind Alex, but I am pretty sure he was supposed to be the next main character, because I think people were getting tired of RYU and KEN...I could be wrong.. as for GILL, he didnt really have a story until you started putting the pieces together in 2nd Impact and 3rd Strike. He had a brother of a sort in Urien, and he seems to be the leader of a cult of some kind. He is supposed to be godlike using equal parts of fire and ice. He was created, just like urien..or so they hint at.. thats about all I have been able to get together from him..ussually I am laughing too hard at him.. Posted by FistsofFury on 11:27:2001 07:00 PM: quote: Originally posted by Lantis You've got a long way before ANYONE can beat my 511 KB KOF story FAQ, so there! But wait...my old SF story FAQ was all but demolished (only has 147 KB)! *starts looking for methods to blow up his story FAQs a couple of hundred KB* Yeah I read your KOF FAQ..when was the last time you updated it??? Last time I saw it you updated it last about a year ago. Where's your SF FAQ??? I wanna see it Posted by RubyHeart4ever on 11:27:2001 07:14 PM: I've been somewhat keeping up with this topic since I'm a relative newbie to SF (I seriously started playing it in 2001 after many years of MK). Tiamat, I just wanted to say that the FAQ is outstanding. It makes things alot more sensical when you actually take the time to write and plan it out, unlike a certain company we know *ahem* Capcom of America *ahem*. I know others contributed to the above mentioned FAQ and I wanted to thank you guys too. Also, thanks for having this thread up and running with good info. I would have never known about the FAQ if I hadn't read about it here first. Rubes Posted by Clay on 11:27:2001 07:53 PM: quote: Originally posted by Zen Master I have a question, can someone break down the true storylines and encounters in The SF3 series? I love the games and I really don't understand what the hell is going on. Who is Gill? Is Alex the true new main character? Why is he so strong? Did Ryu beat him? Please someone give me a guide or FAQ for SF3. And another question, why isn't this topic a sticky yet? We've discussed some of this stuff before, but I'll touch on some of it again. For more info on Gill and the context that he should be viewed in look up some of the old pages in this thread. Ultima and I made a few posts about Gill back in pages 2-3 and possibly 4. Also, Lantis and I reiterated some of it a little afterwards when I brought up the subject of the SF3 cast (pages 5-6). If you have any specific questions, then feel free to ask. Alex was created as the main character of SF3 as well as the champion of the 3rd World Warriors Tournament. Ryu and Ken were not initially designed to be in the games, I guess that Capcom wanted a fresh start. However, because the demand for those two was so great, they brought them back (who says that Capcom doesn't listen to the fans?). Alex really isn’t uber-powerful or anything, but he is a pretty good fighter. He won the tourney on a combination of skill, luck, and timing. His biggest obstacles would have been Gill, Gouki, Oro, Ryu, and Ken. Outside of them, everybody else seems to be on a fairly even tier (Urien is the exception, but I still consider him to be beatable). Alex can probably take out any of the other fighters on any given day. Gouki wasn’t entered in the tournament, so Alex dodged a bullet there. Ryu was defeated by Oro (thanks Saiki) and then Oro dropped out of the tournament (presumably to find Ryu). Oro was supposed to fight Alex, but since he dropped out, Alex got a free win. I’m not really sure what happened to Ken, but he may have dropped out after Ryu lost and he (Ken) beat Sean. As for Gill, he doesn’t want to kill Alex, he’s actually interested in him. Alex seems to have some hidden potential and may even be related to Gill (see Gill’s 3s ending). Gill probably attacked Tom (Alex’s mentor and motivation for fighting) as a means of provoking Alex to enter the tournament. Gill seems to have some plans for Alex as well, so letting him win may have been part of his plan. Perhaps he just wanted to gauge how strong Alex was currently. After Ryu loses to Oro, he travels to America. Of course, being Ryu, he uses his loss to motivate him to become even stronger, after seeing what Oro is capable of, but for the time being, he had more pressing matters. He seeks out Ken so that they have another match. He travels across the country (starting in Oakland) and finally meets Ken in NY. My guess is that Ken is in NY to enter the US Martial Arts Championship, which he wins (see 3s ending). Ryu wins his match with Ken, but also has a fight with Alex while he was in NY. Ryu also wins this and encourages Alex to keep on fighting. With the weight of vengeance off of Alex’s back, he is now excited about fighting and searches the world for Ryu and other challengers (3s ending). This shows that while Alex did win the WW Tournament, there are still many people out there who are stronger than him. If you want to see some of the win quotes, intros, and endings for the SF3 series then Lantis made a few faqs that are posted at gamefaqs.com. They are very thorough and even though they are based off of the US version still very accurate (SF3 was Cap USA’s best translation yet, though that isn’t saying too much). Check under the Dreamcast heading for SF3: DI (NG and 2i) and SF3: 3s. Ruby: Awwww... shucks. Just glad you like the thread. Note: I don't know why this thread was never made a sticky, but it seems to have survived pretty well without it. As long as people are interested in it (and can stand my babbling), I'll stick around. -Clay Posted by FistsofFury on 11:27:2001 08:03 PM: Okay, to avoid saying things over, I'm gonnna make a table on contents on the first post of mine...cool?? Okay, I've gotten up to Page 11 with the table of contents....0_o....I'll finish it later. Posted by Azrael-sama on 11:28:2001 05:59 AM: quote: Originally posted by Clay Also, Duo and Trow... I mean Yun and Yang seem to have been the product of outside anime influences as well (much like Cammy) LOL! Think of come of it, Yang does have that gravity-defying Trowa hairstyle. Man, you could put an eye out with that hair... -Az Posted by FistsofFury on 11:28:2001 07:19 PM: quote: Originally posted by Azrael-sama LOL! Think of come of it, Yang does have that gravity-defying Trowa hairstyle. Man, you could put an eye out with that hair... -Az We can only imagine how much hair gel that guys runs through weekly ........ Posted by Clay on 11:28:2001 07:34 PM: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Azrael-sama LOL! Think of come of it, Yang does have that gravity-defying Trowa hairstyle. Man, you could put an eye out with that hair... -Az -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So true! FoF: Nice table of contents. Hopefully, it will help people who haven't been keeping track of the thread find what they're looking for. Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:29:2001 12:19 AM: Got this in e-mail. Should I just assume this guy sadly doesn't really know what he's talking about? That seems to be the case, because lots of his stuff seems to completely contradict... um... everything^^ I probably don't need to point out why... Hi, I'm from www.street-fighter.co.uk I just wanted to say that I liked the FAQ you wrote... There were some really good points you raised but I still think that there's a bit you missed or were confused by... To get to Ryu, in Street Fighter Alpha 2, Vega brainwashes Ken... Eventually, Ryu helps Ken brake through and they both do a double Hado-Ken and think he's gone... In Street Fighter Alpha 3, Ryu is already becoming corrupt from Akumas words, Vega uses some psycho power to make Ryu turn evil (hence the Evil Ryu alternate)... Ken finds Ryu and fights him, he wins and gives Ryu his hairband saying that it will remind him of the fight and stop him turning evil again... Sagat left Shadowloo in SFA3 after seeing what Vega done to Ryu and refused to fight Ryu (Sagat fought Ryu twice, 1st in SF1 and second in SFA2 not in A3)... As for Cammy... She was kidnapped at 16 after being beaten by Vega (hence the scar of death on her face) and was then genetically modified by one of Vegas machines... She's not quite Vegas clone but has his DNA in her... Vega thinks that his 'clones' would die without him but the truth is that they grew stronger when he lost some of his power... Also, Balrog (the Spanish ninja) trained Cammy to kill after she was brain washed... That is why he did not want Vega to kill her As for Dan and Sagat, Sagat beats Dan until Ryu jumps in and beats Sagat (second time)... Dan has been thrown away... Sagat gets up again and faces Adon but this time he fights with rage and looses... He then realises that he had become vengeful and when Dan recovers, he tells Dan that Dan won the fight giving Dan a boost... Other matters... This is in no way canon but I believe that Vega and Rose are both different parts of Donovan's soul.... In Darkstalkers, Donovan finds Anita (Rose), a young girl that does not talk and shows no emotion... Donovan is already troubled with being half Vampire (evil) and half man (good)... He eventually defeats Demitri (I think) but dies in the process... When he dies Anita finally talks (speaks for the first time) and cries (first emotion)... This is the good side of Donovan in her (good half of his soul)... The bad part of Donovan is probably in Vega (who may have been hiding in tomb thing of Donovan or something)... Its possible Oh, and if your wondering about Rose... In Street Fighter Alpha 2/3 (both), her and Chun-li join to destroy Vega... Chun-li fights Vega to distract him from Rose as she carries out a special ritual... Chun-li discovers Vega killed her father and Rose disappears/dies leaving Vega weaker... Guy is on the scene because he also teamed up with Chun-li and had connections with Rose... He carries Rose off Vega may have entered Charlies body and found a way to escape the explosion... This may explain why Vega doesn't kill Guile when he has the chance in Street Fighter 2... Mohammed Ali PS. Street Fighter Animated captivated part of the true Street Fighter storyline but in an incorrect order Also, read the official Street Fighter II comic for the storyline of SF2... Any questions, I can help... There's little I don't know about the SF storyline and I know the fight orders for SF1 SFA series and SF2 (not 100% official mind)... Hrm... I just replied with this: >Hi, I'm from www.street-fighter.co.uk Hiya^^ > >I just wanted to say that I liked the FAQ you wrote... Thanks^^ > >There were some really good points you raised but I still think that there's a bit you missed or were confused by... > I'm sorry, but before I can begin accepting info, I need to know the sources for these things^^ Be they from the game (and even that's really sketchy) or from an official Japanese Capcom book such as All About Capcom. Much of this contradicts trusted info taken directly from official books and I see currently no proof in-game or out that any of these things are true, unless I'm missing something^^ Noting that absolutely no mangas or anime counts as canon. Erm... nevermind the fact that his webpage lists some of the strangest things, including how Lee is both Yun&Yang's and Chunli's father It does have a really interesting pic of Chunli training with a younger Gen though that I wonder if it's an official pic or not. http://www.street-fighter.co.uk/bio/lee/lee.html Posted by FistsofFury on 11:29:2001 01:08 AM: It says in there that Lee trained FEI-LONG!!!! I've seen that young Gen and Chun-LI pic, the quality is MUCH better the one I saw (and saved on my C drive ), the same artist drew the Sagat pic I poster earlier, they are in the same style...I think it's good, I'll post the version I have when I find it..first I have to wade through my stolen picture collection.. It also says that Lee is the father of Chun-Li & Yun/Yang (I actually heard Lee was the father of Yun/Yang, but Chun-Li...I doubt it), making Chun-LI & Yun/Yang siblings.... sounds to me like he's pulling it out of his ass, he's making stuff up IMHO... GO HIBKIhttp://www.street-fighter.co.uk/fighters/go.gif I'm checking out his page now....the guy's trying I'll say that...but it feels unpolished... Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:29:2001 01:24 AM: umm... I think I know which comic he is talking about...it was put out by topps I think...I could be wrong.. it was stopped because of the way the artists were doing the license...really twisted too.. ken is scalped and killed in it.. funky crap... you handled it alot better than I would have..heh.. Posted by Clay on 11:29:2001 01:27 AM: Well, it certainly is… different. Actually, I can see how some of his ideas were extrapolated, but it seems like other parts are either contradictory or have little backing. I would like to know where he gets his information from, because I am not familiar with some of it. On the other hand, I’m always open to new ideas, because a lot of the story doesn’t seem to be written in stone. Keep in mind that even if his version is different, there may be parts of it that are true, can’t say for sure. Saiki is really the only one that I trust when it comes to new information and that’s because he cites where it’s coming from (generally CoJ). Some stuff that bothers me: Ken gave Ryu the headband before Psycho Ryu ever came into existence. It isn’t meant to remind Ryu to not turn evil, it was a form of encouragement, meant to help Ryu stay focused. Ken could see that Ryu had been distracted during the fight. It was also a sign of their eternal friendship and rivalry. Why doesn’t Sagat fight Ryu in Z3? It makes more sense that they meet there rather than in Z2. I don’t think that Ryu was corrupted by Gouki’s words, I would say that it was more like shaken. He may doubt himself after hearing about the “Killing Intent” (Rose’s warning wouldn’t help either) and may be afraid of losing control. Since when did Ryu intervene in Dan’s match with Sagat? Also, both of Sagat’s endings point towards Sagat winning the second match. Last, I don’t think that Sagat would be able to “just get up” after a match with Ryu and then take on Adon. I’m pretty sure that it has been proven that Cammy was not kidnapped. I don’t think that she even has a place of birth listed for her any longer. Don’t know about the Donovan thing, but I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; I don’t know enough about the Vampire series to make a comment. I’ve never seen Rose and Chun work together before. Do they even have any interaction in the games? I’d think twice before citing a comic book as official. Usually they aren’t official. I’m pretty (definitely) sure that Gen and Lee aren’t related. I think that that was made up by good ol’ Cap USA. Also, Gouki wasn’t tracking down Gen, it was Gen that wanted to find him. Remember, Gouki pulled back after he discovered that Gen wasn’t totally healthy. Never mentioned Gen’s illness as well. Yeah, I’ve seen that Chun-Gen picture before, I think it’s pretty cool (think it’s official as well). I believe that Chun’s crouching roundhouse was taught to her by Gen. One thing that I’m still foggy on is whether Psycho Ken actually existed or not. Actually, I just mentioned this subject to Saiki earlier today and I’m waiting for his reply. -Clay PS I just saw the Go gif that FoF posted. Is that supposed to be real? Either way, it's hilarious. God forbid any SF'er to ever look that rediculous; unless, of course they're supposed be inhuman. Thinks of Necro, Oro, Blanka, Twelve...etc. The list goes on and on. Posted by Zen Master on 11:29:2001 03:06 AM: Thanks for clearing all that up Clay. I was really confused about how Ryu had beaten Alex, if Alex he had won the tournament. One last question, who truely defeats Gill at the end of 3rd Strike? I mean if the events in 3rd Strike were not a tournament, than what happened to Gill after 2nd Impact(New Generation)? Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:29:2001 05:00 AM: That gif of Go Hibiki is a fanmade one based off of Go's joke appearance in Pocket Fighter, which is a parody of Takuma of Art of Fighting and his Tengu mask. ^^ Posted by Clay on 11:29:2001 01:43 PM: Tiamat- I knew that it was fan-made. I was more or less joking and asking if the fan who made it was serious about it. I hope he doesn't think that Go actually looks like that. I've seen Pocket Fighter's rendition of Go, it's pretty funny. I believe that Dan has a super combo where Go steps in and shoots a vs. game-like beam from his nose. That and a shun goku-satsu rip off as well. About the SF3 storyline, it sort of ends open ended like that. Nothing really happens to Gill that has been released by Capcom, so as far as we know, he's still at large. Gill hasn't really launched any nefarious schemes or anything, so it's not like Capcom has been forced to have a character defeat him or kill him off. Maybe Gill will be a returning character in the next SF. I can think of a few good storylines already, and he doesn't even have to be the boss. Gill isn't really a villain in the true sense of the word (like Vega). He may even have contact with the "good guys" in the next game. At this point, he's a wild card and can really be used for anything. All I can say is that 2i is the end of the tournament which Alex won. 3s is the aftermath of the tourney and still counts towards the story. It's kind of like Zero/Alpha, it fleshes out the story a little bit, but does not involve a tournament. Oh yeah, Saiki confirmed that Psycho Ken never existed, so that's another problem with that guys e-mail. I wanted to compliment you (Tiamat) on your response to him, I liked how you kept it professional. Perhaps you should give him a link to this thread (even though it was mentioned in the Faq). Then again, he might not agree with us anyway. Whatever. -Clay Posted by Golden Hell on 11:29:2001 02:37 PM: I was just going thru that guy's website (www.street-fighter.co.uk) and its pretty clear that most of it is not official. It looks like a lot of stuff was taken from Capcom USA's rendition of the storyline (He still called Ryu and Ken's style Shotokan and Lee and Gen being related for example). But what really proved that the info was not canon (at least for me) was when reading thru Joe's bio. He wrote that Joe went to the military and trained under....William Guile! WILLIAM?! Taking info from Van Damme's SF movie and believing it is correct really isn't the way to go. On a totally different note, I'm kind of glad that Capcom hasn't released any official info claiming SF and Darkstalkers exist in the same world/universe (at least as far as I know). Personally, I just don't like that idea. SF seems to be a little more serious, while DS is comical. I just don't want to see Ryu going thru one of his travels and meeting Sasquatch while little snowmen dance around. Or having Cammy fight an ancient mummy who transforms her into some small creature (with pigtails of course!). It just doesn't seem right. Maybe its just me. Alright, end of rant. Carry on. Posted by P33K@J3W on 11:29:2001 05:03 PM: I read your FAQ (claps) I was hoping someone had some backstory on Eagle or Any Info on how Rival Schools Ties it (Heard it was same Universe...) BTW MAKE THIS THREAD STICKY! Posted by Siegfried on 11:29:2001 08:23 PM: A little problem here. The guys at GameFAQs refuse to believe that Poison is a man - even when faced with the FAQ and Saiki's translations. Now they're taking up Cammy's heritage as well, "surely the British babe can't be a clone of Bison"... what do I do? Posted by P33K@J3W on 11:29:2001 08:34 PM: Also I wanted to know who you think has the worst story... Dee-Jay Fei-Long or Dudley. Posted by Saiki on 11:29:2001 11:52 PM: This guy just seems mis-informed. It seems like alot of his info is from Capcom USA and some parts I've never even heard of. And regarding his Donovan = Vega, Rose thing, errr I can't see how that possible. Mainly because Donovan hasn't died yet. And Donovan didn't defeat Demitri. Also considering how Vampire/Darkstalkers 1 happenned in 1983(Donovan and Anita's first appearnce) and Vampire Savior happenned in 1999. It wouldn'e be possible for Vega and Rose to be Donovan. I think what really made me say,"K this guy doesn't know much" when I was going through his site was when I got into Retsu bio. It stated his fighting style as Muay Thai!!!!! And I really doubt his source of info. Especially at the end where he says he knows the fight order for SF1, SFA, SF2 but then says not 100% official at the same time. Makes me wonder........ Seigfried It amazes me how much people won't accept the truth about the storyline when it comes to female characters. Oh yeah, I found more proof that Capcom has made Cammy a clone of Vega. SF2 Revival released on the gameboy prooves this. Almost everyone has the same ending from SSF2X except for Cammy and Mike Bison. Bison doesn't become this rich pimp guy but instead just screws himself over. In Cammy's ending, Vega tells her clearly that she is a clone of himself. I don't know about the US version though. But that's more proof that Cammy is a clone for the guys at gamefaqs. p33k There's not much ties with the SFer's and the RS crew. Sakura is childhood friends with Hinata and Natsu. Um, that's about it. They're in the same universe but the stories really don't cross that much. Posted by Siegfried on 11:30:2001 12:10 AM: Rival Schools can very well be in the same universe. It's not like much happens. Hyo takes over Justice High with the help of a brainwashed Raizo. Batsu, Kyosuke and Hinata come in and beat him up. Hyo becomes nice. Later Kurow turns up, and seduces Hyo to kill using his flute. Hyo becomes Devil Hyo and kills Kurow (oops). Kyosuke and guys turn up and defeat Hyo again, but now he dies. The end. All of Rival Schools takes place within one city and four (five?) schools. Hardly something that requires the attention of super hero Ryu or someone ^_^. Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:30:2001 12:15 AM: Thanks, Saiki^^ You're a lifesaver. Thanks, guys^^ The reassurances helped a lot. This guy replied and most of his sources are... ugh, the Street Fighter Animated Movie, Cammy History novel, blah blah blah... sigh. Blarg, I guess I need to re-emphasize the "There are no canon movies, mangas, animes, etc. of Street Fighter that count towards the official canon." sentence. Yea, RS takes place in the same universe but generally doesn't cross at all besides that little Sakura bit. Saiki placed it best as in between SFA2 and SFA3 (Sakura would be a good Highschool age around then) and using a little timeline logic, I've been able to place RS2 Project Justice as occurring either right before, during, or after SFA3, but it doesn't really matter since Project Justice is so ridiculously detached from the SF storyline since it doesn't even have Sakura in it. I choose DeeJay for worse storyline! ^_~ He gets it because he gets the only storyline not remotely connected to ANY other Street Fighter characters in any way for the most part. Even Fei Long at least probably had the Shadowlaw chasing him thing (I'd be surprised if DeeJay's fights vs Adon and Sagat were anything more than just noncanon filler in SFA3). Randomness: I think I'll get to converting this FAQ into a full Street Fighter storyline FAQ just for the sake of completion. Really side games like Rival Schools and Saturday Night Slam Masters will probably only get a passing mention at most, though (SNSM doesn't even have any Street Fighter characters within it, I believe, unless they made Andore a playable character in SNSM 2 but I don't think they did...) I'll update the SFA story FAQ with the latest info here then send out the latest version again later on, then get to adding in everything else so long as all the KB doesn't implode my computer or something:P About the gamefaqs people: ...bah, whatever. I've included as much proof as we could possibly dig up in the FAQ regarding Cammy. And apparently no one's willing to believe me when I say that Poison's voice in Final Fight was that of a man. Peh. Whatever. Just can't help some people. Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:30:2001 02:16 AM: I did a bad thing. I went and read then posted in that gamefaqs thread. WHY DID I DO THAT? You know, I'm actually INSULTED that some of those people thought E. Honda was a contradiction! HELLO!?!?!? E. Honda already proved the power of Sumo in SFA3 so him being in SF2 was a contradiction!? WTF?!!?!?!? Those people... ARGH! I suppose my fault was that when I wrote that faq, I assumed that people had a MODICRUM OF COMMON SENSE!!!! ....sigh. Whatever. If any of them come to shoryuken.com and read this message, I don't care. The fact that they thought that our FAQ couldn't be right because E HONDA was a contradiction shows me that there's no reasoning with them, anyway. That said, I'm not going to bother posting in that gamefaqs thread anymore. Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:30:2001 03:04 AM: So Clay, Street Fighter 3 and SF3:Second Impact are both the tournament with Alex winning it..and Ryu dropped out? Gill disappears so what do you think happened in the 3rd Strike... and where did that leave akuma.. ((need your theory so I can put it in my akuma FAQ)) Posted by Shoto-ism™ on 11:30:2001 03:10 AM: I have question; In SFA3 is that really Bison or some clone? It's a Clone, IMO. Also, why did Bison make Juli and Juni? He says for experimental purposes, but aren't they artificial or real? I wonder what he was experimenting with? heh Posted by Azrael-sama on 11:30:2001 03:54 AM: quote: Originally posted by Shoto-ism™ I have question; In SFA3 is that really Bison or some clone? It's a Clone, IMO. Also, why did Bison make Juli and Juni? He says for experimental purposes, but aren't they artificial or real? I wonder what he was experimenting with? heh SFA3 Vega/Bison was the original body. What you see in SF2 is a rebuilt body. Bison didn't make Juli and Juni, they're real. They were kidnapped, along with the rest of the dolls. Cammy was made - she was a "backup" so to speak. I believe the purpose of the 12 dolls was to be an elite fighting unit, but I'm not a big doll fan...Tiamat? -Az Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:30:2001 04:00 AM: The purpose of the Dolls most likely appears to be an elite fighting unit. Though... Chunli's quote in Juni's ending sums up what I believe Capcom wanted their purpose to be: "Why did Bison create those girls? We were never able to find out." I'm thinking that even Capcom isn't completely sure why the Dolls existed. Though yea, my guess is that they most likely were just an elite fighting unit. It's not explained very well why Bison decides to dispose of them alongside Cammy. AT ALL. He doesn't tell them "You are worthless to me now!" All he does is say "Good work. Now you can die at my command." Strange. Posted by Clay on 11:30:2001 04:37 AM: Definitely Dee Jay! Worst character/story ever!! Shin Bish: I think that you're a little mixed up. Ryu lost to Oro, it was Oro who dropped out. Saiki provided the info a couple pages ago, and I'm sure that I've repeated it as well. Alex wins the tourney, and Gill is still alive. What happens after that is very vague. I don't think that Capcom will release any more info until they have to. That means that they may not say anything else until they make the next SF based game. 3s is the aftermath of the tournament, so you see what happens to people in their everyday (or not so everyday) lives. Ryu travels to the US to track down Ken. He also fights Alex as well. Ken and Sean enter the US Martial arts tournament, which Ken wins. Alex searches the world for Ryu and other challengers. Oro starts his training again, eager to meet Ryu once again. Necro makes another escape while Elena continues her travels and heads to France. Ibuki goes back to school hoping to live a normal life... etc. Q is introduced, but we do not know much about him. Urien still seeks to dethrone his brother, and as for Gill, his ending hints at his future plans. Gill still has plans for Alex, but for what exactly I'm not sure. Like I said before, I don't think that we'll get any more specific details until the next game is released. Gouki continues his training. So far, we know that he has created two all new devastating attacks: Kongou Kokuretsu-zan and Tenshou Kaireki Jin, both impressive in their own rights. Az already answered some of the other questions, so I'll just reiterate. That was Vega, the real one, who died in Z3. He then joined with Rose temporarily so that he could have another body constructed. Also, the dolls were not made, they were kidnapped. Any experiments done on them could have been testing they're increased metabolism, enhanced bodies, or Vega's mind control. There aren't too many specifics on what was done to them that I know of. Somebody else might be able to expand upon it. I do believe that they were used as an elite team of sorts. Completing missions and gathering data on other fighters. Thanks to Saiki for the updated endings. I'm going to head over to gamefaqs simply out of curiosity's sake. I don't post over there, or at least I never have, but I'd like to see the thread. Don't become discouraged Tiamat, we'll always back you up. Also, a good point about Honda is that in Z3 he goes out to see the outside world. In SF2 he wants to prove the strength of sumo wrestling because he was disappointed to find out that it was not highly regarded in other countries. There's no contradiction at all. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:30:2001 05:00 AM: Blah. I was not very professional in that thread. But they started it by calling the FAQ ridiculous even though it's their fault for not having even HALF A BRAIN. OH MY GOSH!!! It is all an evil plot by Capcom of America that Poison's a guy! Nevermind the fact that All About Capcom is a JAPANESE book! Gasp! We are quoting this bullshit from random webpages and we don't have a source! Nevermind the fact that Siegfriend scanned and posted that page with Poison's bio from All About Capcom to the net!!! ARGH!!! Capcom's storylines don't count as canon because they're too inconsistant! Nevermind the fact that it's Capcom's storylines in the first place so they can do damn well whatever they want with THEIR own storylines as they please!!! What the HELL. .....blah. I didn't get much sleep today. Posted by Mmeeva on 11:30:2001 05:06 AM: Heh, what did you expect from the Gamefaqs board. Its full of more idiots than I can count, believe me I've had to deal with nearly all of them... Its best to ignore them, let the little children be the idiots that they are. Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:30:2001 05:07 AM: AH thanks for the clearup..I must have missed that in there somewhere.. makes for interesting theories though... Posted by Clay on 11:30:2001 05:51 AM: Read the thread --Thankfully remembers why I never posted at gamefaqs-- I like to argue about things as much as the next guy, but you can only repeat things so many times before it gets old. I guess it should be expected for some people to disagree, especially when the two versions are so very different. Blast you Cap USA!!! Anyway, I think that Saiki made a really good point in the thread. Something along the lines that if everybody had been living in Japan, then Z3 would have made sense. People were saying that Capcom had been changing things retroactively and making more inconsistencies, but the truth of the matter is that it actually explained things. Z3 didn't really change anything that CoJ had stated or hinted at, it merely filled in the gaps. The actual inconsistencies lay in the Cap USA version that has been spoon fed to everybody over here. With that in perspective, I understand why it would seem too "farfetched" for people to believe. I've been saying it from the beginning and I'll say it again blame Cap USA. As for SRK, it brings a lot a SF fans together, so you do hear a lot of different opinions. Actually, I've had a better time talking about SF here, than nearly anywhere else. I'm surprised that people have taken so well to the Japanese storyline. Usually, it's a lot harder to find common ground with people. -Clay Posted by Saiki on 11:30:2001 05:54 AM: Man, I never expected so many idiots in gamefaqs. Most of them won't accept the true SF story because of 1) I've never heard of it 2) Capcom is too inconsistent, I don't trust them 3) I'm not gullible!!!!I'm not gonna believe everything(but believes the crap that Capcom USA made up) But then it's all Capcom USA's fault for changing the story then not brining the new changes over.......... Posted by Azrael-sama on 11:30:2001 06:39 AM: It's funny when they say things like "SFA3 couldn't have happened because Charlie died in BOTH SFA and SFA2". And then when you say "That ending didn't happen" they usually respond with "You can't just pick out whatever ending is convienent to twist the storyline." THAT'S HOW IT WORKS IN ALL FIGHTING GAMES. It would be boring and unrewarding for every character to have the same ending, so every character is given an ending which relates to their own story. The hard part is finding out which endings/parts of endings happened and which didn't. Surely, no one is expected to believe that Dan or Sakura beats Vega in any game (sorry Sakura fanboys...she's strong, but not THAT strong...). But you can beat Vega in SFA/2 and get an ending for those characters...which are obviously false. Then again, you could beat it with Ryu, and get what actually happened. -Az Posted by Golden Hell on 11:30:2001 02:53 PM: I just went to that gamefaqs thread. Man. Well, you guys did your best in explaining, but some people just don't want to hear it. What's that old saying? - "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." All we were trying to do was show people (who normally don't have access to the Japanese info) Capcom's official storyline. Nothing more. But then they get all rabid. One guy says that since Capcom is so inconsistent that he doesn't trust any new info they bring out. Saiki points out that SNK does the same thing (ex. AoF characters should be 50 during the KoF tournament), but the same guy who complained about Capcom's inconsistency says its ok with SNK because they do it to a lesser degree. WTF? Inconsistency is inconsistency. Bottom line is that SNK WENT BACK and CHANGED their story (in this case, AoF characters are around the same age as everybody else). Capcom does the same thing and they are not to be trusted, but its ok for SNK to do it. Whatever. None of them offer any proof to back up their claims. Basically, they're just saying that their interpretation of the story is more correct than Capcom's. With logic like that, there really is no reason for you guys to argue with them because its gonna be a losing battle. Most of their arguments are based on hypothetical situations (what if Capcom later says Chunli is a man, etc.) while you guys are using facts. Not that the facts matter to these guys anyway. Oh well. Its strange though, when Saiki was discussing this info on that 500 post gamefaqs thread, everyone thought it was cool. But when it is discussed on shoryuken.com's msg board, its total bunk. Posted by P33K@J3W on 11:30:2001 05:37 PM: Are SFA and SFA2 are the same tounament? If so Ryu won it? SFA3 is another Tournament? If So Ryu won it? SF2 is all ONE tournament? If so Gouki won it? SF3 was 1 tournament? If so Alex won it? - PLEASE CORRECT ANY ERRORS! - Posted by P33K@J3W on 11:30:2001 05:42 PM: Forgot SF1 - it was a Tournament and Ryu won it... Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:30:2001 05:48 PM: Here, I'll give you your answers^^ SFA2 replaces SFA1. So SFA1 never happened. SFA2 was not a tournament. None of the Alpha games were. SFA2 was basically lots of people wandering around meeting others based on their agendas. Ditto with SFA3. Thus multiple people could have 'won' it, because multiple peoples' endings happened since they could win without it contradicting each other since it wasn't a tournament^^ Ditto for SFA3. SF2 was all one tournament. Capcom has never announced the winner. I lean towards Chunli, myself, due to her conversation with Urien in SF3, but that still doesn't make it confirmed. It just makes it more likely that it was Chunli than anyone else. Akuma didn't participate in the tournament I believe and just jumped in randomly at the last minute to kill Bison/Vega, but he still didn't win the tournament because he wasn't officially entered. SF3 Second Impact is the true version of the tournament, and Alex won it. SF3 third strike is the aftermath of the tournament and is not a tournament, itself and, like Alpha, is mostly people just wandering around meeting each other and filling random agendas. Now back to the gamefaqs people. ...ugh. I think everyone else realizes it by now. They like... live in their magical world of stupidity where what the official company officially states for THEIR creation isn't official for some reason. Obviously, you can't reason with people who's logic flows like that. I dunno why it's bunk on Shoryuken.com... I missed the thread so I wouldn't know. Ditto with gamefaqs. This shoryuken.com thread seems to be pretty alive, though^^ And also hit 500 posts +. Maybe it's cause the people in this thread are smart enough to trust the experts? No, probably more because the people in this thread have a semblance of common sense (which allows them to realize that the experts' stuff does fit in). Unlike how some of those gamefaqs people claimed Vega/Balrog wouldn't save Cammy because he only loves himself. WHERE THE FUCK did they come up with THAT!? When was it ever shown in games that Vega/Balrog was a selfish bastard who only cared about himself? He loves himself, sure, but it was never shown that he hated ALL other things. WTF? Oh sure, just ignore EVERYTHING that Vega does and says when you play as him in Street Fighter Alpha 3 and pull your own canon out of your rear end despite how SFA3 is the ONLY game where Vega even remotely interacts with and has dialogue with other characters so there's no other place you can pull out a personality in regards to other people for him. Dear GOD, these people are pulling their own canon out of their ASS when there's NO PROOF WHATSOEVER of it existing in games... ....why do I have a feeling that I've made that particular rant about Vega/Balrog before in this thread a long time ago? Ah well. The stupidity of some people never ceases to astound me. Posted by P33K@J3W on 11:30:2001 05:56 PM: I heard an interesting Idea and I want your Input Vega WAS killed in SFA3 (duh) Rose embodyed his soul Rose became Vega in SF2 Post why this is not true or why it is true - ect... Posted by TiamatRoar on 11:30:2001 06:00 PM: Hey P33k@j3w, just go to www.gamefaqs.com, then go to Street Fighter Alpha 3 (any system), then click on the plot guide where the author listed is Tiamat. That should answer a lot of your questions^^ Posted by P33K@J3W on 11:30:2001 06:24 PM: Read it, enjoyed it. Question: If Rose and Bison share a soul is he still around after SF2? Posted by Clay on 11:30:2001 06:33 PM: We're not really sure. Vega's soul could have been destroyed by the Shun Goku-satsu. If that's the case, then he probably won't return. However, it is possible that Rose may still be alive. If she is alive, then Vega is still probably around. Even if Rose is dead, Vega's soul may have survived. Cammy would be his next body of choice then. So while Vega may be dead, he could also still be lurking in the SF realm, waiting to return. -Clay Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:30:2001 06:39 PM: *shivers at the thought of bison coming back in cammy's outfit* ewww.... *G* just kidding. Posted by Clay on 11:30:2001 06:47 PM: Hopefully, Cammy would be a temporary body, like Rose was. More of a vessel than anything else. If Cammy was ever in another SF game, then I know that I would want to check for any clues that hint towards Vega's return. The connection is too strong to ignore. Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 11:30:2001 06:53 PM: in my opinion...I would say go with your story that Akuma killed Bison with the Shun, then I really doubt that Bison is coming back..I think Capcom has tried to show that the Shun is the end all beat all move of a sort... I also think that they brought Gill in to replace Bison, and I think he could work if they give him more story, I mean..they had a while for bison... give gill more creditabilty.. Posted by Siegfried on 11:30:2001 08:29 PM: I should give up on GameFAQs, but my friend Umgogo is normally a reasonable guy, so I'd like to straighten him out ^_^. Also, I have this strange urge of fighting for the truth and preaching what I know is right. I'm not religious, so I guess I need some substitute to argue about ^_^. That's kind of the point with Fighter Mania... Posted by P33K@J3W on 11:30:2001 09:02 PM: Personaly I have never seen Gouki defete Vega in SF2 but I do rem seeing screen shot of it - Has anyone got the shots or a vid of it? I would LOVE to see it. Posted by Berias on 12:01:2001 03:17 AM: Play Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, and don't loose any rounds. At Bison, you and the opponent stand there like every other match. Before the round starts, Gouki Shungokusatsus on to the screen from behind Bison. Bison gets killed, and stays on the ground. Then you have to fight the devil. I think if you win the credits show with Bison still on the ground (dead as a doornail). In SF3:2 impact, Gouki murders Gill in the same way if you meet the requirements. (Gill uses resurrection if you beat the game) In CvSNK 1, Gouki comes in by cutting Bison in half with the Kongoukokuretsuzan. I had a question regarding the "strongest fighters" thread, but if no one minds I'll post it here. Why does Urien's body make clanking sounds when you hit him? There are a lot of statments in 2 impact that make it seem as though his body is made out of metal in the same way Gill is fire and ice. So since Gill can make and unmake Fire and Ice, what's Urien's ability? Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:01:2001 09:43 PM: Weee, working on Street Fighter storyline FAQ. I need some reconciliations though. Did Saturday Night Slammasters take place before or after Final Fight? My instruction manual says that Haggar is the ex-mayor, but of course, that's the USA instruction manual. So is that just BS made up by Capcom of USA? Or a retroactive change? Or is Haggar really ex-mayor after... say, Final Fight 3? (Cause he was still mayor during Final Fight 3). Also, Hugo's endings for Street Fighter 3 have Haggar in them as a Saturday Night Slammaster. Should that be taken seriously as Haggar still being a wrestler? Though I don't think it reeeaaally should since Hugo's endings are all joke endings, it seems, and thus mostly those are just easter eggs... Hugo Andore was Andore Jr. in Final Fight, right? Also, is there any confirmation whether or not this is the same Andore that fights in Final Fight Revenge? They seem the same... Guy was once Jessica's boyfriend? Or did he just really like Jessica? I'm positive the latter is true, but I'm not sure about the former. ^^; Are there any statements or proof about whether or not Jessica is missing after the Alpha series? ^^; (Don't think she was ever found in Final Fight Revenge though of course that game's canonity is in question a little). I don't recall any proof that she's still around in any future Final Fight games or during Street Fighter Alpha 3, which would make Final Fight Revenge fit in a lot more, but I'm not sure... Posted by Siegfried on 12:02:2001 03:16 AM: Saiki; I assume you have All About SNK as well. Do you know what's up with the Neo Geo mascots? Their full names are Neo McDonalds and Geo Kentucky... if that isn't a fast food reference I don't know what is. Still, having both means they couldn't be sponsored. Posted by Saiki on 12:02:2001 06:41 PM: Tiamat Saturday Night Slam Masters took place before Final Fight. In AACFG, it says that Haggar was in the middle of elections and all that during Saturday Night Slam Masters. Oh yeah, I just found out that Mad Gear was totally destroyed one year before SFZ3. And Hugo's endings are just joke endings. Although it is possible for Haggar to be back in wrestling. Since his time being a Mayor ended two years after SFZ3. But I wouldn't take those endings that seriously. And about Hugo and Andore Jr, Capcom hasn't confirmed these two to be the same character. Although I'd say it's safe to assume so. Since Andore Jr. friend Poison and Hugo's manager Poison has been confirmed to be the same. And Guy was never Jessica's boyfriend or never loved Jessica either. And about Jessica, in SFZ3, it says that Cody and her broke up. And in FF Revenge, it says that Jessica has gone missing. This one, I can't really say which one but I'd say she's still sticking around somewhere and didn't go missing. Siegfried Errr, what page is this on? I took a quick look through but couldn't find them. Posted by Siegfried on 12:02:2001 07:27 PM: Page 381. Posted by Saiki on 12:02:2001 07:54 PM: LOL didn't even notice that. That's pretty funny. I have no clue why those two have names like though. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:02:2001 08:17 PM: Ah, okay, coolness. Thanks, Saiki^^ Wow, Metal Gear fell apart one year before SFZ/A3? Hmm... seems to make sense, what with Final Fight 2 crushing most of it and the efforts to revive it in SFA/Z2 and FFR not really going very far, apparently. That does make me wonder, though... Rolento still has his army in Street Fighter Alpha 3, right? Or at least, El Gado, and he's searching for weapons for his army (though of course, he's also searching for new recruits). This army is a new thing that he started up and is not affiliated with Mad Gear, right? It seems to be the case and would explain why Sodom and Rolento have had a fallout before/during Street Fighter Alpha 3 (though of course they make up in their endings). Poison was Andore Jr's friend in Final Fight? Hmm.... that would seem to clinch Hugo being Andore Jr. a lot. Oi, I'd hope that the Poison in SF3 would be the same, considering that she looks the same and has the same purple hair and police hat and the same name, though I recall that quite a few people questioned it for some strange reason. Hugo's main primary color in Street Fighter 3 is pink, I believe, which is the same color that Andore Jr. wore. Hmm.... yea, Cody's SFA3 bio doesn't quite completely contradict Jessica going missing, but I'd think that something as important as Jessica going missing would be mentioned there if it were true. Oi vey... In terms of when Capcom created the games and not in terms of storyline, Final Fight Revenge came after Final Fight 3, I'm pretty sure... I'm kinda surprised that Jessica hasn't appeared and wasn't even mentioned in Final Fight 3 or so, though she was mentioned in 2 (not that that would prove much either way since Jessica going missing apparently probably would have happened after FF2. Ack!). Yeeesh. Darn Final Fight Revenge. Many more disclaimers of it possibly not being canon, it is! Haggar finally stopped being mayor two years after SFA3? Ah, that means Final Fight 3 most likely took place in 1991 then since he's still mayor then. ^^ Final Fight One for the Gameboy Advance actually had boss dialogues. I really wish I could get my hands on what those dialogues were. *sadly does not have a gameboy advance* http://www.vgmuseum.com/images/gba/3.html http://www.vgmuseum.com/images/gba/01/93.html Wow, you can have Akuma murder Gill, too? Oo That's very strange. You can't have that happen in Third Strike, I assume? Posted by Berias on 12:02:2001 09:37 PM: No. He isn't a secret character so you fight him normally. EDIT: While looking around on this board I found some Q information. It comes from a member named FithosLusec. "The Q background is not known, so he is only "the unknown" and nothing more. As is said,the only thing sure about Q (ahh...yes, Q come from "Question", I suppose Capcom did it to made him even more mysterious) is that he was an spectator in the "Downfall" of the Shadowloo, (sorry, but I don´t known what it means, I only translate it from the book) but he was detected in a lot of different parts of the world after that." Or click here. http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...25&pagenumber=2 Posted by shin-ryu-long on 12:03:2001 12:16 AM: may i ask afew questions and say afew comments? #1: why is it so hard for some of you to figure out that the characters ages go in the order of the game? example: ryu, sf1:23.sfa2:24.sfa3:25.sf2: (94)30.sf3: new generation:32.sf3:third strike:34.#2: how come some of you guys act like it's so hard to figure out ryu's correct height and weight even though ryu was 5.7" when he was younger and"magically" grow to be 5.10" afew years later?#3:why didn't anyone answer my question about ryu's parents? i agree that capcom doesn't know what they're doing by making their characters weigh too little bit for their heights,in case anyone didn't know, capcom said ryu now weighs 175lbs. i can't see how so many of you never knew that. capcom has a bad habit of making their characters still grow at over the age of 20.well anyway great thread!! Posted by Ultima on 12:03:2001 06:22 AM: To Berias: > Why does Urien's body make clanking sounds when you hit him? There are a lot of statments in 2 impact that make it seem as though his body is made out of metal in the same way Gill is fire and ice. His body has the consistency of iron, hence the clanking noises when he blocks your attacks. > So since Gill can make and unmake Fire and Ice, what's Urien's ability? I believe it's control over Earth (represented by his earthquake taunt and his body-hardening techniques I think) and Lightning (his thunderball projectiles, his EX headbutt, and his Temporal Thunder super). Posted by Saiki on 12:03:2001 07:44 AM: Tiamat Been playing lots of Metal Gear lately? Me too Shin-ryu-long 1) you have Ryu's ages wrong...... SF1 - 23 SFZ1/2 - 24 SFZ3 - 25 SF2 - 29 SF3 - 34 SF3 3rd - 35 2) Ryu's height and weight never changed once. It was 175cm and 68kg to begin with and it still is. 3) Well, Capcom really hasn't said much about Ryu's parents. The only thing known is that Ryu's mom gave Gouken Ryu when Ryu was still a baby.(Reasons unknown) Posted by DA GAME on 12:03:2001 04:05 PM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Tiamat Been playing lots of Metal Gear lately? Me too Shin-ryu-long 1) you have Ryu's ages wrong...... SF1 - 23 SFZ1/2 - 24 SFZ3 - 25 SF2 - 29 SF3 - 34 SF3 3rd - 35 2) Ryu's height and weight never changed once. It was 175cm and 68kg to begin with and it still is. 3) Well, Capcom really hasn't said much about Ryu's parents. The only thing known is that Ryu's mom gave Gouken Ryu when Ryu was still a baby.(Reasons unknown) I read somewhere that Ryu's dad was a German businessman & his mother was Japanese. Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:03:2001 04:41 PM: Ditto DA Game..I think it was the SF rpg game master book..I started looking for it when you mentioned that..*s* ok..I want to visit the Akuma Man or Demon idea again... I was looking though some offical capcom art, note this is from CvSNK2, I am going to look for some from SF3 and see if the same changes happened.. argh..the website is down..I will post them when it gets back up..but the pictures of Akuma and Shin Akuma on there...call me crazy..but they have him with pointy ears.. how many humans that you know..have pointy ears... I go with the Demon theory. will have more evidence in a moment..hehe Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:03:2001 04:53 PM: ok..the site is back up.. http://www.gamegen.com/fightgen/characters/akuma.html check out the pictures near the bottom do they not have akuma with pointy ears? Posted by reignard on 12:03:2001 05:55 PM: you know, i was always wondering why gouki, the supposedly badass fighter who killed his mentor and brother and searches for the ultimate challenge, wears sparring gloves?! you'd think that using bare knuckles would promote development of calluses but he seems to be against it. Posted by Shoto-ism™ on 12:03:2001 06:44 PM: quote: Originally posted by Azrael-sama SFA3 Vega/Bison was the original body. What you see in SF2 is a rebuilt body. Bison didn't make Juli and Juni, they're real. They were kidnapped, along with the rest of the dolls. Cammy was made - she was a "backup" so to speak. I believe the purpose of the 12 dolls was to be an elite fighting unit, but I'm not a big doll fan...Tiamat? -Az Actually, you are so wrong. In the Juni ending he says some thing to the sort that "this is his temporary body". he says some thing similar to this in other endings as well, pertaining to a false body, not his own, fake. Also I think Juni is a clone, while Juli is the donor. In other words Juni came from Juli. In Cammy, E.Honda you see many Juni's, clones. Heh, I find it funny on how some of you are trying to explain SF storylines, like SF3. It's impossible, it has way to many gray areas. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:03:2001 06:54 PM: White Wolf is a US based company. They're the ones that made that SF RPG booklet, I think^^ They made up nearly ALL of the info there, though, so none of it is canon. quote: Originally posted by Shoto-ism™ Actually, you are so wrong. In the Juni ending he says some thing to the sort that "this is his temporary body". he says some thing similar to this in other endings as well, pertaining to a false body, not his own, fake. Also I think Juni is a clone, while Juli is the donor. In other words Juni came from Juli. In Cammy, E.Honda you see many Juni's, clones. Heh, I find it funny on how some of you are trying to explain SF storylines, like SF3. It's impossible, it has way to many gray areas. Yea, Bison may have had other bodies before SFA3. In fact, it seems to be hinted at pretty significantly. The end result though is that his SF2 body is still a new one from his old body, which I believe was Az's main point, so... close enough^^ Oi, here we go again. Nah, the Dolls are not clones. That's an official statement. No where EVER is it stated by M. Bison that the Dolls are clones (besides Cammy, who's different from the rest of the Dolls). E. Honda's ending uses many Julis and Junis (as do other endings with them) because Capcom was too lazy to make more animated frames for the rest of the Doll sprites, despite how several animated frames of said sprites do already exist. That is all. You can see all twelve of the real Dolls in Juli's and Juni's battle introduction (erm, well, all 10. Capcom was too lazy to make sprites for the last two, either). I thought by now it was common knowledge that they were kidnapped from various countries? T. Hawk's storyline was a pretty clear implication of that (side note: Multiple Julis in Cammy's ending too so Juni isn't the only one that gets multiples due to Capcom laziness). The Street Fighter overall storyline actually exists and can be explained. In fact, we've already pretty much explained it all already so I'm not going to bother to repeat that unless it's me transcribing to the FAQ. It has many grey areas, but all those areas are just minor details and the overall storyline is easy to see with a little thought when you ignore the fluffy gaiden sideline stuff. Well, official statements can help but the only real place an official statement is needed is for Bison's new body in Street Fighter 2. Posted by Shoto-ism™ on 12:03:2001 07:16 PM: Tiamat:I see. They really should redo SF2 over in general. Kinda like how Capcom is redoing Res Evi. Except they can clarify things in SF2. Posted by Clay on 12:03:2001 07:32 PM: shin-ryu-long: I think that you’re misunderstood. I kept on using all of those other measurements to show how Cap USA was contradicting itself. Saiki cleared everything up and told us that CoJ had always listed the same set of measurements for Ryu. It’s not that it was hard to figure out Ryu’s data, it’s that Cap USA gave out so many different sets of info, it was hard to figure out how tall and how heavy he really is. Also, Capcom never released any SF3 bios, so as far as I know, Ryu still weighs 68 kg or about 150 lbs. I don’t think that Capcom has released any other information on Ryu’s family, just what Saiki mentioned. Shin_Bishamon: I’m not really sure how having pointy ears determines whether Gouki is human or not. While he does have pointy ears in some of the artwork, it could just be artistic interpretation or part of his physical transformation. He also has fangs, but I don’t think that this changes anything. His appearance just matches who he is. Also, for the record, the 3s artwork portrays him with perfectly normal ears, not that it matters. As for Gouki using gloves, he doesn’t always have them on. He cracks Ayer’s rock in 2i without them. Maybe he wears them, and maybe he doesn’t. I think that it is easier for Capcom to portray him with the gloves on because it’s one less sprite change to make. quote: Heh, I find it funny on how some of you are trying to explain SF storylines, like SF3. It's impossible, it has way to many gray areas. Maybe, but I still have fun trying. Also, when Vega refers to his body as temporary, it may be because he knows that he will have a new one soon. Whether it is Ryu, Cammy, or Rose is besides the point. Like Tiamat said, he may have had other bodies in the past, but I’m not sure. His Alpha one and his SF2 body are different though. -Clay PS I had always thought/hoped that Capcom would make an updated version of SSF2T so that they could clear things up. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:03:2001 07:36 PM: Yea, Capcom really REALLY dropped the ball on Super Street Fighter 2 Revival for the Gameboy Advance. The only endings there that got updated were Cammy's and Boxer Balrog's. BALROG'S. They could have at least updated T. Hawk to mention Noembelu or Blanka to already know that his name was Jimmy before seeing his mother or so (or did they and I just not know it? I highly doubt they did, though). And... they still need to have that whole new Bison body thing actually be within the game instead of official statements... (Guile's ending would have been a semi-reasonable way to at least hint at it). Posted by Shoto-ism™ on 12:03:2001 07:40 PM: This thread is just for fun, so its cool. Also tiam, how did Blanka meet Dan? In the forest sharing a bannana? , Dan also understands the language of beast? Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:03:2001 07:56 PM: Actually, a lot of this thread is to make a very serious storyline FAQ to clear up stuff and to reveal to the world confirmed official canon as well as how things all fit into the big picture. You can see our work at http://www.gamefaqs.com/ in any Street Fighter Alpha 3 FAQ section (the SFA3 plot guide with Tiamat as listed author). Only a Street Fighter ALpha 3 plot guide so far but I'm gradually expanding the file to include nearly every game in the Street Fighter universe that officially fits in. ...or at least the Street Fighter and Final Fight games (which tie into each other a lot more than series like Slammasters and Rival Schools). The story is that Blanka saved Dan's life in the forest when Dan was a child. You can see this when you play as Blanka in his midboss dialogue with Dan. Though... absolutely no clue how Dan got stuck in a forest That's officially how and when Dan learned to speak Blankanese (or whatever it's called ) and Blanka learned to understand English, apparently. Blanka told Dan his name, too. Which does contradicts how he doesn't know his name in his Street Fighter 2 ending until his mom comes along which I wish Capcom would have fixed in Street Fighter 2 Revival... Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:03:2001 09:09 PM: As for how Dan got into the jungle..god only knows..I mean..this is DAN..lol Clay- Akuma has always had that demonic presence around him..the artwork may be artistic license..and I agree that the white in his hair does show him as human somewhat, and I also understand your point on the fangs as well. TRUE Akuma though I will have to argue is the demonic part..in that I think that Capcom is trying to show that Akuma is more than human, maybe almost demonic, I mean he all but ebbs that demonic force, everything from where he fights, in his backgrounds, his moves, everything. Gouki, as he fights is I would say 50/50 but Shin Gouki or True Gouki, I give 90/10 on the demonic side...he has always had that thing of being not neccesarily evil as it was said, he just lives by a pure code of fighting, win or die. It was explained in SFA3 about the IHM, in that the more you have sinned, the more it tortures...that doesnt sound like something a "human" would have total control over, thus the demonic part, I think I could agree with the Dark Hadou being reflected in him, but still..it seems to be something more. In SF3 3rd impact it shows him underwater, also proving at a depth that humans cant be at, that he is more than human, but instead a demonic force. The name, the Kanji on the back, everything hints at him not being human, but more...not a "special" like Ryu, but something demonic.. Posted by goukigirl2002 on 12:03:2001 11:11 PM: i love all this gouki stuff, so interesting! Posted by Lantis on 12:04:2001 05:51 AM: quote: Originally posted by FistsofFury Yeah I read your KOF FAQ..when was the last time you updated it??? Last time I saw it you updated it last about a year ago. Where's your SF FAQ??? I wanna see it Well...yeah. Last KOF story FAQ update was with KOF 2000 info. Catch on later when I get the chance to play KOF 2001! MY SF FAQ? Well...trust me, you're better off checking Tiamat's FAQ! Not mine! Definetly not mine! Posted by Clay on 12:04:2001 04:52 PM: Bishamon: quote: It was explained in SFA3 about the IHM, in that the more you have sinned, the more it tortures...that doesnt sound like something a "human" would have total control over Well, the move was created by a human, so I don't see why another human couldn't control it. But now I see where you are going with this. I still view Gouki as a human because, AFAIK, he is one. All proof tends to point towards this. I'm assuming that you're suggesting that he is not human at all, or that perhaps he was/is possessed, or something else entirely. If you have a theory suggesting otherwise, then I would like to see it. I may not agree with it, but I'm here to talk SF, so why not? Please post it or PM me, whatever floats your boat. Take your time and support it thoroughly, though, because if you want to suggest an idea, you have to have some proof to back it up. I have a lot a thoughts regarding the subject and I've spent a good portion of my posts on Gouki, so I'd like to hear what you have to say. -Clay Posted by G.Bonne on 12:04:2001 07:32 PM: I think you guys dont take the story in the StreetFighterAlpha Movie that was out recently do you? Beacause I think it really has to do nothing with the true storyline of street fighter.... ...wichever that is. Posted by FistsofFury on 12:04:2001 08:09 PM: quote: Originally posted by G.Bonne I think you guys dont take the story in the StreetFighterAlpha Movie that was out recently do you? Beacause I think it really has to do nothing with the true storyline of street fighter.... ...wichever that is. Naw the SF Alpha movie isn't thought of as cannon Posted by Berias on 12:04:2001 08:28 PM: quote: Originally posted by Shin_Bishamon ...TRUE Akuma though I will have to argue is the demonic part..in that I think that Capcom is trying to show that Akuma is more than human, maybe almost demonic, I mean he all but ebbs that demonic force, everything from where he fights, in his backgrounds, his moves, everything. I think you're implying a disparity where there isn't one. There is no difference in personality between Gouki and Shin Gouki. The only difference is in the strength used in attacks. Nothing he does is necessarily demonic, he's just very strong. quote: Originally posted by Shin_Bishamon It was explained in SFA3 about the IHM, in that the more you have sinned, the more it tortures...that doesnt sound like something a "human" would have total control over, I always thought that explanation was stupid sounding. Too bad it seems to be correct. (Knowing Capcom, in the next SF installment Gouki appears in watch them deny he ever had a move called Shun Goku Satsu ) Also, since it's completely fictitious, there is no way to determine wether or not a human would have control over it. quote: Originally posted by Shin_Bishamon thus the demonic part, I think I could agree with the Dark Hadou being reflected in him, but still..it seems to be something more. In SF3 3rd impact it shows him underwater, also proving at a depth that humans cant be at, that he is more than human, but instead a demonic force. The name, the Kanji on the back, everything hints at him not being human, but more...not a "special" like Ryu, but something demonic.. This Dark Haadou stuff sounds like the cap usa drivel or something from the SFA movie. With regard to the 3rd impact ending, that's just how powerful he is; how far beyond other people he has become. He's still human, though none of the other Street Fighters are in his league, except maybe Oro and that blockhead Gill. [a certain EX fighter doesn't count : )] There are a lot of ways to interpret the symbol on his back. I've heard things from "Possessed From Above" to "Rest in Peace", based on context. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:04:2001 10:19 PM: Hey Ultima, do you want me to link to your webpage in the FAQ's credit section? ^^ Saiki: Oops!!! Oi... what a slip of the tongue, there. That isn't the first time I've referred to Mad Gear as Metal Gear though and probably most certainly won't be the last. Hey Berias, thanks for the link to the Q info^^ Or... more like the link to the Q info that there isn't any Q info that exists, LOL. Strange Capcom... guess Q's their 'just in case' card. That whole 'witnessed the downfall of Shadowlaw' thing is really interesting, though. And the Q for question thing fits well. Yea, generally, we don't take any anime, manga, books, movies, or graphic novels as canon whatsoever. None of them were produced by Capcom (Capcom's a video game company. They don't branch off into media, novels, mangas, movies, anime, or books, and giving others the right to use the trademark doesn't let what others do with it add to the canon. Erm... yea). Question: I got an e-mail about Vega/Bison giving a 'scar of death' to marked people. I'm almost positive that this is fancanon, though. Because it was mentioned that Eagle had it, Cammy had it, and... Kairi had it. That latter one makes me apt to forget about it right there and then... Hey Lantis, you're the guy that made the SFA3 plot FAQ with all the midboss, boss, and ending dialogues in the game, right? Posted by Ultima on 12:05:2001 12:23 AM: From TiamatRoar: > Hey Ultima, do you want me to link to your webpage in the FAQ's credit section? ^^ Sure, go ahead. > Yea, generally, we don't take any anime, manga, books, movies, or graphic novels as canon whatsoever. None of them were produced by Capcom (Capcom's a video game company. They don't branch off into media, novels, mangas, movies, anime, or books, and giving others the right to use the trademark doesn't let what others do with it add to the canon. Erm... yea). Note that Capcom occasionally uses stuff that originated in other sources and makes them canon, a la Karin Kanzuki. > Question: I got an e-mail about Vega/Bison giving a 'scar of death' to marked people. I'm almost positive that this is fancanon, though. Because it was mentioned that Eagle had it, Cammy had it, and... Kairi had it. That latter one makes me apt to forget about it right there and then... Sounds like a pile of bullshit to me. To Berias: Did I miss something? I thought we already established that the A3 descrption of the SGS was a pile of nonsense? Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:05:2001 12:48 AM: I thought the A3 description of the SGS sending the user and usee to hell was a mistranslation/mutation done by Capcom of USA, but Saiki confirmed that, yes, that's how it works. Which..... is pretty @#$2#$ed up if you ask me but there are lots of things in the SF storyline that are messed up. Crazy Capcom Oh yea, forgot to mention that. But yea, Capcom sometimes takes stuff from manga and makes it canon, themselves (Karin Kanzuki is the biggest example). Lots of people often mistake this as a sign that the entire manga where they took that thing from is canon, too, but that isn't true. ^^ Posted by Berias on 12:05:2001 02:31 AM: I'm pretty sure Saiki said it was correct, but I've heard otherwise. It sounds very, very stupid. Tiamat Roar: The "scar of death" sounds like a fan idea with no backing. On a side note, do you have something against the EX fighters?!?!? Posted by shin-ryu-long on 12:05:2001 03:12 AM: no...i'm telling you, ryu does weigh 175lbs! and it's not like me at all to jump to conclusions or act like i know things i don't.i usually don't believe anyone about anything, unless i've heard it about 15-20times from everyone! i've been so used to ryu's weight being 175 lbs, that i forgot most of the reasons i consider that his weight. but, i do know that from all the web sites i've been to,70% of the bios say he's 175lbs.i used to think he weighed 150lbs too. forget it...anyway, has anyone ever heard anymore rumors about if ryu has a last name? since gouken took him in,shouldn't it be "long" or is gouki& gouken's last name unofficial? Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:05:2001 05:17 AM: I will post what I have for you hopefully by tomorrow clay.. as for the kanji...the offical translation is "Possessed by the heavenly, beyond earthly form" thats the japanese translation..it also means "Ten" I dont even bother with the manga..including the movies.. more tomorrow when I get done typing it up..I loving argueing Akuma stuff..hehe Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:05:2001 05:41 AM: Nah, I don't have anything against EX characters. I was just pointing it out because if this person really knew his canon, he'd know that the EX series isn't part of the Street Fighter canon^^ So since he thinks that Kairi is canon and uses that as evidence for the scar thing, that throws away a lot of the credibility. Posted by Siegfried on 12:05:2001 02:46 PM: "Long" is just part of the insanely inofficial Sheng Long that EGM made up as Gouken's name. Ryu is Ryu. Not Ryu Hoshi, not Ryu Long and certainly not Ryusnoke Hoshi like some madman at mmcafe.com suggested ^_^. Posted by Clay on 12:05:2001 05:07 PM: The "scar of death" sounds false. Why would Eagle have it? He's never even been in a game with Vega at all (not including CvS2). I won't even mention Kairi, who isn't even in the same universe. In regards to Berias' post concerning Gouki: that's exactly what I'm thinking, nice reply. Also, during the Shun Goku-satsu, Gouki does take his opponent to Hell. However, it can kill anyone, regardless of whether they have sinned in the past or not. Saiki gave a pretty good explanation of it already. Ryu is Ryu. He doesn't even need a last name if you think about it. What use would he have for it? Last names for Gouken and Gouki have never been released. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:05:2001 07:33 PM: Shadowlaw had absolutely nothing to do with the Street Fighter 1 tournament, right? Oi vey, there sure is a LOT of 'fancanon' regarding Street Fighter 1... methinks people are overcomplicating things with it or so. ^^ Posted by Clay on 12:06:2001 01:00 AM: Right, Shadaloo was never mentioned in SF1. Sagat created the World Warriors Tournament. SF1 was the first one, and it was intended as a means of fighting the strongest warriors around the world. Later, Vega sponsored the second one as a means of avenging his defeat. The first World Warriors Tournament didn't have any background story to it. It was just a tourney that was created by the (then) current Muay Thai God. -Clay Posted by tsj76 on 12:06:2001 01:52 AM: quote: Originally posted by Azrael-sama Thanks Clay, you sure know your SF! I seem to recall always hearing about a trait of the shun-goku-satsu...the more evil that is in one's heart, the more pain the shun-goku-satsu will inflict on them. However, I can't recall ever seeing that in a game storyline, so it may have been fabricated somewhere for entertainment value. -Az Actaully, in Akuma's ending in SFA3, he says that himself. "The Raging Demon...it's power is unequaled. It is not my fist but your past sins that will kill you... The more evil your past deeds, the more painful your death.." Also, as far as the story line goes. I know someone who actually can read Japanese, unfourtunately she's not a SF fan. But she translated the "Evil/Killing Intent" as "Killing Ability" or "Killing Potential." This translation seems to make a little more sense to me, after all. Ryu is portrayed as an all around nice guy-who happens to excel at laying the smack down on people. Yet he seems to have no murderous "intent" (taking the word very literally- definition-a plan or notion to do something.) Also, this would explain the Ryu-Akuma (Gouki) story a little better. *Assuming that the SF1, SF2, & SF3 storylines are concrete, and that what happens in Street Fighter Alpha, well what fits fits what doesn't doesn't and can be disregarded: Let's say Akuma notices that Ryu has "Killing Ability/Potential." Given that Ryu rejects this power, Akuma no longer has any use for Ryu and decides to just leave him alone. That's my theory anyway. Now I think they should let Akuma move on and find somebody else with "Killing Ability/Potential"...say Sakura maybe. Posted by Psycho Power J on 12:06:2001 10:13 PM: quote: Actually, in Akuma's ending in SFA3, he says that himself. "The Raging Demon...it's power is unequaled. It is not my fist but your past sins that will kill you... The more evil your past deeds, the more painful your death.." I've been thinking about another theory about what happens during a Shungokusatsu. I think it makes the victim experience the pain that they inflict on others, kind of like Ghost Rider's ability in Marvel. The shock of experiencing it in an instant is what kills the victim. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:06:2001 10:16 PM: Heh, the stuff about the Shun Goku Satsu and it being killing intent (as opposed to the badly translated evil intent that Capcom of USA did) is in the Street Fighter story FAQ and already confirmed^^ Posted by Berias on 12:06:2001 11:03 PM: That's why Gouki calls the Kongou Kokuretsuzan "the ultimate technique." It's much cooler than the SGS, especially when you buffer it off his universal overhead. Hey Clay, I can't believe you agreed with me about the Garuda issue (way back in the "strongest fighters" thread) Between the two of us there are probably no mistakes...! Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:07:2001 02:02 AM: Sorry its taking me so long to post... I am one of the unfortunate souls who are stuck in this Comcast mess.. hoping to get it settled...either get cable or hook up on the DSL lines around here.. I am trying to find the page...if it is still existing..but I saved the Akuma bio from SFA2 from Capcom's offical page, trying to see if it exists in capcom, if it doesnt I am going to try and find another source.. but in it it says that the "masters" sealed away the power of the Shun Goku Gatsu. Akuma thought them fools for such a thing, seeing that they must fight with all the power.. I will see if I can find it.. and I agree totally on the killing intent ideal.. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:07:2001 02:26 AM: Goutetsu sealing away the Shun Goku Satsu is something stupid Capcom of America made up. In actual canonity in Japan, he taught it to Akuma/Gouki and Gouken, directly, not hid it away. ^^ Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:07:2001 02:48 AM: So we are to assume that both Gouken and Gouki know it then? *nods* then I will change my theory, esp after what I have found ..and go with this.. Akuma's look..is demonic..but he is human...his look is influenced by his evil intent..everything around him says or screams death..I think in the end..he will be something of a demon..and as he goes on..you see more of a transformation to that end.. disagree/agree? Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:07:2001 03:11 AM: wanted to add something..found this in my japanese mythology book "The akuma is an evil, terrifying spirit of Japan. It has an enormous, flaming head with eyes like live coals and carries a sword aloft as it sweeps through the air. Sighting an akuma is extremely unlucky." he may not have a sword...but that red hair and those glowing eyes of his..I think he is starting to fit the bill... lets just hope he sticks to the fists.. Posted by Clay on 12:07:2001 06:22 PM: Tsj76: Dude… we’ve been over that multiple times already, read the thread. Some of that was even covered on the first page and even repeated on the page before this. A lot of what you said goes hand in hand with what we've already mentioned. Thanks for the thoughts. Psycho Power J: See above, read the thread. The flaw in your theory is that the Shun Gouku-satsu kills anybody even if they haven’t sinned or have lead a “good” life. It attacks the soul, the only way to protect yourself is to have complete control and focus over your mind and to empty it. Check for Saiki’s post on page 13. Berias: Surprised? Really?!? I just tell it like is. I think Garuda’s really cool, but I don’t play the EX games too often. He’s one of the only EX characters that I like. He is immensely overpowered though. I liked that “strongest fighters” thread. It really led to some nice discussion. Too bad nobody else really replied to it. Shin Bishamon: A lot of the stuff that points to Gouki being demonic seems to be coming from Cap USA. In the Japanese storyline, he seems to be regarded as a man with unbelievable power; a devoted warrior who is an extremist. The Cap USA interpretation tries to make him seem like a villain, a demon who is really more evil than he actually is. Gouken knows the Shun Goku-Satsu and Goutetsu was the only master. I don’t know why being a demon would make Gouki seem more powerful to some people, I think that it is a pretty cool idea for a human to reach the level of skill that he has obtained. Why must he be a supernatural force when all the evidence points towards him being human? Who knows what the future holds for him. Gouki is only concerned with his training and finding people who will give him the ultimate challenge. I don’t think that he’s searching for anything else and definitely do not consider him to be evil. By the way, thanks for the bit of mythology. I find that very interesting, but it doesn’t apply to Gouki at all, mainly because Akuma isn’t his original name. That is the name that Cap USA gives him and it goes right along with what I was saying before. Cap USA seems to have (at least in the past) tried to portray Gouki as a demon or some supernatural force, but that is not accurate with the initial story. Choosing Akuma as his name certainly fits their interpretation. The Ashura Senkuu is named after a fighting demon as well, but I don’t think that that changes anything. As you know, I don’t use any information provided by Cap USA, so that renders a lot of theories as useless or incorrect in my eyes. -Clay Posted by Psycho Power J on 12:07:2001 08:11 PM: quote: Psycho Power J: See above, read the thread. The flaw in your theory is that the Shun Gouku-satsu kills anybody even if they haven’t sinned or have lead a “good” life. It attacks the soul, the only way to protect yourself is to have complete control and focus over your mind and to empty it. Check for Saiki’s post on page 13. Thanks for the clear-up. It really makes you wonder if Akuma is a demon to be able to go to hell and not be attacked by the demons. On the subject of Zangief of being gay, it made me look at his ending at http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/arcade/b/ssf2tzan.htm I noticed on his portrait at the bottom of the page, there seem to be a picture of Vega/Balrog attached to the mirror. I can't tell if Zangief is grimacing or smiling. Can someone tell? Posted by Shoto-ism™ on 12:07:2001 08:24 PM: In Adon's ending it is never explained why Akuma saved him, not to mention where Adon goes from there. So why did Akuma spare him? Also, to take note, in Akuma's mid-boss fight, it's Adon he fights, yet adon is all talk and akuma takes no real interest in him, and just tells him to shut up and fight. So this makes no real sense why akuma would save him. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:07:2001 08:59 PM: *blink blink* Wow, I never noticed that Oo Zangief might have a thing for Vega/Balrog? Oo I think his facial expression there is just one of ferociousness at his own flexing self and not directed at the picture, though^^ There IS a time in Street Fighter Alpha 3 when Zangief runs into Vega/Balrog. It's Vega/Balrog's midboss fifth battle with him. There really isn't too much indication there though of anything, really. Zangief doesn't hit on him or anything... unless Capcom of USA censored something there that I don't know about. Hmm.... Posted by Ultima on 12:07:2001 09:42 PM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar *blink blink* Wow, I never noticed that Oo Zangief might have a thing for Vega/Balrog? Oo I think his facial expression there is just one of ferociousness at his own flexing self and not directed at the picture, though^^ I thought this had already been discussed: The picture of Vega in Zangief's ST ending has "baka" (idiot) scribbled on it. Most likely, the picture is to represent Zangief poking fun at Vega by mimicking his vain behaviour. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:07:2001 10:35 PM: Wow, it was mentioned before? Wonder how I missed it. Wierd. One of Zangief's quotes in CvS2, I believe: "My body is perfect! I belong in a magazine!" Or something like that. Posted by Azrael-sama on 12:07:2001 10:46 PM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Wow, it was mentioned before? Wonder how I missed it. Wierd. One of Zangief's quotes in CvS2, I believe: "My body is perfect! I belong in a magazine!" Or something like that. Speaking of CvS2 quotes, I've been keeping up with a quote FAQ that's on GameFAQ's right now. The team quotes are really interesting...although this game is far from canon, it really shows you more of what the characters are like. Like... quote: Ken: I'll surpass both you and Ryu! Gouki: Hmph......Show me that your barking is more than just words! Zangief: When an ally, your hadoken is very helpful! Ryu: I see, if I've been helpful to you I'm happy for it. I just wish there were more. -Az Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:08:2001 12:50 AM: Thats why I changed my theory is that most of the stuff I had, I realized that most of it came from Capcom USA, thus like you said, rendered alot of it null and void. As for Gouki and his incredible power, I think that it is still hinted at though, but I will take it as him being a man, just with powers beyond belief..dark powers, which I think are changing him..and not for the better either, thus the thing of the IHM, and us finding out that he does in fact take them to "hell" could be linked to him being a demon as well, but I think I like the more idea of the Crow theme, in that the person feels all their sins in one moment and that is what kills them, which would also account for Gen surviving, as he is able to empty his soul and thus survive the IHM... I think someone said that somewhere... As for The Shin Akuma question I got asked...I dont believe in Shin Akuma, because I dont see there as being a True Akuma..or Gouki. I cannot believe that Gouki is holding back from his fights..that is just out of character for him..I dont see it happening..I think Shin Akuma is like Evil Ryu, something Capcom USA came up with to give people something to chew on... the only time I could EVER see "Shin" Akuma happening is the one from CVSNK2 where Rugal gives him the Orochi power, but since that series is seen as Cannon, then Shin akuma is as well. Posted by Ultima on 12:08:2001 01:05 AM: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Shin_Bishamon > As for The Shin Akuma question I got asked...I dont believe in Shin Akuma, because I dont see there as being a True Akuma..or Gouki. I cannot believe that Gouki is holding back from his fights..that is just out of character for him..I dont see it happening..I think Shin Akuma is like Evil Ryu, something Capcom USA came up with to give people something to chew on... Why do you think he doesn't hold back? Akuma's full power is wasted on most foes, so there's no need to exert himself. It's the ol' DBZ motif: You only go to full power when you need to. Perfectly in character for him. > the only time I could EVER see "Shin" Akuma happening is the one from CVSNK2 where Rugal gives him the Orochi power, but since that series is seen as Cannon, then Shin akuma is as well. Er, I take it you meant "since that series is NOT canon, then Shin Akums is NOT as well", right? Note that the Shin Akuma in CvS2 and the traditional Shin Akuma in ever other game are two different characters (the character for "Shin" is different). Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:08:2001 01:30 AM: Er, I take it you meant "since that series is NOT canon, then Shin Akums is NOT as well", right? Note that the Shin Akuma in CvS2 and the traditional Shin Akuma in ever other game are two different characters (the character for "Shin" is different). yeh thats what I meant...stupid keyboard.. Shin akuma period..I cannot see being a character. Posted by Berias on 12:08:2001 01:37 AM: quote: Originally posted by Shin_Bishamon As for Gouki and his incredible power, I think that it is still hinted at though, but I will take it as him being a man, just with powers beyond belief..dark powers, which I think are changing him..and not for the better either, thus the thing of the IHM, and us finding out that he does in fact take them to "hell" could be linked to him being a demon as well, I think we've been over this ground before, dude. Association with Hell does not = Demonic Bias quote: Originally posted by Shin_Bishamon As for The Shin Akuma question I got asked...I dont believe in Shin Akuma, because I dont see there as being a True Akuma..or Gouki. I cannot believe that Gouki is holding back from his fights..that is just out of character for him..I dont see it happening..I think Shin Akuma is like Evil Ryu, something Capcom USA came up with to give people something to chew on... Hahaha, you don't "believe" in True Gouki? That's too bad, because he is very real (in the game). It seems he does not like going on murder sprees or even killing the average fighter, so he does not use all of his strength. It makes perfect sense, and it is in character for him. Why waste energy on kids? It's better to take out the people who claim to be the strongest or very good. Shin Gouki is most certainly NOT a machination of Cap USA; the first appearance of Gouki was Shin Gouki. He is not evil so much as he is morally ambigious. Even that is questionable. quote: Originally posted by Shin_Bishamon the only time I could EVER see "Shin" Akuma happening is the one from CVSNK2 where Rugal gives him the Orochi power, but since that series is seen as Cannon, then Shin akuma is as well. That was the stupidest shit I could've imagined. "Ok, I'll inject this Orochi stuff into you! Whee, cool!" I thank God this isn't cannon. CvS2 is only good for kicks. quote: Originally posted by Shin_Bishamon Shin Akuma period... I cannot see being a character He's official. Everything about him makes sense. Get used to it. EDIT: Grammar Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:08:2001 02:25 AM: I wasnt supporting the demonic theory..already said that. I was requoting someone else.. as for the shin gouki... I think I need to clarify myself..in the GAME yes he is very real..and a asshole at that..but character wise..STORY wise.. I do not see him existing..makes no sense. geez..remind myself next time to be more specific. Posted by FistsofFury on 12:08:2001 02:40 AM: quote: Originally posted by Shin_Bishamon as for the shin gouki... I think I need to clarify myself..in the GAME yes he is very real..and a asshole at that..but character wise..STORY wise.. I do not see him existing..makes no sense. I feel you I see where you're coming from, thinking that Gouki is a "all or nothing", "fight to the death" type of person. So naturally holding back would see out of character. But look at it this way. Would you put your 100% all effort in a basketball game with 5-year-olds?? It'd be over quickly, and it would almost be a waste of time. My theory is that Gouki holds back....to make the fight more interesting. To see what his opponent's got to show him, instead of going all out and just destorying his enemy before the fight even got off the ground. This is a nice little talk Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:08:2001 02:48 AM: but isnt gouki's whole purpose is to destroy them all out... I think he already knows they arent worth it.. from what I have seen..."See how weak you truly are" those kinds of lines, he can already tell......the ones he has really sought out is Ryu and Gen, the rest come find him..(adon), and even in that he didnt even bother with him. why wait, if you already know they arent worth it? Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:08:2001 03:28 AM: oops..forgot bison..gouki sought him out too Posted by Berias on 12:08:2001 05:18 AM: No he wasn't. Bison was in the way. Try to understand Shin Gouki is a verified storyline character. If you choose to ignore that, fine, but that doesn't make him any less real. It just makes you look silly for going against a Capcom fact. Posted by Obi Wong Kenobi on 12:08:2001 05:48 AM: I was just wondering, what type of character is Sean from stf3. I honestly never played the game But my brother did alot and i was just loking for some backround info on the dude cause he actually looked like a fun character to play with. anyway i dont know if you talk about this already cause there is just so many pages on this wicked thread and i couldn't wait to read them all and then find out that he wasn't even in it. so if you guys did talk about him you could just point me to the page and thats all cool with me . I also had a question about how cody got in jail in the first place? then also how he got out? that would be cool to know tooanyway thanks. Posted by Clay on 12:08:2001 07:47 AM: Denying the existence of Shin Gouki sounds rather odd, it's kind of like saying that he isn't that much better than anyone else. Gouki wants to find the challenger(s) who will force him to use all of his abilities the one who will push him past his own limits. Most of the fighters in SF simply are not strong or skilled enough to do this. This is why people say that he's holding back, because even a fraction of his abilities is enough to crush most foes. Don't think of it as Gouki showing mercy, think of it as him not considering his opponent as worthy of a real fight. Compared to him, a lot of the SF cast is a joke. Anything else I have to add has already been covered by Ultima and Berias. Obi Wong: There isn't too much of a background on Sean, but we mentioned him earlier in the thread. I seem to recall a few comments in the first couple of pages and then some more later around pages 5-6. Sean Matsuda is half japanese and half brazillian. He sought to be Ken's disciple and Ken took him under his wing and trained him. He entered the third World Warriors Tournament and was eliminated by Ken himself. In 2i Sean was a pretty good character, however in 3s, he seems to be more of a joke than anything else. His moves were weakened considerably and really doesn't have too much of an advantage over any other characters. His 3s ending also reflects this change as well. In 2i he is shown facing off against Ryu (and losing), however, in 3s he fails to even qualify for the US Martial Arts Tournament. It seems like Capcom turned its back on him. I've heard dissenting stories on how Cody got in jail, so I'll leave that to somebody else who knows Final Fight a little better. In Z3, it seems like Cody just decided to bust out. I'll let somebody else elaborate on this one. -Clay Posted by Psycho Power J on 12:08:2001 02:48 PM: Was someone looking for that Fanfic where E.Honda dies in the beginning? I think I found it, it's called WAR FOR THE WORLDS by Joshua Dyal. It's a real interesting fanfic. It doesn't accurately portray the characters, and is a bit far-fetched, but it is still pretty good Posted by Ultima on 12:08:2001 07:30 PM: quote: Originally posted by Obi Wong Kenobi I also had a question about how cody got in jail in the first place? then also how he got out? that would be cool to know tooanyway thanks. I've heard two stories that explain why Cody was in jail: 1) After Final Fight, Cody continued fighting day and night. One day, he hurt somebody realy bad, and got tossed in jail for it. 2) Poison supposedly framed him for something. I don't know what. I'm not sure which one is true. Personally, I go with the former explanation since the latter one comes from Final Fight Revenge, which I don't treat as canon for being way too lame. As for how he got out, I think there was a prison break that he had nothing to really do with, but he took the opportunity to escape. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:08:2001 07:55 PM: quote: Originally posted by Ultima I've heard two stories that explain why Cody was in jail: 1) After Final Fight, Cody continued fighting day and night. One day, he hurt somebody realy bad, and got tossed in jail for it. 2) Poison supposedly framed him for something. I don't know what. I'm not sure which one is true. Personally, I go with the former explanation since the latter one comes from Final Fight Revenge, which I don't treat as canon for being way too lame. As for how he got out, I think there was a prison break that he had nothing to really do with, but he took the opportunity to escape. The former is the original official reason, and the latter would override it if you want to take FFR as canon (following the 'latest version is the one to take' rule). Of course, FFR's canonity comes greatly into question so... Either way, the one that arrested him was Edi. E (third boss and the cop guy in Final Fight), though^^ Posted by Obi Wong Kenobi on 12:08:2001 10:34 PM: thanks for all the help really made it easy to understand some of these character now i want to play stf3! and all the info on cody help out on a character that is one of my faves. anyway if you guys aren't doing anything could you answer another question, well actually just more of a clairfication: see i always thought that dan trained under and at the sametime as ken and ryu did with there master. but then my brother said it was a differnt time. i was just wondering if this is at all true on any account or are we both just really stf newbies (even though we have been playing since the original that doesn't mean we can't be newbies on the story wise) alright thanks for all the help Posted by Saiki on 12:08:2001 10:49 PM: Gouken trained Dan first, but kicked him out before Ryu and Ken came. Ryu and Ken didn't know Dan up until SFZ2~3 Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:09:2001 02:47 AM: Clay, I agree with what you have said so far, unlike other accusations around here, at least you back what you say, but you could look at Gouki in two ways, I think thats what makes him so attractive to gamers is that you could look at him as the ultimate evil, or you can look at him as this warrior who has embraced the ideal of the ultimate fight and proving himself and to be master of his fists. As for my sources, they were from Capcom USA, which from what I have gathered is less than shit, so I threw them out. As for Shin Gouki, Clay, I agree with what you say, I understand it...if you have a page or something that actually says they are the same being let me know.. I still hold to the fact they capcom just put Shin Akuma in there, to be a bastard to players that were thinking that the bosses like bison were too easy Posted by Siegfried on 12:09:2001 10:11 PM: Yes, that's the fanfic I was reading! Even though it's really old (1997) and has all the old Capcom USA mistakes (Sheng Long, Shotokan etc), it was very entertaining. You should give it a try. It used more or less all of the characters, not to mention a few Darkstalkers. Posted by Ultima on 12:09:2001 11:25 PM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Gouken trained Dan first, but kicked him out before Ryu and Ken came. Ryu and Ken didn't know Dan up until SFZ2~3 Query: Didn't Ryu and Ken start training with Gouken when they were really young? Hell, didn't Gouken practically raise Ryu? If so, and Gouken trained Dan before them, then Dan must be considerably older than Ken and Ryu. Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:10:2001 02:39 AM: I was under the impression that Dan trained with them, but was kicked out because of the rage in his heart, and that Gouken didnt want Dan becoming like Gouki. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:10:2001 04:38 AM: Repeating this in an attempt to make sense of it, since some of this doesn't seem to fit right. Reasons at the end. Canon official facts, unless I'm mistaken: Gouken was given Ryu when Ryu was a baby by Ryu's mother (reason why is unstated) Gouken took up Dan as a student before taking up Ryu or Ken but saw the rage in Dan's eyes then kicked him out. Retsu finished Dan's training when he saw that Gouken wouldn't. Dan never knew that Ryu and Ken even existed until Street Fighter Alpha 2. Now the part that doesn't really fit is how Gouken raised Ryu as a baby and up. If Gouken raised Ryu, wouldn't Dan know about Ryu somehow, at least? Unless... either Ryu being raised as a baby by Gouken was a fact forgotten by Capcom (similar to many old Gouken facts), or Dan was Gouken's student for such a ridiculously short time that he didn't get to find out about Ryu before he was kicked out (plausible, because Retsu is the one that finished Dan's training so it's possible that Dan learned very little from Gouken) Someone please correct me if I got something wrong here^^ Posted by Berias on 12:10:2001 12:37 PM: Does anyone remember the old (SF2 WW days) Capcom line about Ryu being dedicated to mastery over the Hadoken and Ken being dedicated to mastery over the Shoryuken? This explained their different styles in Championship Ed. but you never hear about it again. Posted by Siegfried on 12:10:2001 02:53 PM: What does Retsu have to do with Dan? There's an official SFA art of him beating Dan, but it doesn't mean he trained him. Does any of Retsu's style (whatever it may be) show in Dan's moves? I've just interpreted it like Retsu did Gouken a favour by throwing Dan out. The picture doesn't look like "no, boy, do like this", but more like "and never come back again!". And Dan is probably a few years older than Ryu and Ken. In fact, you can make his hair graying in CvS2 - there's some individual stripes of a color near his temples... Posted by Ultima on 12:10:2001 03:01 PM: quote: Originally posted by Berias Does anyone remember the old (SF2 WW days) Capcom line about Ryu being dedicated to mastery over the Hadoken and Ken being dedicated to mastery over the Shoryuken? This explained their different styles in Championship Ed. but you never hear about it again. It's still true, to an extent, even if it's not implicitly mentioned. It's why Ryu has the Shinkuu Hadouken and Ken has the Shinryuken. However, it kinda got rendered moot by SF3 when Ryu got the Shin Shoryuken, which is even more powerful than the Shinryuken. -_- Also, I heard once that Ryu wasn't supposed to have gotten the Shinkuu Tatsu-maki-senpuu-kyaku in the Alpha games, but Ken was (as a representation of his "fast, crazy kicks" that he had in SF2:CE onwards). Capcom "corrected" this by removing the super HK from Ryu in SF3 and giving Ken the Shippu Jinrai Kyaku. Now it seems like Capcom doesn't really care, and they both have their respective kick supers. :/ Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:10:2001 03:03 PM: Retsu finishing Dan's training was taken from an old Street Fighter storyline thread that Saiki participated in that I found^^ I think it was Saiki that stated it... at least, I'm pretty sure I went to it was but I could be wrong. And the URL that contained that log is gone now for some reason Posted by Golden Dragon on 12:11:2001 12:01 AM: First off, Retsu's a fallen monk who practices forbidden techniques of Shorinji kempo, as you guys probably already know. He wasn't a sparring partner of Ryu & Ken NOR was he Gouken's pupil. Now that I've gotten that outta the way, I've seen that pic of Retsu & Dan but I didn't know it was supposed to have a meaning behind it. What I'd like to know is what do u mean Retsu finished Dan's training? Could ya please fill me in? Btw, here's a lil' proof that Retsu WAS a monk at 1 time and that he does practice Shorinji Kempo for any non-believers out there. 1. In his stage, he fights you in front of a Japanese monastery. 2. Take a look at these links & compare the outfits of the Shorinji Kempo practioners with Retsu's outfit. They're identical. http://www.shorinji-kempo.org/ http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/ http://www.stats.gla.ac.uk/~niall/skpage.html Posted by G.Bonne on 12:11:2001 12:45 AM: I'm sorry I dont know if this been asked before but... Charlie came(fought) before Guile Right? What was he fighting for and what was guile fighting for? Are they humans? beacause they supousedly break the sound barrier with their hands & legs and no human body could suppourt that kind of treatment. Any word on this would be very apreciated...BTW somebody SHOULD make this a sticky. Posted by Shin_Bishamon on 12:11:2001 04:01 AM: Charlie came before guile yes. they were both working for the military to bring down Bison. As for the sonic booms..I have heard everything from military experiments allowing them to do that..to it being just the way their ki is....ryu's comes out in a fireball...their's comes out as that..and they call it a sonic boom I go with the second one... Posted by Berias on 12:11:2001 04:31 PM: quote: Originally posted by G.Bonne I'm sorry I dont know if this been asked before but... Charlie came(fought) before Guile Right? Yeah. quote: Originally posted by G.Bonne What was he fighting for and what was guile fighting for? Charlie was fighting because he likes beating people. Capcom said he was trying to bring down Vega (M.Bison). Guile was sent to bring back Charlie, a redundant task, since he ended up doing what Charlie was going to do anyway. Actually, Charlie still did it. Later (SF2 WW and on) Guile was fighting because he has a chip on his soldier like all members of the special forces. quote: Originally posted by G.Bonne Are they humans? beacause they supousedly break the sound barrier with their hands & legs and no human body could suppourt that kind of treatment. Charlie is 100% human. Guile, however, is half human, half robot, and half Italian. He is very large. "Ret's barrel!" Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:13:2001 12:50 AM: Wow, wonder why this got moved to general discussion after 500+ posts in the gaming discussion. Anyway, Retsu 'finishing' Dan's training is a quote from Saiki, so I guess will have to ask him for the details on what it's about Posted by Ultima on 12:13:2001 04:45 AM: Oh my fucking GOD, who is IDIOT that moved this to General Discussion? Why the hell was this moved? This is a valid discussion about Capcom fighting games. It is not spam, and it doesn't even remotely pass as anything other than "discussion about Capcom fighting games". Last I checked, Gaming Discussion was for "Discuss anything you like regarding gaming, preferably Capcom fighting games". I've had issues with people removing legitimite gaming discussion threads to General before (issues that have yet to be resolved - would somebody PLEASE tell me what part of "discuss anything you like" actually means "don't talk about [insert gaming topic here]"), but I never thought I would see it happen for a thread that discusses Capcom fighting games. For the love of Gord, PLEASE move this back to Gaming Discussion where it belongs! Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:13:2001 05:04 AM: Ugh, I concur. Do you know how hard it'll be for people to find this thread, now, dammit? Who the hell was the FUCKING MORON who did this!?!?! Posted by Azrael-sama on 12:13:2001 05:35 AM: Yeah, really. Whoever did it sure went on a movin' spree... Posted by Berias on 12:13:2001 09:17 AM: I know, it makes no sense at all. This whole thread is about capcom fighting games. You see, this guy named Overdrive whined about how these forums have no moderation, and how most of the posts are crap. One of the highly impressionable admins (inkblot) thought it was a good idea and implemented it. This thread got moved to general discussion, which is a baffling decision. I am pretty sure he moved it. I love it how if I want to read this stuff I have to bypass threads like "IS IT BEASTIALITY TO WANT FELICA". Posted by Saiki on 12:14:2001 04:38 AM: Dan is older than Ryu and Ken by quite a bit. Capcom never stated by how much, but considering that Sakura calls Dan, "Ojisan", Dan is most likely between 27~35 in the Zero series. And Dan was never trained by Retsu. I don't recall saying that in that gamefaqs thread but if I did, I was wrong. Although Retsu did beat up Dan just like that picture shows though. But that was long after Gouken kicked Dan out. And about the Sonic Boom, this is what Capcom says about it. The Sonic Boom is actually created by using ki. Nash will concentrate his ki into his hand, arm of whatever and thrusts it at a speed faster than sound. When someone is hit by the Sonic Boom, it'll feel like getting smashed into a brick wall. It's also colder than Russia's winter and is also supposed to be the fastest projectile story-wise. The game doesn't show this at all though. I think the SF2 animated movie showed the Sonic Boom better. BTW, what's sticky? Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:14:2001 07:36 AM: The Dan Retsu comment was made in a mailing list about Street Fighter storyline discussion, I believe^^ As stated earlier, the log was sadly removed from the webspace, though. But it's wrong? Okay, coolness. I'd better correct that. Thanks, Saiki^^ Well, got my hands on some Final Fight One boss dialogues. Rolento telling Guy in SFA2, "I see you remember your true master" might not be a mistranslation after all. In Final Fight One, he greets you with "Say it! Who is the real leader!?" in a mockful tone. Him saying to Guy, "I see you remember your true master" is him pretty much stating "I oWn j00!!!!!" instead of him implying that Guy was a member of Mad Gear, apparently. So far I've played through with Haggar and halfway with Cody, and there haven't really been any big storyline tidbits otherwise that I gleamed from the game (Sodom's pre-fight dialogues are really funny, though). I'm kinda annoyed that they don't explain Edi. E much. I mean, both Haggar and Cody identify him as a member of Mad Gear (and both are disgusted that a police officer would join Mad Gear) so I'm trying to figure out how he managed to hold onto his job as a policeman after Final Fight One... And, Abigail is still of course the most boring and pointless of the bosses in the game... wow, that was a brief boss dialogue. ...erm, hope no one minds me going off on these Final Fight sidbits. If anyone wants the dialogues, just ask here and I'll post them when I'm done beating the game with everyone (including Alpha Guy and Alpha Cody, who supposedly have their own unique boss dialogues, too. I wonder what Alpha Cody's boss dialogue with Edi. E will be like...) Sticky is when the thread automatically 'sticks' to the top of the page without needing any 'bumps' or anyone posting within the thread to keep it up there. It's a status given to a thread by moderators who feel the thread is important^^ Randomness: Silly Capcom. Apparently, officially, in America, Chunli's name is Chun Li OR Chun-Li (The games use BOTH Oo) and Feilong's is Fei Long, despite how culturally, that's really not how naming is supposed to work. At least, that's the way it is in the games. Them and their bad translators... Ah, okay, so far the Street Fighter FAQ guide is including mostly quickie summaries of the various Street Fighter games, and I included the Final Fight games cause they tie in a bit with Street Fighter, too. Also included were Rival Schools and Slammasters, however, those two are limited because so far they don't tie into the Street Fighter games much at all and I'm too lazy to spend energy on studying those games right now (nevermind the fact that Rival Schools has so many small storyline tidbits that it'd need a story FAQ of its own to cover everything...). So all those two get are really brief synopsises and quickie plugs on where they fit into the timeline, but right now I'm not including their characters in the characters master list or so. Character masters list, instead of just containing info on what a character did during Street Fighter Alpha 3, will now contain info on what that character did (or probably did) in every storyline-canon game they appeared in, in chronological order. Rival Schools and Slammasters exclusive characters won't be included in that (reasons already stated) though I'll probably include most of the first Final Fight ones since most of them appear in later Street Fighter games (Edi E, El Gado, Poison, etc). Don't think I'll bother with most of the characters from Final Fight 2 or 3, though (with the exception of the playable good guys... mainly Haggar and Maki though. Lucia, Dean, and Carlos... really don't seem to have much on them, nor have they had any bearing on the plots of the Street Fighter games, whatsoever. Haggar at least cameo'd in SFA2 Rolento's ending... I'll probably throw Lucia, Dean, and Carlos in for the sake of completion but... mweh :sweat. As always, any Final Fight Revenge parts shall be marked with disclaimers that they might not be canon. And.... erm, that's about it. Nothing to show right now since I'm having Finals now, but I should have something saluable within a week or two. *is rambly* Posted by Golden Hell on 12:14:2001 01:43 PM: Wow, you don't go online for abit and when you return the whole thread moved! Damn...this thread doesn't belong in this section. TiamatRoar - I don't mind Final Fight discussions at all. In fact, I'd love to see the dialogues if you can post them. I am an unfortunate soul who does not have a Gameboy Advance Saiki - thanks for the extra info. It makes sense that Dan would be older. What does "Ojisan" mean? Is it like 'big brother'? Posted by Berias on 12:14:2001 05:28 PM: Tiamat Roar, If you would post Sodom's pre fight dialogues, that would be great. Thanks Posted by Clay on 12:14:2001 07:55 PM: Weird seeing this in General Discussion. I always thought that the thread was pretty much "on topic". I just find it odd. Anyway, I don't really know too much about the Final Fight storyline, so if people have stuff to post, then I'm interested in reading it. It's all related as well. I always figured that Dan was older. He's travelled a lot, and it seems to make sense. Also, Dan might not recognize Ryu because he still would have been a boy. I think that Ryu was around 12-13 years old (early teenage years) when his training began. Since Dan came to Gouken before that time, it seems natural that he wouldn't realize that Ryu is the same kid. How long was Dan with Gouken anyway? Was he turned down right away or did he hang around before getting kicked out? -Clay Posted by Siegfried on 12:15:2001 12:26 AM: Ojisan means "old man" in about the same way as in English. So, she could use it for him because he's being "fatherly" or something like that. He doesn't look too old... but he's still older than Ryu and Ken. Go Hibiki must have been quite old then. Sagat was 35 in SFA3 - if Dan isn't much younger, then Go was at least 10 years older than Sagat. I also got the impression that Dan was a teenager when his father was killed, but maybe that's just me being stereotypical a la Shenmue. And this is in the usual forum now, but there isn't a post count. Posted by Golden Dragon on 12:15:2001 12:53 AM: CLAY, I think Saiki said Dan was kicked out BEFORE Ryu & Ken became Gouken's students. That's why Ken & Ryu didn't know 'bout Dan 'til SFA2 or SFA3. Posted by Azrael-sama on 12:15:2001 03:10 AM: Right...but remember, Gouken took Ryu when he was a baby...so Dan was around at that time...then Dan gets kicked out, and then a few years later, Ryu is old enough to be trained. How old was Ryu/Ken when training started anyway? I assume Ryu and Ken started training at the same time, especially since (I think it was said that...) Ansatsuken requires two students, for the purposes of improvement and sparring. -Az Posted by Golden Dragon on 12:15:2001 09:08 PM: Ohhh yeah. You're right, Azrael. I completely forgot 'bout that. Posted by Berias on 12:16:2001 01:21 AM: Whatever. *bump!* Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:16:2001 04:26 AM: Damn, this thing scrolls off the page fast. Sigh, I wish it were back in gaming discussion. Ah well, here you all go^^ The dialogues of Final Fight One before each boss battle. Admittingly, many of them weren't too impressive, though Sodom is hilarious. SFA3 Cody's are the BEST, too ^_~ I learned a lot from SFA3 Cody's, assuming these dialogues are official, which I think they are. Haggar's FF1 boss dialogues Battle with Damnd Haggar: You're the one who called me! Damnd: He he he! Bingo baby! The Mad Gear will rule! Haggar: I will destroy you!! Battle with Sodom Sodom victory pose: Come on! I'm Oni Samurai! Sodom to Haggar: I'm gonna hurt you! OK? Haggar: What a nasty gang! Are you the boss of this area? Sodom: Yes! It is an honor to be slashed by me! Prepare to Bonzai!! Battle with Edi. E Haggar: You!! A policeman!? Edi. E: It's an honor to meet our lovely mayor in person! (Tiamat note: I assume he was supposed to say 'beloved' and lovely was a mistranslation...) Haggar: Shut up! You disgust me! Edi. E: Once you are gone, nothing can stop us! Haggar: No! I will destroy all of you!! Battle with Rolento Rolento greeting pose: Say it! Who is the real leader!? Rolento to Haggar: Hmmm! You're a big man. Haggar: A military man... but I have no time for this! Rolento: I'll test you personally... Battle with Abigail Haggar: I'll destroy you and rescue Jessica from Belger! Abigail: Don't think you'll get by me so easily! Haggar: You think you are so strong?! It's go time!! Battle with Belger Haggar: Jessica!! Belger: Oh! How nice of the mayor to come here personally! Haggar: Belger! I won't give this city to your evil hands! Belger: My dear mayor, why do you think people join Mad Gear? And especially, why do the younger people come? They are disgusted with what this city has become. I'm here because they need me. Haggar: Curses! They were just deprived of their places. I'll definately put this city back in order!! Belger: Good! I'm glad that you are ready to fight... Now let's see who is better suited to be the leader! Cody's FF1 boss dialogues Battle with Damnd Damnd: You're late, Cody! I thought you got scared and ran away. Cody: Mad Gear deserves to be destroyed for this! Damnd: Shut up! You're gonna get yours! Battle with Sodom Sodom victory pose: Come on! I'm Oni Samurai! Cody: Where is Jessica? Sodom: Iza Jinjouni Shoubu! OK? Cody: I will definately beat in your face! Sodom: I feel like slicing people! I like some Sasimi! Feel how sharp my Hocho is! Battle with Edi. E Cody: Has a policeman become a member of Mad Gear? Edi. E: This city is ours! Cody: It's sad how Metro City is so completely corrupted... Edi. E: Shut your mouth up! Get ready! Battle with Rolento Rolento greeting pose: Say it! Who is the real leader!? Cody: Where is Jessica! Rolento: I will stop at nothing to achieve my goal! Cody: So, I have no choice but to defeat you. Rolento: Ha! You have no chance to win! Battle with Abigail Cody: Are you going to stand in my way? Abigail: Don't put me in the same category as that Andre! (Tiamat note: Getting a bit obvious with the Andre the Giant reference, huh, Capcom? ^_~ His name's Andore, not Andre, hehe...) Cody: Where is Jessica!? Abigail: Hey, cool down. (there is a pause in Abigail's speech before he continues) Abigail: She must be having a good time with Belger! Cody: ...WHAT!? I'll slice your tongue for that!! Battle with Belger Cody: Jessica!! Belger: I'm glad you've come. You're the strongest... Cody: Let Jessica go!! Belger: Join with me now, and I will free this woman! Cody: No! I'll rescue Jessica and destroy Mad Gear! Belger: Fine. Then you will both suffer for your actions! Guy's FF1 Boss Dialogues Battle with Damnd Guy: Where is Jessica? Damnd: Hee hee hee. Get lost! Mad Gear controls this city! Guy: Well then, I must meet force with force. Battle with Sodom Sodom victory pose: Come on! I'm Oni Samurai! Sodom to Guy: Oh! A real Ninja comes to challenge me at last!! Guy: Are you another member of Mad Gear?! Sodom: lai-Giri, Kubi-Kiri, Oni-Giri! Samurai! Bonzai! Guy: ...... Sodom: I will slash you with my Nippon Katana! Battle with Edi. E Edi. E: Your face annoys me. Guy: Are you also a member of Mad Gear!? Edi. E: You got a problem with a policeman being in Mad Gear? Guy: You are the worst of the worst! You dishonor us all! Edi. E: You're one wild and crazy man to challenge this big boss guy unarmed!! I'll teach you!! Battle with Rolento Rolento greeting pose: Say it! Who is the real leader!? Guy: !? Rolento: You look like a true warrior! You should join us! Guy: Mad Gear is evil. I destroy evil. Rolento: Have it your way. The enemy must be eliminated. Battle with Abigail Abigail: I'm tired of waiting. Let me perform techniques! Guy: I'll defeat you and rescue Jessica. Abigail: Grab and throw! Grab and throw! Battle with Belger Belger: You have finally reached here. Guy: Jessica!! Belger: Mad Gear is immortal and will only expand. Guy: I will end this madness here and now! Alpha Cody's FF1 Boss Dialogues (SA3 Cody in Jail Clothes fighting through Final Fight, hehehe) Battle with Damnd Cody: I know this place. Damnd: Who are you? Cody: You are...Damnd!! What the heck is happening here? Why am I here!! Damnd: Huh! Did you come alone? What a fool you are! Cody: Well, I've stopped faking hero thing... But I can always kick butt! C'mon punk! Battle with Sodom Sodom victory pose: Come on! I'm Oni Samurai!! Cody: Whew. A Japanse wanna-be, this time? Sodom: YES! I am the Oni Musha. Cody: Um...let me think...you look very familiar, too. Sodom: You are Cody. Let's have a fight for pride! Get ready! Cody: Huh? You know my name? Wait, you are... Sodom: Come on! Battle with Edi. E Edi. E: Huh? An escaped convict! You are under arrest! Cody: C'mon! How can you claim to be part of the law!? Edi. E: Your timing couldn't be better for my career boy! C'mon, kid! Cody: You need a gun to be the big boss guy don't you? Edi. E: You arrogant fool! Battle with Rolento Rolento greeting pose: Say it! Who is the real leader!? Cody: Um. It's strange. I don't remember this way. Rolento: I'll send you back to prison! If you try to resist me, I'll charge you for treason! Cody: Oh yes, I took a shortcut, after beating the policeman. I walked along the coast... Rolento: Listen to me! Cody: That is a good memory. Although, it is different... Battle with Abigail Cody: Oh, yes! This way! I remember having stayed in front of a dog... Abigail: You are too late. Punch me! Go for it! I'll show you my rage! Cody: Yeah, I know. You turn red and make a mad dash, right? Abigail: Ughgh! Cody: Do you still stick to using only one attack pattern? Abigail: Ugaaaah! You arrogant fool! Cody: C'mon! I'm in a good mood today and ready for you! Battle with Belger Cody: Well how nice. What a perfect ending. Belger: Hey! What?! YOU?! Cody?! Is that you?! Cody: Oh! Belger. I'm glad to see you again. Belger: What?! You look like you've found your true calling boy! Cody: I'm going to enjoy this! My fists are ready to kick butt! I can't wait anymore! Belger: Why don't you work for me? Cody: Shut up and fight! I can't be what you want despite how I look... C'mon, let's do this! Fight me! Alpha Guy's FF1 Boss Dialogues Battle with Damnd Guy: Where am I now... Damnd: Hee hee hee. Get lost! Mad Gear controls this city! Guy: Umm? This is all too familiar... Damnd: Less chat, more chop! Battle with Sodom Sodom victory pose: Come on! I'm Oni Samurai! Guy: It's you again... That means I am in... Metro City in 1989! Sodom: METRO CITY? YES! THIS IS METRO CITY! Guy: Why am I in 1989...Oh...I see! I'm here to rescue Jessica!! Sodom: Come on! I will kiru you!! Battle with Edi. E Guy: Hmm...I knew that you would be next. Edi. E: Only a fool would stand against the Mad Gear! Guy: Give up now. You cannot win. Edi. E: Ha! You gotta be joking boy! Guy: You are wasting my time and your life... It is just so obvious. Edi. E: You're a funny man! I will shoot you! Battle with Rolento Rolento greeting pose: Say it! Who is the real leader!? Guy: I can't understand the reason for my being here... Rolento: You must respect your superior! Guy: Am I here because there are things that I should learn from the past? Rolento: Adjust your attitude... Guy: There is no other option but to go forward... Battle with Abigail Guy: I wonder if Cody has come here as well. Abigail: You are too late! I'm tired of waiting. Guy: I hope Cody gets himself together here. Abigail: I heard you don't pay attention to others, but I didn't expect this! You'll pay for ignoring me! Battle with Belger Guy: As I thought, Jessica is here. Belger: Who are you? You are not listed... Guy: Maybe... I'm not the same person I was back then. (pause in Guy's speech) Guy: I'm wearing new shoes! Belger: ..... (pause in Belger's speech) Belger: Anyway, I'm not going to let you live. Things I learned from this: Guy beat Sodom (we already know this, though) Guy beat Rolento, probably Cody beat Edi. E (no wonder why Edi. E hates him so much) Cody skipped the industrial area right to the bay area (either that or that's a reference to how the Super Nintendo Final Fight 1 didn't have the Industrial area stage in it) Cody beat Abigail Rolento says to Guy that he's Guy's true master because Rolento is arrogant as well as authoritarian military and sees himself as everyones' superior. Also, he offered to Guy to join Mad Gear. Belger offered to Cody to join Mad Gear, which would be foreshadowing to how Cody really is more neutral than a hero. Mad Gear would be just the right place for him in terms of how all he does is fight, but Cody of course just has a feeling that it really isn't right for him. I LOVE the sharp contrast between the attitudes of SFA3 Cody and regular Cody. You can really see how he's changed over time when he realized that he really was in everything for the fight and that he really wasn't a hero. That was really well done, and suddenly Cody seems like a really interesting character to me. Like... vigilante 'the fight is his life' character with a really dark twist. Of course, Guy wishes he would turn back from that life as seen in SFA3 Guy's dialogues in FF1, but we already knew that from SFA3, anyway. And... of course, Abigail is basically nothing but a beefed up Andore, even though he doesn't want you to think that about him ^_~ Though, blarg, darn Capcom. FF1 was supposed to take place in 1987, not 1989. I don't know what's up with SFA3 Guy telling Sodom it's 1989. Maybe they mixed that up with how Final Fight 1 was originally released in 1989. At least they got rid of the 'sometime in the 90's' sentence in the introduction. Posted by Berias on 12:16:2001 05:31 AM: "Shut your mouth up!" That's classic. All of Sodom's quotes were too hard to understand. Nothing was as good as "Bureiko!" or "...Please don't touch my moustache!" Thanks anyway Posted by Siegfried on 12:16:2001 07:54 PM: Cool. Is it completely impossible that FFO _does_ take place in 1989 though? Then again SFA Guy would have been BEFORE that... For what they're worth - some character ages (in 1987 or 1989): Guy: 24 Cody: 22 Haggar: 46 Still, I like this game. A nice mixture of classic and new. But they really should have redrawn everyone (or pasted SFA sprites in). That would have been an easy way to later put Haggar in SFA3 for GBA. It's not like they need to have hundreds of frames for everyone. And Alpha Guy and Cody should have all their moves in some way... Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:16:2001 10:22 PM: Ages are good^^ Coolness. I wish Capcom published the ages of most of the Street Fighter Alpha characters, though I suppose you can gleem a few from a little research (Cody, Guy, the Dolls, Sakura) Yea, I wish the game had redrawn sprites, too. That would have been fun. It's wierd seeing Sodom's official SFA3 artwork when he talks to you, then fighting the old oooooold school sprite of Sodom, which doesn't match the official SFA3 art of him very well for obvious reasons. Ditto with Rolento. The new art of the other bosses and of FF1 Guy, FF1 Cody, and Haggar is pretty good when they do their dialogues, though again, it doesn't really match the sprites very well. Edi. E also has an SFA3 sprite in SFA3, albeit Capcom would have had to make some new animations for that sprite of course... Yea, Alpha Guy and Alpha Cody sadly don't have any new moves. They're ridiculously powerful, though. Alpha Guy is basically Guy with a lot more stamina and damage to his attacks, apparently, while Alpha Cody does insane damage compared to regular Cody. Other than that, though, they're basically the same as their regular counterparts in terms of moves they have, even if the animation looks sliiightly different. Yea, I don't think it could have happened in 1989. SFA2 obviously happened AFTER Final Fight 1 since Mad Gear is already brought down, then, and SFA2 also happens at around the same time as Final Fight Revenge, which if taken for canon, also happened after Mad Gear was brought down in FF1. Oh yea, here's the rest of the dialogue. The ending is the same old thing (though now I realize that Cody was unconsciously lying to Jessica when he told her he was leaving to fight evil. He was really leaving just to... well, fight:P). The introduction has some small details that I think changed from previous introductions to Final Fight, though (Guy not knowing Jessica until Cody told him about her, for one thing, I believe). Introduction (Map of Metro City) Metro City, a well known Crime Capital, has been ruled by violence and death for many years. A fact which the newly elected mayor and former Street Fighter, Mike Haggar, plans to change. At the center of the problem is the huge gang known as Mad Gear. Mad Gear controls all of the major criminal activity in the city. When they learned of Haggar's plans, they took immediate action to bring this new mayor under their control. In 1989. (Haggar in his office on the phone) Haggar: Hello? Mike Haggar here. Phone: Hee hee hee, Mr. Haggar. So pleased to make your acquaintance. I believe you know who I am! Don't hang up! We have a little business proposition for you... Your daughter for your cooperation. And we'll throw in the regular monthly bonus to your salary we offered before. Haggar? What?! What happened to Jessica? Who is this?! Phone: Not so fast, Mike. Turn on your TV. (Haggar turns on the TV. On the screen is Jessica tied up) Haggar: You fiend! What have you done to her? Phone: Nothing yet...but we will if you don't cooperate. Listen to reason. Why make your job difficult? (Damnd appears on the TV, laughing) Damnd: Just let us do as we please like the mayor before you did (Screen of "CAPCOM presents" appears) (Screen of Cody with Guy apparently back from training) Cody: What?! Jessica was kidnapped?! Guy: Who is Jessica? Cody: She is my childhood friend. The Mad Gears must pay! Guy: What a dirty trick! I will help you out. (Title screen with "Final Fight One" appears) Ending for all characters (Belger is knocked out the window and goes splat) (Haggar holding Jessica) Jessica: Oh father! I was so scared... Haggar: I'm so glad to see they didn't hurt you. I'm so sorry, Jessica. I thought I'd lost you like I lost your mother. I'll never let anything bad happen to you again. Jessica: I love you father. (Credits roll as Guy and Cody are walking back through the level. Finally, Jessica catches up to them. Guy stops and turns to face her but Cody keeps walking) Jessica: Cody! (Guy jumps in front of Cody, who still hasn't turned around, and punches and knocks him down so Jessica can catch up. Guy then jumps away) Jessica: Where are you going? How can you just walk away now? Cody: I want to stay here with you Jessica, but I can't... not while evil still stalks the streets. Jessica: Oh Cody... (Jessica kisses Cody as "END" appears in the lower right corner) Posted by shin-ryu-long on 12:16:2001 11:17 PM: i know this doesn't have much to do with the sf story line, but some guy on a ryu web page said ryu was created by a guy named " shoei okano" is that true or false? on the staff credits, it does say on the special thanks section "shoei" Posted by Golden Dragon on 12:17:2001 03:11 AM: I thought everyone knew their ages. Thanks for the dialogue. Peace out. Posted by Siegfried on 12:17:2001 12:14 PM: Well, Hugo has a sprite as well ^_^. And Poison, but she wouldn't be in the US version anyway (LAME!). If only Capcom could be a little more creative and not always take the short road... Posted by Golden Hell on 12:17:2001 06:08 PM: Looks like the thread is back where it belongs, it seems. Final Fight in '89? Hmmmm...Well, I guess they're either basing it on the original release date of the game or this is now the new official Final Fight storyline timeframe. Considering the dialogue occurred during Alpha Guy's scenarios (which seemed very non-canon), I am leaning more towards Capcom just using the old FF release date. However, can Final Fight, set in 1989, still work with the SF dates we had already discussed. I think it was pretty much agreed that SF goes something like this (please correct me if I'm wrong): 1987 - SF 1989(?) - SFA/SFA2 1990 - SFA3 1993 - SSF2T 1998 - SF3 So, can a 1989 FF still work? Does Final Fight 2 actually occur 1 year after FF (which would make it set in 1990)? Is it possible that it could have happened, say, a few months after FF (so that FF2 still occurred in 1989 - which would explain Guy's disappearance in the game - he was busy with SFA2, also in 1989)? I mean, as an example, perhaps FF took place February 1989 and FF2 and SFA2 occurred September 1989. I guess it could still work, but I think I prefer having Final Fight set at an earlier date. Oh well, I'm just glad that they got rid of that "sometime in the 1990s" line. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:17:2001 09:09 PM: SFA2 takes place during 1988, not 1989, so there's still no room for Final Fight to take place in 1989, sadly. SFA2 fits more in conjunction with Final Fight 2, I believe (Final Fight 2 and SFA2 both have Mad Gear trying to make a comeback, and Guy's storyline in both is that he's away training to be a Bushin master). Alpha Guy's dialogues seemed uncanon? Which ones do you mean? ^^ I know his dialogue with Abigail is a reference to how he wishes Cody would reform, which is Cody's plot in SFA3 (a plot which ends with Guy realizing he can't change Cody). Though... I do think that Guy really probably did meet Jessica before Final Fight 1 (his ending in Final Fight Guy seems to indicate that he at least knew Jessica a little, as does his dialogue with Belger in Final Fight One), so I'm wondering what's up with his 'who's Jessica?' quote in the introduction... blarg. 1989 WAS the date when Final Fight 1 was released as a game, though, which is why I'm thinking they're accidentally going by that date when they say 1989... Wow, this thread is in the fanfiction section now? All this moving around is starting to get confusing Oo Posted by Golden Hell on 12:17:2001 10:32 PM: Well, since SFA2 takes place in '88 that kind of throws everything off then. Which is why I said preferred FF to have taken place earlier then '89 By saying Alpha Guy's lines were non-canon, I just meant that the things he says are weird, too weird, to be considered official. It sounds like present-day Guy was sent to the past or something. Like what you wrote when he fights Sodom: Guy: It's you again... That means I am in... Metro City in 1989! and: Guy: Why am I in 1989...Oh...I see! I'm here to rescue Jessica!! Just a little too strange for my tastes. Its pretty funny though, especially his line about new shoes. Posted by Azrael-sama on 12:17:2001 10:53 PM: And now we're in...Fan Fiction Library... I think someone really has a grudge against this thread... Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:18:2001 12:30 AM: Ooooh. Yea, Alpha Guy and Alpha Cody are definately just easter egg storylines^^ They both got timewarped to the past in a fit of ridiculousness. That's why it's so hilarious^^ Capcom did that to show just how silly and whacked that is, and that's why their plots are so unserious. However, Alpha Cody and Alpha Guy DO give good insights into what happened in the canon for regular Cody and regular Guy. For example, in Alpha Cody's fight with Rolento, Alpha Cody reminisces about how in the past, he never went to the industrial section and went to the bay area right after beating Edi. E. This confirms that in the actual canon, regular Cody beat Edi. E then skipped past the industrial section to the bay area in the actual official story, because Alpha Cody is remembering that as what happened to him in the past for the real Cody, and of course the real Cody going through Final Fight DID happen, so I'm going to assume that Alpha Cody wasn't lying when he talked about that past and that that past is what actually happened in the cannon storyline. I love the new shoes line^^ Hehehe... it's also funny how Alpha Cody and Alpha Guy are so confused as to why they've been teleported back to the past that they stop paying attention to the bosses later on. Rolento to Cody: Listen to me!! Yeesh. I'm trying to figure out what makes this thread worthy of being in the fanfic section I mean, sure, it's helpful to prospective fanfic writers but that really isn't the thread's main purpose... Posted by Golden Dragon on 12:18:2001 12:54 AM: I could be wrong, but it doesn't make sense to me that FF1 took place in 1989. I agree with Tiamat 'bout Capcom using the old FF1 release date. I don't think they were taking the timeline into consideration when writing the dialogue. I think the only way it would work is if FF1 took place in 1987, which is where it's suppose take place, right? Acoording to Saiki, the final downfall of the Mad Gear gang took place 1 year before Alpha 3. The Mad Gear was taken out for good in Final Fight 2, right? So that means Final Fight 2 took place in 1989. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:18:2001 08:32 AM: http://www.geocities.com/lordbahamu...Fplotguide.html Well, here it is. What do you think? Currently, I need to update the table of contents and updates section, various Third Strike endings (Necro's and Dudley's), more information on Gill (what was the name of his organization again? Was it the Illuminatti, then retroactively changed to something else?), and... any miscellaneous canon details or corrections I missed, I guess. This doesn't replace the SFA3 FAQ (that FAQ has analyses on how the SFA3 story specifically works) but it does replace large portions of it (mainly the characters list). I'm considering adding an "Organizations" section, too. And damn, looking over it, information on SF3 characters is almost as sparse as information on SF1 exclusive characters... Oh, Dudley's father's car is a Jaguar, right? And is Makoto's father dead? Damn, I don't know much about the SF3 storyline... Oh, and this should give a reasonably good synopsis of how the Final Fight games fit into the timeline, I'm hoping^^ Posted by Siegfried on 12:18:2001 03:33 PM: I was just wondering - are the weird FF names a result of a bad katakana-english translation? Andore is actually Andre, but spelled in katakana. Rolento could be Laurent, or even Lawrence. (Lawrence of Arabia... hmmm...) Damnd could be Damned, still a weird name though. Edi. E should be Eddy E. Guy is a strange name for a Japanese... maybe Gai? G. Oriber could be G. Oliver. Posted by Siegfried on 12:18:2001 03:58 PM: Doll Note to Tiamat: Cammy speaks Robot Talk in her CvS2 final battle talks as well. I'll check if she does it in her quotes as well. In any case, Cammy SHOULD be Delta Red Cammy by this time... Even if the game and storyline isn't official, I think the character traits are. Most characters behave like it was just another tournament somewhere around 1994-95 (see below). Another CvS2 note: Could the game be official with only a few modifications? By using first Bison and Geese, and then Akuma and Rugal as bosses it seems they mirrored first the early tournaments (SF2, FF1, FF3 etc) in 1992-1993. Then for CvS2 they used the 1994-1995 versions where Akuma and Rugal were bosses (note - the year the games were released, not when they took place). Then again KoF'96 states that Kyo and company killed Omega Rugal on Blacknoah in 1995 - he could never meet up with Akuma. And Bison is obviously dead since 1993. But Haohmaru and Hibiki... nah, forget this. Just me rambling but I don't want to delete it now ^_^. EDIT: Tiamat, where did you get confirmation that Zangief was gay? We know about Eagle's, but Zangief only has that "dislikes pretty young girls" thing. Or? Also, a minor typo that I remember after reading through that monster of a FAQ - again - under Sodom you wrote "Sean's katana" which is obviously wrong ^_^. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:18:2001 07:17 PM: Yea, I should change that robot speak thing. That one's obviously canon, even if I wouldn't like to admit it:P I saw Cammy's CvS2 ending, too. ....which makes Twelve even more of a rip off of the Dolls than before but ah well I heard from someone that Andore was purposefully changed to Andore from Andre due to Andre's death, though admittingly, that wasn't a very reliable source. Hmm... those would be good notes to add as possible conjectures, so I'll add them. ^^ Yea, lots of the Final Fight names are messed up, to say the least Oo Lawrence of Arabia? That would actually fit Rolento a pretty good amount, I think, though his official bio states that he's from America, though. Could still have meant to be a reference, though... especially since his henchman, El Gado, is Arabian. And yea, generally speaking, Capcom uses the VS games to show character traits that are official, even if the storylines aren't. Sometimes they'll go back on it, but it only happens VERY rarely (Cammy in X-Men vs Street Fighter is the only big one that I can think of where she acts OOC, and that's because that game came out before Capcom had fully fleshed out where they wanted to go with Shadaloo Cammy, it seems). This is also why I feel heavily that Sakura has given up fighting, even though Capcom won't flat out state it, themselves Zangief being gay was confirmed by Saiki somewhere in this thread Not sure which page, though, of course... oi. Muahahaha, you shall have to FEAR my ability to copy and paste and rehash old FAQs and claim it's a new one!!!! Ack! Though that's what I get for doing Sean's bio right before getting back to work on finishing up Sodom's... Thanks^^ Well, at least the characters' individual storylines throughout their Street Fighter tenures is a lot more coherent, now... Ramblings are fun, hehe ^^ Though I admittingly really don't know much about the KOF storyline. Know some outlines, but that's about it Got Dudley's Third Strike ending. Currently searching for Necro's and Oro's. Also need the name of Gill's organization (it used to be the Illuminatti then Capcom decided to change it? I forget) as well as the date of Doomsday according to Gill's organization and such (another thing that I think Capcom retroactively changed, once). Oh, and any SF3 info I might have missed. Also, anyone know what officially happened to Lee after Street Fighter 1? Is Lee still around with Yun and Yang or did he dissappear? Cammy's SF2 Revival Ending from Cammyfan.com Vega/Bison: I never would have imagined that I could be beaten by a mere copy of myself... Cammy: Vega/Bison... what do you mean? Who am I? Vega/Bison: Hmm, listen to me my sweet little Cammy. You are just a copy generated from my DNA! Cammy: ...No! Vega/Bison: I had you inserted into the British Empire for my own reasons, but I never imagined that you would lose your memory. Cammy: No... You're lying! It can't be true! Vega/Bison: I don't need you anymore. It is time for you to go... Cammy: What should I do now...? Cammy: Hey, all of you! Delta Red: It's all over now. Let's go home. Cammy: But I... Delta Red: Your past doesn't matter to us. It is how you decide to define your future that matters! Delta Red: And besides what we're friends right? Cammy: Thank you all... The time has come for the good soldiers to return home into the arms of their loved ones... Ack!!! Now I'm wondering what's up with him saying he planted Cammy into the British Government... and I wish the Video Game museum would put down everyones' SF2 Revival endings... Posted by G.Bonne on 12:19:2001 12:41 AM: If Z.Gief is gay...maybe that explains why he puts your face against his crutch when he does the spining piledriver or any other grab... thats really weird ,ZANGIEF GAY!! LMAO Posted by Golden Dragon on 12:19:2001 04:43 AM: Tiamat Oh, Dudley's father's car is a Jaguar, right? Yes, right. And is Makoto's father dead? Yes. His name is Masaru/Maseru & I believe Makoto's last name MIGHT be Rindou. You're right 'bout the SF3 character profiles. They're so sparse I think those idiots at videogames.com actually got their bios RIGHT. You know, http://www.videogames.com/features/universal/sfhistory/ Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:19:2001 06:06 AM: Thanks, Golden Dragon^^ Oh yea! I remember all this Street Fighter 3 info. I heard it before... but wasn't sure where I could get it again. Erm... is it safe for me to assume the majority of Video Gamespot's SF3 stuff is canon? Of course, their stuff is way off for the other games, but most of their SF3 stuff seems like basic character stuff that I myself really would have known if I actually knew a decent amount of SF3 storyline in the first place... Posted by Ultima on 12:19:2001 08:08 AM: Goddamn. It took me forever to find this thread. Fan Fiction Library of all places... From TiamatRoar: > I heard from someone that Andore was purposefully changed to Andore from Andre due to Andre's death, though admittingly, that wasn't a very reliable source. Hmm... those would be good notes to add as possible conjectures, so I'll add them. ^^ Yea, lots of the Final Fight names are messed up, to say the least Oo I heard that Andre was changed to Andore so as to not draw attention to the fact that he looks like Andre the Giant and hence wouldn't be sued. Pretty much the same reason why M.Bison's name got changed. > Lawrence of Arabia? That would actually fit Rolento a pretty good amount, I think, though his official bio states that he's from America, though. Could still have meant to be a reference, though... especially since his henchman, El Gado, is Arabian. I think Rolento's officially Italian, actually. I forget where I got that notion from, but if it means anything, the crappy US SF cartoon had Rolento with an Italian accent, and I seem to remember that as being correct. I could be wrong though. > Got Dudley's Third Strike ending. Currently searching for Necro's and Oro's. What do you need to know? Necro's 3S ending just has Necro escaping from.. somewhere.. atop a train with that freaky chick friend of his (I forget her name.. Elle?). Oro's just has him remiscing atop a big rock about how weak everyone was except for "that kid with the red headband". While he's thinking about Ryu, Ryu is actually lifting the bolder than Oro is sitting on. > Also need the name of Gill's organization (it used to be the Illuminatti then Capcom decided to change it? I forget) as well as the date of Doomsday according to Gill's organization and such (another thing that I think Capcom retroactively changed, once). It's the other way around. In NG and 2I, Gill's organization was nameless. in 3S, it was changed to the Illuminati (bleh). The date was the year 2200. AFAIK it's not a "doomsday" though - it's just the deadline that Gill's organization wanted to bring eutopia to the planet by. I'm not sure if there's an actual reason why they chose this paricular date or not. > Also, anyone know what officially happened to Lee after Street Fighter 1? Is Lee still around with Yun and Yang or did he dissappear? Last I heard, Lee was dead. To Golden Dragon: I don't recall Makoto's father being dead, but I could be wrong. Posted by Geocide on 12:19:2001 08:08 AM: Tiamat...on the subject of SF3: If I get the time, I'll post up stories of the characters in SF3: NG taken from The Ultimate Guide to Fighting Games 97 and Megafan....that is if they haven't already been mentioned in here. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:19:2001 08:26 AM: Oh, hey, Geocide, that's be really helpful, I think. Would be coolness^^ I need to get confirmations here... SF3 was only touched upon a little in this thread so far (well, a little compared to everything else). Ah, thanks, Ultima. Yea, the suing thing is probably very likely... too bad Capcom will never flat out state, themselves, probably :P *adds to plot guide* Rolento... maybe Capcom retroactively changed it, but now he's American, apparently (Do you fight Rolento in Italy in Final Fight 2?). His official bio states that he is, and also, in Final Fight One, he warns Alpha Cody that if Alpha Cody resists him, he'll get Alpha Cody arrested for treason. Obviously, Cody can't be treasonous against Italy when he's American, so Rolento would have to be American to make a threat like that, I think (on a side note, I guess that means that, like Edi. E, Rolento still has his regular job and position, apparently) Just for fun, from my plot guide: "Rolento was a member of the US Army before he snapped, went renegade, and joined Mad Gear. FF1's dialogue actually hints, however, that he still IS a member of the army, though. Which would be similar to how Edi. E is still a policeman. The only game where he is broken off from the military is Street Fighter EX series, and that series isn't canon. Sure, he laid siege to Metro City with tanks, but it seems like you can get away with ANYTHING in Metro City so long as you aren't knocked out of a window." I swear, I'm having too much fun with that window thing... um, Retu WAS knocked out the window at the end of Final Fight 2, right? So that's Necro's and Oro's Third Strike endings? Coolness. Thanks^^ That helps a lot for conjecturing where and what Necro and Oro are doing, now. And... kinda adds a little more to what Ryu might be doing right now, too. Ugh. Illuminatti... blarg. Strange strange Capcom. Well, I thought that Gill was meant to be the savior when Doomsday came and he'd lead the chosen to the new Utopia, as hinted by his Double Impact ending, but Capcom may have retroactively changed that come Third Strike (they seem to have changed a lot regarding Gill come Third Strike). The text from Gill's Double Impact ending: "When the sun sets on the Soliton Mountain, the black moon will break into seven pieces and fall on the people of "Ultania". Nothing can prevent this.... Death and destruction will violate the land. Misery and suffering will assault the people.... Then, after 130 days of nothingness, a boy who controls the elements will come to save the people." -From the Book of Miraha 3:11- Lee's dead? I heard he was dead... Figured it'd make the most sense. Hmm... will go with that, then. Oi... Makoto's dad... I need to work this stuff out... *PMs Saiki to inform him where the thread is, now* At least now that this thread is in the fanfiction section, it's like a permanent sticky, considering how many posts pop up, here... Posted by Geocide on 12:19:2001 08:48 AM: Megafan: Thorough bio. TUGFG: Conflicting information, sometimes something not mentioned in Megafan (EX: Megafan says Alex is from New York, TUGFG goes in depth by saying Manhatten) -Alex- Megafan: Alex was born in the USA and currently rsides in New York. A troubled youth, his parents died when he was a child and his only mentor is Tom (his father's friend). Tom, the war veteran, runs the gym that Alex attends, and also travels to military bases to instruct soldiers in close range combat. Tom and Alex seem to get along, indeed the two of them live together along with Patricia (Alex's 14 year old daughter). Alex's surface demeanor is insensitive, and his straight-talking has lead him into numerous fights, but his inner softness and love for his daughter shine through to those who really to know him. However, once angered, Alex is quick and powerful despite his build, using throws and punches to take an opponent down. TUGFG: Alex is a brawler from Manhatten who left home at a young age to train with Tom, a retired U.S. soldier and friend of the family. Alex now fights to avenge Tom's defeat at the hands of a mysterious man. ----------- -Sean- Megafan: Sean was born to a middle income family in Brazil. One quarter Japanese, Sean's instincts lead him to become fascinated by Ken's fighting style. Following him from one international tournament to another, Sean's quest was to become Ken's student. His unwavering attitude and competitive spirit meant that he never gave up, and he gained a competent but unperfected fighting style, wishing one day to unleash his own original combination attack. Finally, Ken agrees to teach Sean, and they set off on a spiritual journey. "Even if I lose today, I can still win tomorrow!" explains Sean to those questioning his dedication. This training finally pays dividends, as one day Sean exclaims, "The power of the Hado... I think I'm getting it!". With this heightened ability, Sean is nearing the power of the fighter he wants to become. Old martial artists may see their past shining in Sean's eyes... TUGFG: He was born and raised in Brazil. He is a great athelete and comes from an ordinary Brazilian family. Sean has always been impressed by Ken's fighting style and wishes to study under Ken. Sean hates to lose, is very aggressive and has the ability to surprise opponents with a fatal blow. -------- More when I get the time. Posted by Golden Hell on 12:19:2001 01:53 PM: I just read the revisions on the faq, TiamatRoar. I like it. Good job, man The addition of the story summaries for each game was a good idea. Listing the bosses from Final Fight 2 reminded me of a list I made a long time ago. After some searching I was able to find it - a list of all Mad Gear and Skull Cross members. I basically took the US names cause I never played the Japanese versions but I'm almost positive the names are the same. FINAL FIGHT Bosses - Damnd, Sodom, Edi. E, Abigail, Rolento, Belger Dug, Bred Jake, Simons Axl, Slash J, Two. P Holly Wood, El Gado Wong Who, G. Oriber, Bill Bull Poison, Roxy Andore (Jr., U., F.) FINAL FIGHT 2 Bosses - Won Won, Freddie, Bratken, Philippe, Rolent(?), Retu Mic, Mark Schot, Jack Jony, Atlas Elias, Eliot, Joe Elijah, Bull Mary, Eliza Elick Andore (Jr., G.) FINAL FIGHT 3 Bosses - Dave: Another crooked cop Callman: Looks like a bouncer Caine: You fight him in a scrap dump Drake: Crazy sailor Wong: You fight him in a Chinese restaurant Stray: Has iron gloves and a trenchcoat Black: Skull Cross leader (doesn't fall out a window) Ray, Billy G, Johnny Dirk, Rick Fat Jack, Arby Joe, Fritz May Hunter Andore I'm not counting Billy and Sid from the US version of FF for the SNES. Also, it would appear that only Mad Gear leaders fall out of windows. Black was electrocuted and had the building blow up on him. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:19:2001 07:10 PM: Geocide: Hmm... well... those seem to fit pretty well. Though there are a few nitpicky things that I think they got mixed up there. Sean's 1/2 Japanese, not 1/4th, and Patricia I could have sworn was Tom's daughter, not Alex's... I'm pretty sure I can rely on the general information there though, at least, so those should be helpful, I think (confirmation would be good if can get it, though). Thanks^^ Golden Hell: Thanks for the comments^^ Oops, yea, Retu was knocked out of a window in Japan, not in Metro City. I should probably change that to "It looks like Mad Gear members" instead... Wow, thanks^^ That's coolness... will help a lot for the organizations section. Yeeesh, didn't think they'd make Andore a Skull Cross Gang member too. Oi. And oooouch, it seems like being the boss of the gang is always a crappy position, whether you're knocked out of a window or not Oo Ultima has arts of the Final Fight 3 bosses in his Street Fighter RPG page. Stray looks kinda cool there, I think, though I never played Final Fight 3 so I wouldn't know what most of them look like in the game. Posted by Geocide on 12:19:2001 09:37 PM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Though there are a few nitpicky things that I think they got mixed up there. Sean's 1/2 Japanese, not 1/4th, and Patricia I could have sworn was Tom's daughter, not Alex's... I won't argue on anything...because I haven't heard anything different anywhere else that I could actually count on as being reliable. -------- -Elena- Megafan: The only daughter of an African tribal chief, Elena's childhood embraced the stunning and spiritual atmosphere of the Savanna. Elena's father obtained a doctrate from a French University, and Elena's dream was to study abroad like her father. Elena is an emotional woman, ever thankful to nature, and she uses Capoeira to take advantage of nature's gift, her strong and long legs. This unusual fighting technique employs dancing and legwork; perfect for catching her more masculine opponents off guard. In a crescendo of rhythmical and ceaseless movements, Elena strikes without warning and rains kicks into a foe. Elena is a spiritual soldier for her people, with a wild side hidden behind a smile. TUGFG: Elena is the daughter of a great African tribal leader. She is dearly loved by her father as she is an only daughter. She fights using the Capoera style, which places special emphasis on the use of the legs. Elena has very powerful legs, which make up for a lack of upper body strength. -------------- -Yun & Yang- Megafan: Both Yun and Yang were born in Hong Kong, seperated from their natural parents shortly afterwards. Moving to Shanghai, the two were brought up by their resturant-owning Uncle. In such a business, the Uncle inevitably came into contact with the criminal underworld, and both children were befriended by the eight powerful mafia bosses. These Godfathers helped Yun and Yang to become young leaders in the City, being taught Chinese martial arts by their grandfather. Their fighting syle is to avoid a foe's attack by a quicker ttack, before employing Hakkei to crush them in a single blow. Yun's techniques are a sequence of lightning-fast attacks, while Yang beats down enemies with wave-like motions. TUGFG: They are twin kung fu masters from HOng Kong. They were raised by their grandfather, who taught them martial arts at a young age. Yun is the more responsible of the two; a born leader. He can be very impulsive though. Yang is calmer and looks at things more subjectively instead of rushing in. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:20:2001 02:24 AM: OOOOOH. I see. No wonder why these are slightly off. These are from Capcom of USA's descriptions. I can tell because it says that Gen is Yun and Yang's grandfather/uncle (Uncle? Where'd that come from? ). At least, I'm positive that the one it mentions raising them, it means Gen, since Gen was the restaurant owner and I can't think of any other case where they'd have close family... argh, well, that's the only one I heard Capcom of USA screwing up. ....blarg, at least, I think it was a screw up by Capcom of USA. I know for a fact that Gen is not their Grandfather though... ack! Hmm... well, these are good for the basic information at least. I'll put most of this there then go do some digging... Posted by Geocide on 12:20:2001 05:30 AM: I always thought that Lee was Gen's son...and Lee was Yun and Yang's father. If that were true, then Gen would be their grandfather. But the above bio just says grandfather...not revealing him to be Gen. So even if Gen isn't the grandfather, they were still taught by their grandfather... Basicaly, their grandfather taught them how to fight and their uncle raised them. I've never read anywhere that Gen was a resturant owner. So I'm positive this isn't a slipup. Plus, I think the MegaFan bio is translated stuff from CoJ. The TUGFG seems more like CoA's handy work. I remember reading that Lee settled down after SF1 and had children. Well, if that's true...then he isn't dead. He simply settled down and got married, and had kids (Yun and Yang). Makes sense to me. That's what I choose to follow. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:20:2001 07:18 AM: I don't really know anything about Street Fighter 3, so I really couldn't judge, but Gen IS the owner of a restaurant (which is also how Gen himself has contact with the underworld). It's called Genhanten (or something like that. The Plot Guide has the correct spelling), and it's in the Plot Guide, and you can find out about it in All About Capcom. Lee being Gen's son was either something Capcom of USA made up or fancanon, but it's not true in Japan, I'm positive. Dunno where the Uncle thing came from, though. That's interesting. I should look into that... Posted by Siegfried on 12:20:2001 10:51 AM: Yun and Yang were born before SF1. It's only 11 years before SF3 after all. Posted by Ultima on 12:21:2001 01:58 AM: quote: Originally posted by Geocide -Alex- Tom and Alex seem to get along, indeed the two of them live together along with Patricia (Alex's 14 year old daughter). I didn't see anyone address this, but I will. This is wrong. Patricia is Tom's daughter, not Alex's. And I think it's official that Y/Y are Lee's sons. BUt Lee is supposedly not Gen's son, so Gen is not Y/Y's grandfather. *Checks Tiamat's post* Whoops. I missed that. BUt I thought Sean was 1/4 Japanese as well... Posted by Geocide on 12:21:2001 09:06 PM: -Dudley- Megafan: Dudley was born in England to a wealthy family. Dudley's father, in addition to being a successful businessman, was also a great athelete, and this lead to a very wealthy upbringing for the youngster. Once in college, however, Dudley was shocked to hear his father's business had failed. In an attempt to turn the tide of his family's fortunes, Dudley turned to professional boxing, and began to rise through the ranks, using his prize money to buy back the wealth that his father had lost due to the betrayal of another. Although small for a heavy-weight boxer, Dudley's amazingly powerful technique and speed are used to devestating effect. He now seeks to finis his opponents in an appropriate style. TUGFG: He's a heavyweight boxer from Britain. His father was a successful athelete and businessman, so grew up in an affluent family. He became a boxer in college but he is small for a heavyweight. He compensates by being fast and very skilled. ------------------------- -Ken- Megafan: Ken was born in Japan, but now lives in the USA with his wife Eliza and son, Mel. With his wife's permission, Ken can enter martial arts competitions, but chooses only those where Ryu also enters as they have shared a great deal together. Such is Ken's skill, that some observers have noticed rising flames in his ruthless attacks. Ryu and Ken are the best of friends, but sworn rivals, and despite ken's family, Ken's heart and soul is still with Ryu. Ken practices every day while still thinking of his sparring partner, until finally the two meet in Japan. Suiting up in his red gi, his soul stirs and they confront each other. Without the fighting spirit, Ken cannot be himself. TUGFG: Ken is both Ryu's friend and rival. They trained under the same master. Now tied down to domestic life, Ken has agreed to honor his wife Eliza's request not to enter a martial arts tournament unless Ryu also participates. Ken's style is seemingly reckless but never to be underestimated. Posted by Berias on 12:22:2001 08:16 AM: *waits for Q information* What the hell is this doing in the "Fanfiction" section? Why add insult to injury? Posted by Golden Dragon on 12:23:2001 12:33 AM: Tiamat In your Final Fight 2 summary, you say Cody's whereabouts are never explained or given, but I think they are. In the US version of the FF2 instruction manual, it says Cody & Jessica are on vacation. Then again, it's the US version, so I guess there's a chance that could be false & you're assumption is correct. Peace out. I agree with you on the idea of mentioning Haggar as a wrestler in Hugo's ending to be an "easter egg". We could always be wrong, but considering Mike Haggar's 60-61 right now & in his late 50's back in 1998, I think the idea of him going back to pro wrestling's a stretch. Btw, when did Haggar's term as Mayor end? I know you have the date in your FAQ, but I don't feel like searching for it right now. Thanks. p.s. Does anyone know what happen's in Eagle's ending? Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:23:2001 01:27 AM: Whoa, it says that for Cody? Cool. I really don't know much about Final Fight past Final Fight 1... :P Hmm... well, that conflicts with Final Fight Revenge in terms of timeline possibilities, but it's possible that it was either something that CoA made up or a retroactive change by Capcom.... oi. Well, time to put more notes in the faq. Sigh, I wish I could read Japanese... saw All About Capcom for sale once at an anime convention but it's useless if I can't read it:P Haggar's term as Mayor officially ended one year before Street Fighter 2, which would be 1992, which would also be about one year after my guestimate of when Final Fight 3 took place. Eagle's ending? You mean for Capcom vs SNK 2? That's the only game where he has an ending, so far, though I really want to see what he gets in SFA3 Advance, if anything... sadly, not many CvS2 endings have been transcribed at all and none for Eagle that I've been able to find Hmm... for SF3 characters... currently I'll just go with the info that both Megafan and TUGFG mention and don't conflict/doesn't contradict each other, for now. That should work for now... Posted by Saiki on 12:23:2001 09:09 PM: Wow, didn't expect to see this topic goto fanfic section while my computer was down. I would've never found it unless Tiamat PM'd me. Here's some info about Rolento. In All About Capcom, it says that before he was in Mad Gear, he was in the Red Beret I forget who asked but the questions regarding Makoto. Her dad, Masaru is dead and her last name is not Rindo. Oh yeah, Tiamat, that faq is really nice. Anyways, I've got info, thought and guesses to add. I persoanlly think that it was Guile that won the 2nd Street Fighter tournament. Although in SF 3rd, Urien refers to Chunli as the one who took down the organization, Shadowloo was already no more by SF2. And in Chunli's ending in SF2, she says the organization has been destroyed. But in Guile's case, his ending has to happen so he can get over the death of Nash and go back to his family. And Guile was the other main character of SF2. Just my guess though. Abigail does make an apperance in SFZ2. He's in Guy's bg without the makeup. Gouki's cave in SFZ3 is called Kiga Doukutsu or Cave of Kiga. Oh and some other info about Gouki. He's actually saved a little kid that wondered into the SFZ3 cave and almost fell down a cliff. Patricia's nick name is Pat. And Mike Bison's new SF2 Revival ending, he takes over Shadowloo but because he was so stupid lost all his money and power and turned into a bum. Damnd had connections with the FBI. Dudley's dad's car wasn't stolen from Dudley's dad. Dud's dad screwed up with his business and lost everything he owned. Dudley became rich again by boxing and tried to buy back everything that was once his dad's. Makoto's gi that she wears was passed on to her by her father before he died. Q is based off of a character in a manga......that I can't remember the name right now. I'll get back to it when I remember That's about it for now. Man, though, I still don't understand why this is under the fanfic section though....... Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:23:2001 10:36 PM: Hey, Saiki^^ Glad you found the thread. This... is quite the ridiculous place for it, LOL. Whoa, that's some really good info there. Especially Balrog's. I'm wondering if that's a joke, or if that's how Shadaloo actually collapsed after M. Bison was killed. Seems like it could be a combination of both though, so I'll just include it with a disclaimer or something, I imagine. Thanks! Yea, I thought I remembered him being in Guy's background in SFA2. Cool. Too bad the majority of SFA2's background appearances seem to be just easter eggs and nothing more (just look at Ken's stage, hehehe...). SFA3, though, doesn't even seem to have any for the most part... Wow, Guile's a really good point that I haven't thought of, too^^ I'm always one to go with the championship to the one who's ending most relies on defeating the final boss, and you're right that Guile's is it. Hmm... I'll change all the bits in the FAQ about the SF2 championship to say that Guile is also a very likely candidate and give those reasons, then^^ Oh yea! I remember hearing about Damnd's connections to the FBI a long time ago from somewhere, though didn't think much on it since could never figure out what it was about ^^ Gee, the SF3 characters are starting to get a lot more fleshed out, now, at least Though the majority of them still have zilch for connections to previous SF characters Aaaah... now I'm trying to piece together the Lee's. I'm trying to figure out if Lee died, if Gen raised Yun and Yang and for how long and how much he trained them (probably taught them a lot more than Chunli, though, but Lee seems to have taught them stuff too), and how much of Megafan's and TUGFG's statements about them are right... oi, those two probably have the most misconceptions around them of all the SF3 characters, I think... Oi, as if those "AKUMA IS BAD ASS!!!!" Akuma fanbois weren't mad enough when they found that Akuma held back on those that he didn't deem were out to kill him, too, now the child thing... LOL. But I like 'honorable' Akuma a lot more than the one-sided 'HES EVIL!!!!!!!" Akuma that lots of people make him out to be. Posted by Berias on 12:23:2001 11:01 PM: I heard Q is based off of "Wendy" in this animated show called "Day of the Dead". I don't watch anime so I can't remember where I heard it. I have heard that story about Gouki saving some kid from falling off a cliff, but forgot about it till now. That's pretty cool. There's also a picture of him selling fruit(?) to a child in one of the Alpha sketchbooks. Posted by Golden Dragon on 12:24:2001 01:39 AM: I dunno if this helps at all, but here's FF2's beginning story (or introduction) straight from it's instruction manual: It's been several years since peace settled in Metro City. With Cody and Jessica on vacation and Guy training out of town, everything seems to be in order. But recently, Haggar is feeling uneasy after learning the Mad Gear was not completely destroyed. Once again the Mad Gear Gang has emerged and this time they want revenge. They'll stop at nothing to bring Haggar and the entire world down to its knees. This time they kidnapped Guy's master, Genryusai and his daughter, Rena. Now Haggar must travel the 4 corners of the globe to search for Genryusai and Rena. With the help of Maki and Carlos, the reign of the Mad Gear will hopefully be destroyed. Remember, this is from the Final Fight 2 instruction Manual, so you understand why some of the info's different and outdated. And I believe Final Fight 3's plot went a little something like this: The Mad Gear Gang had been taken out for good in FF2 (at the hands of Haggar, Maki and Carlos). With the gang quickly falling apart, they fought within themselves, battling each other until one of them reined supreme. A lot of the city's other gangs joined the fray over control of the streets as well. In the end, the Skull Cross Gang reigned supreme and it was now up to Haggar and Guy to stop them. This also introduces their new allies Lucia and Dean. Dean was asked to join the Skull Cross gang, but he refused so they slaughtered his family and has him seeking revenge. Lucia's a detective in Metro City's Special Crimes Unit (and an old friend of Cody's), who aided Haggar in bringing down the gang as a way of repaying him for clearing her of a corruption charge. Lucia & Dean's hobbies & likes (if they haven't been posted already): Dean Likes: Beef, Driving (fast!) Lucia Morgan Hobby: Cooking (even though she's not too good) Likes: Instant noodles Btw, here are some Boss character bios from CoA's FF1 and FF2 instruction manuals. Remember, since these bios are from the american instrcution manuals, they could always be false, but Final Fight's storyline's so simple it's almost impossible to mistrantslate the plot, lol. Final Fight Boss Characters Thrasher (Damnd) Height: 6'5" Weight: 260 lbs. A big blond bully, Thrasher controls the slums of Metro City. He's not much of a fighter but when he whistles, people listen! Katana (Sodom) Height: 6'1" Weight: 190 lbs The sword swingin' samurai rules over the entire subway of the city. Be careful or he'll cut you down to size! EDI-E Height: 6'3" Weight: 280 lbs. A security guard gone bad, EDI-E controls the West Side territory with and iron fist. But watch out! He's got a gun and he's not afraid to use it. Abigail Height: 6'8" Weight: 280 lbs. With a name like Abigail, he's gotta be tough. And the brawny bruiser is just waiting to bowl you over in the Bay Area. Final Fight 2 Boss Characters Won Won Height: 7'4" Weight: 450 lbs. Won Won was an excellent chinese chef. But after being influenced by the Mad Gear Gang, he has gone rotten. Be careful not to get too close or he'll slice you up and serve you as stir fry! Freddie Height: 6'4" Weight: 408 lbs. While Freddie was in the Navy Seals, he punched out one of his superiors. This lead to his discharge by the Navy. Now as a freelance mercenary, Freddie was hired by the Mad Gear Gang to head their terrorism unit. Bratken Height: 6'7" Weight: 434 lbs. Bratken is a psychotic over-grown boy who loves to play with toys. To have Bratken join the gang, some gang members bribed him by locking him in a room filled with toys. Now he's bored and wants to get out of the room. Don't let him see you or he may think you're a teddy bear. Philippe Height: 5'8" Weight: 148 lbs. Philippe may look like your typical funloving circus clown, but his demented mind has led him to join the Mad Gear Gang. Now he's financially supporting the gang by smuggling illegal items through the circus. Be careful, he may use a cane to walk but he doesn't limp. Rolent (Rolento) Height: 5'9" Weight: 187 lbs. Rolent is another gung-ho reject from the special forces. He's been hired to train the gang members the proper tactics of survival. He's equipped with deadly grenades and he's not afraid to use them. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:30:2001 12:11 AM: LOL!!!! Dean liking driving cars fast and Lucia liking cooking even though she's not good at it seem really funny to me for some reason. That's really cool. Though... wow, with the exception of Rolento, many of the FF1 boss measurements don't seem to match up very well with the ones I got from Saiki (though then again, I'm not very good at metric weight conversions). Course, Capcom of USA screwed up Ryu's and Akuma's measurements, too. I doubt the stuff they translated for the bosses' storylines is wrong though since much of that seems to fit in with the info so far, so tis good^^ Cool, thanks, Golden Dragon ^_^ I heard that Q was a rip off of Tekkaman, myself, whoever that was. Posted by kane_warhead on 12:30:2001 11:52 PM: Is it true Dan and Retsu were the first students before Ryu and Ken? Posted by Clay on 12:31:2001 01:42 AM: Just stopped by to say "hi". This is the first time that I've been on a computer all month, too busy with school, work, and other misc. activities. Hopefully, I'll get a chance to stop by again later this week. Oh yeah, thanks for the PM Tiamat quote: Originally posted by kane_warhead Is it true Dan and Retsu were the first students before Ryu and Ken? Dan was taken in as a student before Ryu and Ken. He's also older than them, so it makes sense. I don't think that Retsu was ever Gouken's student. Just old friends. I also thought that Q's design was based off of Tekkaman, not sure though. Posted by kane_warhead on 12:31:2001 04:31 PM: I read it other sites that evry teacher takes two students at a time. So that's why they say that Retsu and Dan studied together. Posted by TiamatRoar on 12:31:2001 04:42 PM: Retsu is just Gouken's good friend. He is not Gouken's student. This is official, but if you really want the proof, Retsu's too old and his fighting style is obviously Shorinji Kempo, not Ansatsuken/Shotokan. He wears the clothes of a Shorinji Kempo practitioner, his official background is that he's a fallen monk (Shorinji Kempo is the fighting style of monks), his moves are that of Shorinji Kempo (what few he has), and he fights you in front of a Japanese monastary (which is both a monk and a shorinji kempo reference) His official description is "a fallen monk who practices forbidden techniques of Shorinji Kempo" or something like that. Posted by Mmeeva on 12:31:2001 07:02 PM: Well I don't know how helpful this is, but since everyone asks about Q and tekkaman, and since I remember this article about it... http://www.dashtaisen.com/whatsnewsfiii3rdb.html Posted by kane_warhead on 01:02:2002 10:29 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Retsu is just Gouken's good friend. He is not Gouken's student. This is official, but if you really want the proof, Retsu's too old and his fighting style is obviously Shorinji Kempo, not Ansatsuken/Shotokan. He wears the clothes of a Shorinji Kempo practitioner, his official background is that he's a fallen monk (Shorinji Kempo is the fighting style of monks), his moves are that of Shorinji Kempo (what few he has), and he fights you in front of a Japanese monastary (which is both a monk and a shorinji kempo reference) His official description is "a fallen monk who practices forbidden techniques of Shorinji Kempo" or something like that. Okay, okay... I only wanted to find some info. I find him cool. I think Capcom should make him some story or something. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:03:2002 08:23 PM: Oops, if that came off as snappish, sorry. It wasn't meant to be that way^^ Posted by Berias on 01:04:2002 05:19 AM: This thread was done for when it was moved here. Does anyone have any questions? There seems to be a new stupid way to die discovered. Posted by goukigirl2002 on 01:04:2002 09:06 AM: quote: Originally posted by Berias Does anyone have any questions? [/B] i do! ummm, about the gouki being 50% demon 50% human, he has somewhat pointy ears(but not noticeable if you do not pay attention) and red hair and Eyes,fang like teeth... but my question was about Gouki on sf3:giant attack(2nd impact),cause when he is defeated he has some nasty looking GREEN stuff coming out of his mouth. so if that is his blood i would say he is 80% demon(no human has green blood) and 20% human because when gouki was still a human he looked the same except he had brown eyes and long black hair.and akuma/gouki still has a human body, not a body of a demon because he doesn't have claws or wings. and he has a human's skin color(note: gouki's skin isn't really as dark as on the previous games sfa1/2/3 and the vs series,his REAL skin color is on cvs1/2 and sf3,a soft,light skin color.for those who didn't know.),it's not green or something.. so what do you think? =the supreme master of the fist,no can compete with my Power!! Posted by FistsofFury on 01:05:2002 05:34 AM: Gouki being part demon...sounds good somewhat...but in truth I think he's just a human being with an odd appearance and extraordinary abilities in martial arts. Correct me if I'm wrong but that whole demon thing was made up by Capcom of USA right?? Don't trust them. The green blood? I know what you're talking about...can't explain it either....wait, maybe they didn't want to show so much blood, as to not scare little children or something.....time after time in video games blood was always colored different colors to make it not seem like blood......... Posted by Berias on 01:06:2002 01:32 AM: quote: Originally posted by goukigirl2002 i do! ummm, about the gouki being 50% demon 50% human, he has somewhat pointy ears(but not noticeable if you do not pay attention) and red hair and Eyes,fang like teeth... but my question was about Gouki on sf3:giant attack(2nd impact),cause when he is defeated he has some nasty looking GREEN stuff coming out of his mouth. so if that is his blood i would say he is 80% demon(no human has green blood) and 20% human because when gouki was still a human he looked the same except he had brown eyes and long black hair.and akuma/gouki still has a human body, not a body of a demon because he doesn't have claws or wings. and he has a human's skin color(note: gouki's skin isn't really as dark as on the previous games sfa1/2/3 and the vs series,his REAL skin color is on cvs1/2 and sf3,a soft,light skin color.for those who didn't know.),it's not green or something.. so what do you think? =the supreme master of the fist,no can compete with my Power!! that could also be bile, which is that green, thin stuff that sometimes comes out when you throw up. other minor nuances like teeth, hair, how pointy his ears are I would attribute to the artist who draws him. The general consensus here is that he's of 100% human origin. Posted by goukigirl2002 on 01:06:2002 04:14 AM: quote: Originally posted by Berias that could also be bile, which is that green, thin stuff that sometimes comes out when you throw up. i always figured that it was bile... thats why i never eat and play 2nd Impact gouki and that same time. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:07:2002 11:14 PM: http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/gba/a/ssf2ryu.htm Hooray, video game museum archive finally updated with SF2 Revival endings. Nearly all of them were updated with small details, but some weren't (Guile and Chunli's haven't been touched for the most part...). They removed the part where Blanka doesn't recognize his real name. Yay. Also, Akuma's ending now reflects how he surprised and killed Bison with the Shun Goku Satsu since Bison says "What!? Who are you!?" or something like that. Sagat in his ending no longer says that next time he and Ryu meet, one of them won't survive. Instead his dialogue about how he looks forward to his next match with Ryu is a lot more friendly than his previous SF2 ending. Vega's ending shows that he probably went back to being a killer 'as if nothing happened'. M. Bison's ending wasn't changed, but that's cause his is the bad ending and doesn't happen anyway, thus didn't need any updating. Fei Long's ending was updated to reflect how he was already a movie star since SF2, but now he decided to give up acting for the real thing. And... erm, yea, well, that's all off the top of my head but there should be more... Akuma is called a demon in his ending. I wonder if that was meant to be symbollic/metaphoric, or true... I personally am inclined to thinking that it's symbollic and that he really isn't a demon (instead, it's meant to show just how beyond human his abilities have become thanks to his training) but of course, can't really prove that, myself. Posted by God of Death on 01:08:2002 01:53 AM: I have really been enjoying this forum. I have read the whole thing in about 34 hours! I have looked for history about street fighter for years, and this is the first time I have found the answers to questions I have had for years. I most also give special thanks to Clay for clearing up alot of things. I always thought that Gouki (Yes, Gouki not Akuma) was evil. Until it was put into perspective for me. I also thank you for clearing up things about the Dark Hadou. I only have one gripe. I truly believe that Sagat could not defeat Ken. I believe that Ken is talented enough to take Sagat down. Know I am a huge Sagat fan, but I still think Ken would win a narrow victory much like Ryu did during the first tournament. My second gripe is something that someone said earlier, but no one commented on. He said during Ryu's and Sagat's firt battle Sagat thought that Ryu was defeated and he reached his hand out. Ryu then hit him with a dragon punch. Now I know Ryu was under the control of the dark hadou, but I do not believe that he would strike an opponent with a sneak attack. Please comment on this. I would really like some different views on this. Posted by Azrael-sama on 01:08:2002 06:09 AM: Ken Vs Sagat, eh? Hmm...well, I think Ken has the ability to beat Sagat, but can he actually do it? Not sure...given that Ryu barely beats Sagat, if he does, I think I give the advantage to Sagat. As for the cheap shot on Sagat, true, Ryu wouldn't do a thing like that. But he was overcome by the killing intent. He wasn't the same Ryu - he was "Evil" Ryu for that one instant. Posted by goukigirl2002 on 01:09:2002 04:27 AM: ok, no one has asked this question in this thread i believe, so guess i will go ahead...since gouken is ryu's foster father and gouki is gouken's brother. doesn't this mean that gouki is ryu's uncle or something? i hate when every time people say ryu & gouki might be related to each other they say he might be ryu's father,and that is not true..i think gouki being ryu's uncle is closest it can get. and i'm also very pleased about all the information given in this thread..it makes street fighter fans think twice about calling him "EVIL IN THE FLESH" that is why i use the name gouki, because "devil" to me just doesn't suit him. he is stern,nearly fearless,he can kill people without guilt and just totally scary(his glowing eyes an aura)just because he is a live or die fighter doesn't mean he is evil. all he cares for is the fight,like ryu.and if ryu fought in death matches and killed his opponent fair-and-square,would ryu be evil even if the opponent agreed to fight him in a death match and and knew he would most likely lose? .and since when do you see an "evil in the flesh person" sell fruit to people with out poisoning them? never! (hmmm, that is really weird little kids aren't scared of him) and i heard some guy say gouki is evil just because he has glowing red eyes.. people judge that guy too much.. gouki does have very bad attitude sometimes though. p.s. i would like to thank everyone in this thread for being so helpful! and informative. Posted by RYU2005 on 01:09:2002 05:21 AM: quote: Originally posted by Azrael-sama Ken Vs Sagat, eh? Hmm...well, I think Ken has the ability to beat Sagat, but can he actually do it? Not sure...given that Ryu barely beats Sagat, if he does, I think I give the advantage to Sagat. As for the cheap shot on Sagat, true, Ryu wouldn't do a thing like that. But he was overcome by the killing intent. He wasn't the same Ryu - he was "Evil" Ryu for that one instant. i beg to differ that! ken can beat sagat?please ...why don't ken fan boys like yourself go and write a fan fic about ken fighting/beating sagat? because it will never happen!! if ryu fights sagat in a future sf game,he will surely destroy him;without a "cheap shot".and how can ken even stand a chance against sagat,even though his skills just about rotted away?and ryu's skills are getting more and more close to akuma's? next time,please measure the shoto's skills first, before you guess who can beat who._thank you. EDIT:and if sagat is soooo much better than ryu,how come he stole ryu's "shoryu-ken"?? gee...i thought sagat was better than ryu why did he stll his uppercut? Posted by Golden Dragon on 01:09:2002 08:34 PM: RYU2005 Dude, you need to cool off. There's no need to snap at Azrael like that. Besides he never said Ken could definitely beat Sagat, no contest. In fact, he was a little skeptical. He said, and I quote: "...given that Ryu barely beats Sagat, if he does, I think I give the advantage to Sagat," so I don't get why yer being so aggressive. You're the only one being pissy and giving attitude, so it doesn't make any sense to try starting an argument with someone who isn't arguing back. Posted by RYU2005 on 01:09:2002 10:38 PM: quote: Originally posted by Golden Dragon RYU2005 Dude, you need to cool off. There's no need to snap at Azrael like that. Besides he never said Ken could definitely beat Sagat, no contest. In fact, he was a little skeptical. He said, and I quote: "...given that Ryu barely beats Sagat, if he does, I think I give the advantage to Sagat," so I don't get why yer being so aggressive. You're the only one being pissy and giving attitude, so it doesn't make any sense to try starting an argument with someone who isn't arguing back. i wasn't arguing. i'm just saying i'm sick of ken fan boys who say ken's better than ryu 99.9% of the time.and he did say "he" thinks ken can beat sagat,but it was just his opinion. Posted by Saiki on 01:09:2002 11:33 PM: Ken most likely cannnot beat Sagat. Sagat is just too powerful for Ken. Ken could maybe beat SF1-Sagat but Ken cannot beat Sagat at his current state. Sagat, like Ryu, has gone through a thing similar to the Satsui no Hado. The only difference is that Sagat has overcome it and Ryu hasn't. Although Satsui no Hado is much more difficult to overcome. But at this point, even Ryu would lose to Sagat because Ryu has yet to overcome Satsui no Hado. Since so many people wonder and ask about who's stronger or who's strongest, I'll write a simple tier list of the top SFer's storywise. This is stuff that Capcom Jp has stated or has hinted. Tier 1 Gouki, Gill, Oro - the strongest three out of the SFer's. They outclass everyone. These guys are in the godly range Tier 2 Vega, Sagat, Ryu, Satsui no Ryu, Q(hinted) - the next bunch Tier 3 Ken, Gen, Rose, Nash, Urien Tier 4 Guile, Chunli, Hugo, Balrog Tier 5 Adon, Guy, Sakura, Cody, Mike Bison, Cammy, Zangief, Dhalsim, T Hawk, Alex This is all with the characters in their most recent state. Posted by goukigirl2002 on 01:10:2002 01:06 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Ken most likely cannnot beat Sagat. Sagat is just too powerful for Ken. Ken could maybe beat SF1-Sagat but Ken cannot beat Sagat at his current state. Sagat, like Ryu, has gone through a thing similar to the Satsui no Hado. The only difference is that Sagat has overcome it and Ryu hasn't. Although Satsui no Hado is much more difficult to overcome. But at this point, even Ryu would lose to Sagat because Ryu has yet to overcome Satsui no Hado. Since so many people wonder and ask about who's stronger or who's strongest, I'll write a simple tier list of the top SFer's storywise. This is stuff that Capcom Jp has stated or has hinted. Tier 1 Gouki, Gill, Oro - the strongest three out of the SFer's. They outclass everyone. These guys are in the godly range Tier 2 Vega, Sagat, Ryu, Satsui no Ryu, Q(hinted) - the next bunch Tier 3 Ken, Gen, Rose, Nash, Urien Tier 4 Guile, Chunli, Hugo, Balrog Tier 5 Adon, Guy, Sakura, Cody, Mike Bison, Cammy, Zangief, Dhalsim, T Hawk, Alex This is all with the characters in their most recent state. thanks for all the information in this thread Saiki^_^! Posted by Ultima on 01:10:2002 03:58 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Since so many people wonder and ask about who's stronger or who's strongest, I'll write a simple tier list of the top SFer's storywise. This is stuff that Capcom Jp has stated or has hinted. Tier 1 Gouki, Gill, Oro - the strongest three out of the SFer's. They outclass everyone. These guys are in the godly range Tier 2 Vega, Sagat, Ryu, Satsui no Ryu, Q(hinted) - the next bunch Tier 3 Ken, Gen, Rose, Nash, Urien Tier 4 Guile, Chunli, Hugo, Balrog Tier 5 Adon, Guy, Sakura, Cody, Mike Bison, Cammy, Zangief, Dhalsim, T Hawk, Alex This is all with the characters in their most recent state. INtersting listing. Top tier is unquestionable. Tier 2... I would have personally placed Vega in a Tier 1.5, but that's just me. I would have also thought Gen, Rose and Urien (for sheer power) to be at the same level as Vega & Ryu. And you say Q is hinted at being here? Whoa... Guile is weaker than Charlie? Bleh. Hugo is the strongest grappler, eh? Makes sense. But why is Balrog listed higher than Guy or Dhalsim? Or rather, why aren't Dhalsim and Guy in the same class as Chunners and Balrog? Sakura in the same class as Zangief, T.Hawk and Alex. It just ain't right. Must be the briefs... Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:10:2002 06:44 AM: I think it's because it's in their most recent state. Ryu by Street Fighter 3 has trained and honed both his skills and his mind to be far more focused than before, and Sagat also has done the same after SFA3. Vega (M. Bison in the US) on the other hand actually got WEAKER storyline wise for SF2... Balrog/Vega is higher than a large portion of characters because he's supposed to be more powerful than Cammy, I imagine. I'm surprised Hugo is up there with him, Chunli, and Guile, though. Yea, Charlie's supposed to be more powerful than Guile to the point where Capcom states that they purposefully made Guile crappy in SFA3 just to show how superior to him Charlie was. I suppose by SF2, Guile might have improved, but Charlie is still supposed to be really powerful given how much Guile admired him (Guile is still more powerful than most SF2 characters anyway, also...) Chunli is more of a main character than Guy or Dhalsim, I guess. While technically, I suppose Guy should be rather high what with him being a Bushin master and all, storyline-wise he doesn't really do as much as many of the above did (for example, he never really fought M. Bison mano-e-mano). Also, if Guy were made too powerful, I guess Capcom would have to make all other playable Final Fight characters in Final Fight 3 as powerful too which probably wouldn't be true (Why would one timer Lucia be just as powerful as mainstay characters, I guess.). Now that I think about it, the majority of the tier 4 and above characters had hefty amounts of influence on the storyline (as opposed to being influenced by it). With... the exception of Hugo. What a strange character to be up there Especially since the Andores never even reached boss status in the Final Fight games and Hugo wasn't the winner of the SF3 tournament... that one kinda really boggles me a lot Posted by RYU2005 on 01:11:2002 12:18 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Ken most likely cannnot beat Sagat. Sagat is just too powerful for Ken. Ken could maybe beat SF1-Sagat but Ken cannot beat Sagat at his current state. Sagat, like Ryu, has gone through a thing similar to the Satsui no Hado. The only difference is that Sagat has overcome it and Ryu hasn't. Although Satsui no Hado is much more difficult to overcome. But at this point, even Ryu would lose to Sagat because Ryu has yet to overcome Satsui no Hado. Since so many people wonder and ask about who's stronger or who's strongest, I'll write a simple tier list of the top SFer's storywise. This is stuff that Capcom Jp has stated or has hinted. Tier 1 Gouki, Gill, Oro - the strongest three out of the SFer's. They outclass everyone. These guys are in the godly range Tier 2 Vega, Sagat, Ryu, Satsui no Ryu, Q(hinted) - the next bunch Tier 3 Ken, Gen, Rose, Nash, Urien Tier 4 Guile, Chunli, Hugo, Balrog Tier 5 Adon, Guy, Sakura, Cody, Mike Bison, Cammy, Zangief, Dhalsim, T Hawk, Alex This is all with the characters in their most recent state. no...you've got a lot of people wrong. ryu should be listed right after akuma or right after gill.ryu's either just as good/powerful as ore,or he's better.and vega is definitely not better/more powerful than Ryu! rose shouldn't be listed way before bison;she should be listed right after bison,that's for sure.and sakura should be listed either last,or she should have not been listed at all...and for one thing,adon should definitely be listed RIGHT after sagat. i'm sorry,but this is almost dead wrong. Posted by goukigirl2002 on 01:11:2002 12:42 AM: i agree with RYU2005. ryu is ALWAYS claimed to be the second best sf next to gouki. Posted by Saiki on 01:11:2002 03:18 AM: Ultima The reason why Guy isn't in the same range as Chunli is because Capcom Jp hasn't said anything about him. And from what they've hinted, he's either totally stoppped figthing period or is dead. And for Dhalsim, he's quit street fighting. So his skills hasn't improved over the last 5~6 years. Chunli and Balrog have both improved their skills for the past 5~6 years which is why they're higher up now. Guile, Chunli, Balrog and Hugo would all be one tier down back in the Zero3 time. Sakura is much more powerful than many think. Her natural talent is far greater than Ryu, Sagat or Nash's. Her ki manipulation was equal to Ken back in SFZ3. Hence why she's so high in the tier's storywise. And she's about 25~26 years old right and she's been wandering the globe training just like Ryu for the past 9 years. Although I doubt she'll get any higher in the tiers unless she gets formal training by someone. Tiamat I put Hugo up their because of his sheer size and for the reason that he wasn't knocked out by the Shin Shoryuken. This was stated by Capcom. Ryu got a clean hit on Hugo with the Shin Shoryuken, which is one of the most powerful moves in SF. Ryu2005 For one thing, the order in which the characters are listed in each tier isn't in any specific order. For example, just because Ken is listed before Rose doesn't mean Ken is stronger. They're just both in the relative same range overall. And those characters are listed with their Japanese names, not the US versions. And you seem to think that Ryu=god or something but he's not. Ryu's still in training. And Ryu is not stronger than Oro at all. He's not even close. Oro easily beat him with only one arm. About Sakura, read what I wrote above. Adon is nowhere near as strong as Sagat is right now. If it was Sagat while he was all corrupted, then Adon was equal to Sagat. But Sagat has overcome that and has re-trained himself and has reached his full potential. While Adon on the other hand, is still the Muay Thai champion and hasn't fought anyone that strong or hasn't trained that much since SFZ3. This is because he's so full of himself and thinks that he is supreme and doesn't need to train. Just as a side note, Ryu2005, everything that I've stated here or before has always come from Capcom Japan. Posted by Golden Dragon on 01:11:2002 03:51 AM: RYU2005 Whaddaya' mean HE'S got a lot of people wrong? Like Saiki said, everything that he's stated here or before has always come from Capcom Japan. The list isn't really based on his personal opinion. He's just stating the facts. Pay more attention. Besides, things are a little different because the tier list goes according to the SFers in their most recent states. It's not like time froze & every characters' skill level has stayed EXACTLY the same over the past 9 years. Posted by god rugal666 on 01:11:2002 06:09 AM: ok, i guess i'll have my little sayso... WHO DA HELL CARES ABOUT THE SF!!!!.WHO THE FUC* GIVZ A SHI% ABOUT WHO IZ STRONGER,MORE TALENTED,SKILLED SO WHAT!!!!!!!!!! NO ONE GIVES A FUC*!!! AND WHO THA FUC* CARES ABOUT THA SHI*FIGHTER STORY LINE!!! KOF'S STORY LINE IZ WAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY BETTER AND MORE INTERESTING. AND BTW THEY R JUS SUM DAM* DRAWINS' SO WHO THA FUC* CARES ABOUT THA STORYLINE OV SUM DAM* PAPER AND PIXELZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND FU* ALL OV U IN THIS DAM* THREAD AND DAT GOUKIBITC#!!!!!!!!! C' MON CHUN-HE LET'S KILL DIS TOPIC FOR FUN!!!! HEH, THA MODS WILL DELETE THIS THREAD IN NO TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *KOF FANBOY LAUGHS AS HE WALKS* P.S. FUC* CRAPCOM AND IT'S FANS. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:11:2002 07:47 AM: Sakura doesn't exist for SF's storyline? ...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA! *dies laughing* Okay, I can see a bit why some people wouldn't think that SFA3 is canon, but Sakura herself not even existing? OMG!!! That is all. Moving along (and I suggest everyone else do so too, for hopefully obvious reasons. Sakura isn't canon... LOL!!!!)... Wow, has it been stated that Sakura is still in training? I was under the impression that somewhere along the line she actually stopped training. Capcom seems to have been hinting heavily at this. In all VS games where Sakura has an ending, she's either giving up fighting or having LOTS of trouble staying in school thanks to her training taking so much of her study time so she's having to give it up. Also, Sakura didn't participate in the second Street Fighter tournament or the third, or in Rival Schools 2 Project Justice, even. Of course, none of these actually PROVE anything hard core, so if Capcom has officially stated that she has been in training all these nine years, then obviously should go with that. Otherwise, though, there's just soooo much circumstantial evidence (as late as CvS2, even, where Sakura's text ending ominously hints that she'll have to give up fighting to stay in school) which just seems to indicate otherwise. Of course, VS games aren't canon but Capcom often uses them to hint at aspects of characterization or events that Capcom intends to have happened (course, Capcom can easily go back on these since VS games aren't canon. How OOC Cammy acts in X-Men vs Street Fighter before Capcom finally decided to go with the Doll thing in SFA3 is a good example) Oh yea, Ryu hit Hugo with that Shin shoryuken in the SF3 tournament or somewhere else? If it was in the SF3 tournament, then I guess Ryu probably beat Hugo in that tournament since it wasn't until Oro that Ryu got beaten... Posted by chun-he on 01:11:2002 08:35 AM: HEY TIAMATROAR. DID YOU KNOW THAT IF THE"DOLLS" EXIST FOR THE SF STORY LINE,THEY'RE DEAD???! WHY? BECAUSE AKUMA KILLED BISON!!! HAAA!!! HHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!!!:l ol: AND THEIR ENDINGS ON SFA3 WERE FAKE!!!!!!!! SFA3 MAKE'S EVERYONE'S ENDING GO SMOOTH! SO,THOSE HOES ARE OUT OF SERVICE!!! HAAAAAA!!!!!!!!! HHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :AND I AGREE WITH RYU2005.NOBODY EVER STATED THAT RYU WAS BEAT BY ORO!!!AND ON ALL OF ORO'S ENDINGS ORO NEVER SAID ANYTHING LIKE HE EVER FOUGHT RYU!!!!! DUMB-A$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'VE COME TO MAKE YOU GUYZ' LIVES A LIVIN' HYYYYYYYYYLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!! Posted by god rugal666 on 01:11:2002 09:49 AM: YEAH CHUN-HE 'DATS THA SPIRIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! C' MON CHUN-HE LET'S ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAAA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND BTW I'M GOIN' WITH CHUN-HES OPINYEN YA NKO WHY? CUZ SAKURA WUZ MADE UP ON THA "VS" SERIES AND U NKOW DAT SERIES IZ A "WHAT IF" AND SO IZ SAKURA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AAAHHHHHHH HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Posted by Azrael-sama on 01:11:2002 03:29 PM: RYU2005: When you have the time (about 30-45 mins+ ) start on page 1 of this thread. Come back when you've reached this point again after going through the 29 pages before it. Conjecture aside, there is a lot of cold hard SF fact here, and you'll learn a lot, as I did. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:11:2002 07:18 PM: Oh yea! Dhalsim officially retired after SF2? That does seem to make sense due to all the foreshadowing that someday he'd have to 'renounce his power.' Oi... I thought the only thing left needed for the plot guide was the specifics of what happened with the Lee family, but it looks like there's always so much more Posted by Golden Hell on 01:11:2002 08:32 PM: Hey guys, I've been gone for a bit but it looks like nothing really exciting has been happening since this thread was moved to this gloomy section of the shoryuken boards. TiamatRoar: Thanks for that link to the vgmuseum. Since I don't have a Gameboy Advance, I at least get to see the updated SF endings. It looks like the "clone" story that has been established in this thread for Cammy can't be denied anymore (though I know it still will be ). I'm also glad Blanka's story has been updated to match his Alpha3 story - it kind of gives more credibility to SFA3 having an actual part within the entire SF storyline (not that I had any real doubts). Posted by Golden Dragon on 01:11:2002 11:03 PM: RYU2005 No one's bragging pal. This is just a topic and we're just talking amongst ourselves. If you think this is such a useless and pointless thread, then why do you keep coming back??? Y'know why? 'Cuz you know you love it! You call us know-it-alls when you keep telling us how wrong we all are. Like Azrael said, start on page 1 of this thread & come back when you've reached this point again after going through the 29 pages before it. Believe me, you sound like a pompus a$$. Maybe when yer talking, you should give yer opinion in a more appealing way, rather than insulting us and pretty much saying "YOU'RE WRONG AND I'M RIGHT!!!" Don't act like you hate this thread 'cuz u know ya think it's great, lol. Maybe you're cranky or you didn't get your milk yet & that's why you're venting. OR maybe your jealous that you don't know as much 'bout SF's storyline as us "KNOW-IT-ALLS," since we pride ourselves so much in knowing so much 'bout the storyline of a videogame. That's what u wanna hear, right? You want us to say things like that so you'll have more reason to dislike us, right? LOL. You gonna cry? God Rugal and/or ChunHe (It's the same person with 2 s/n's anyways, so who cares?) Damn, man. You must be givin' your shift key hell, using all those exclamation points and capitalized letters. Anyways, what's happenin'? How are ya? So Chun He (excuse me, Rugal), you're a KOF fan? Cool, me too, but I like Capcom as well. Robert Garcia owns, but that's just me. What I don'y get is, if you hate CAPCOM so much, then why are you a member of shoryuken.com (incase you didn't know, this is a STREET FIGHTER site)? Is it just so you can make fun of street fighter fan boys? If so, then you must live a pretty pointless life, or maybe you don't have a life and are in need of one. I dunno. Don't you think it's a little weak causing trouble at a message board? Why not try a chat room? It's way more fun, if ya ask me. But, if you ARE gonna try to piss some ppl off, bring someone else along, rather than alternating between 2 member names, 'cuz that's kinda' pathetic. Now I know you'll probably say something like "YOU SUCK, GOLDEN DRAGON!" or "FUC YOU!" but I thought I'd put my two cents in, anyways. Hell, I don't even know why I'm even acknowledging your post. Nobody else did and it's a waste of time, but I guess I'm a little bored, much like you, God Rugal/Chun He. Later. Posted by Saiki on 01:11:2002 11:32 PM: Ryu2005 I never once said I know everything about sf or anything like that. I've said that I've got official sources and that I can get info more easily than others yes. I can tell that you know nothing about the sf storyline. Considering that you're using mshvssf for reference. I'd like to see you back up why you think Ryu is better than what we say. Although, I don't think I really shot him down that much. I said he ranks below Gouki, Gill and Oro but like I said in the same paragraph, those three outclass everyone. Those three are in the godly powers. Ryu is still in training. He has yet to reach his full potential. Gouki knows that if Ryu reaches his full potential, Ryu would be equal if not stronger than Gouki. Oro has also seen that Ryu has great potential and thats why he wants to train him. And with Sakura, she is much stronger than Dan. Dan, story-wise is one of the weakest fighters in SF. And Sakura isn't a what-if character. She was in a game called Street Fighter Zero 2 which is a part of the SF story. Also, you say that what she said to Apocalypes is arrogant. This is what she said,(in the Japanese version) "Well, it's finally time for the boss. huh? All right! I'm going to go full force!" Yes, that's so arrogant...... And as a side note, I don't care what she said in the US version of the game because the US version of any Capcom game has usually been mis-translated or totally changed. And you say this thread is useless. But what I want to know is why you came here in the first place. You came here telling us that we were all wrong without showing any kind of backup or source of information. And you say that having official capcom fan books that talk about the SF story is pathetic. Hmmmm.... how else would you go about finding out about the story of SF? Posted by god rugal666 on 01:12:2002 12:27 AM: quote: Originally posted by Golden Dragon RYU2005 No one's bragging pal. This is just a topic and we're just talking amongst ourselves. If you think this is such a useless and pointless thread, then why do you keep coming back??? Y'know why? 'Cuz you know you love it! You call us know-it-alls when you keep telling us how wrong we all are. Like Azrael said, start on page 1 of this thread & come back when you've reached this point again after going through the 29 pages before it. Believe me, you sound like a pompus a$$. Maybe when yer talking, you should give yer opinion in a more appealing way, rather than insulting us and pretty much saying "YOU'RE WRONG AND I'M RIGHT!!!" Don't act like you hate this thread 'cuz u know ya think it's great, lol. Maybe you're cranky or you didn't get your milk yet & that's why you're venting. OR maybe your jealous that you don't know as much 'bout SF's storyline as us "KNOW-IT-ALLS," since we pride ourselves so much in knowing so much 'bout the storyline of a videogame. That's what u wanna hear, right? You want us to say things like that so you'll have more reason to dislike us, right? LOL. You gonna cry? God Rugal and/or ChunHe (It's the same person with 2 s/n's anyways, so who cares?) Damn, man. You must be givin' your shift key hell, using all those exclamation points and capitalized letters. Anyways, what's happenin'? How are ya? So Chun He (excuse me, Rugal), you're a KOF fan? Cool, me too, but I like Capcom as well. Robert Garcia owns, but that's just me. What I don'y get is, if you hate CAPCOM so much, then why are you a member of shoryuken.com (incase you didn't know, this is a STREET FIGHTER site)? Is it just so you can make fun of street fighter fan boys? If so, then you must live a pretty pointless life, or maybe you don't have a life and are in need of one. I dunno. Don't you think it's a little weak causing trouble at a message board? Why not try a chat room? It's way more fun, if ya ask me. But, if you ARE gonna try to piss some ppl off, bring someone else along, rather than alternating between 2 member names, 'cuz that's kinda' pathetic. Now I know you'll probably say something like "YOU SUCK, GOLDEN DRAGON!" or "FUC YOU!" but I thought I'd put my two cents in, anyways. Hell, I don't even know why I'm even acknowledging your post. Nobody else did and it's a waste of time, but I guess I'm a little bored, much like you, God Rugal/Chun He. Later. sorry pal,but i ain't chun-he...chun-he jus tought me to lockcaps cuz it iz funner!!!!! and i hate crapcom and chun-he love chun-li/crapcom character.and i like GOD RUGAL sooooooo do u think dat wud be da same person??????!!?!? oh and we have separate e-mail addresses SO DON'T ACCUSE ME NIGGA!!!!!!!!!!! Posted by Saiki on 01:12:2002 02:54 AM: Ryu2005 Just so you know, I do e-mail someone working in Capcom Japan. Him and I are good buddies... Anyways, using Gem Fighter as a source isn't good at all. And Dan is the one who said Sakura is weaker than himself. Dan has said the same thing to Ken, but that doesn't mean Dan is stronger than Ken. And you say that Sakura's win quotes in SFz2 is arrogant. Here's a few of them "You can tell if someone's weak just by looking at their eyes" "Man........your face is all messed up now....um, I mean...never mind" "My pation towards getting stronger is just as strong as anyone else!" "Let's not scare each other with our faces" those are only some of them but from what I can tell, none of them show any signs of arrogance. And why do keep saying that Sakura isn't a part of the sf story? If she isn't then Rose, Rolento, Guy, Sodom, Karin, black Birdie, R Mika, criminal Cody ,Dan, etc wouldn't be either. The games that aren't a part of the sf story are any of the "VS" series, pocket fighter, gem fighter, warzard, Kikai-ou. And Ryu isn't the best fighter in the world. Either Gouki, Gill or Oro are. And since when was Ryu feared? Everyone in the sf story admires and respects him but I don't know of any that fear him. People fear Gouki. And Gouki is not a newbie. He's been studying the art of Ansatsuken much longer than Ryu has. Now, I'll ask again, would you please back up what you say with evidence from the game or reliable sources that are official. Posted by Saiki on 01:12:2002 04:31 AM: Ryu2005 Um, just because Gouki was created in 1994 doesn't make him a newbie compared to Ryu. We're going by the story remember? Gouki is around 50 and Ryu is around 30. Both have trained since childhood. Hmmm... which one is the newbie? I'm not gonna use any of the books that I have because I can't show them to you.(I don't have a scanner) And even if I did, you cant read it anyways cause it's in Japanese. So I'll just use in-game references. Oro and Ryu In Oro's 3rd Strike ending, you can see both Oro(half-assed) and Ryu training. Oro talks about how Ryu will become much stronger in 15 years, and that Oro will have to use both arms instead one. This clearly indicates oro's superiority over Ryu at this state. I can't prove Ryu and Gill because their isn't any reference to that other than the books I have. And I don't have to prove anything about Gouki and Gill and Oro because I never said that Gill and Oro are stronger than Gouki. I said that those three are the top three. And Gouki has trained more than Ryu. This pretty obvious. Gouken trained Ryu and Ken. Gouken and Gouki were trained by Goutetsu. Goutetsu was killed by Gouki. Gouki killed Gouken while Ryu was in the SF1 tournament. You do the math. And here's some simple proof that the Zero characters exist in the SF story. In SFIII, one of Sean's win quotes has him saying something about him not wanting to be compared to Dan. Hmmmm.....if Dan is in SFIII, that makes him exist in the SF story. If Dan exists in the SF story, so does the other Zero characters. I find if funny how you never answer a single question I've asked you yet. I've answered to your claims about Sakura being arrogant. But you never answered to a single one of mine with any backup. This is what you said and i don't really need to prove that ryu's almost the best fighter in the sf universe yeah, nice. That really proves something........... And you need to calm down. I can tell you like Ryu and I have no problem with that. I like him too. But just because I like him or because you like him doesn't make him the strongest in the sf universe. He has potential to be the strongest, but he still hasn't reached that point. Now, I'll ask again, would you please back up what you say with evidence from the game or reliable sources that are official. P.S. There's a big difference between claiming something and stating something with evidence and backup. Posted by Golden Dragon on 01:12:2002 04:48 AM: RYU2005 LOL, What are u still doing here? I thought you said you don't feel like coming back here again & that we're too hard to reason with, so why do you keep comin' back? See, I told ya u love this thread. You can't get enough of it. It's either that or you love to argue, heheh. Plus you said you have your own sources, so name them. So you want proof that Oro's better than Ryu? It's been officially stated by Capcom of Japan that Ryu lost to Oro during the SF3 tournament. There ya go. You'd know that if you read the past 29 pages like Azrael & I keep telling you. LOL, it's like opening your big mouth before knowing the facts & the whole story is the story of your life. What's with you, dude? Ignorance is bliss, I guess. Chun-He/God Rugal666 sorry pal,but i ain't chun-he...chun-he jus tought me to lockcaps cuz it iz funner!!!!! Did you just say someone TAUGHT you to use caps lock??? LOL!!! Now THAT'S funny! Don't accuse you??? I didn't accuse you of anything, and even if I did, there's not much you can do 'bout it. You still didn't answer why you're a member of a STREET FIGHTER site if you hate CAPCOM so much. C'mon, you know you're a Capcom slut, lol. You can't deny it, heheh. What's funny is that you & Chun-He both registered here at the same time: December 2001. You're NOT Chun-He...riiiiiight...You're a funny guy, y'know that? You're a little slow, but that's the funny part, I guess. I dunno why I keep replying to yer posts. I guess it's 'cuz you're such an easy target. Anyways, later. Btw, capitalizing your letters and using exclamation points isn't very effective at all. I mean, I know it's your way of showing that yer yelling, but it's not like I can hear you or anything, haha...dumba$$... Posted by god rugal666 on 01:12:2002 04:59 AM: cuz i wanna show mah hate fo crapcom... oh and click here! http://www.codebloat.com/junk/retardarguing.jpg edit: and meant to say 'dat chun-he showed me how funny it really iz jus from lookin' at his post, he makes me laugh to high hell!! so i though i should try it 2. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:12:2002 05:23 AM: Good luck reasoning with these people. They're of gamefaqs caliber. That's why I suggest we just move on. IE, ignore them completely. Ah well. Posted by kane_warhead on 01:12:2002 06:13 PM: quote: Originally posted by goukigirl2002 ok, no one has asked this question in this thread i believe, so guess i will go ahead...since gouken is ryu's foster father and gouki is gouken's brother. doesn't this mean that gouki is ryu's uncle or something? i hate when every time people say ryu & gouki might be related to each other they say he might be ryu's father,and that is not true..i think gouki being ryu's uncle is closest it can get. and i'm also very pleased about all the information given in this thread..it makes street fighter fans think twice about calling him "EVIL IN THE FLESH" that is why i use the name gouki, because "devil" to me just doesn't suit him. he is stern,nearly fearless,he can kill people without guilt and just totally scary(his glowing eyes an aura)just because he is a live or die fighter doesn't mean he is evil. all he cares for is the fight,like ryu.and if ryu fought in death matches and killed his opponent fair-and-square,would ryu be evil even if the opponent agreed to fight him in a death match and and knew he would most likely lose? .and since when do you see an "evil in the flesh person" sell fruit to people with out poisoning them? never! (hmmm, that is really weird little kids aren't scared of him) and i heard some guy say gouki is evil just because he has glowing red eyes.. people judge that guy too much.. gouki does have very bad attitude sometimes though. p.s. i would like to thank everyone in this thread for being so helpful! and informative. I think Gouki says "I am Power made flesh." People believing Gouki to be evil are less-informed. They think they know much of SF and thus proclaim ridiculous things. Posted by goukigirl2002 on 01:13:2002 02:12 AM: just because gouki says "i am power made flesh,feel how weak you truly are!" doesn't mean he is "evil in the flesh" or "pure evil" people do say ridiculous things when they don't even have complete proof..and click here! http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/akuma/ryu.html Posted by God of Death on 01:14:2002 11:34 PM: I know that it has been discussed that Gouki is not evil. I have one question. Why did he kill Ken and Ryu's teacher aka his brother? Did he challenge him or what? Another question is I read someone saying that Oro defeated Ryu easily. Is this true and how do you know. I heard that he did defeat Ryu, but how do you find out the level of the that match or any match in the thread. Thanks. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:14:2002 11:45 PM: Yea, Gouki challenged both his master and his brother to a battle to the death, I believe^^ I think this also is why Ryu and Ken don't care to go after Gouki for reasons of avenging Gouken, because the fight was to the death and both Gouken and Gouki had agreed to those terms when they did battle. Not sure about that latter part though but it seems to be the case. Random. I read somewhere in a story FAQ that Sakura took up fighting when '3 college men tried to detain [Rape?] Kei.', and that was before she saw Ryu. Is there any truth to that? It came from an RS story FAQ at gamefaqs. Come to think of it, I wonder how much of Sakura's stay in RS was canon, too... though I know that it's true that she's good friends with Hinata and Natsu, but that's about it. :P Posted by Berias on 01:15:2002 03:51 AM: Well, it's been awhile. Saiki, you're wasting your energy on him. What have you gained when you've bested a goofball? Ryu2005 is impervious to logic. I don't know how much Capcom plans to develop Ryu since it seems they were planning to drop the old crew completely from SF3 (I think the story is more intertesting when the strong characters have someone to catch up to); but, Ryu2005, if you've gained a drop of reason, just wait it out. See the previous posts in this board. Q's in "tier 2"? Awesome. Posted by Saiki on 01:15:2002 04:36 AM: God of Death Yeah, Tiamat pretty much said what I was gonna say about why Gouki killed Gouken. I think Gouki killed Goutetsu for the same reason. Gouki challenged Goutestu to a battle to the death. It makes sense since Goutetsu, Gouken and Gouki all practice Ansatsuken. And Oro defeating Ryu was stated by Capcom Jp. It's not in All about Capcom though. It was from a different source. Remember those quick story intro's that were posted on Capcom USA's SFZ2 site? Oro beating Ryu was explained in one of these. Tiamat I'm not sure if Sakura or Kei was almost raped. I know that some guys tried to pick them up but they got beat up by Sakura. And Sakura started up street fighting because she saw Ryu fight once. I'm pretty sure the RS one isn't cannon. Although I could be wrong. Berias I know, but I couldn't help it. He seemed WAY too mis-informed. No, I think it was his, "I am right and you are wrong attitude" that annoyed me. Capcom Jp's hinted about Q being that strong. I'm hoping Q will play a big role in the story. Although Capcom has a tendancy to forget about characters that seem cool. I'll just keep hoping just like I've been hoping for the return or Retsu and Gouken's daughter. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:16:2002 09:44 PM: Wow, I wonder if Rival Schools was even meant to be within the SF universe at all. The only connection is Sakura in an easter egg-ish appearance as a hidden character in Rival Schools 1 (she wasn't even in the sequel). While she did sooooorta have a storyline there (in her ending, she realizes that one can fight to protect things), it's not referenced or shown in her character in SFA3 (which, timeline wise, most likely would happen after Rival Schools 1, given Sakura's in her first year of Highschool in RS1). Maybe someone from Capcom stuck her in Rival Schools without permission from the guys in charge of the SF storyline or something. I was expecting Kyosuke to be ported to SFA3 for the Gameboy Advance just like Yun, Maki, and Eagle were, which would have confirmed that Rival Schools took place within the SF universe, but he wasn't. The fact that YUN is being ported to SFA3 shows that Capcom is pretty much just slopping in all the newly updated characters they made for Capcom vs SNK 2 that exist within the SF universe into SFA3 (whether they've been in a Street Fighter game or not, as shown by Maki). But since Kyosuke's not being ported there, maybe he and thus Rival Schools isn't supposed to exist within the same storyline as Street Fighter (and according to Sakura being in Rival Schools 1, he would have fit into SFA3 a lot more, timewise, than Yun would have...). Whether or not SFA3 Advance is meant to be canon isn't even relevant to this. If Kyosuke existed at all within the SF Universe, he really should have made it to SFA3 Advance since Yun (who doesn't fit in timewise) and Maki (who exists within the SF universe but has never been in an SF game) did... And of course, Sakura doesn't make an appearance in Rival Schools 2, which has absolutely NO connections or mentionings of anything Street Fighter related at all... About stupid people. I'm all for ignoring them right off the bat if they say that Street Fighter Alpha 3 isn't canon, but I don't always necessarily do that since SFA3 WAS at least somewhat funky before SF2 Revival, even if it takes some nitpicking to say that SFA3 isn't canon (I'm glaring at all those nitpick people who say SFA3 couldn't have been canon because Blanka knows his real name in SFA3, while he didn't in SF2 before SF2 Revival came out ). But when they say that Sakura doesn't even exist, um... I'm pretty sure they're obviously not worth anyone's time. Posted by Ultima on 01:17:2002 10:44 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Whether or not SFA3 Advance is meant to be canon isn't even relevant to this. If Kyosuke existed at all within the SF Universe, he really should have made it to SFA3 Advance since Yun (who doesn't fit in timewise) and Maki (who exists within the SF universe but has never been in an SF game) did... Not necessarily. For one thing, it's not Capcom doing the GBA of SFZ3U. It's some (European?) company named Crawfish or Crayfish, I forget which. In addition, there are probably either space considerations (only so much can fit on a cart) or gameplay issues (Kyosuke doesn't play like a normal SF character compared to Eagle, Maki and Yun, and probably doesn't fit well in the A3 engine). I suspect the latter is the main reason why Kyosuke was left out of GBA SFZ3. I wish I had been here sooner, cause I would have told you people not to bother with chun-he and the god rugal idiots. They're obviously trolls (really pathetic trolls at that). As for the Ryu2005 guy, well he's just sad. Hugo took a clean Shin Shoryuken and wasn't KOed? Wow..! To Berias: I suspect we've seen the last of Q. While he kinda grew on me after playing with him for a while, I still think he's ultimately a stupid character who doesn't really belong in the SF universe. Maybe if he were some masked badass instead of a robot (which raises all kind of questions that will probably never be answered, like who built him, what's his purpose, and why does he look like a Tekkaman?)... Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:17:2002 09:32 PM: On a random tangent, didn't Crawfish develop SF2 Revival, also? Or am I mixing something up there? Yea, Kyosuke plays quite differently than most characters with his air juggles and such. I still wish he were at least in the game to give some sort of confirmation or more signs of Rival Schools in the SF universe or something. Ah well. Q is Balrog/M.Bison in disguise! That's why he witnessed the downfall of Shadaloo and fights so clutzily!!!!!!!! Nah, just kidding:P But yea, he seems really out of place. I think he's mostly in the game just for the hell of it cause there really isn't anything to him, it seems. Capcom basically left him blank not because it would allow for storyline potential but just because they could, I feel. I mean, it's not hard to create a character by saying "This character has NO past whatsoever!!! FEAR!" and leave it at that... :P Retsu could come back though. Seems like some stuff could be done with him, but Capcom seems to have moved past or forgotten anything related with Gouken... It was pretty obvious that we should just ignore Chun-He and co when they flat out stated they were trolling just to get this thread locked or so... Posted by God of Death on 01:18:2002 01:50 AM: I read the faq on the Street fighter history and I noticed something today.Has Ryu won any fights?!! I mean first he cheap shot Sagat and then he fought Gouki. There was no clear winner though because Gouki wanted him to find his true power. Then he lost to Ken and then lost to Sagat okay maybe he was under Vega's control so that does not count. Then there is no clear winner to the second World Warrior tournament. Then he loses to Oro in Street Fighter 3. MY GOD!!!! Where is the proof of his power and what not!! Any way I am a hard core Ryu fan and I want to assure you that I am not upset that he has lost. Honestly I think losing makes him a deeper character. I really hope that they resolve these storylines and bring out a part 4. I would really like to know who the clear cut winner is. That's all for know. Holla!!!! By the way I am using the Japanese names. Posted by Berias on 01:18:2002 02:22 AM: Ultima While I somewhat agree with you, Q is really a breath of fresh air to the street fighter scene. Aside from the obvious "Tekkaman" reference, he is very original and without cliches. You can only have so many characters with the same story. I think over 90% of the streetfighter characters can fit into one of these categories: Fights for Revenge or "justice" (Alex, Guile, Charlie, Chun-Li, Dhalsim, Urien, Rose etc) Fights for Pride or for its own sake (Dan, Sagat, Zangief, Sean, Dudley, Ryu, Ken, every other character from every game ever made, etc) Fights for self discovery (Ibuki, Elena, Sakura, etc) Geezers looking for strong opponents (Oro, Gen, Vega, etc) Distant, Powerful character that makes grunting noises when hit (Gill, Gouki) Q, on the other hand, is so markedly different, so classicy creepy in his trenchcoat, Bogey hat, and expressionless steel mask it becomes almost refreshing to the storyline. Overexposure can hurt a character. I think he's got a lot of potential. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:18:2002 02:40 PM: Weeee, not a very big or even too relevent post, but Capcom vs SNK 2 endings FAQ was posted to gamefaqs. http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcad...2_quote_end.txt There isn't anything reeeaaally interesting heresay (and of course VS games aren't canon), though Maki's seems to go along with how Guy is missing and she's searching for him. According to her ending in CvS2, she went searching for him after her father died in order to see who truly deserves to be the next Bushin Master. Hmm... wonder if that's the canon reason for it too but seems like it would be. Though guess that'd also mean that old coot Genryusai finally kicked the bucket somewhere along the line. Oh, and I heard before that Sakura's ending was about how she couldn't keep up with her school work due to her training and thus might have to give fighting up, but apparently that's not the case here. Wonder if Capcom of USA either changed that or that source was lying or something. Ah well. Posted by Berias on 01:19:2002 09:04 PM: *bump!* Someone list pronunciations for the harder names. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:20:2002 10:18 PM: Oi. I am good at neither pronounciation nor conveying pronounciation to the written text. ^^; Random: I heard from multiple things that Guy was a good friend of Ryu (and maybe Ken). Been hearing that for some time, in fact, but I've never been able to see it in any games or get official confirmation of it that I can recall... Posted by goukigirl2002 on 01:21:2002 01:23 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Oi. I am good at neither pronounciation nor conveying pronounciation to the written text. ^^; Random: I heard from multiple things that Guy was a good friend of Ryu (and maybe Ken). Been hearing that for some time, in fact, but I've never been able to see it in any games or get official confirmation of it that I can recall... in the official sf alpha 2 guide, you can see ryu(in different clothes finally)next to guy(in purple)and ken is looking at ryu pointing his thumb as if he is saying "let's go ryu".. and BTW ken has goldfish in his hand. i hope this helped. Posted by Azrael-sama on 01:21:2002 05:47 AM: I remember reading about prounciations in a game magazine a while back...so I guess I'll give it a try. Ryu: Sounds like Rie-yu. The most common way to f'up his name is to say it like "Rye-yu". Bascially, it sounds like like the "Ryu" in "Shoryuken!". "See you, Ryu" should rhyme, or at least sound simliar. Dhalsim: Sounds like Doll-seem. The h is silent, and emphasis on the "sim". Zangief: Zan sounds like you'd think - gief rhymes with "thief" I've also heard another prounciation...with a silent i, so that the "gef" would rhyme with "Jeff". I'm not sure which one is the right one... Blanka: Don't think of it as "Blank-a", but "Blan-ka". Sagat: Sounds like "Suh-got". Gouki: I'm pretty sure it's "Go-key", with a slight drag on the "Go". I've also heard that the "o" at the end of Rolento's name is supposed to be silent, but I don't know how true that is. If anyone has SFA2, I think the announcer actually used to say the character's names in certain places. Posted by Berias on 01:21:2002 06:50 AM: quote: Originally posted by Azrael-sama Ryu: Sounds like Rie-yu. The most common way to f'up his name is to say it like "Rye-yu". Bascially, it sounds like like the "Ryu" in "Shoryuken!". "See you, Ryu" should rhyme, or at least sound simliar. The way the say it in the animated movie, "REE-you" is wrong, or at least very stupid. When they do the dragon punch it sounds different but it's hard to hear. quote: Originally posted by Azrael-sama Dhalsim: Sounds like Doll-seem. The h is silent, and emphasis on the "sim". I'm pretty sure "a" does not make an "o" sound. That's an easy name. quote: Originally posted by Azrael-sama Sagat: Sounds like "Suh-got". Suh-got or Sah-gat? This one is hard. Both a's in the last one are like the a in "apple". I know it's a Thai word that means "protector". quote: Originally posted by Azrael-sama I've also heard that the "o" at the end of Rolento's name is supposed to be silent, but I don't know how true that is. That is a dillema also. I've seen the Dragonball show on cartoon network a few times where they say this name "Cakarot". But a friend tells me in Japan they add an "o" on the end. I don't know for sure because I don't watch Japanese animation. And Rolento, like you said, may have a non-existing "O". The SFA2 announcer says "Rolent!" when you select him. However, he also says "Buddy!" when you pick Birdie. How about Urien? I've always said "Ooh-RYE-in" (like "u" in the Spanish word "Uno") because that sounds the least like "urine". I've heard wierd variations, even that it was supposed to be "Julius" or "Julian" after Caesar since Urien looks like urine. How embarrassing. Saiki, this is a good time to jump in. Posted by Azrael-sama on 01:21:2002 07:21 AM: quote: Originally posted by Berias That is a dillema also. I've seen the Dragonball show on cartoon network a few times where they say this name "Cakarot". But a friend tells me in Japan they add an "o" on the end. I don't know for sure because I don't watch Japanese animation. And Rolento, like you said, may have a non-existing "O". The SFA2 announcer says "Rolent!" when you select him. However, he also says "Buddy!" when you pick Birdie. Well, Japanese is sort of limited when it comes to phonetics. Nothing ends in a consonant, with the exception on "n", or something that ends in the silent "u". So, if they wanted something to end with a "t", it would have to be "to". For DBZ, Goku's Saiya-jin name is Kakarotto...I personally feel that this is how they intended the name, since you have the "-tto" and if they wanted just "Kakarot" they could have used "Kakaroto". For another character, Kibit, his name in Japanese is "Kibito" but most regard him as Kibit, except in the CN version where he is Kibito. Go figure. quote: Saiki, this is a good time to jump in. *agrees* He knows far more Japanese than I. Posted by Saiki on 01:21:2002 05:34 PM: I'll post all the ones that I know for sure. Ryu - Sounds just like the Ryu in "Shoryuken" Blanka - Rhymes with Tonka Sagat - Suh-got Zangief - it should be pronounced Zan-gi-ef. The gi should almost sound silent but is still pronounced. Dhalsim - Doll-seem Gouki - Go-key Feilong - the g at the end should be silent Balrog - ball-rog. I think Dan - Done Juli/Juni - Yuli and Yuni Karin - Ka-rin. Not pronounced Karen. Rolento - The o at the end should be silent. This is a limitation on the japanese language. Necro - Neck-row Urien - It's suppossed to be Julian with the J being silent. I think the guys who made SFIII screwed this one up. I think thats all the SF names that are hard to pronounce or mis-pronounced. Hope this helps Posted by Clay on 01:21:2002 08:44 PM: So it is really pronounced Rolent. Ever since Z2, I had always wondered about that. I'm glad to see that I've been using the correct pronounciations, the only one that looks funny to me is Yuli/Yuni, but that's understandable. I remember thinking about Julian before, but I was never 100% sure, thanks for the confirmation. Because I wasn't around when the topic came up, I just wanted to add that I think that Sagat is often underrated by most people. He would definitely beat Ken. The only time that Ken has any chance at winning at all would have been back in the early portions of the Zero storyline (after SF1 through Z2). This is when Sagat is at his weakest, as shown by his bout with Adon. Otherwise, I think that Sagat should be heavily favored. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:21:2002 09:17 PM: An official pic of Guy with Ryu and Ken that wasn't promotional? Hmm... well, I guess that's enough for it to be practically confirmed as official. Thanks^^ Ah. It being pronounced Rolent would explain why his name is Rolent in Final Fight 2 instead of Rolento. I saw Yuli/Yuni on a Japanese site. I attributed it to the fact that, for Japanese, doesn't the "J" sound not exist? Or at least, it doesn't exist when it's followed by a 'u'. That would also be why the J is supposed to be silent in Urian/Julian. Because the letter 'l' can sometimes be misplaced with 'r' in Japanese, sometimes Juli is pronounced as Yuri. Weeeee. (And another explanation why they could mistralanslate it as Urien instead of Ulian/Julian/what-have-you). I'm thinking people don't realize that in Capcom's eyes, Sagat, Balrog, and Vega are still considered bosses (despite being toned down to be balanced with everyone else). In SFA3 home versions, you fight them in Boss survival mode despite how none of them are obligatory boss battles for the most part (with the exception of Balrog). Erm, going by American names here for me, as always. Storyline-wise, boss characters are always supposed to be rather powerful... Course, since Balrog is the lowest of those bosses, that would be why he's only in the 5th tier. Erm... yea:P Posted by Clay on 01:21:2002 09:46 PM: Actually, the feeling that I get is that most people overlook Sagat because Ryu beat him back in SF1. They reason that if Ryu was able to defeat him back then when he (Ryu) was considerably less mature than he is now, then he doesn't pose that much of a threat to the more current fighters. People who aren't in touch with the storyline don't realize that not only were there extenuating circumstances around that loss (satsui no hadou), but Sagat himself has matured and improved greatly since then. I'm really, really, really hoping that he'll make a return in the next SF (if we are ever blessed with another one). I've always had a big interest in Sagat and even though Ryu has always been my favorite, that doesn't make me like Sagat any less. His current strength of character draws me to him that much more. Here's to hoping that he gets the respect that he's earned. -Clay Posted by goukigirl2002 on 01:22:2002 01:22 AM: wow, this thread is resurrecting! Posted by FistsofFury on 01:22:2002 01:36 AM: Yeah to second Clay's post...Sagat does not get enough credit. He's grown so much during the Street Fighter saga...IMHO even more than Ryu. Sagat was overtaken by rage and hatred...and eventually freed himself from it. Plus....Sagat is on par with the other Street Fighters like Ryu and Ken in terms of strength....if not stronger. If you want to read my redition of the final fight between Ryu and Sagat...check my fanfic Son of Bison, Chapters 7 and 8 *shameless plug over* Posted by Clay on 01:22:2002 06:44 AM: quote: Originally posted by FistsofFury Yeah to second Clay's post...Sagat does not get enough credit. He's grown so much during the Street Fighter saga...IMHO even more than Ryu. Sagat was overtaken by rage and hatred...and eventually freed himself from it. Plus....Sagat is on par with the other Street Fighters like Ryu and Ken in terms of strength....if not stronger. I'd say superior to nearly every other SF'er besides the Big Three (if you don't know who these are by now, then you either haven't played SF3 at all, haven't been reading this thread, or are totally ignorant). Imo, Ken is definitely not "on par" with Sagat. Not only is Sagat bigger and stronger than Ken, he also controls his ki better, and is more devoted to his fighting than Ken. That's too much to overcome. Many people would say that Ryu could beat Sagat, but I wouldn't put money on it. Ryu still has a ways to go before he can even scratch the surface of his potential. This may upset some people, but I've often stated that Ryu has and always will be my favorite character, however, I don't think that he is able to win a straight up fight with Sagat yet. I'd say that Ryu would go into the fight, the underdog. Sure, he could pull out a win, but the odds are not in his favor. Sagat vs. Urien might be interesting, but I don't doubt at all that Sagat would take this one. It may seem like a good match up physically (both are imposing figures and are in excellent shape), but I consider Urien to be to sloppy mentally (he's overzealous, has too much pride, and overestimates his own abilities while remaining ignorant of his opponent's; not a good combination) to stand up to a superbly trained fighter like Sagat. Sagat has too much focus and discipline, while remaining balanced and clear-headed at the same time. He would exploit Urien's foolishness all too easily, and against Sagat, one mistake could be the end. quote: If you want to read my redition of the final fight between Ryu and Sagat...check my fanfic Son of Bison, Chapters 7 and 8 *shameless plug over* I read it a while back and whether you're rooting for Ryu or Sagat, you'll be happy with the outcome. Does a Ryu and Sagat fan proud. -Clay Posted by Clay on 01:22:2002 07:34 AM: quote: Originally posted by God of Death ...Another question is I read someone saying that Oro defeated Ryu easily. Is this true and how do you know. I heard that he did defeat Ryu, but how do you find out the level of the that match or any match in the thread. Thanks. Some of the information has been provided by sources outside of the games. This is info that was only implied or never actually mentioned in the game but confirmed by Capcom of Japan. Capcom has a fairly shady history as far as storytelling goes, so sometimes it's necessary for them to add details or events. Ryu and Sagat's SF1 fight is an example of this. Only use info provided by CoJ though, as they are the only reliable and official source. Never trust Cap USA... never. A lot of the details and extra info that Saiki provides comes directly from Capcom of Japan, that's why it is so accurate. As always, thanks to Saiki for all of the information that he supplies. The rest of the info is pulled from the games themselves. You just have to figure out whose endings advance the story and what is contradictory. Unfortunately for anybody playing the American versions of the games (myself included), Cap USA has a bad habit of screwing things up. However, the SF3 series (at least 3s) was a pretty good translation, so maybe they will continue to improve. Sometimes you can get a glimpse of how the fighters match up from there endings. Z2 has a few good examples of this, particularly in Gouki's and Chun's endings. In Gouki's ending, Gen is shown lying on the floor, but you can tell that he's still ready to fight. This shows that Gen is a pretty good challenge for Gouki and that they would have to fight to the death to figure out who is better. Meanwhile, in Chun's ending, Vega just brushes her off, showing that Chun isn't anywhere near as strong as Vega. In a fight like this, Vega would barely have to try at all. Also, words spoken between the characters help convey how the battle went. Ryu and Ken's Z2 fight has the feeling of a sparring or friendly match. They obviously bear no malice towards eachother and intend to meet again. They both feel that they are about equal in strength. Meanwhile, Adon and Sagat both hold grudges against eachother and are fighting for superiority. This match would definitely be more vicious and hard fought than the one between Ryu and Ken. As for the Oro-Ryu match... well, Oro did beat Ryu with only one arm. Now if that isn't taking it easy, then I don't know what is. Also in his (Oro's) 3s ending he states that Ryu could be ready to provide a real challenge in about 15 years. That shows that any previous encounters were merely childs play. Hope that helps. -Clay Posted by Berias on 01:22:2002 09:25 PM: quote: Originally posted by Clay Sagat vs. Urien might be interesting, but I don't doubt at all that Sagat would take this one. It may seem like a good match up physically (both are imposing figures and are in excellent shape), but I consider Urien to be to sloppy mentally (he's overzealous, has too much pride, and overestimates his own abilities while remaining ignorant of his opponent's; not a good combination) to stand up to a superbly trained fighter like Sagat. Sagat has too much focus and discipline, while remaining balanced and clear-headed at the same time. He would exploit Urien's foolishness all too easily, and against Sagat, one mistake could be the end. -Clay I don't know. Urien is probably a genius, if you go by 12's ending. Plus, I think he's sometimes got a bad rap ( compared to other cool headed fighters like Ryu) since he says a lot of severe stuff, like kill, die, crush, punish, and stuff like that. That doesn't mean he's sloppy mentally or bad at making judgements. Maybe he's not as far from his brother as some think. He's had basically the same "breeding" as Gill. Or put it like this. Do you think Urien is so much weaker than Gill he couldn't beat Ryu? I wonder if Sagat would give up fighting completely? I think he seems more like the kind of person who would burn out and not rust out. But it's hard to imagine Ryu killing anyone, so maybe he'll die to somone else (Sagat vs Q, anyone?). Posted by FistsofFury on 01:23:2002 03:16 AM: quote: Originally posted by Berias I wonder if Sagat would give up fighting completely? I think he seems more like the kind of person who would burn out and not rust out. But it's hard to imagine Ryu killing anyone, so maybe he'll die to somone else (Sagat vs Q, anyone?). I doubt Sagat would do either.....IMHO Sagat would know if it was time to gracefully bow out and let the New Generation through. He'd probably train someone in his style too, either before or after he left the World's stage. Posted by Berias on 01:23:2002 04:01 AM: That's what I mean by rusting out. Posted by Golden Dragon on 01:23:2002 04:16 AM: GoukiGirl2002 I saw that picture as well. It's really cool. It's the picture of Ryu wearing a white robe-type outfit, Guy wearing a purple kimono-type outfit, and Ken wearing a t-shirt, shorts, and a backwards baseball cap, right? I see it occasionally when I'm on the net. I wish I could find it right now so I could show it to Tiamat. Posted by God of Death on 01:23:2002 04:22 AM: God I love this thread!!! Anyway I have a couple of comments okay you guys have won me over Sagat would take Ken down. I agree without the rage he would kick Ken's ass!!! What I disagree with though is the comment that Sagat could probably beat Ryu. My reasoning is that Even though Sagat was better that Ryu when they first fought he wasted years in anger while Ryu continued to train and get stronger and more skillful. Also like someone said before remember that Ryu like Gouki is always holding back when he fights. I still believe even without using his styles true techniques that Ryu could take Sagat, but I think it would be by an extremly small margin. Holla back!!!!!!!! Posted by Golden Dragon on 01:23:2002 04:35 AM: Btw I just found this really nice picture of Ryu. Maybe more people have seen it than I think, but I'll put up the link anyways 'cuz it's a really kick-ass picture. http://www.chronogn.f2s.com/streetfighter/Ryu02.jpg This one too: http://www.crosswinds.net/~rcllair/clrms4/sfgang.jpg By the way, you have to copy & paste the above link for it to work. Peace out. Posted by Azrael-sama on 01:23:2002 04:53 AM: quote: Originally posted by Golden Dragon This one too: http://www.crosswinds.net/~rcllair/clrms4/sfgang.jpg By the way, you have to copy & paste the above link for it to work. Peace out. That's a nice pic Golden Dragon, thanks! I just wish it were a little clearer...it's so strange to see Ryu in street clothes. And who is that girl between Blanka and Honda...is that Blanka's mother? Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:23:2002 04:56 AM: Yea, that looks like Blanka's mother. Blanka's mother is rather short and a little stout and has a hairstyle similar to that^^ Cool pic, GD^^ Ryu in a robe? Oo Wow, I seem to vaaaguely recall Guy in a purple Kimono and Ken in Street Clothes but Ryu in a robe isn't ringing a bell. Dang, I wish I could see that pic. It seems cool. LOL. Vega is dressed like Zorro... Posted by Clay on 01:23:2002 07:36 AM: quote: Originally posted by Berias I don't know. Urien is probably a genius, if you go by 12's ending. Plus, I think he's sometimes got a bad rap ( compared to other cool headed fighters like Ryu) since he says a lot of severe stuff, like kill, die, crush, punish, and stuff like that. That doesn't mean he's sloppy mentally or bad at making judgements. I’m not doubting his intelligence, sorry if that’s the impression that I gave off, I happen to agree that Urien seems to be very intelligent. What I am doubting is his strength of character (or lack there of); there is a quite a difference between the two. Urien is arrogant; I don’t think that there is any denying of this. This is a pretty big flaw on it’s own and usually leads to poor decision making. One advantage that Sagat and Ryu have over Urien is that they wouldn’t ever underestimate their opponent. Urien’s over confidence in himself makes him ill-prepared for battle. I think that he is prone to underestimating his opponents, which is one of the worst mistakes a warrior can make. Couple that with his violent and aggressive nature plus his hatred of his own brother and you have a recipe for disaster. A fighter like Vega could easily manipulate Urien to fit his own agenda. Against more balanced warriors like Ryu/Sagat, I can easily see Urien becoming frustrated because things aren’t going the way that he thinks they should be going. Tell me, in a test of wills and patience, who do you see winning? Ryu/Sagat or Urien. I don’t think that Urien measures up in this way. I view Urien as an incomplete fighter. He has a keen mind, strong body, and powerful abilities, but lacks the discipline and maturity necessary to push him into that group of elite warriors. It’s these flaws that lead to poor judgment calls. quote: Maybe he's not as far from his brother as some think. He's had basically the same "breeding" as Gill. Just because Gill and Urien share a common background doesn’t really mean squat to me. Sometimes people brought up in the same environment have totally different personalities because, simply put, they’re different people. Examples of this can be seen in most families. One of my brothers and I were born within 3 years of each other (I am the elder). Because we were raised in nearly the same environment, we have similar interests and attitudes on most things. Even with this in mind, we are two completely different people. The way that we perceive and interact with the world around us is totally different, sometimes to the point where we don’t understand/agree with actions that the other takes. It could be seen from the very beginning that we handled the situations very differently, and no amount of “breeding” was going to change that. Even if we have similar goals in life, we will probably choose very different paths towards attaining them. The same thing applies to Gill and Urien. Even though they have a common background and have similar fighting styles there are major differences between the two. While Gill almost seems to be the epitome of balance and unification, Urien is almost the exact opposite. quote: Or put it like this. Do you think Urien is so much weaker than Gill he couldn't beat Ryu? Long answer: "Yes" with an "if". or Equally long answer: "No" with a "but". Let me put it this way: Whereas I think that Gill would wipe the floor with Ryu, I think that Urien would have a much harder time beating him. Even if Urien were to beat him, the fact that he has to struggle with him at all shows the disparity between the two that I believe exists. In the end, I think that the question is irrelevant because, imo, there is a striking difference between their abilities. I don’t think that Urien is even close to being the half the man that his brother is. He’s got a long way to go. I think that Gill's mindset has a lot to do with his superiority over his brother. Also, for the record, I think that Ryu has a pretty good shot at beating Urien (see paragraph 1). When push comes to shove, there are very few people who are more skilled than Ryu or can overpower him, let alone both. Imo, Urien is not one of these people. He currently has too many weaknesses. quote: I wonder if Sagat would give up fighting completely? I think he seems more like the kind of person who would burn out and not rust out. But it's hard to imagine Ryu killing anyone, so maybe he'll die to somone else (Sagat vs Q, anyone?). Like FoF, I could see Sagat retiring. He seems to have taken on a very Ryu-like mindset in the sense that he wants to be the best that he can be and not worry about titles or superiority. If he finds his ultimate challenge in Ryu someday, then he might decide that that is as far as he wants to go. Who knows? I had tried to think of a Sagat-Q scenario earlier, but since I know next to nothing on Q, I didn’t want to waste my time with useless conjecture. Here’s to hoping that we’ll get some Q info some day. Thanks for the reply Berias. -Clay Posted by Clay on 01:23:2002 08:57 AM: quote: Originally posted by God of Death God I love this thread!!! Anyway I have a couple of comments okay you guys have won me over Sagat would take Ken down. I agree without the rage he would kick Ken's ass!!! What I disagree with though is the comment that Sagat could probably beat Ryu. My reasoning is that Even though Sagat was better that Ryu when they first fought he wasted years in anger while Ryu continued to train and get stronger and more skillful. Also like someone said before remember that Ryu like Gouki is always holding back when he fights. I still believe even without using his styles true techniques that Ryu could take Sagat, but I think it would be by an extremly small margin. Holla back!!!!!!!! I said that Ryu would enter the fight as the underdog, not that he had no chance of winning. Much like their first encounter Ryu is fighting an uphill battle, though I think that the gap between the two has been closed considerably. Actually, I was the one who mentioned that Ryu holds back when he fights; however, even in an all-out fight, I don’t think that this helps his cause any. At this point, Sagat has reached a stage where he is a little more advanced than Ryu. He’s fought through all of his personal demons and become a stronger man because of it while we’re not sure if Ryu has really mastered himself and Satsui no Hadou. The fact that SnH may be buried in the back of Ryu’s mind may hinder his ability to fight with full force from the get go. Sagat has no such problem. Little differences like this play a very important role in determining the victor, especially in a fight of this caliber. In any situation where Ryu doesn’t come out with everything that he’s got right away, Sagat will probably be able to take him out before it gets close. Once again, I’d like to just remind people not to forget how powerful Sagat really is. One of the things that really impressed me was that even in Z2 when Sagat wasn’t focused; he was still able to put Adon in the hospital. Think of what a balanced Sagat is capable of. If Ryu has any doubts at all, then he has already lost, unless Sagat himself slips up. Anything could happen in any given fight, I’m just saying that Sagat has the advantage. The fact that it is such a close fight just plays into Sagat’s hands even more, where there is no room for error and every little bit counts. Sagat seems to just have that extra edge. Also, special thanks to Golden Dragon for the artwork. I love that stuff and I can’t get enough of it. It leaves me wanting more. -Clay Posted by Agent Guile on 01:23:2002 10:29 AM: Hmmm...I think the idea to make Charlie more powerful than Guile is Capcom's way of making that character popular. I mean, without that fact, who would like Charlie anyway? Posted by goukigirl2002 on 01:24:2002 02:17 AM: ok, i scanned the pic of guy,ryu and ken.from my alpha 2 guide.. copy & paste http://www.geocities.com/hawaiigirls2002/guys.jpg and golden dragon: i've seen that ryu image before and it looks somewhat official. but i dought ryu would do something like that in public. Posted by Golden Dragon on 01:24:2002 03:53 AM: GoukiGirl2002 I doubt that as well, but whatever. I just think it's a really sweet pic. Peace out for now. Btw, I see you've scanned that picture. That's the exact one I was talkin' 'bout. I've never seen it that clearly before. Most of the times I've seen it, it looks really blurry. Thanks a lot. Tiamat Sorry, maybe I used the wrong word. It's similar to a robe and his arms are exposed. I'm not sure what to call it. Posted by Clay on 01:24:2002 04:11 AM: quote: Originally posted by Agent Guile Hmmm...I think the idea to make Charlie more powerful than Guile is Capcom's way of making that character popular. I mean, without that fact, who would like Charlie anyway? Well, I do, for one. Nash was the creater of their fighting style and the previous USMA champion, what's not to like? Even though he was killed in nearly every ending of his, I always thought that he was pretty cool. Seeing Nash tackle Vega from behind in Guiles Z3 ending was too cool. One of my favorite scenes of all time. -Clay Ps Thanks to GoukiGirl for the scan. Posted by Agent Guile on 01:24:2002 06:24 AM: I've posted this in my other threads, but I think it would be nice to this here. If the US SF animated series came out before Street Fighter Alpha 1, then that means the human prototye that was used for creating Charlie was the human form of Carlos Blanka from that cartoon series. The two looked very similar to each other. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:24:2002 07:36 AM: Street Fighter Alpha 1 isn't canon (Street Fighter Alpha 2 replaces it in every way. Official statement by Capcom). There are no animated series or movies or cartoons which are canon at all^^ Posted by Golden Hell on 01:24:2002 01:46 PM: Agent Guile - The US SF cartoon came after Alpha. There was an episode were they showed all the other Alpha characters like Rose, Adon, etc. I think that came up during the second season. But anyways, that cartoon was a disgrace to SF so none of it should be taken seriously. I mean, c'mon, they used the Van Damme movie as the set up for the cartoon series. Back to the topic of Sagat - I never really liked him as a character before. He was just a typical lackey or lapdog for Bison and Shadaloo (and a very lankey and scrawny lackey at that). He was just another "out for revenge" guy. The only thing that made him slightly cool was that he was a boss. I started to like him a bit more in the Alpha series cause he was starting to develop some sort of personality. But after that long thread in gamefaqs and of course this thread here, Sagat is now one of my favorites in the SF universe. He is a man of honor, which is an aspect I like a whole lot better than just "Revenge, Revenge, Revenge!". He fought personal demons and overcame his hatred. He now has a more thorough and in-depth backstory. Thats just cool. Posted by Berias on 01:24:2002 08:45 PM: Clay You have some amazing insights. I agree mostly, but I think you can separate violence from arrogance (retaining violence)and not subtract from the character's figting ability. Sorry if I got across the idea "same background = same character"; what I meant was Gill contained the power of previous emperors and at least some of that should show up in Urien. You don't think Q is a likely candidate to kill Sagat? How about maybe Gouken's daughter? Posted by God of Death on 01:25:2002 01:53 AM: I still will not by that in a fight between Ryu and Sagat that Ryu would have an uphill battle. The lowest I will go is equal. Yes Ryu may still have doubts about his darkside, but then again that is not metioned at all in Street Fighter 3 so I'm going to assume that he is over it. At the same time Sagat may have doubts about losing to Ryu again even though he is at the top of his game. Anyway I have a question for Clay why doea Ryu get all crazy when he uses his arts true form and Gouki doesn't. You may have gave the answer before, but I just want to know. On another note even though I disagree with you I still respect the fact that you go off of facts and theory instead of opinion. Holla back!!!! Posted by Bowling Pin on 01:26:2002 05:02 AM: quote: Originally posted by Golden Hell He is a man of honor, which is an aspect I like a whole lot better than just "Revenge, Revenge, Revenge!". He fought personal demons and overcame his hatred. Exactly. I remember reading the Sagat intro in A3, and I was surprized by that line..."But, Sagat realized that the power of hatred was limited." Then his sprite went into a pondering stance. Then, in Ryu's ending, when memories of all of Ryu's friends included Sagat, I suddenly found a new favorite character. Sagat went and fought one of the hardest battles in all of Street Fighter and won. If only he was in 3rd Strike, lanky version. Posted by FistsofFury on 01:26:2002 05:07 PM: quote: Originally posted by Bowling Pin Exactly. I remember reading the Sagat intro in A3, and I was surprized by that line..."But, Sagat realized that the power of hatred was limited." Then his sprite went into a pondering stance. Then, in Ryu's ending, when memories of all of Ryu's friends included Sagat, I suddenly found a new favorite character. Sagat went and fought one of the hardest battles in all of Street Fighter and won. If only he was in 3rd Strike, lanky version. I agree...I used to hate Sagat in SF2...cause he was just a copy of something else..but then n the Alpha series you get to see the struggle he went through....and he became on of my faves. Sagat in Third Strike? Am I the only one that thinks Sagat is done story-line wise? He's come full circle, he's gotten over his obstacles...what more is left for him? Posted by God of Death on 01:26:2002 05:31 PM: What's left is the final battle between him and Ryu until then his story will never be done. Posted by Bowling Pin on 01:26:2002 07:38 PM: Well, Sagat needs to start teaching the childrens. Sagat could be a background character, at least...raising two pupils, like Ryu and Ken. Posted by Nemesis00 on 01:27:2002 07:42 AM: Hey.Im a real big fan of Blanka and Vega(claw) and have always wanted to know their true story.Id search throught the entire thread but Im getting confused as hell so if someone could do me the favor and post stuff like a bio, background, allies/foes it would be nice. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 01:27:2002 10:02 AM: quote: Originally posted by Bowling Pin Well, Sagat needs to start teaching the childrens. Sagat could be a background character, at least...raising two pupils, like Ryu and Ken. A new pair of Muay Thai fighters would be very interesting to see actually. I'd also like to see how they'd fare against Yun and Yang. Speaking of which, aren't Yun and Yang supposed to be Gen's grandchildren? They're both Lee's sons and Lee is the son of Gen, yet I've heard from another source that Gen only trained Yun and Yang and is not related to them biologically. Don't mind me if this question has already come up. Posted by Agent Guile on 01:27:2002 10:46 AM: quote: Originally posted by Nemesis00 Hey.Im a real big fan of Blanka and Vega(claw) and have always wanted to know their true story.Id search throught the entire thread but Im getting confused as hell so if someone could do me the favor and post stuff like a bio, background, allies/foes it would be nice. Read Tiamat's plot FAQ at www.gamefaqs.com. Look in the Street Fighter Alpha 3 section and open the plot faq. Posted by Siegfried on 01:27:2002 02:07 PM: Lee is Yun and Yang's father, but Gen isn't Lee's father. IIRC Gen taught Yun and Yang after their parents' death. Blanka has a really silly story - he was lost in the Amazons and raised by animals. Capcom Japan doesn't seem to deny this story. Somewhere along the road he met Dan. As for Vega, you'd better read the FAQ. The only thing I do know is that his full name is NOT something with "Fabio" ^_^. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 01:27:2002 06:02 PM: Thanks. EDIT: BTW, TiamatRoar, I hope you checked your PMs by now. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:27:2002 08:23 PM: I recomend you post storyline tidbits to this thread instead of private messaging them to me. I'm just a parrot, really The FAQ is made up mostly of information from other people that I just happened to transcribe to it. Something which I tried to make clear in the FAQ's disclaimers but I guess they often get missed by most people. Oh yea, I also recomend not bothering with the SFA3 plot guide too much. It's kinda out of date. SInce then most characters have had new revelations come up and been updated, but that's in a different FAQ and gamefaqs hasn't posted that one up yet (they should soon, though. I submitted it to them last night). The SFA3 plot guide is still good for analyzing how all of SFA3's endings and storylines merged together, but for specific character info (as well as info on all SF games besides just SFA3), the full-blown SF plot guide that I submitted to GameFaqs and to Fightermania is a much more up-to-date choice. ^^ Or you can dig through this thread and find where I posted the URL to it, but Geocities only gives me so much bandwidth... And I still need to figure out a lot of the Lee info there. I heard somewhere that Lee was killed by the mafia for losing the SF1 tournament... Posted by Grenade Falcon on 01:27:2002 09:44 PM: As you all have obviously noticed , I PMed Tiamat a while ago and he asked if it was okay to bring this interesting little tidbit out into the light, so here's something you should take note of. The Darkstalkers series may actually take place within the Street Fighter universe, even though Capcom has made no official statements about it. In Felicia's Darkstalkers 1 ending, she is finally brought into movie stardom, probably takes up dancing and then later says she hopes she'll have Blanka as her leading man. It's unclear if this is just a joke ending, but when you think about it, why would it be? Blanka has to be Capcom's only existing HUMAN beast, so it's possible that Felicia heard word of a green beast roaming around looking for fights at some point and desired to meet him. Remember that Felicia was born on Earth, not the demon realm where characters like Demitri or Morrigan come from. If this is true from Capcom of Japan's perspective, which I feel is likely, then this also supports the possibility that Anita is actually Rose. Like Clay, I also think it would be pretty bizarre if a commmon Street Fighter character like Ryu crossed paths with an undead fighting creature. However, in all seriousness, I felt the same way about Final Fight characters crossing over to Street Fighter Alpha against guys who possess incredible amounts of ki, which allow them to throw fireballs and perform other flashy moves. To further support my theory that DS and SF may be connected, I'll use my speculation on how the main theme of Capcom vs. SNK may essentially be SF vs. KOF from another thread. I've once gotten into a practically stupid flamewar here because of this, but I guess I've been expecting too much from a bunch of guys who think SF and KOF involve only martial artists without giving into consideration that there are stories that occur outside of them. I don't want to believe that Capcom just pulled their own characters and SNK's out of a hat to decide who should be in the CvS series. Everything they do, from character picks to story, has to have a reason behind it, despite how many biased anti-Capcom-ers consider Capcom to be storyline-retarded and that they don't know how to make a good game. I'll list the games from which every character in CvS2 came from and give a brief statement on how those games are connected to either SF or KOF. Please note that this does not explain why each specific character made the cut. Just that the games they came from are tied to one of the two main series. CAPCOM Rival Schools: Sakura is a friend of Hinata and Natsu, even though she has no story in Rival Schools. Final Fight: SFA makes this crystal clear, doesn't it? Darkstalkers: For Felcia's ending, see above. Then there's the possibility that Anita is actually Rose. SNK Fatal Fury, Art of Fighting: Obviously connected through KOF. Samurai Shodown: Todo, who is from Art of Fighting, and Mai from Fatal Fury appeared in a couple of SS2 endings. This is simply impossible given the time that Samurai Shodown takes place, but this at least makes it liable that Samurai Shodown belongs in the same universe as KOF. Also, SNK hasn't officially stated that Mai and Gen-An are related, but that is still a good possibility. Last Blade: Zantetsu Kisaragi is the ancestor of Eiji from Art of Fighting. As I said, this does not cover why Capcom chose some characters for CvS2 instead of the ones who make the connections between their respective series and SF or KOF. They could've thrown in any Darkstalkers character besides Morrigan. That doesn't matter. What's important is that Darkstalkers has some relationship to Street Fighter, and not just because they were made by the same company. Now one may argue that Capcom intended the CvS series to be more realistic, unlike the MvC series. That's just part of the reason. You can even say that Capcom wanted to have at least one character that represents every major fighting game series from both sides. If that's true, then why isn't Star Gladiator being represented? After all, Hayato already has a working 2D sprite, so it wouldn't be too hard to put him in CvS3 so he could rival Haohmaru, right? As much as I'd like to see it happen, I don't think it will. Star Gladiator is the only fighting game series that isn't connected to Street Fighter in any way, shape or form. Otherwise, if Capcom DID want all of their fighting games to be represented in CvS, they would've used Hayato or some other SG character by now. On an off topic note, it's mentioned in Tiamat's SFA3 Plot Guide that Akuma does not just go around killing people. However, that statement is contradicted by Akuma's Third Strike ending (where he attacks a submarine and splits a huge ship in half), as well as his SF3 winquotes. These quotes probably aren't memorized word for word, but some of them are: - "The weak must be removed from existance." - "You fulfilled your purpose in life by allowing me to end it." - "A weak soul in a weak shell. It was an easy task seperating the two." - "Your body assumed its proper form when my fists tore it apart." Akuma obviously didn't care much for weaklings in previous games. My guess though, is that he had fought so many of them, that his frustration of battling weaklings turned to hatred towards them as he further progressed through mastering his art, and that he will choose not to waste any more time with them and kill them to relieve himself. Hope this helps any. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:27:2002 10:00 PM: Random. Oi, sure are a lot of people who say that it was Alpha that tied in Final Fight to Street Fighter. Guess I should probably remember to clear up that misconception in the plot guide. Truth is, it wasn't Alpha that made Final Fight part of the Street Fighter canon. Final Fight has been tied to Street Fighter ever since Street Fighter 2. Capcom specifically stated on many occassions back before Street Fighter Alpha was even an IDEA that Zangief and Haggar in the storyline were officially rivals. It just wasn't until Alpha that they decided to make Final Fight characters playable, but the fact that Final Fight and Street Fighter existed within the same world has been a fact since looooong before Alpha^^ Posted by Grenade Falcon on 01:27:2002 10:13 PM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Random. Oi, sure are a lot of people who say that it was Alpha that tied in Final Fight to Street Fighter. Guess I should probably remember to clear up that misconception in the plot guide. Truth is, it wasn't Alpha that made Final Fight part of the Street Fighter canon. Final Fight has been tied to Street Fighter ever since Street Fighter 2. Capcom specifically stated on many occassions back before Street Fighter Alpha was even an IDEA that Zangief and Haggar in the storyline were officially rivals. It just wasn't until Alpha that they decided to make Final Fight characters playable, but the fact that Final Fight and Street Fighter existed within the same world has been a fact since looooong before Alpha^^ Oh yes, thanks for reminding me. I forgot about the rivalry between Zangief and Haggar. But for those who didn't know, especially newbs, Alpha really did a good job of expressing the Final Fight/Street Fighter connection. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 01:27:2002 10:38 PM: Like Clay, I also think it would be pretty bizarre if a commmon Street Fighter character like Ryu crossed paths with an undead fighting creature. Oops. Sorry for the mix-up. I just went back to that page and remembered that Golden Hell was the one who made that impression. Heh, heh, sorry Clay. Posted by Bowling Pin on 01:27:2002 10:46 PM: Question. This time, about Cyberbots. Didn't Mech Akuma come from Cyberbots? Why would a pilot bother to build an Akuma mech? Posted by Saiki on 01:28:2002 02:10 AM: Personally, I think the Vampire series and SF series are in the same universe. It's just that the two will probably never have any interaction with each other. No one from the SF series knows any Vampire series characters and none of Vampire characters know any SF'ers. In the Felicia's US ending, she says something about Blanka but in the Japanese ending, she says nothing like that. She pretty much says that her being a star is awesome. And the possibility that Anita is Rose is pretty thin right now. SFZ3 took place in 1990 while the Vampire series takes place between 1983~1999. So Anita being Rose isn't too likely. Oh and about Gouki's ending in SFIII 3rd, he didn't kill those people purposely. They were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Gouki was just doing the "Tenshoukairekijin" and they got in the way. Gouki won't stop the move just because some people might get killed by it. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 01:28:2002 02:40 AM: Is that so? Hmmmm, wonder why Capcom of America changed that? Oh well. It maybe just a hint that the two series can co-exist. I guess my CvS theory still holds true at least. I find it to be more than a mere coincidence that all the characters there have some relationship to SF and KOF. Part of Darkstalkers takes place on earth anyway, so if Capcom wanted to, they could use that as an excuse for those cameo appearances in Alpha 2! But then again, Strider, Captain Commando and Linn Kurosawa are there too, so it wouldn't be totally believable with those obstacles. I can understand that Third Strike ending, but I for one still think Akuma is the type to kill weak opponents due to his personality being depicted in his win-quotes. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 01:28:2002 06:12 AM: Okay, now I have a some questions of my own. 1. How is it that it was just Guy who defeated Sodom in Final Fight and not with Cody and Haggar? 2. How did the Andores become affiliated with Mad Gear and why is Poison the one traveling with Hugo to search for recruits for his wrestling army? 3. Has Charlie fought Rolento at all in Alpha 2-3? Thanks in advance. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:28:2002 07:27 AM: Here I'll stop being a parrot and make some attempts to answer these questions. 1. I believe Final Fight 1 was actually NOT Haggar, Cody, and Guy travelling in a group of three tromping through metro city, from what I can tell. They actually split up and went their separate ways through Metro City, but I imagine they all met up together at the end for the final fight against Belger. Judging from storylines and official statements, Guy was the one that hit the subways and defeated Sodom in the ring, and also the one that hit the Industrial Area and defeated Rolento (heavily implied). Judging by the boss dialogues in Final Fight One for the Gameboy Advance (assuming they can be taken for canon), Cody was the one that hit the slums, west side, and bay area to defeat Damnd, Edi. E, and Abigail. No clue what Haggar did during all of this. As for how this was all deduced, for example, Alpha Cody in Final Fight One remarks before fighting Rolento that he skipped right past the Industrial area and took a shortcut to go to the bay area to reach Belger... 2. Hugo (Andore Jr.) and Poison are good friends and were so during Final Fight (official statement). So of course Poison would be the one to go with him when he goes to take up wrestling. ^^ As for how the Andores got affiliated with Mad Gear... *shrug* Probably the same way everyone else did, probably. They just were free criminal chaotic minded and joined up. 3. I don't think so. There's nothing to indicate Charlie fought Rolento in Alpha 3 at all, and most of the majority of the Alpha 2 midboss battles apparently didn't happen from what I can see. Posted by Psycho Power J on 01:28:2002 01:19 PM: About Anita being Rose, I don't think that's possible. I believe I've heard somewhere that Anita is suppose to be the Light Savior when she becomes an adult. I think it is suppose to be a being powerful enough to wipe out all the Darkstalkers, which is why Donovan is watching over her and why Jedah wants to kill her. I don't have anything against Rose, but I don't think she's powerful enough to go around destroying Darkstalkers left and right. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:28:2002 07:04 PM: Random: Well, Street Fighter Plot Guide is at Gamefaqs^^ It's in the coin-op miscellaneous section. Which actually made me miss it the first time I went searching for it (for a minute there, I thought it might have gotten rejected for some strange reason). So... all new people can go there to check it out which should get them caught up on the majority of stuff in this thread, I think^^ Posted by Berias on 01:28:2002 09:19 PM: quote: Originally posted by Grenade Falcon I can understand that Third Strike ending, but I for one still think Akuma is the type to kill weak opponents due to his personality being depicted in his win-quotes. The idea is that the character is moraly ambiguous, not malevolent. He wouldn't stop intense training to save the life of any random person, but a purge of all weak people or using 100% force against every fighter is probably not on his agenda. Posted by Siegfried on 01:28:2002 10:02 PM: I'll have the new FAQ up the next time I update FM... whenever that is ^_^. >Also, SNK hasn't officially stated that Mai and Gen-An are related, but that is still a good possibility. Well, Gen-An's kids are small and green. And that's only 200 years before Fatal Fury, 10 generations at most. Maybe if Mai was small and green as well ^_^. >Star Gladiator is the only fighting game series that isn't connected to Street Fighter in any way, shape or form. Well, in Hayato's ending (SG2) you see a picture of Ryu. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 01:29:2002 07:38 AM: >Well, in Hayato's ending (SG2) you see a picture of Ryu. You serious? Damn, wonder what Saiki has to say about that. And about Gen-An's children, maybe one of them could've married and had a boy that wasn't green, and then that branch continued in the production of non-green children up to the day that Mai was born. It sure is a nice thought. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:29:2002 11:27 AM: Well, don't know much about Star Gladiator / Plasma Sword, but I'd be pretty sure that if it was just a picture in the ending, then it's probably just an easter egg... ^^ Posted by Clay on 01:29:2002 08:30 PM: Ugh. Second time trying to post this. Here goes: quote: Originally posted by Berias Clay You have some amazing insights. I agree mostly, but I think you can separate violence from arrogance (retaining violence)and not subtract from the character's figting ability. Sorry if I got across the idea "same background = same character"; what I meant was Gill contained the power of previous emperors and at least some of that should show up in Urien. You don't think Q is a likely candidate to kill Sagat? How about maybe Gouken's daughter? Berias: Thanks. Anyway, I can give on the violence thing. I mentioned it because I think that too much of anything is a never a good thing an Urien is excessively violent. I know that, for me, it would be a weakness that I would want to purge myself of. It kind of disturbs me and throws up a caution flag, however, that may just be me. Maybe cruelty would be a better word for it. Urien seems to enjoy violence and bringing destruction towards things too much. That's part of what makes him an interesting character, but I still can't help but think of it as a flaw. I guess that that's what I'm saying. I see what your saying about his power. I happen to think that Urien is already pretty powerful, but Gill just seems to be on a whole different level. Maybe Urien has the potential to match his bro and just hasn't been able to exploit it yet. Even with a power increase I still would view Gill as superior. He has something extra to him. Sagat vs. Q It's not that I don't think that Q is a good candidate, it's just that I don't have anything to go on. We don't really have any backround on Q to know just how strong he is or who he will fight. We aren't really able to make any assumptions and then back them up. We have even less to go on with Gouken's daughter. Who know's where she's been and what she has been doing? Who knows if she'll ever turn up in an SF game ever again. Who knows if Sagat or Q will be in another game? Heck, who knows if there will ever be another game. Alright, all kidding aside, Sagat vs. Q could be really cool. At first it may seem totally random, but they might have a connection. Q witnessed the destruction of Shadaloo so he and Sagat may know each other since Sagat just happened to be temporarily employed by Vega. Maybe they only know of each other. I'd say that at the very least, it's very likely that Q knows of Sagat. This would give an interesting motive and background to a possible fight. I'd like to see where Capcom would go with this. Since, at this point, we don't have enough info regarding Q, I'd rather not throw out a lot of foolish guesses. It makes me really want to find out some info about the future of SF. I look forward to your response and any ideas that you may have. I also wanted to add that your (berias) last post on Gouki summed up his attitude pretty well. Also, to anybody who is using quotes from Cap USA: Be careful. Those quotes may have been misinterpreted or changed completely. They also have a bad habit of leaving out a lot of dialogue. Cap USA has a notoriously bad history of screwing up Gouki's character. If you go back though this thread you'll find a lot of examples of that. -Clay Posted by Clay on 01:29:2002 08:46 PM: Turns out that the third time is the charm. I hate having my connection cut off. Anyway, there's a lot more that I wanted to post, but I don't really have the time right now. Hopefully, I can get back on tomorrow. I'm glad to see that there are some converted Sagat fans out there (FoF, Golden Hell, Bowling Pin). He's cool. I never thought of Sagat as boring or repetitive, even in the old SF2 days, merely misguided. I always hoped/thought that, over time, his anger would develop into a rivalry, and make him a better person/fighter. Couldn't be happier with the results. Sagat's always had a strong sense of honor, even when he worked for Shadaloo. Sagat was only using Shadaloo as a means to reach Ryu, he couldn't have cared less if Vega was succesful or not. Even in his lust for revenge he still held a distinct air of honor anound him. All he desired was a straight up, fair, one on one fight with Ryu. In this sense he still was honorable. He didn't want any advantages, just to prove that he was better. As misguided as he was, you could still see that deep down, he was still struggling to find himself. I hope that he's in the next game, can't wait to see it. -Clay Posted by Agent Guile on 01:30:2002 12:37 AM: I'm making a research about Guile's real full name, if he ever did have one. I once made a thread about that here in SRK months ago. After it got 100+ replies, it died (with still no confirmation on what Guile's real name). I resurrected it, and it got 100+ more replies again until it died. (still no one confirmed his real name) But someone presented an evidence. Problem is, no one who posted there can understand Japanese (that one is crucial in analyzing the evidence). If anyone here can speak or understand Japanese (or has a friend that does), please tell me. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 01:30:2002 01:03 AM: The one who's helping out with the info the most here is Saiki from what I can tell. He reads Japanese and he's also the one with Capcom's official story books. Can't be too certain if Capcom intended to give Guile a full name, though. Posted by Agent Guile on 01:30:2002 01:48 AM: Could you give me PM and tell me his email address? Posted by Grenade Falcon on 01:30:2002 02:40 AM: If you want to PM Saiki, just go to one of his posts (there's one at the top of this page) and click on the "pm" button. But there's really no need for that when you could just bring whatever insights you have to the table. I don't know his email address because I'm not too much involved with this thread, but still, let him know about it here. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:30:2002 03:06 AM: I'm positive that if a full name for Guile existed, this thread would have discovered it by now. Saiki posted the bios of nearly every character in SF existance that had one and it included full names for those that had them. Capcom in general doesn't give full names to most characters (not including Rival Schools). Posted by Agent Guile on 01:30:2002 04:20 AM: My assumption of Guile's real full name was based on Street Fighter 2 V episode 2, where I watched A Filipino dubbed version (translated from the orginal Japanese one) of it. It's the part where Ken saw Guile's poster in that military base cafe. In the Filipino dubbed version, I'm positive that Ken mentioned Guile's full name there (while looking at the poster), since I was able to watch that episode twice. (whereas he only said, "That's him. Guile." in the US dubbed version). Now, my goal was to get an audio copy of that scene in the Japanese dialogue version to find out whether Ken indeed mentioned Guile's full name there. I already have one. My problem now is, I don't know anyone who can understand Japanese. Until Grenade Falcon told me that Saiki does. So I need to get his email address and send him the audio file. I know Street Fighter 2 V is unreliable, but my only goal right now is to find out what Ken exactly said at that instant. Posted by God of Death on 01:30:2002 04:42 AM: Okay I have some questions. First, tell me if I'm wrongthe killing intent is the true art that Gouki was taught. And what Ken and Ryu's teacher was taught. And the Dark Hadou is when you hold back your emotions in and they come out in other ways like the urge to crush all. So here are my questions first is Gouki affected by the Dark Hadou(I don't think he is , but I just wanted to ask). Second when affected by this are you stronger and faster, does it increase a fighters ability? Did it give Ryu the knowledge to do a lethal Shoryuken to Sagat or just gave him extra power? And last, but not leastif it does increase power then Ryu vs Sin Gouki would be one hell of a fight if Ryu used the true arts of his tyle and became possed by the dark hadou!!! That's all and please don't tell me to read the thread because I have thanks. Holla!!!!!! Posted by God of Death on 01:30:2002 04:42 AM: Okay I have some questions. First, tell me if I'm wrongthe killing intent is the true art that Gouki was taught. And what Ken and Ryu's teacher was taught. And the Dark Hadou is when you hold back your emotions in and they come out in other ways like the urge to crush all. So here are my questions first is Gouki affected by the Dark Hadou(I don't think he is , but I just wanted to ask). Second when affected by this are you stronger and faster, does it increase a fighters ability? Did it give Ryu the knowledge to do a lethal Shoryuken to Sagat or just gave him extra power? And last, but not leastif it does increase power then Ryu vs Sin Gouki would be one hell of a fight if Ryu used the true arts of his tyle and became possed by the dark hadou!!! That's all and please don't tell me to read the thread because I have thanks. Holla!!!!!! Posted by Berias on 01:30:2002 10:32 AM: Clay Yeah. I doubt Sir Thong will ever match up to Gill. Aegis Reflector traps probably aren't as effective story-wise. I see what you're saying about his [Urien's] attitude. I just thought that was part of the appeal. The comments about Q/Gouken's daughter vs Sagat were my idea of a joke. I thought since no one knows about Q and Gouken's daughter's very existence is in question it would be funny to suggest that she would kill Sagat as if we knew a lot about her. It turned out to be "Stupid" stupid and not "funny" stupid like I meant it to. I'll resist the temptation to make comments like that from now on. Posted by Berias on 01:30:2002 10:48 AM: quote: Originally posted by God of Death killing intent is the true art that Gouki was taught. And what Ken and Ryu's teacher was taught. yes quote: Originally posted by God of Death And the Dark Hadou is when you hold back your emotions in and they come out in other ways like the urge to crush all. there is no "dark hadou". I think that's an invention of the street fighter alpha movie. quote: Originally posted by God of Death So here are my questions first is Gouki affected by the Dark Hadou(I don't think he is , but I just wanted to ask). Second when affected by this are you stronger and faster, does it increase a fighters ability? The true style probably changes the character. It seems to be outright stronger, but maybe total ability stays the same. quote: Originally posted by God of Death Did it give Ryu the knowledge to do a lethal Shoryuken to Sagat or just gave him extra power? Ryu wanted to win and went nuts, hitting Sagat with a cheapshot anstasu-ken shoryuken, not his normal one.The knowledge must have been there, so it gave him power. If anyone forgot, in SF1 the dragon punch was unblockable and killed the opponent in 1 go. quote: Originally posted by God of Death And last, but not leastif it does increase power then Ryu vs Sin Gouki would be one hell of a fight if Ryu used the true arts of his tyle It probably would be. Some people think Ryu has a skewed grasp of the "true" version, and despite the increase in raw power, he will be stronger in the long run if he sticks to what he uses now. He seems to be coming into his own way. It depends how Capcom decides to change it. I wonder if the series would boil down to that? Posted by milliardo on 01:30:2002 06:42 PM: Hello, Everyone: I am now writing a fan fiction of Marvel VS Capcom 2... and I have read this thread... and I guess I still have lots to learn... I guess I will have to ask several questions before I actually start my fiction... (I don't want the characters in Marvel VS Capcom 2 far from their original personalities and characteristics...) As I read the first two to three pages of this thread, I can conclude a thing: CAPCOM USA totally screw the translation and plots up!! Anyways... I have some questions to ask: In some Chinese comic book "Street Fighter III New Generation", Ryu and Ken have their own transformation... Ryu to "Evil Ryu" (Specifically, the "Killing Ryu") and Ken to "Superior Ken". Both of them will have a Chinese word appearing on their back... One is "Destroy", another one is "Hegemony"... As I checked this thread... I guess there isn't even a thing about "Superior Ken"!! So, if you know anything about Ken's transformation, please tell me!! Thanks!! Posted by Clay on 01:30:2002 07:04 PM: Berias: I agree, Urien’s attitude is what makes him interesting to me as well. He makes for a pretty cool villain. quote: Originally posted by Berias Clay The comments about Q/Gouken's daughter vs Sagat were my idea of a joke. I thought since no one knows about Q and Gouken's daughter's very existence is in question it would be funny to suggest that she would kill Sagat as if we knew a lot about her. It turned out to be "Stupid" stupid and not "funny" stupid like I meant it to. I'll resist the temptation to make comments like that from now on. DOH! Sorry about that, guess I’m sort of dense. I couldn’t figure out for the life of me why you had suggested Gouken’s daughter. I must take things way too seriously. Milliardo: Sorry, I don’t know anything about “Superior Ken”. He doesn’t exist in the actual SF Universe (not yet at least). Comics and movies are not part of the video game plot. Since it is a fan-fic though, you can pretty much do whatever you want. -Clay Posted by Clay on 01:30:2002 08:09 PM: I had wanted to get to this yesterday, but I ran out of time. Sorry about the wait, God of Death. quote: Originally posted by God of Death I still will not by that in a fight between Ryu and Sagat that Ryu would have an uphill battle. The lowest I will go is equal. Yes Ryu may still have doubts about his darkside, but then again that is not metioned at all in Street Fighter 3 so I'm going to assume that he is over it. At the same time Sagat may have doubts about losing to Ryu again even though he is at the top of his game. Anyway I have a question for Clay why doea Ryu get all crazy when he uses his arts true form and Gouki doesn't. You may have gave the answer before, but I just want to know. On another note even though I disagree with you I still respect the fact that you go off of facts and theory instead of opinion. Holla back!!!! We’re not really disagreeing about much here. I think that we can both agree that it would be an excellent and hard fought match, regardless of who won. I’m hoping that Ryu has conquered his weaknesses as well, but things like that have a nasty way of popping up when you least expect it. SF3 is encouraging though, it hardly seems to even be an issue. However, I don’t think that Sagat would be worried about losing to Ryu again. He seems to have moved past that. Check his Z3 and updated ST endings to see what I mean. His mindset is a lot more like Ryu’s. Ryu and True Ansatsu-ken This is sort of a complicated subject, but it seems like you kind of have it backwards. True Ansatsu-ken is not evil, just very powerful. The techniques are extremely aggressive and capable of killing the opponent. It’s not that Ryu uses these techniques and then loses control of himself, it’s that Ryu loses control of himself and then uses the killing techniques. Ryu had a fundamental weakness within him. It was the desire to be the best, to win at all costs, Satsui no Hadou. When Ryu was overcome by these emotions, he used True Ansatsu-ken. Under the influence of SnH, Ryu would have a do or die mentality, you win the fight or you die trying. The fight is all; focus on being the stongest, that’s all there is to live for. This would explain why Ryu would use the killing arts. The mental state that SnH Ryu has is the same that Gouki has, which explains why Gouki uses True Ansatsu-ken. So to answer your question, Ryu doesn’t get all “crazy” from Ansatsuken, rather he loses control of his emotions and becomes overly obsessive about fighting, winning, and being the best. That is when he chooses to use True Ansatsu-ken. Gouki has hit the same battle within himself that Ryu hit at one time in his life. But Gouki didn’t question it, he choose the path that makes him the “strongest”, Satsui no Hadou. -Clay PS Even though they both live the same lifestyle and have nearly the same goals, there is a distinct difference between Ryu and Gouki’s philosophy. It can get kind of complicated, but if you want to discuss it, then I’m game. Just ask. Posted by Clay on 01:30:2002 09:37 PM: quote: Originally posted by God of Death Okay I have some questions. First, tell me if I'm wrongthe killing intent is the true art that Gouki was taught. And what Ken and Ryu's teacher was taught. And the Dark Hadou is when you hold back your emotions in and they come out in other ways like the urge to crush all. So here are my questions first is Gouki affected by the Dark Hadou(I don't think he is , but I just wanted to ask). Second when affected by this are you stronger and faster, does it increase a fighters ability? Did it give Ryu the knowledge to do a lethal Shoryuken to Sagat or just gave him extra power? And last, but not leastif it does increase power then Ryu vs Sin Gouki would be one hell of a fight if Ryu used the true arts of his tyle and became possed by the dark hadou!!! That's all and please don't tell me to read the thread because I have thanks. Holla!!!!!! True Ansatsu-ken (the killing arts) was taught to both Gouken and Gouki. Ryu and Ken were taught a less lethal version. Gouken wanted to focus on the Way of a warrior rather than actual physical act of fighting and killing that Gouki focuses on. Satsui no Hadou is sort of a wall that all fighters (or at least most fighters) hit at some point. For Ryu, he had to overcome his emotions and desires to fight and conquer. For Sagat, he had to learn to forget about his pride, hatred, and vengeance. Ken even experiences something like it when he’s worried about keeping up with Ryu. Ken didn’t want Ryu to become a master and prove that he (Ryu) was better than Ken. Ken had to realize that everybody travels their own path and that he should focus on himself and not Ryu. Of all of these, Ryu’s Satsui no Hadou is the most difficult to overcome. For a warrior who is focused on the fight to control his own emotions concerning victory is incredibly difficult. When under the influence of SnH, Ryu becomes a better fighter in the short term and physical aspect. He is going for the kill and uses True Ansatsu-ken so the moves that he uses are more deadly and more powerful. There is no room for error against such a foe. He is also more desperate and is able to tap into what would be considered “hidden potential” more easily. In this sense he is more powerful, and more fearsome. His overall attributes remain the same, but he may find ways (hidden potential) to increase them. That can only be considered an indirect result of SnH, since Ryu could develop and unlock the same abilities without SnH. The path that he chooses would just be much different. Ryu already had the knowledge of the deadly Shoryu-ken, Satsui no Hadou just influenced him to use it. Whether it was taught to him by Gouken or self discovered is unknown. My guess is that it was a combination of both. Regardless of whether Ryu was under the influence of SnH or not, your right, an all out battle between Ryu and Gouki (essentially Shin Gouki because Gouki going all out = Shin Gouki) would be one heckuva fight. It is possible for a person to use the killing arts and not fall prey to Satsui no Hadou. They just have to have total control over themselves and not lose focus. It’s incredibly hard, but wholly possible. I believe that that is what Ryu is working towards. This is why he doesn’t want to give in to Satsui no Hadou. In a fight to the death Ryu might have to use True Ansatsu-ken. I hope he’s ready when that time comes. Ryu isn’t quite ready to push Gouki that far yet. As of SF3, it should be fairly obvious that Gouki is way stronger. I’d really like to see Gouki and Oro face each other as well. The most skilled fighter in all of SF vs. (arguably) the greatest manipulator of ki in all of SF. -Clay Off Topic: The harder path that Ryu has chosen will ultimately make him stronger. To have a clear and balanced mind, a pure spirit, and still be able to wield the most powerful techniques is quite the accomplishment. Things like this are why Ryu has and always will be my favorite. I know I’m a geek, but these sort of things always intrigue me. Posted by Berias on 01:30:2002 10:13 PM: quote: Originally posted by Clay ...an all out battle between Ryu and Gouki ...would be one heckuva fight. . The harder path that Ryu has chosen will ultimately make him stronger. It will be interesting to see if that's what street fighter comes down to (at least one end of it), and even more interesting to see if what Ryu has done makes him stronger than Gouki. Here's to hoping that Capcom does not retcon the storyline and remove both characters. Their duel is one that must happen. On a different note, Does anyone have any evidence that puts the Rival Schools universe definitely outside of the normal SF one? I ask this because I think there is at least as much evidence, if not more, for considering the EX storyline on the same level as Rival Schools (or at least as an "alternate reality"). Before you jump down my throat and say "EX was not made by Capcom, idiot." remember that Arika, the designer of the EX crew, also designed most of the SF 2 cast (Zangief, Chun Li, Guile, etc) if my memory is right. The only connection RS has to SF is Sakura, but I don't know if she even has a story in that game. The EX characters, on the other hand, have a lot of story with the capcom characters. As far as I can tell neither EX or RS contradict the SF storyline in any way. Because of this, I think EX should not be considered bogus like MvC2 or CvSNK but instead like a "what if?". Any other support or evidence against my position is very welcome, especially the verification of the Arika part (I have also heard this somewhere else). It sure would be something to think about, though. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:30:2002 10:43 PM: Erm... stupid question. What's the difference between 'bogus' and 'what-if'? Street Fighter EX... I believe Capcom actually went and officially stated that it wasn't part of the canon, didn't they? I know they have yet to state that Rival Schools and Final Fight Revenge are NOT part of the canon or do not exist within the SF universe, though. Sakura does sorta have a storyline within Rival Schools. She fights against Justice and in her ending comments about how she has a feeling that she never felt before when fighting, and realizes that this feeling is because she was fighting to protect something she cared about (her 'favorite school') instead of fighting just for the sake of the fight. However, this relevation/character development bit isn't referenced or shown AT ALL in Street Fighter Alpha 3, really (fighting to protect Ryu doesn't really count. Sakura would have done that whether she had gone through her character development during Rival Schools or not ) My own personal belief (just my own personal belief) is that RS wasn't meant to be part of the canon but some people at Capcom decided to include Sakura as an easter egg, anyway. This ended up technically making it part of the canon too much for Capcom to object and state it wasn't, but because it wasn't meant to be part of the canon in the first place, Capcom decided not to connect further Street Fighter games to Rival School games or vice versa at all and just forget about it, even though it technically thus did happen within the SF universe (despite how it wasn't meant to). Actually, replace 'wasn't meant to' with 'made by Capcom of USA' and you get my personal belief about Final Fight Revenge's canonity, too. Wow, Arika designed most of the SF2 cast? I actually think I might have heard that somewhere, before, myself, but not sure about that, either. Posted by Berias on 01:30:2002 11:30 PM: "Bogus" means totally fake. Marvel characters have nothing to do with capcom. The idea of Marvel teaming up with Capcom is all good and well for a game but makes no sense story-wise. "What-if" means simply something that is plausible or could have happened. Did you ever play Chrono Trigger, or read Marvel's "Alternate M" storylines? The main reason I thought there would be a connection between EX and SF was Arika. If you could find the exact quote where Capcom says they aren't related in any way, that would be great too. Thanks for clearing up RS. There's a great storyline FAQ at gamefaqs.com. Just finished reading it. Posted by Siegfried on 01:31:2002 12:28 AM: The main designer of SF2 went to SNK and created Art of Fighting and Samurai Shodown anyway, so it isn't like the same guys within Capcom made all games either. Arika is a quite young company, maybe someone from Capcom started it? Posted by Saiki on 01:31:2002 04:00 AM: I personally don't think that SFEX is a part of the canon SF storyline. The main reason is that SFEX was initially gonna be called SF Gaiden. Other than that, I can't think of much. A few storyline things that are different between SF and SFEX but nothing major. Although I doubt, who knows, maybe SFEX is a part of the canon SF story. And about Arika Arika was formed by Akira Nishitani. He was one of the two main guys that worked on SF2. The other is Noritaka Funamizu who still works on Capcom fighters. When Akira Nishitani made Arika, Capcom let him take Ichiro Mihara(worked on Megaman 5+6, SF2 series for the home systems) and Junichi Ohno(the man who created the Vampire series). Those are the main three guys that Capcom lost when Arika was made. Posted by Agent Guile on 01:31:2002 04:37 AM: Hey Saiki, You understand Japanese very well? Posted by Saiki on 01:31:2002 06:44 AM: I am Japanese......part to be precise. Anyways, yeah, I'm fluent in Japanese. Send that audio file to this e-mail addy. saiki_s@hotmail.com But to my knowledge, Guile never had a full name. Guile was his name and Capcom never gave him a last name at all. Although he may have had one in SF2V. But even Balrog had one in SF2V...... Balrog Le.... Fabio something.....can't remember...... Anyways, as soon as I get that file, I'll tell you what Ken was saying. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 01:31:2002 08:05 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki I personally don't think that SFEX is a part of the canon SF storyline. The main reason is that SFEX was initially gonna be called SF Gaiden. Other than that, I can't think of much. A few storyline things that are different between SF and SFEX but nothing major. Although I doubt, who knows, maybe SFEX is a part of the canon SF story. And about Arika Arika was formed by Akira Nishitani. He was one of the two main guys that worked on SF2. The other is Noritaka Funamizu who still works on Capcom fighters. When Akira Nishitani made Arika, Capcom let him take Ichiro Mihara(worked on Megaman 5+6, SF2 series for the home systems) and Junichi Ohno(the man who created the Vampire series). Those are the main three guys that Capcom lost when Arika was made. Oh man, is that why they haven't made more games in the Vampire series? I was hoping it wouldn't come down to that. Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:31:2002 08:51 AM: They didn't directly announce that Street Fighter EX wasn't canon? But I could have sworn that I heard they did ACK! Hooboy. ARGH! Hrm... well, I'll update the FAQ to reflect that but dangit, I'm not going to go around rummaging through all that EX info just to fill up the FAQ a lot for the same reason that I'm not including... erm, Rival Schools! And the fact that it's probably not canon! Yea, that's the ticket! Hooboy.... ...oh what the heck. Doesn't Arika own the rights to all new SF EX characters, anyway? (Which is why Capcom hasn't ever put any SF EX characters in any of their other games like any of the VS games, even as easter egg background characters). I wonder if that would make them not part of the canon by default because Capcom couldn't legally make them part of the canon even if they wanted to. That would explain why Blair Dame and Allen Snider would move on to Arika (developed AND published, this time) game Fighting Layer. Posted by Recall1 on 01:31:2002 11:48 AM: On a different Note is it me or is Hugo in the background of Guys Stage in SFA2. also how do Ken & Karin know of each other (SFA3), is it they met at the US Martial arts comp or have i got my wires completly crossed ? Posted by Bowling Pin on 01:31:2002 12:57 PM: What's up with all this "Capcom stated this directly" and "Capcom stated that this was not canon" speech? Are you telling me that Capcom actually gives a fuck about its games stories to even mention what they are? ... Do they even understand the concept of canon? Posted by TiamatRoar on 01:31:2002 04:16 PM: Tons of Final Fight characters (including Andore, I believe, who could be Hugo, depending on which Andore it is. They all look alike, anyway) are in Guy's background in SFA2. Street Fighter Alpha 2 in general has TONS of Easter Egg background appearances. None of these seem to have any canon storyline affects though, and should probably all just be regarded as easter eggs. I think Capcom understands the concept of canon. Otherwise they wouldn't bother updating their storylines or giving any information to books like All About Capcom. Capcom cares about canon enough to touch up details they've retroactively changed in the past, as shown by SF2 Revival (which apparently wasn't ported over by Crawfish after all. Oops) and possibly Final Fight One (which would fix that anomaly that Guy knows Jessica previously in Final Fight Guy), so... Capcom's biggest problem regarding canon is their tendency to go back and retroactively change established things, though, thus creating a new canon that overrides the old one. This can make things very confusing for a lot of people. If you manage to get ahold of the latest versions, though, there's actually a rather coherent storyline (well, more like coherent storylineS. Street Fighter seems to follow a character based plot instead of a series based plot, unlike KOF). For a storyline which is managed by different people and not just one writer (thus making it rather improv, etc) and with so many 'prequel' type games, I suppose it can be expected that they'd retroactively change some things, but admittingly Capcom is rather sloppy in regards to just how much they have to retroactively change, often... Ken and Karin know each other because they're both from rich prestigious families, I believe. ^^ Posted by Siegfried on 01:31:2002 10:15 PM: Yeah, Ken (Masters Foundation), Karin (??? Zaibatsu) and Robert (Garcia Foundation or as in CvS2: Garcia Concern) probably have a little capitalist club where they sit around and smoke expensive cigars and buy some random third world state. ^_^ I still think that Robert and Karin would be in CvS2 simply because of the name: Millionaire Fighting Posted by Saiki on 01:31:2002 11:59 PM: Agent Guile I got your e-mail. This is what Ken was saying. "It's him. Guile!" Some girl, "Oh him" So Ken wasn't saying anything other than Guile. Posted by Agent Guile on 02:01:2002 04:06 AM: quote: Agent Guile I got your e-mail. This is what Ken was saying. "It's him. Guile!" Some girl, "Oh him" So Ken wasn't saying anything other than Guile. OK Thanks. Posted by Berias on 02:01:2002 08:44 AM: Does anyone here know anything about Darkstalkers? Posted by Grenade Falcon on 02:01:2002 10:04 AM: And more importantly, does anyone know if they'll make anymore Darkstalkers games? Also, why doesn't Capcom just put all of their story elements into their SF games instead of keeping them as official statements for books like "All About Capcom"? They would earn a GREATER deal more respect if they would take the time to implement them into upcoming sequels. I don't see why they shouldn't, now that they're taking a break from 2D fighters for awhile. Posted by Siegfried on 02:01:2002 12:28 PM: Personally I think it would be very silly if Ryu suddenly had a cut scene: "Why did I use Satsui no Hadou when fighting Sagat? Is that why Ken defeated me? Then Bison captured me dammit. Oh well, at least he died when Charlie held him while the base exploded. I sure didn't do much during SF2 though. And how could I lose against Oro? Gotta continue practising..." And besides, Capcom USA would cut it out anyway so it wouldn't do much good. Not to mention that they've established their own little twisted nonsense SF storyline already so they might even edit it to fit their reality. Thus creating even more confusion. Posted by Siegfried on 02:01:2002 03:34 PM: Oh, and I've updated FM with the new FAQ now. I had to make a little addition that Tiamat should add for the next one: Evil Ryu isn't called that in any of the Japanese games - he's just Ryu. Makes sense since he's actually "Surge of Killing Intent Awakened in Ryu" instead of "Surge of Evil Intent Awakened in Ryu". If anything the "black" version should be called Killing Ryu... Posted by TiamatRoar on 02:01:2002 03:43 PM: Really? I thought he was called "Satsui no Ryu" in Japan. Which... um, I think means killing Ryu? Or Intent Ryu? ...I don't know Japanese very well :P Well, that's what I see various Japanese people refer to him as, though dunno if that's what he's called in the games:P There are actually quite a few story elements that did make it to the games sooorta. Ryu defeating Sagat with Satsu no Hadou is shown in Alpha on more than one occassion (Adon's and Evil Ryu's endings) and Dan does say to Blanka that Blanka saved his life long ago. Though there are a couple that aren't shown. Gen vs Akuma is one of them where you're given two endings that contradict yet both happened yet didn't happen all at the same time. The Dolls of course have tons of out of game info but that's mostly because Capcom was lazy (Really, replacing Noembelu with Juli sure confused lots of people... would it have been that hard to at least make art of her and just have T Hawk fight Juli who's like... defending Noembelu or something instead if you're not willing to make her a playable character?). Cammy being a clone is in the game as is Rose being a part of Bison's soul, but most people just have trouble believing that. Guy going missing though is something you can really only get from official statements (or Maki's ending in Capcom vs SNK 2, but that's a noncanon storyline game...), as is how Lee died. Oi vey. Still, I do believe that a lot of the storyline really is in game if you look hard (well, Capcom of USA DID butcher the storyline a lot, too ). The problem is most of it is either really vague or really just plain puzzle piece stupid (it IS possible to deduce how Ken, Sagat, and Sakura fought Bison and Psycho Ryu in Alpha 3, I feel, but it's just so plain RIDICULOUS how to get to that conclusion from analyzing the dialogue that it's stupid. Ditto for Cammy and the rest of the Dolls all rebelling against Bison). A lot of the info might also be in Street Fighter Instruction booklets. Even in the US, the Street Fighter 2 instruction booklet for the SNES game mentions Zangief's rivalry with Haggar. Course, that's another one that's hard to trust since Capcom of USA butchers so much of the storyline thus you can't trust US instruction booklets much. Posted by Clay on 02:01:2002 07:13 PM: Wish I knew more about DS/Vampire series. I'm not much help on that one. Doesn't seem like there's going to be another game though. Saiki seems to know at least a little bit though, he could probably answer some questions. Siegfried: quote: Personally I think it would be very silly if Ryu suddenly had a cut scene: "Why did I use Satsui no Hadou when fighting Sagat? Is that why Ken defeated me? Then Bison captured me dammit. Oh well, at least he died when Charlie held him while the base exploded. I sure didn't do much during SF2 though. And how could I lose against Oro? Gotta continue practising..." Agreed. Remember, this is a fighting game, right? Tiamat: quote: Really? I thought he was called "Satsui no Ryu" in Japan. Which... um, I think means killing Ryu? Or Intent Ryu? ...I don't know Japanese very well :P Well, that's what I see various Japanese people refer to him as, though dunno if that's what he's called in the games:P Satsui no Hadou ni Mezameta Ryu Siegfied's right on the translation. It's just much easier to refer to him as Satsui no Ryu. -Clay Posted by Berias on 02:01:2002 11:05 PM: So no one hows how the series ends? I mean did Jedah win or was he beaten by that fop Demitri? Posted by Saiki on 02:01:2002 11:37 PM: The vs series hasn't ended. I'll write a quick rundown of what happenned. Pre-Vampire There are three main powers in Makai. The Aensland family, the Doma family and the Vestalsh(not sure of spelling). The leader of the Aensland family Berior is the strongest but isn't interested in claiming the throne to the Makai. So Ozomu of the Doma family claims the throne(the guy in Zabel/Lord Raptors ending). 300 years before V - Morrigan is born but her powers are too strong so Berior splits her powers into three. One stayed in Morrigan, one is Lilith and the other he kept inside his body. 100 years before V - Demitri challenges Berior and is defeated and is cast away into the human world. Jedah tries to challenge Berior but consumes too much energy from the human world that his body can't handle and he dies. Vampire(Darkstalkers 1) and Vampire Hunter(Nightwarriors)- they're the same game story-wise. The Darkstalkers feel a strong energy coming from space to earth. Pyron comes down to earth but is defeated by Demitri. Berior dies, making Morrigan the heir to the Aensland family. Vampire Savior - Jedah Doma is ressurected and quickly kills of Ozomu. He senses that the Makai is slowly fading away. He creates the Majigen so that all worthy souls can become one with the "Shintai" to save the Makai. He calls the darkstalkers into the Majigen. - Morrigan and Lilith find each other and fuse into one. - Jedah realises that before the Makai and Shintai can take their rightful form, the ruler of the human world must be killed. This ruler of the human world is Anita. That was a real quick summary and doesn't contain alot of info. But anyways, the story of Vampire series is still continued and a sequel is needed badly. Posted by Siegfried on 02:02:2002 02:56 AM: Argh, too many names... But I recognize some of them from the anime series. Is that (at least a little) canon? Posted by Siegfried on 02:02:2002 03:13 AM: Cool. His name really IS Jedah Doma. I've never heard that before but I checked with AAC. Something new every day in this book. Aaah, if I could only read it fluently... Best 2000 yen I ever spent. Posted by Ultima on 02:02:2002 03:57 AM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried Cool. His name really IS Jedah Doma. I've never heard that before but I checked with AAC. Something new every day in this book. Aaah, if I could only read it fluently... No? Even I knew about Jedah Doma quite a long time ago. Oddly enough, I think the GameFan "strategy" (I use the term loosely) guide for Saturn VS mentioned quite a bit of VS's real story, like Morrigan's father splitting Morrigan's power at her birth, with one part forming Lilith. All previous sources I've heard on this said Morrigan's father had split her power into two though, with one part remaining in Morrigan, and the other becomeing Lilith. This is the first I've heard about her father retaining another portion. Also, I've heard Morrigan's father's name translated as Belial, not Berior. Close enough I guess. I didn't know Jedah killed Ozom upon his ressurection. There's no mention of that anywhere in VS, AFAIK. Waittaminute: I know about the Doma and the Aensland houses, but I could have sworn Demitri's house was the third power in Makai. I could be remembering that wrongly though. Cause if it's not Demitri, then I have no idea who the third power is. I don't know who this "Vestalsh[?]" group is. All I know is that Demitri's been feuding with Morrigan's house for a hella long time... Speaking of Morrigan, if there is any DS character who can reasonably fit into an SF game (storywise), it would be her. It has been mentioned that she is frivolous and likes to make occasional jaunts to the human world, plus she likes to fight. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch that she joined a future WW tournament on such a jaunt. She's certainly no weirder a character than the freaks in SF3. What would be more interesting to me, is who would defeat her? I personally think that the DS characters are some of the most powerful beings in all of the Capcom (my list is Pyron, Jedah, Demitri and Morrigan - in that order). I think that even against an easy-going Morrigan, it would take nothing less than tier 2 guys (from Saiki's post earlier in this thread back on page 30) to even scratch her. I think she would more than put up a fight against the tier 1 guys as well, if not outright beat them. Posted by Berias on 02:02:2002 05:10 AM: Seems like Jedah was born in 4045 BC. He died in 1890 AD. This comes from dashtaisen.com, however accurate that is. How could the streetfighters stand up to these freaks? Belial is probably acceptable for Berior. Belial is a name the Bible gives to the devil a few times. It means "worthless". There's a vampire saviour 2 but it never hit the US. I think it's the latest one. Posted by Clay on 02:02:2002 07:53 AM: So how strong is Pyron? He seems like he could be godly, but he was defeated by Demitri (Demitri?!?). I can't seem to get a good idea of what his true ability/potential is. How exactly did Demitri defeat him? Was it on a one on one basis, or were there foriegn factors that changed the outcome? Any info is appreciated. I agree with Ultima that the DS characters seem to stronger than most other Capcom characters. However, with the rate that some of the SF'ers are improving, a few of them may be able to at least contend with them. This could open up the opportunity for some possible future interaction. That is, assuming that they do take place in the same universe. SF3 seems to have taken a few steps towards bridging the gap between the two, so who knows what could happen in the future? It could be really cool to tie them together (even if it were in limited doses). -Clay Posted by Azrael-sama on 02:02:2002 08:46 AM: Street Fighter Vs Darkstalkers? lol, it actually does sound like a good idea. I was kind of surprised Capcom didn't explore it back when they first started making the Vs games. If Capcom did lose the Marvel license, maybe that's something for them to consider making...unless...God forbid...they come up with Capcom Vs DC. Posted by Berias on 02:02:2002 08:17 PM: quote: Originally posted by Clay So how strong is Pyron? He seems like he could be godly, but he was defeated by Demitri (Demitri?!?). I can't seem to get a good idea of what his true ability/potential is. How exactly did Demitri defeat him? Was it on a one on one basis, or were there foriegn factors that changed the outcome? Any info is appreciated. Pyron eats stars to refill himself, and flies around in space. I think he has conquered planets, too. I am pretty sure it was a one on one fight that saw Pyron loose. quote: Originally posted by Clay I agree with Ultima that the DS characters seem to stronger than most other Capcom characters. However, with the rate that some of the SF'ers are improving, a few of them may be able to at least contend with them. This could open up the opportunity for some possible future interaction. That is, assuming that they do take place in the same universe. SF3 seems to have taken a few steps towards bridging the gap between the two, so who knows what could happen in the future? ... -Clay I don't think the strongest streetfighters would matter much to the stronger darkstalkers. Think about it. The Shungokusatsu would probably have no effect on Zabel, Q-Bee, Lilith, Morrigan, Jedah, or Demitri. They're all from Hell. Most of them can fly or can come back to life if they die. The streetfighters are all humans. Probably none of them are as dangerous as Anita. Posted by Saiki on 02:02:2002 10:02 PM: The Vestalsh family is the third power in the Makai. The three powers had a mutual balance of power established in the Makai. But around 1000000 years ago, The Vestalsh families leader and heir to the throne died. This caused the balance of power to be disrupted. This is when Jedah engaged war on the Aensland family. Demitri took this war as an opportunity to try to kill Belial but fails. Oh, and here's a rundown of who's the strongest people in Vampire. 1) Anita, Shintai/the fetus 2) Jedah, Morrigan(if she gets her third part back) 3) Morrigan(at her current state fused with Lilith) 4) Demitri 5) Donovan, Pyron Posted by Siegfried on 02:03:2002 02:38 AM: One million years? Is Jedah that old? And Belial? Demitri and Morrigan are just kids compared to them. Demitri is 500 years and Morrigan a little above 300... Posted by Clay on 02:03:2002 05:51 AM: quote: Originally posted by Berias I don't think the strongest streetfighters would matter much to the stronger darkstalkers. Think about it. The Shungokusatsu would probably have no effect on Zabel, Q-Bee, Lilith, Morrigan, Jedah, or Demitri. They're all from Hell. Most of them can fly or can come back to life if they die. The streetfighters are all humans. Probably none of them are as dangerous as Anita. Yeah, I know what you're saying, but even in limited doses (a cameo or two, a fight here or there), it still might be kind of cool. Keep in mind that Gouki continues to create new techniques, some of them may be far more useful against the DS characters than the Shun Goku Satsu. Also, apparently even the DS'ers pale in comparison to Anita. Oh, and I'm just argueing for the sake of argueing. I don't really care too much if there were a crossover or not. It's just a scenario that I haven't really played out before. Thanks Saiki for the tiering. It seems kind of funny to see a star consuming, planet conquering energy-being like Pyron so low on the list, but I guess that he's just plain outclassed. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 02:03:2002 06:12 AM: Darkstalkers characters crossing over to the SF series would be kinda cool. If Morrigan sounds too dominating to the SF cast, I think another good choice would be Felicia. That is, if Capcom of Japan decides to make that US ending official, then it would make more sense. Anyhow, Felicia isn't all that powerful to begin with, and she doesn't have a dark side to even be considered a Darkstalker. She might seem out of place being a catwoman and all, but she's a celebrity now, so who's gonna care about her appearance? I could imagine her being on par with a SF character, especially Blanka if they ever decide to being him back. Alright then, got another question. Does Makoto really have some sort of rivalry with Ibuki? If so, what's it about? Posted by Ultima on 02:03:2002 06:42 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki The Vestalsh family is the third power in the Makai. The three powers had a mutual balance of power established in the Makai. But around 1000000 years ago, The Vestalsh families leader and heir to the throne died. This caused the balance of power to be disrupted. This is when Jedah engaged war on the Aensland family. Demitri took this war as an opportunity to try to kill Belial but fails. Oh, and here's a rundown of who's the strongest people in Vampire. 1) Anita, Shintai/the fetus 2) Jedah, Morrigan(if she gets her third part back) 3) Morrigan(at her current state fused with Lilith) 4) Demitri 5) Donovan, Pyron 10000000 years ago? Jedah and crew are that old? Something doesn't seem right there. I'd sooner believe the 4045 BC figure. I also find it extremely difficult to believe that a character who can consume stars to be so low on that list. He's a sentient star, is he not? I think Pyron suffers from having to keep most of his power in check, lest he annihilate the whole planet. Under those conditions 9and only those conditions), he can be beaten. Kinda like Raiden in MK has to assume mortal form when he competes in the tournament, otherwise it's a no contest. Morrigan's stronger than Demitri? I guess that's due to her regaining her power when she combined with Lilith. And yeah, if there's a 3rd portion, I can see her matching Jedah's level. Smells very much like Ryoko from the Tenchi anime, who becomes godlike when she has all 3 of her jewels. However, Jedah can ressurect himself (or was he ressurected by someone else?), and can create life from nothing. Can MOrrigan ultimately reach that level? Anyway, if Morrigan is that strong now, then she's too strong for even the tier 1 SF guys. Oh well, it's not always raw strength that wins, so it's possible that one of the tier 1 or tier 2 guys could defeat her if she underestimated her competition. To Saiki: To those birthdates for the DS characters listed for the original Dark Stalkers (Us version) carry any meaning still, or have they been retconned? For a war that's supposedly been going on 1000000 years (I still don't trust that figure), I find it rather odd that nothing of note has happened except in the last 500 or so. Also, if Belial died, what happened to the portion of MOrrigan's power tha he contained? I hope it doesn't spawn yet another MOrrigan clone in any future DS game (assuming there will ever be any). I liked Lilith a lot, but two was already pushing it. Posted by Berias on 02:03:2002 08:02 AM: quote: Originally posted by Ultima I also find it extremely difficult to believe that a character who can consume stars to be so low on that list. He's a sentient star, is he not? I think Pyron suffers from having to keep most of his power in check, lest he annihilate the whole planet. Under those conditions 9and only those conditions), he can be beaten. Not necessarily. These hell guys aren't the brown Imps from DOOM or anything like that. If pyron lost because he was keeping his powers in check then he deserved to die. quote: Originally posted by Ultima Morrigan's stronger than Demitri? I guess that's due to her regaining her power when she combined with Lilith. And yeah, if there's a 3rd portion, I can see her matching Jedah's level. .... However, Jedah can ressurect himself (or was he ressurected by someone else?), and can create life from nothing. Can MOrrigan ultimately reach that level? Jedah fights by squirting his own blood at you. Morrigan will never be that cool. Accoring to one of the endings, pieces of himself that were scattered across the dark world merged together, so I guess he raised himself. quote: Originally posted by Ultima Anyway, if Morrigan is that strong now, then she's too strong for even the tier 1 SF guys. Oh well, it's not always raw strength that wins, so it's possible that one of the tier 1 or tier 2 guys could defeat her if she underestimated her competition. Probably she is. I don't think Pyron would have trouble with the whole 1 tier SFers at once. Posted by TiamatRoar on 02:04:2002 04:34 AM: Random Crawfish Interactive has a message board. There, the development assistant Dave Murphy is answering questions people are asking about SFA3 Advance. I myself am asking if there are any storyline changes or additional storylines, of course. But for now, here's a small tidbit. Dave Murphy: Yeah I would have liked to see Kyosuke in too, I don’t know why he wasn’t included we were just asked by Capcom to include Eagle, Maki and Yun. It’s a good job he wasn’t tho as we don’t have the space for him This shows that Capcom was the one that decided that Yun, Maki, and Eagle should be included in SFA3 Advance and they did so without any specs on the space limitations. It also thus hints that for whatever reason Kyosuke was not included, space limitations probably wasn't one of them (since it was Capcom that made the decision to include the new characters, not Crawfish). Was Capcom really just being considerate and knowing that space and technological considerations would prevent Kyosuke from being doable, or...? I don't think it was technological considerations though because Murphy also remarked about how Yun, Maki, and Eagle themselves needed many changes to fit into SFA3 Advance, anyways... Posted by Siegfried on 02:04:2002 10:44 AM: About Darkstalkers... Umgogo, one of my fighting pals at GameFAQs, just presented the storyline of practically every Darkstalker in a thread at Fighting Games. Shouldn't we invite him here to discuss? Also, there should be a second thread about Darkstalkers. Anyone care to come up with a nice name for it? Posted by Grenade Falcon on 02:04:2002 11:41 AM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried About Darkstalkers... Umgogo, one of my fighting pals at GameFAQs, just presented the storyline of practically every Darkstalker in a thread at Fighting Games. Shouldn't we invite him here to discuss? Also, there should be a second thread about Darkstalkers. Anyone care to come up with a nice name for it? Yeah, how 'bout.... The Night Warrior Tales: Storylines of DS (Q & A thread)? That sounds like a good idea. Does Umgogo have an account here? Posted by Dasrik on 02:04:2002 01:28 PM: Nice thread. Did anyone ever post the SNK artwork for CvS2? I've been itching to see that. Posted by Clay on 02:04:2002 08:13 PM: Dasrik: Glad you like it. Anyway, Saiki posted both the Capcom and SNK art for CvS2 earlier in the thread (page 13). Unfortunately, it was deleted right away. Az re-posted some of the art on the next page, but he only had the Capcom portion. I never got to see most of the Snk work either so I'm with ya' on that one. Maybe if were lucky, Saiki could try and get us a link to the Snk artwork. If anybody else has any ideas, feel free to help out. Thanks in advance. Posted by Mmeeva on 02:04:2002 08:34 PM: This site has them http://shingotink.tripod.com/ Posted by FistsofFury on 02:04:2002 09:27 PM: Wow, this thread is huge....should we make another one?? Posted by Clay on 02:04:2002 09:36 PM: quote: Originally posted by Mmeeva This site has them http://shingotink.tripod.com/ Hey, thanks a lot for the link. That's a great collection. Thanks to Saiki as well for pictures (since he was given credit for them). Hey FoF, why start another thread? We already have a ton of info here, it's good for other people who don't always participate. Just curious. -Clay Posted by Psycho Power J on 02:04:2002 09:54 PM: Did anyone start the Darkstalkers thread yet? I've found this very interesting webpage that is suppose to be the translated version of the official storyline of the Vampire Series from CAP Jap. http://www.yuzuriha.sakura.ne.jp/~akikan/honyaku1.html I don't know how accurate it is. Could someone check it out? Posted by Siegfried on 02:04:2002 11:35 PM: I'm just afraid that this thread will max out at 1000 posts or so. Also, continuing the SF discussion will just cause mixups with any DS info. As for that page, it seems official since they refer to All About Vampire Saviour. I assume that one has more background information than All About Capcom, and not just the characters? But the translation is horrible Engrish, I can hardly decypher it. Posted by Siegfried on 02:04:2002 11:52 PM: Oh my.... Darkstalkers just kills Street Fighter in background story. Or is there a similar work like this, but for the SF games? Reading Bishamon's story, even in Engrish, is like watching a movie. Amazing. Posted by Azrael-sama on 02:05:2002 12:53 AM: Yeah, I was wondering about the SNK art myself, but then I had found that site a month or two ago when I was browing Tagmonkey. For the most part, I like Capcom's art better than SNK, but there are some SNK pieces I like better than the Cap equivalent. Rolento, for instance. I love Capcom Morrigan though, I think it's her best rendition yet. Posted by Clay on 02:05:2002 05:30 AM: It was good to finally see all of the Snk art together like that. For one reason or another I really like Snk's Chunli, it just seems to suit her well. I have to agree with Az, in that, for the most part I do prefer the Capcom art. But I can think of at least a few characters where the Snk drawings were better. Chalk it up to personal preference, because their is a fairly big difference in style between the two. A lot of the Snk drawings make the characters look like their pausing for a portrait, while the Capcom offerings seem to catch them mid-motion; there's more of a sence of action to them. It doesn't really matter in the end though, because Capcom's rendition of Haohmaru owns everything else. By far, my favorite. God, I love that one. -Clay Posted by Azrael-sama on 02:05:2002 05:51 AM: quote: Originally posted by Clay It doesn't really matter in the end though, because Capcom's rendition of Haohmaru owns everything else. By far, my favorite. God, I love that one. lol, mine would have to be Satsui no Hadou Ryu. The headband across the face is a nice touch. My other favorites would have to be Capcom Chun-Li (yeow), Hibiki, Morrigan (double yeow), Vice, Gouki, and SNK Iori, Guile, Rolento, and Sakura. As for screw-ups...I'd have to say Capcom Benimaru (I know he's eccentric, but he looks waaaaay too much like a girl), Guile, Ken (bad pose), Rock (poor Rock gets the "scared little boy" look Kyo had in CvS1), Sakura (bad pose), Yamazaki (really bad pose) and Gief. SNK side - Blanka, Maki, Morrigan, and Ryo just looks funny to me. Posted by Clay on 02:05:2002 09:47 AM: quote: Originally posted by Azrael-sama lol, mine would have to be Satsui no Hadou Ryu. The headband across the face is a nice touch. My other favorites would have to be Capcom Chun-Li (yeow), Hibiki, Morrigan (double yeow), Vice, Gouki, and SNK Iori, Guile, Rolento, and Sakura. As for screw-ups...I'd have to say Capcom Benimaru (I know he's eccentric, but he looks waaaaay too much like a girl), Guile, Ken (bad pose), Rock (poor Rock gets the "scared little boy" look Kyo had in CvS1), Sakura (bad pose), Yamazaki (really bad pose) and Gief. SNK side - Blanka, Maki, Morrigan, and Ryo just looks funny to me. Agreed. I was thinking that Capcom's SnH Ryu was my second favorite. The pose, eyes, and of course, headband all have a nice affect. I didn't think that there was anything wrong with Capcom's Ken portrait, not one of my favorites, but it seemed alright. On the other hand, I didn't like any of Snk's offerings for most of the Ansatsu-ken practitioners. Gouki, Ryu, and Ken just look awkward, while SnH Ryu is awful. Didn't really like Orochi Gouki either, that stupid look on his face just bothers me. Your dead on with Capcom's Benimaru though. If you zoom in on the face, there are no clues whatsoever that he might be a boy. Just plain scary. Capcom's Balrog suffers from a similar disorder, he looks a little feminine as well, and Yun still has that goofy look on his face. Snk's Blanka and G. Rugal are not too flattering either. Still love that Hao (Capcom's) though, too good. SnH Ryu (Capcom) is also a pretty strong contender. -Clay PS As good as Capcom's rendition of Morrigan is (and it is very nice), I find their Mai to be a little more than distracting. Posted by Psycho Power J on 02:05:2002 02:25 PM: I found out something about the "All About ______" books. Dash Taisen described a bit about the All About series in this: http://www.dashtaisen.com/bkallmenu.html Posted by Siegfried on 02:05:2002 03:16 PM: Cool. I wonder how hard it would be to aquire all those books. I'd like to have the Vampire books, SF3:The Characters and Warzard... Posted by Ukyo Tachibana on 02:05:2002 06:07 PM: I have a few questions concerning Satsui No Hadou Ryu(Evil Ryu): 1) In SFA3 Evil Ryu's ending, a symbol of his own appears on his back, just like Akuma. I know Akuma's symbol is "Ten", meaning Heaven(I think). What is Evil Ryu's symbol, and what does it stand for? 2) Does anyone have any clear pics of the Evil Ryu symbol that I just spoke of? I guess anything will do, especially if you have that image from the SFA3 Evil Ryu ending. I think it looks really cool, and I'd love to use it for my own creative designs. Thanx. Posted by Siegfried on 02:05:2002 06:17 PM: The kanji is "metsu" which means "destroy". You can see the picture from Evil Ryu's ending at the bottom of this page: http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/psx/b/sfa3eryu.htm Posted by FistsofFury on 02:05:2002 10:01 PM: I want those All About Samurai Sprits books Posted by Clay on 02:06:2002 09:11 PM: The Metsu symbol also appears above Shin Gouki in SFZ2 in his pre-fight intro. I believe that you can see it again in Z3 (Shin Gouki) in either his taunt or his intro. Can't remember which. FoF: I feel your pain. I love the Shodown series. Thanks again PPJ, for another really nice link. GF: Yeah, Makoto and Ibuki do have a little rivalry between them. I think that it's just because they're two Japanese school girls with similar interests. They are in direct competition with each other. They also seem to have opposite personalities. Ibuki seems to be very outgoing and popular, where as Makoto is much more reserved. I wonder if there is more background to this? -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 02:06:2002 10:16 PM: Yea, is Makoto and Ibuki's special intro just a special intro, or like, is there some actual storyline behind it? I've heard conflicting reports about that. Course, I also wonder if Yun and/or Yang is supposed to know Chun-Li, since I think there was a special intro there, too. Both learned some things from Gen, though I doubt at the same time... Posted by Bowling Pin on 02:07:2002 01:35 AM: SFA3 ending question. I assume that Ryu was the one who beat Bison...but who else was there? In Sakura's ending, she was with Ryu, in Sagat's, he was Ryu, and in Ryu's ending, he was inspired by the supposed memories of his friends and opponents (including Sagat, Sakura, Rose, Chun Li, and Ken). So, canonically, who was present at the final battle? In my newly Sagat fanboy mind, I prefer to believe that Sagat, Sakura, and Ken were physically able to root Ryu on...eh. Posted by Agent Guile on 02:07:2002 01:49 AM: By the way Tiamat, after you made that SF plot faq, how many emails did you get that go something like this: "Tiamat, Nope, you're misinformed. This is what happened......blah blah blah." Posted by Clay on 02:07:2002 03:45 AM: quote: Originally posted by Bowling Pin SFA3 ending question. I assume that Ryu was the one who beat Bison...but who else was there? In Sakura's ending, she was with Ryu, in Sagat's, he was Ryu, and in Ryu's ending, he was inspired by the supposed memories of his friends and opponents (including Sagat, Sakura, Rose, Chun Li, and Ken). So, canonically, who was present at the final battle? In my newly Sagat fanboy mind, I prefer to believe that Sagat, Sakura, and Ken were physically able to root Ryu on...eh. Yeah, you’ve got the gist of it. Sagat came across Ryu when Vega had control of him. Vega then sent Ryu out to get rid of Sagat, “fulfilling” his promise to Sagat by giving him a chance to get “revenge” against Ryu for winning the first tournament. I say this tongue in cheek, because Vega had wanted Ryu to kill Sagat (at this point Sagat served no purpose for Vega because he had already defected from Shadaloo). Meanwhile, Ken and Sakura, who happened to also be on hand, occupied Vega’s time while Sagat and Ryu fought. Sagat defeated Ryu, but Vega then came over to pump him full of more Psycho Power (either to supercharge him, or take control of his body, can’t say for sure). At this time, Ryu breaks free of Vega’s control (insert scene where he thinks of all of his friends, rivals, etc…) and turns on Vega. From there on Sagat, Ken, and Sakura are on hand to witness Ryu defeating Vega. Of course, Vega doesn’t die there. He retreats and ends up fighting Rose, his own dolls, and Nash and Guile, before Nash takes him down in the Psycho Drive explosion. I love Sagat’s Z3 ending. Seeing the two on friendly terms is really cool, plus I like how Sagat becomes so excited at the prospect of fighting Ryu again. He finally finds his true spirit. I love how Sagat is motivated to meet Ryu in a match for the ages, not for a title or revenge, but simply in its purist form, to test themselves and see what they are capable of. Even more impressive is Ryu’s resolve to overcome his own weakness. Two of my favorite characters overcoming all odds. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 02:07:2002 03:55 AM: quote: Originally posted by Agent Guile By the way Tiamat, after you made that SF plot faq, how many emails did you get that go something like this: "Tiamat, Nope, you're misinformed. This is what happened......blah blah blah." Surprisingly only one e-mail, I believe. The one which I posted to this thread a while back. ^^ Posted by Clay on 02:12:2002 07:40 PM: Well, this thread has kind of been lying dormant for the past week, so I thought that I would revive it a little bit. If anybody has any topics to bring up, now would be the time. I'll be back tomorrow, so post what you've got tonight (or tomorrow, whatever). If nobody else has anything, then I'll just start a topic tomorrow. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 02:12:2002 08:36 PM: All I have left are really small stupid nitpicky questions, really Most of which I asked throughout this thread but didn't really get any answers (and seeing how small and nitpicky they are, that's really understandable, too). So... um... yea:P Posted by Psycho Power J on 02:12:2002 10:46 PM: Well, I think more stuff about the SF 3 characters will be welcome. Throughout the entire thread, we only got a little information about them. Maybe that's because there is little information about them to begin with. There might be more in the "All About Street Fighter III" Here's a nitpicky question. Have you ever wondered how come Juni has all kinds of unusual abilities? Mach Slide, Air Spiral Arrow, Psycho Shield, Psycho Streak, and Psycho Charge Alpha/Gamma. You'd think there is more about her than what's obvious. When you compare her to Cammy and Juli, she's quite different. She's much closer in ability to M.Bison than the other two. The other dolls, had they've been in the game, might have some unusual abilities, but I don't think so, since Juni and Juli appear to be the most skilled after Cammy if they also fight without weapons. Posted by TiamatRoar on 02:13:2002 01:51 AM: More Street Fighter 3 information would be good. Most of the stuff I have for them at the Plot Guide I'm a bit unsure about. Yun and Yang come to mind. Course, it's true that there isn't much info on them. Capcom got really really lazy with SF3's storyline, I feel. Yea, I've noticed the Juni thing too. It's weird, huh? But I can address some of them. Mach Slide - Actually, all the Dolls have this move. Juli uses it in her win pose with Juni in Dramatic Battle, and she also has it available as an Alpha Counter. And you know the other Dolls all have it because in J&J's battle introduction, the other Dolls use the mach slide to dissappear. Juni however seems to be the one most attuned to it, though, since she can actually do it on commmand in the middle of battle without super bar use. And I dunno if Cammy can do a mach slide. Air Spiral Arrow - Dunno. Seems to just be an air spiral arrow, really Psycho Streak - Well, Cammy had this move in Street Fighter Alpha 2 Gold, I believe. It's really just asking Lord Bison to come in and blast the enemy for you. Nothing really special, I think. Psycho Charge Alpha/Gamma - Juli has a Psycho Charge too, though it raises super bar instead of heals, so dunno if this is really meant to indicate anything. She only needs one charge because in Dramatic battle, you share the same super bar. I never got to see Psycho Gamma in action, myself. For some reason the computer will never du the move Psycho Shield - This is one of the more interesting ones. Dunno why Juni gets this and Juli and Cammy do not have anything remotely like it, and this is one of the biggest pieces of evidence that she's more 'psycho power attuned' than normal, I think. Also, her push block got a special name while the name of Dan's push block move is just "Push Block", I believe. Posted by God of Death on 02:14:2002 03:44 AM: I remeber back when the people were put into tiers Vega was tier two. Here is my question how strong is Vega now? Is he in Rose body or what that's all. Holla!!!!!! Official Member of Team Death Death is Nigh!!!! Posted by Psycho Power J on 02:14:2002 01:47 PM: Well, official statements say that Vega/M.Bison is dead, so he'll never get stronger. But while still alive, Akuma is stronger than him, so he has to be in a lower tier. I've been wondering about Gouken's daughter, whom Ryu and Ken called "Little Miss" I've found a picture of the two versions of her: http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/razielblackheart/LittleMiss.gif Is that what she looks like? Posted by Siegfried on 02:14:2002 04:26 PM: Possibly, but I'd still like to see the original pictures. Isn't there someone out there who can scan them? Posted by gunjack_fever on 02:17:2002 11:55 PM: this is really a good thread Posted by God of Death on 02:18:2002 01:31 PM: Okay I now I may start some debates with this but this just came to me in the shower. If Ryu defeats Vega(japanese name) then who was the one that defeated Sagat in the World Warrior tournament? I know this tournament was never given an official storyline(Even though it would dope if it had been given one!!!) I'm assuming since Ryu and Sagat are still waiting for their fated battle that they did not meet. So who defeated him? If no one can come up with the answer then please give your opinions of who could POSSIBLE have beat Sagat. Remember that Sagat is through with all the rage at this time and at the top of his game. OH and by the way, I'm sure some people will say that Chun Li Defgeated Vega from Uriens comments in Third Strike. I think that she may have brought down the organization but I don't think she defeated Vega. Much like in the Alpha 3 how she had a hand in blowing up Vega's base but didi not defeat him in actually combat. That's all for now. Holla!!!!!!!!!! Offical Member of Team Death -Your death was decided the moment you challenged me!! Posted by Saiki on 02:18:2002 06:44 PM: Wow, it's been a while since I've posted here now. I'd scan those sketches of little miss but I have no scanner. Anyways, those two gif's are fairly close. But the first one with the yellow gi should have longer hair. I guess I made a mistake when I said it looks like Mai's hair. I should've said it looks like Kasumi's hair(KOF99~00, not the AOF3 and KOF96 hair). But I really doubt she'll ever make an appearance considering that Capcom has forgotten she even exists. And about who defeated Sagat in SF2. I don't think anyone did. I persoanlly think that he let the other guy win. And I think that person is Guile. I still think that Guile was the winner of the SF2 tournament. He was the other main character of SF2 and his ending really relies on him beating Vega. Oh yeah, one of the guys reading this thread e-mailed me an interesting scan from a recent magazine. In that magazine, it had the top mosted wanted villians from video games and they were Vega, Heihachi, Wesker, Liquid Snake and Seymour. And in the section for Vega, it had his birthdate listed as March 1991. So this pretty much tells us exactly when he was re-born or got his new body again. Although most of the other sections are pretty much joking around.(Especially the interview with Vega and stuff). But I found that article very helpful for finding out the exact time that Vega was reborn. Posted by Psycho Power J on 02:19:2002 10:53 PM: I think I've got an reason about why Bison would kill off the dolls when they finished their mission. When you play as Juli, Bison will say that Juli's life was shortened by her enhanced metabolism. It kind of similar to what steroid will do to your body after prolonged use. He thought that they are starting to wear out and wants to replace them. Bison probably has data about all the the dolls and will just replace them by kidnapping and brainwashing other girls. Somewhere in the SF universe, there are twelve enhanced girls wandering the world. Everything is strange and unfamiliar to them. They have no recollection of what happened to them. They don't even know that they don't have much time left to live... Of course that's the worst-case scenario. Probably they are reunited with their families or living a normal life with some foster family and are working in a normal job. I could just imagine Enero having a job as singer. It could also be possible that some of dolls would try to figure out what happened to them like Cammy did. Juli could encounter Cammy and recognize her. Or maybe regressed to robot state and tried to attack her again. Catfight, Yeah! J/K It's all conjecture, but I prefer having some explanation about why Bison order the dolls to die instead of just because he's evil and he feels like doing it. Posted by Azrael-sama on 02:20:2002 12:21 AM: It could be that...or maybe he just didn't have any use for them anymore. If you're an evil dictator, you don't just fire your employees, you axe them. The whole dolls storyline is sort of this hidden gold in the Alpha series that was never resolved. Given Capcom's track record, I doubt it ever will be. Pity. Post 900! w00t! Posted by TiamatRoar on 02:20:2002 02:56 AM: Poor Dolls. There's a huge amount of info and a big gaping hole of unresolvedness there on where they ended up. I figured Bison decided to off them because he felt they might become independent like Cammy, though that metabolism thing is a good point. As is the 'no use for them' thing. He gives the metabolism speech to Juli and the no use thing to Juni. Weird... I'm pretty sure they're still alive though. Cammy generally 'fixed' them with the Psycho Drives so they could live, and I'd be surprised if that weren't long term because then, what would be the point of her saving them? Course, I suppose you never know... Posted by Sho 2 on 02:20:2002 09:47 PM: I was wondering if anyone could point me to the pages with info on R. Mika? I going to my first fanfic and I wanted to put Rainbow Mika as the main chracater. Thanks. Posted by goukigirl2002 on 02:21:2002 02:43 AM: quote: Originally posted by FistsofFury I want those All About Samurai Sprits books hey Fisty! you should be so proud of your thread, it has sooo many pages. Posted by Psycho Power J on 02:21:2002 11:10 AM: R.Mika is on page 14. Not much on her though. Posted by mista dj on 02:22:2002 01:35 AM: quote: Also, her push block got a special name while the name of Dan's push block move is just "Push Block", I believe. Hm, I thought it called was "saikyo defense". Oh yeah. http://www.vgmuseum.com/end/psx/b/sfa3ery-05.gif Is that picture from the SF1 tourney or was Sagat E Ryu's midboss? Posted by TiamatRoar on 02:22:2002 08:47 AM: That's from the SF1 tournament, I believe^^ Evil Ryu DOES fight Sagat as a mid-boss, but you can tell from Sagat's dialogue after the battle that something as ruthless as that metsu shoryuken probably didn't happen, since there aren't any 'rage' tones in either Sagat's or Ryu's voice, there, really. Saikyo Defense? Ah, cool! So that's what it was. Still doesn't have that psycho power oomph that a name like Psycho Shield, though Posted by Ultima on 02:23:2002 04:46 AM: quote: Originally posted by Saiki Oh yeah, one of the guys reading this thread e-mailed me an interesting scan from a recent magazine. In that magazine, it had the top mosted wanted villians from video games and they were Vega, Heihachi, Wesker, Liquid Snake and Seymour. And in the section for Vega, it had his birthdate listed as March 1991. So this pretty much tells us exactly when he was re-born or got his new body again. Although most of the other sections are pretty much joking around.(Especially the interview with Vega and stuff). But I found that article very helpful for finding out the exact time that Vega was reborn. Sounds very suspicious to me. March 1991 is the original SF2's release date. I think they might have been joking around. Posted by AHVB on 02:24:2002 05:35 AM: Bump Posted by Berias on 02:26:2002 07:46 AM: Question on Sagat: In SF1 Sagat has this move that looks a lot like the Tiger knee. In fact, most people think it is the tiger knee except it's the only jump attack he ever does, meaning it might be a normal jump kick. It's pretty powerful, doing about 1/3rd of a lifebar (his tiger shot does 2/3rds). In an old capcom SF2 CE guidebook I have it says Sagat learned the Tiger knee in SF2, "...which had not been performed correctly for hundreds of years." So when did he learn it? Posted by God of Death on 02:27:2002 12:34 AM: I have another question. Why does people say that Ryu is not over the Killing Intent. I know that Gouki asks him to use them in 2nd Impact, but that does not mean that he is not over it. Ryu can never get rid of the knowledge he has of the Killing Intent. He can't simpliy choose to forget them, but he can choose whether or not to use it. I really believe that he is over it by Third Strike (or even before this). Please reply and give your opinions. Holla!!!!! Official Member of Team Death You go against us and you die!!!!!! Posted by TiamatRoar on 02:27:2002 02:07 AM: Basically, Ryu is over his huge conflict within himself on whether to use it or not. Theretically, he could theretically choose to submit to it even in the present day, but storyline wise that'd be INCREDIBLY RANDOM since by now he's long since decided that it wasn't worth giving in to just to win. So unless something happened to drastically make Ryu suddenly change his viewpoint on satsu no hadou, he's basically 'over it'. His main conflict within himself on whether to use it or not and the closest he came to using it (to the point where he actually did use it for a brief moment) was from Street Fighter 1 to Street Fighter Alpha 3. After that, Ryu gave up on it but he could come back to it if he really wanted to. THe question being, by now, since he's long since decided that it wasn't worth it, why would he want to? You can see just how much Ryu is over the satsu no hadou in how when Akuma talks to him about it in SF3 Second Impact, Ryu immediately says "Satsu no Hadou is not the way, Akuma." without a second thought. Posted by Ultima on 02:27:2002 04:30 AM: quote: Originally posted by Berias Question on Sagat: In SF1 Sagat has this move that looks a lot like the Tiger knee. In fact, most people think it is the tiger knee except it's the only jump attack he ever does, meaning it might be a normal jump kick. It's pretty powerful, doing about 1/3rd of a lifebar (his tiger shot does 2/3rds). In an old capcom SF2 CE guidebook I have it says Sagat learned the Tiger knee in SF2, "...which had not been performed correctly for hundreds of years." So when did he learn it? I think he learned after SF1 (could be pre-Alpha or not). The old jumping knee was just that - a jumping knee (what would be Sagat's jumping WK in World Warrior onwards). Tiger Knee is a ground-based move that ends in the air (basically a rising knee based move) that hits twice. Posted by Berias on 02:27:2002 07:36 AM: So does the Sf1 knee attack, that's what im talking about. He doesn't jump; he just hops straight at you off the ground. I don't think it hits twice in all games, but it doesn't matter since Ryu's Shoryuken is not supposed to be unblockable, or hit 3 times, or be an instant KO, but it is all of these things in SF1. Posted by sano on 03:01:2002 03:43 PM: What's up, guys! I've been reading these posts for a long time, but could never join the chat 'cuz my old boss wouldn't allow it. Now that she's retiring, anything goes! I've contacted a few of you guys seperately using the name Collado. I'm that mystery guy that sent those "Vega's Most Wanted" images that Saiki was talking about in his last post. Anyway, here's my first question. There's a new Anime coming soon called Metropolis that's based on an old Manga by Osamu Tezuka that predates his Astro Boy (Meaning it's older then Anime.) In it, there is a character that looks EXACTLY LIKE Q named Pero! This robot has the same Fedora, same Trenchcoat, same gloves and same mask. The only exception is that there are two red lines going threw the eyes of the mask. Could he be the inspiration for Q, or did he just inspire the character that inspired Q? As a long time reader of this thread, I'd like to thank all you guys for all your hardwork. Later - Sano. Posted by pirate360 on 03:01:2002 08:00 PM: I have a question I have a question- if Guile seems to be the most logical choice for beating M.Bison, how would he have done it if Akuma killed him before? Thus, making Guile's ending impossible, and making Chun-Li the most likely winner of the tournament. Also, who thinks that Q is Remy's father? I there is official art with him without a mask, and him being an old guy, wouldn't that seem logical? Maybe he is fighting and trying to meet Remy. He is hiding because he did something so shameful. Posted by God of Death on 03:01:2002 09:32 PM: I just want to say now that I don't think that Guile or Chun Li won the Street Fighter 2 tournament. I just don't believe that they have the skill to win. The only way that they could have won if is if Ryu and Ken stepped out of the tournament. This is just my personal opinion though. It would really help if Capcom of Japan gave a strict history of what happened. By the way I plan on trying to write a fanfiction on what happened during this tournament. Any advice would be welcome. Holla!!!!! Official Member of Team Death If you go against us you die!!!!!!! Posted by Berias on 03:02:2002 12:48 AM: Re: I have a question quote: Originally posted by pirate360 I have a question- if Guile seems to be the most logical choice for beating M.Bison, how would he have done it if Akuma killed him before? Thus, making Guile's ending impossible,... It's unknown if Guile won. Gouki could have destroyed Vega after Guile left. quote: Originally posted by pirate360 and making Chun-Li the most likely winner of the tournament. Actually, one of the least likely. She is much weaker than Vega. If Guile did not win, it was probably Ryu. quote: Originally posted by pirate360 Also, who thinks that Q is Remy's father? No one. It might have something to do with the fact that the characters have nothing in common, their moves, personalities, and stories are all different. Q isn't even human. Try beating 3rd strike with each of them. They have nothing in common. quote: Originally posted by pirate360 I there is official art with him without a mask, and him being an old guy, wouldn't that seem logical? No one knows his age. The only thing known about him is that he witnessed the fall of shadaloo and that he is probably among the stronger street fighters. You're looking at Q's face. There is no mask. Try shocking him with Urien or Necro to see. quote: Originally posted by pirate360 Maybe he is fighting and trying to meet Remy. He is hiding because he did something so shameful. There is less evidence to support this than there is that Capcom resurrected Caesar to do the voices and draw the characters for 3rd strike. Q isn't necessarily hiding from anyone. He's probably embarrassed to be in the same game as ChunLi, the Standing Fierce Slut. Posted by TiamatRoar on 03:02:2002 12:52 AM: I believe Saiki and All About Capcom (Thus Capcom itself) once stated that Q 'had an unknown connection to Remy'. That's probably where the conjecture about Q being Remy's father thing comes from, though in the end that doesn't solidify Q being Remy's father, of course (though it's the only missing connection I can think of right now). As for the rest, though, I believe that's just fancanon about Q. As for Akuma killing Bison, there's the possibility that he did it AFTER whomever fought Bison and won the SF2 tournament won it, though no one knows for sure and Capcom ain't talking Posted by Grenade Falcon on 03:02:2002 07:33 AM: Okay, here's another big question......... WHY did Akuma kill Bison? Posted by Agent Guile on 03:02:2002 11:17 AM: It's very possible that Guile won the SF2 tournament. Although I don't believe that he won by beating Bison. He may have won by default because Bison was killed by Akuma. I and don't buy that he-isn't-tough-enough-against-Bison-therefore-he-couldn't possibly-have-won analogy. Alex, who isn't as close to Guile in skills won Street Fighter 3. He won because Ryu was defeated by Oro (I think) and Oro didn't appear in his bout with him. Alex and Guile have one thing in common....they're the main character (officially) in the SF game they appear in (SF3 and SF2 respectively). I mean, if Capcom wanted Ryu to win SF2, how come they never said it? They stated who won SF1 and SF3, but never SF2. That's because Ryu didn't make it in the final stage (withdrawal is a very possible answer) and Capcom can't think of a good story to back it up. Posted by Agent Guile on 03:02:2002 11:23 AM: quote: Originally posted by Grenade Falcon Okay, here's another big question......... WHY did Akuma kill Bison? PERFECT QUESTION Posted by God of Death on 03:02:2002 05:30 PM: I know I'm going to sound like a Guile hater, but I still don't think Guile has the skill to win. You are right about the Alex thing I think that really sucks. I would really like to know how Alex exactly beat Gill. If the only people in his power level are Gouki and Oro. Anyway, They have not stated that anyone has one the Tournament and why do people say that he is the main character. I don't even think Street Fighter 2 had a main charcater and by the way during the intro in Super Street Fighter 2 and I think Super Turbo they show Ryu shooting a hadoken so I think he would be more of a main charcater to that one. But, you never know. By the way where is Clay. He used to be the one who answered questions like this. Also about the Gouki thing I believe that it has been stated that he killed Vega(M.Bison) after the tournament ended. Anyway holla back at me. Holla!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Official Member of Team Death -You go against us you die!!!!! Simple as that. Posted by Berias on 03:02:2002 06:36 PM: quote: Originally posted by Agent Guile [color=tan] Alex, who isn't as close to Guile in skills won Street Fighter 3. He won because Ryu was defeated by Oro (I think) and Oro didn't appear in his bout with him. Not necessarily. Alex isn't weak. Gill thinks he is pretty powerful. He still probably threw the match. quote: Originally posted by Agent Guile I mean, if Capcom wanted Ryu to win SF2, how come they never said it? They stated who won SF1 and SF3, but never SF2. Capcom doesn't say a lot of stuff. As far as Gouki killing Vega, there are two possible scenarios. Suppose Guile is on the track to winning and is at the fight with Vega. A: Gouki kills Vega before the round starts (just like SSF2T), and then kills Guile. Then if Guile can't win the tournament (since he's dead) the next person would be winner by default (possibly Ryu). This does not explain who beat Sagat since he would probably be stronger than Vega if Tiamat is right about Vega being weaker in SF2 than in A3. B: Guile beats Vega and the tournament is over. Hours(?) later, Gouki smashes the pathetic Vega, because 1: He doesn't like him or shadoloo for whatever reason 2: Vega claims to be number 1, which would make him a target for Gouki. I like the SSF2T scenario the best, but that means the challenger of Vega died. That is probable since Capcom was done with the entire SF2 cast and was ready to start over for SF3. Posted by Azrael-sama on 03:02:2002 07:07 PM: I always thought that Gouki killed Vega because he was a nuisance. Vega called for the SF2 tournament to get revenge on Ryu, Ken, Chun, and Sagat. He probably still wanted a shot at Ryu's body as well. By this time, Ryu has decided not to use true Ansatsuken, and Gouki is waiting for his skills to advance to the point where he'd be a challenge. Gouki probably figured that if Vega lived, he'd continue to interfear with Ryu's progress, and just be a general nuisance. So he killed him. That's my take on it anyway. Posted by Ultima on 03:03:2002 02:51 AM: From Agent Guile: > [B]It's very possible that Guile won the SF2 tournament. I agree, though not for the same reasons you claim. > Although I don't believe that he won by beating Bison. He may have won by default because Bison was killed by Akuma. If Guile won the tournament, then it's far more likely that Akuma killed Bison after Guile beat him since, as has been mentioned, Guile's ending centers so much on him beating Bison. > Alex, who isn't as close to Guile in skills won Street Fighter 3. He won because Ryu was defeated by Oro (I think) and Oro didn't appear in his bout with him. Yeah, Alex never fought Ryu in 2I, so there's no real telling who would have won that. Most likely Ryu. Alex fought and beat Gill, but I have a feeling that Gill let him win, for reasons only Gill knows. > Alex and Guile have one thing in common....they're the main character (officially) in the SF game they appear in (SF3 and SF2 respectively). Uh, no. Alex is the main character of SF3 because Capcom officially declared as such, but Guile is no more the main character of SF2 than Chun Li is. That title still belongs to Ryu. Note how all the jpn. manga dealing with SF2 and the anime movie center mostly around Ryu (and to a lesser extnent Ken). Guile is secondary to Ryu, unless you count the US canon, in which case it's the other way around. Hell, I think Capcom arbitrarily declared Alex as the main character just so to take the focus off of Ryu and Ken for the original SF3:NG. Remember that Ruy and Ken weren't originally supposed to be in it, so they needed a new main character. Alex fit the bill. BUt then they put Ryu and Ken back in, taking the spotlight off of Alex despite Capcom's claim that he's the main character. *shrug* > I mean, if Capcom wanted Ryu to win SF2, how come they never said it? They stated who won SF1 and SF3, but never SF2. > That's because Ryu didn't make it in the final stage (withdrawal is a very possible answer) and Capcom can't think of a good story to back it up. That's exactly the case, actually. I think Capcom really doesn't know WTF to do with SF2, story-wise. That's why they've yet to declare who really won it. Having Bison being killed by Akuma is a nice deux ex machina plot to explain how Bison met his end in SF2 without announcing who won the tournament. And that's why SF3 has nothing to do with SF2. I don't know if Capcom will ever fill in these holes. Posted by Agent Guile on 03:03:2002 02:57 AM: I think when Capom made Guile the official character of SF2, it’s more of a RETCON rather than an immediate idea when Capcom made SF2. Tiamat, Can you please tell me what book states that Guile is the official SF2 character? Example of a retcon: The Ryu-Sabat bout. It is believed that Ryu won the Street Fighter 1 tournament fairly. Later, Capcom decided to rewrite what happened, and now, this is what really happened: Sagat overwhelmingly beat Ryu. Ryu was lying on the ground, heavily beaten up. Sagat was about to give him a hand (helping him get up) when suddenly, the Dark Hadou manifested on Ryu (the first and only instance of the Dark Hadou manifestation) and he unwillingly did the shoryuken thing on Sagat. Berias, It’s impossible for Gouki to kill Guile (assuming that he did make it to the final level). Guile’s skill isn’t close to Akuma, and Akuma never kills unworthy opponents (that is his philosophy) Some of the biggest upsets in SF history: 1. Adon beating Sagat 2. Alex beating Gill 3. Dan beating Sagat (but it's obviuos that Sagat gave the fight to him). Posted by Berias on 03:03:2002 05:48 AM: quote: Originally posted by Agent Guile Berias, It’s impossible for Gouki to kill Guile (assuming that he did make it to the final level). Guile’s skill isn’t close to Akuma, and Akuma never kills unworthy opponents (that is his philosophy) Some of the biggest upsets in SF history: 1. Adon beating Sagat 2. Alex beating Gill 3. Dan beating Sagat (but it's obviuos that Sagat gave the fight to him).[/color] We don't knw that his philosophy is. As far as weakness, Vega isn't close to his power, either. 3 does not count since it was a fall and not a match. Anyway, I don't think Gill was even trying against Alex. Posted by TiamatRoar on 03:03:2002 09:04 AM: Eh? When it comes to official sources, don't look at me. Ask Saiki. He's the one that stated it, and he knows a LOT more than me I'm really just a parrot here. I always thought Gouki killed Bison just because he wanted to test how strong Bison was, hoping for a worthy opponent. Obviously, Bison was a dissappointment. Posted by sano on 03:04:2002 05:45 PM: IMHO, I think that Gill lost to Alex because he thinks he's a God and probably underestimates all his opponents. I think that Urien also underestimates his opponents thinking he's very powerful, but Gill has a lot more power to back his thoughts up, since he can create and uncreate fire and ice. Furthermore, he may have just been toying with Alex since he considers him the "Chosen" one, but never thought that Alex would defeat him. Oh, on Q being Remy's dad, it's not a bad theory, only it doesn't explain how he knows the martial art style that Nash created. My guess would be that Doctrine Dark is his father since he is the only other SF we know of that went on missions with Guile, and left home to get revenge. Doctrine Dark may have learned the Sonic Boom and Flash kick, passed it on to his son, and abandoned the techniques on his quest for revenge. Of course, this theory only works if the EX series is official (most likely is not.) Since SF3 was very unpopular compared to SF2 and SFA, I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom just forgot about the whole event and never mentions any of it's characers or there histories again. I hope not, 'cuz Remy rules! Posted by Clay on 03:04:2002 07:22 PM: quote: Originally posted by God of Death By the way where is Clay. Right here. quote: He used to be the one who answered questions like this. Sorry I wasn’t around before. Just name a topic and I’ll do my best to respond. -Clay Posted by Clay on 03:04:2002 07:59 PM: quote: Originally posted by God of Death I have another question. Why does people say that Ryu is not over the Killing Intent. I know that Gouki asks him to use them in 2nd Impact, but that does not mean that he is not over it. Ryu can never get rid of the knowledge he has of the Killing Intent. He can't simpliy choose to forget them, but he can choose whether or not to use it. I really believe that he is over it by Third Strike (or even before this). Please reply and give your opinions. Holla!!!!! Official Member of Team Death You go against us and you die!!!!!! There’s a bit of a difference between the Killing Intent (Satsui no Hadou) and the true Ansatsuken arts. It is possible for a person to use the true techniques with out being overcome by the Killing Intent (see Goutetsu). Ryu’s problem doesn’t lie within the Ansatsuken style, but within himself. He has already realized that there is a weakness within himself and so he set out to overcome it. Judging by his performances in SF2 and SF3, I’d say that he is doing a pretty good job of it. I think that Ryu has grown a lot since the early days of SF, he’s a lot stronger both physically and mentally. Hopefully, if we ever see him in another SF he’ll be ready to take the next step. -Clay PS The reason that you hear people say that Ryu is not over SnH is because it isn’t an easy thing to eliminate. It’s something that Ryu would have to work at day in and day out. Because of Ryu’s immense potential, his past history, and the fact that his life revolves around fighting, something like this is more difficult for Ryu to overcome than it would be for most other people. There could be a slight chance that Ryu could be lead astray, but I’m hoping that he won’t allow himself to fall short of his goal. Posted by Clay on 03:04:2002 08:46 PM: quote: Originally posted by Grenade Falcon Okay, here's another big question......... WHY did Akuma kill Bison? My guess is that Gouki fought Vega because he boasted that he was the strongest fighter in the world. It’s only natural for Gouki to challenge him. I’ve heard people suggest or imply that Gouki attacked Vega so that he wouldn’t interfere with Ryu, but this makes no sense at all to me. I think that Ryu would have been able to take care of Vega on his own anyway. From Gouki’s point of view, if Ryu needs his protection, then he definitely isn’t the one who will push Gouki to his limits, and definitely not worthy of a death match. Gouki sought out Vega because: 1. He claimed to be unstoppable, invincible, immortal, what have you. Gouki was probably was not only interested in challenging him, but was also nursing a grudge against such an arrogant fool. If you read Gouki’s comments towards Vega (and vice-versa) you can see that the two didn’t think very highly of each other. Read their pre-fight intro from Z3 to see what I mean. 2. Gouki missed his shot at Vega the first time around (Z3). Since Gouki didn’t get a chance to defeat Vega in Z3, it’s only logical that he would take the opportunity to find out what Vega is really made of once he found out that Vega had returned. -Clay Posted by Clay on 03:04:2002 10:11 PM: quote: Originally posted by Agent Guile I think when Capom made Guile the official character of SF2, it’s more of a RETCON rather than an immediate idea when Capcom made SF2. Tiamat, Can you please tell me what book states that Guile is the official SF2 character? I don’t think that it is stated directly in a book. It seems like it’s just stated as a logical conclusion, especially considering that Guile has a pretty big vendetta against Vega and Vega is the main villain of the series (SF2). If somebody can find a direct statement, then feel free to post it. SF2 seems to have no true main character, but rather a few different themes which don’t necessarily rely on or interact with the tournament. Examples: -Vega is killed by an outsider. -Ken gets married. -Chunli takes down Shadaloo. -Dee Jay becomes a famous musician. -Blanka is reunited with his mother. -Ryu and Sagat vow to fight each other for real some day in the future. It would be really nice to finally see who fought who, but as was previously stated in this thread, I don’t know if we will ever find out. It’s much easier for Capcom to just keep it the way that is now. At this point it’s sort of a free-for-all. quote: Example of a retcon: The Ryu-Sabat bout. It is believed that Ryu won the Street Fighter 1 tournament fairly. Later, Capcom decided to rewrite what happened, and now, this is what really happened: Sagat overwhelmingly beat Ryu. Ryu was lying on the ground, heavily beaten up. Sagat was about to give him a hand (helping him get up) when suddenly, the Dark Hadou manifested on Ryu (the first and only instance of the Dark Hadou manifestation) and he unwillingly did the shoryuken thing on Sagat. This sort of statement really bothers me. Ryu “unwillingly did the shoryuken”? What is that supposed to mean? It wasn’t like Ryu was being controlled by some outside force that caused him to use that technique. Ryu chose to use the Metsu Shoryu-ken on Sagat and that’s what scared him so much. He wasn’t forced to do it against his own will, he wanted to win and was willing to do so by any means necessary. quote: Berias, It’s impossible for Gouki to kill Guile (assuming that he did make it to the final level). Guile’s skill isn’t close to Akuma, and Akuma never kills unworthy opponents (that is his philosophy) That’s a rather foolish thing to say, I don’t think that anything is really impossible for Gouki. What is more accurate is that it would be very unlikely for Gouki to kill Guile because he has little interest in him and he is not a suitable challenge either. Under these circumstances I could see Gouki letting Guile live, simply because he doesn’t care about him. I believe that that is what you were getting act. quote: Some of the biggest upsets in SF history: 1. Adon beating Sagat 2. Alex beating Gill 3. Dan beating Sagat (but it's obviuos that Sagat gave the fight to him). 1. I agree, while the public wouldn’t perceive this as a big upset (merely the no. 2 Thai fighter defeating the no.1) Sagat is in actuality a lot stronger than Adon. I wouldn’t consider this the biggest upset though. 2. I think that it should be obvious that Gill threw this match. He has some greater designs planned for Alex that we are not privy to. 3. Not really an upset at all, since we aren’t really sure how much Dan actually “beat” Sagat. Glaring omission: Ryu vs. Sagat (SF1) Still remains one of the biggest upsets in SF history. -Clay Posted by Berias on 03:04:2002 11:09 PM: the dreaded RETCON is more of a tool of the Marvel universe than of Capcom. Also WC3. Probably I shouldn't have said that. It looks like Gill wants Alex to realize that he has the same kind of power like in Gill's 3s ending (even Gouki and Q are among the streetfighters led by Gill into paradise). But no one can really figure out why he let Alex win. As far as Doctrine Dark, I think EX is sort of a what if or an alternate reality. I think Capcom threw the Q-Remey thing just to give people stuff to chew on. Can you imagine a straight shooter like Q having a sucky hippie son like Remey? Posted by Agent Guile on 03:05:2002 12:40 AM: quote: This sort of statement really bothers me. Ryu “unwillingly did the shoryuken”? What is that supposed to mean? It wasn’t like Ryu was being controlled by some outside force that caused him to use that technique. Ryu chose to use the Metsu Shoryu-ken on Sagat and that’s what scared him so much. He wasn’t forced to do it against his own will, he wanted to win and was willing to do so by any means necessary. I'm not sure if he did this unwillingly. I mean, Sagat was already giving him a hand, wasn't he? It's possible that the dark hadou manifestation on Ryu has affected his mindset. BTW, is the metsu shoryuken the same as shin shoryuken? In any case, it's pretty clear that this was the first manifetation of the Dark Hadou on Ryu. I'm not 100% sure if it was the last though. quote: That’s a rather foolish thing to say, I don’t think that anything is really impossible for Gouki. What is more accurate is that it would be very unlikely for Gouki to kill Guile because he has little interest in him and he is not a suitable challenge either. Under these circumstances I could see Gouki letting Guile live, simply because he doesn’t care about him. I believe that that is what you were getting act. Akuma is not evil by his his own ethical standards. I believe he even saved a girl once (it's in Tiamat's faq). When he killed Gouken, it was a legitimate victory because he won fairly. He has honor when it comes to fighting. Posted by G.Bonne on 03:05:2002 10:54 PM: Gen and the twins. I really dont know if this has been answered yet but is there ANY relationship between Gen and the 3strike twins Yun and Yan? who tought them their fighting arts?? Do you think they'll have some kind of future in the SF universe?? Anyone knows what hapenned to Gen?? Posted by Berias on 03:06:2002 04:14 AM: Re: Gen and the twins. quote: Originally posted by G.Bonne I really dont know if this has been answered yet but is there ANY relationship between Gen and the 3strike twins Yun and Yan? Unknown. quote: Originally posted by G.Bonne who tought them their fighting arts?? Do you think they'll have some kind of future in the SF universe?? Their grandfather. Unfortunately, yes. quote: Originally posted by G.Bonne Anyone knows what hapenned to Gen?? He is probably dead, either by Gouki or disease. He was dying when Alpha 2 was out, so by the time III rolls around he could be gone. Other people think he's the twins' grandfather and is still alive. Posted by Azrael-sama on 03:06:2002 10:25 AM: More on Gouki killing Vega... My interpretation of it has been that Gouki challenged Vega right after he lost to whoever he lost to. Like basically, Vega gets up off the ground and Gouki shows up. If this is the case, then I don't think Gouki would fight him for the challenge. I think he'd wait until Vega regained his strength, so he'd be a better fight. I think Gouki killed Vega to keep him out of Ryu's hair. Of course, Ryu can take care of himself and beat Vega. But they didn't kill him in A3, and they obviously didn't kill him in SF2. Vega would probably keep coming back...although he might never actually succeed, he'd be a distraction. I believe by this time, Gouki is waiting for Ryu to develop his skills to become his ultimate challenge. At this point, he sees Vega as a hinderance - if Ryu has to take a time out from his training every now and then to beat down Vega, it's going to slow things down. So Gouki kills him to get him out of the way. But, if the fight didn't happen immediately after SF2, perhaps a day or even a week later, then I think Clay's theory is the best one. Posted by G.Bonne on 03:06:2002 04:57 PM: what about Sean?? SFIII Dont know if you guys have discussed his story but I keep hearing that he is supossed to be Ken's aprentice... How is this true?(if it is, of course) How come Ken has a student and Ryu doesnt??? Maybe he feels he is not worthy of teaching his arts until he completely masters it?? Could you see Sean getting more stronger and developing more Ken-like moves?? Where does he come from and how is it that he met ken... PS. most of these questions can only be ansewer if he IS INFACT KEN'S aprentice, if he's not dont bother answering them. THANKS BERIAS for the info on Gen and the twins... what is your personal opinion on Gen being their grandfather? Posted by Clay on 03:06:2002 09:48 PM: quote: Originally posted by Agent Guile I'm not sure if he did this unwillingly. I mean, Sagat was already giving him a hand, wasn't he? It's possible that the dark hadou manifestation on Ryu has affected his mindset. BTW, is the metsu shoryuken the same as shin shoryuken? In any case, it's pretty clear that this was the first manifetation of the Dark Hadou on Ryu. I'm not 100% sure if it was the last though. Ryu chose to attack Sagat. From Sagat’s point of view, the fight was over and he had won, so he thought that he would be a good sport and help his defeated opponent up. However, in Satsui no Ryu’s eyes, the fight wasn’t over and Sagat had left himself open so he used the opportunity to claim victory. After Ryu had won, he realized what he had done and tried to figure out why exactly he did what he had done. What caused him to attack an opponent who was clearly not ready to defend himself? If it had been a life or death situation, then there wouldn’t have been anything wrong with his actions, but it wasn’t, it was a tournament (a friendly competition of sorts). Why had he acted so irrationally? With these questions in mind, Ryu went back to talk to Master Gouken about his experiences in the tournament. Unfortunately, by the time he arrived at the dojo Gouken had already been slain by Gouki and Ryu would later learn about Satsui no Hadou from Gouki. I just wanted to clear up the whole SnH thing. It’s not an outside force, but rather something that comes from within. When somebody says something like “Ryu used the shoryuken unwillingly” or “SnH forced Ryu to use it” it doesn’t portray Satsui no Hadou in the proper light. Metsu Shory-ken is roughly translated as Destructive Rising Dragon Punch or Rising Dragon Punch of Destruction. It fits the description of the technique used against Sagat, so that is how I refer to it. In Z3 it is portrayed as a lunge with the elbow, follow up by a shoryu-ken. From the right distance, the move will become shinshoryuken-esque, though it still does squat for damage. I don’t believe that Ryu hit Sagat with anything other than a Shoryu-ken (no elbow lunge). It was probably very similar to the original technique that Goutetsu created which is why it almost tore Sagat apart. I think that Capcom created the Metsu Shoryu-ken to represent the move that nearly killed Sagat, but I wouldn’t quote me on that. quote: Akuma is not evil by his his own ethical standards. I believe he even saved a girl once (it's in Tiamat's faq). When he killed Gouken, it was a legitimate victory because he won fairly. Why are you telling me this? You essentially just paraphrased some of my earlier posts so I don’t know why it needs to be repeated. Also, it carries no relevance whatsoever to anything that I said. Reread my post in context with your previous post. I was merely clearing up a slight misinterpretation. You said that it is impossible for Gouki to kill Guile, which frankly, isn’t true. I reasoned that it would be very unlikely for Gouki to kill Guile because he has little reason to even fight him to begin with. There shouldn’t be an argument here. -Clay Posted by Clay on 03:06:2002 10:08 PM: Re: Gen and the twins. Az: Two thoughts: -Your right, by having Gouki fight Vega, it severly lessons the chances of him returning (by attacking his soul). But I still believe that Gouki had a personal vendetta against Vega. If anything else, he may have just wanted to show everybody who's boss by thrashing the one man who had previously been considered top tier. -Another good point is that we aren't exactly sure when they fought. It is generally assumed that it was during the tournament but there isn't really any proof of this. Very interesting. It is most likely that it did happen at least near the time of the tournament, but it is still a good point. quote: Originally posted by G.Bonne I really dont know if this has been answered yet but is there ANY relationship between Gen and the 3strike twins Yun and Yan? who tought them their fighting arts?? Do you think they'll have some kind of future in the SF universe?? Anyone knows what hapenned to Gen?? 1. If you mean by blood then the answer is no, that is a Cap USA fallacy. 2. Actually I believe that it is Gen who officially trained the twins. I think that the whole grandfather issue came up because Gen is often linked to them. 3. I don't really care if they ever show up again, but they do have a pretty strong fan base so there is a pretty good possibility. 4. Berias hit the nail on the head with this one. He's most likely dead, but who knows? Whether he met his supposed death at the hands of Gouki or because of his fatal illenss is also unknown. I'd like to think that he finally got his death match and died honorably (as well as happy). -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 03:06:2002 11:18 PM: Oi... there are TONS of misconceptions about the true canon of Yun and Yang and Gen. To the point where I'm not sure about a lot of it and still have to iron out quite a few for myself (Yun, Yang, and Lee's connection to the underworld and whether or not Yun and Yang still take care of Gen's restaurant and whether or not Lee was offed by the mafia for losing the SF1 tournament, blah blah blah). But yea, Clay got those questions about them that he answered right. What he said are some of the few things I can say for sure are true about Yun and Yang. I think their father, Lee, was also a main teacher of Yun and Yang too, though, but not too sure about that Clay pretty much answered the questions on the satsu no hadou right. As for why Gouki killed Vega, I too feel that it was just because Gouki was looking for a worthy foe and M. Bison was supposed to be THE foe at the time (there was probably no more Gen for Gouki to fight, after all). Posted by Clay on 03:07:2002 12:12 AM: quote: Originally posted by G.Bonne what about Sean?? SFIII Dont know if you guys have discussed his story but I keep hearing that he is supossed to be Ken's aprentice... How is this true?(if it is, of course) How come Ken has a student and Ryu doesnt??? Maybe he feels he is not worthy of teaching his arts until he completely masters it?? Could you see Sean getting more stronger and developing more Ken-like moves?? Where does he come from and how is it that he met ken... PS. most of these questions can only be ansewer if he IS INFACT KEN'S aprentice, if he's not dont bother answering them. THANKS BERIAS for the info on Gen and the twins... what is your personal opinion on Gen being their grandfather? What about him? 1. It's true, he is Ken's student. Check his endings in both 2i and 3s for proof. I believe that he also has some pre-fight dialogue with Ken. Sean expressed an interest in fighting and he seems to have a lot of natural athleticism so Ken took him under his wing. 2. Ryu doesn't have a student because he still considers himself to be one. Back in Z2 Sakura asked him to train her but he denied her offer and stated that there was still too much for him to learn. 3. Exactly, though I'm not sure if Ryu will ever feel that he has "mastered" his art. There will always be a new challenge. I wonder if training his own pupil(s) will ever be one of these challenges. It doesn't seem like it will happen any time soon. 4. While 2i Sean seems to have a lot of potential, he's nearly incompetent in 3s and has been turned into a bit of a joke character. If this is the way that Capcom continues to develop him then I don't ever want to see him again. I really don't care to see another Dan. 5. Sean Matsuda hails from Brazil and is 1/2 (or is it 1/4? I forgot, but it's somewhere in this thread) Japanese. He is naturally gifted and sought out Ken for tutelage after watching him win a tournament. -Clay PS Tiamat, good point about Lee, I hadn't mentioned him. Last I heard, he was missing. I'm not sure how well Yun or Yang knew him. Posted by keeno_uk on 03:07:2002 12:54 PM: ryu bio yeah can you tell me about ryu's life and how and why he began to fill the dark hadou turning him into evil ryu and if he ever got back to normal Posted by sano on 03:07:2002 06:04 PM: I noticed something interesting about the non-cannon games. In CVS1, that old SFA1 background is used (the one with the Sonson store) in the background that shows the new Kyokugenryu dojo being built. In Cannon Spike which takes place a little further in the future, we can see the same background from an overhead view. On this level, a jeep crashes threw a building that is off screen, which is the same exact spot that the Kyokugenryu dojo was being built, meaning that it gets trashed in the future! Now I'm sure that Capcom pays no attention to a game made by Psycho and that this is just a coincidence, but I thought this was kind of funny. More on topic, in Satsui no Hado's ending in CVS2, the narrator asks if Ryu should turn to his friends for help. Friends? I thought he had no friends like it was stated in the original SF2 ending. I guess SFA3 has changed Ryu's character some what so he now considers characters like Sagat, Sakura and Ken as friends and not just rivals. I notice that the "no friends or family" statement is gone from Ryu's new SF2 Turbo Revival ending. Posted by TiamatRoar on 03:08:2002 06:14 AM: Ryu turns to his friends for help in SFA3. Just look at his ending where he thinks about all the people he's met in his life as Bison tries to turn him to the Psycho Power darkside. Which is basically also his conflict with his choice on turning to Satsu no hadou... or at least, that's why Capcom had Bison say Psycho Power is sister to Satsu no Hadou even though they really are two completely different things, I believe. For Ryu's history (and lots of other things), go to http://www.tekken.nu/fightermania/sf/sfplotguide22.htm Posted by God of Death on 03:08:2002 04:59 PM: Hi everybody! Yo Clay glade to see you back!!! Anyway on to the questions I have. First, I know I'm going to sound kind og messed up but Sagat kinda desearves what he got. He was winning his fight and he should have ended it. The only reason I say this is because if he had won the macth and then Ryu hit him then that means Sagat won and Ryu hit him after the match. This is kinda my questions is Sagat won the match and then went to help and was then hit then he should have been the champion and Ryu would have been just a dishonorable fighter. But since it is stated thst Ryu won what I think happened was Sagt was kicking Ryu's ass and thought "This kid is good, but I'm starting to kick his ass very badly. I think he has had enough". Then wham. Kinda like when your beating up on your little brother and then you stop after he is a crying mess then he gets that really good shot in (All older brothers like me know what I'm talking about, except our little brothers can't do uppercuts that were created to rip people apart...). Anyway I think Sagat should have knocked Ryu out then helped him up AFTER he regained concious. SOOO looking at it this way it is Sagat's own fault. He should have finished the match instead of trying to be nice DURING the match. Damn that was longer than I thought it would be. I'll right my second question later tonight. But I would like alot of people to commen on this anyway that's all. Holla!!!!! Official Meber of Team Death "You go against us you DIE!!!! Simple as that" Posted by sano on 03:08:2002 06:04 PM: I think that Sagat would have lost the fight anyway, since Ryu did become Satsui No Hado Ryu. Although, he probably would not have been scarred if he didn't try to give Ryu a hand. Then again, since Satsui no Hado Ryu, normal Ryu and Sagat are all on pretty much the same level according to Saiki's Top Tier list, it could have gone either way. Posted by sano on 03:08:2002 06:33 PM: WHOOPS! Almost forgot that Saiki's Top Tier list reffered to the characters in their most current state and not their SFA state. My guess would then be that Satsui no Hado Ryu would have won no matter what, just might of not given Sagat the scar if he didn't put his hand out. Posted by Clay on 03:08:2002 07:43 PM: Re: ryu bio quote: Originally posted by keeno_uk yeah can you tell me about ryu's life and how and why he began to fill the dark hadou turning him into evil ryu and if he ever got back to normal If you have read the thread, there has been a lot of info on Ryu spread out through out it. Tiamats FAQ is an excellent source of info and gathers the info from this thread and puts it into a more logical and organized format. Highly recommended. Anyway, since Ryu is my favorite character, I’ll give short bio on his history. If you have any questions or want to get into any specific details, just ask. I’ll lay down the facts, and keep my opinions separate. Here’s a brief summary: Pre-SF1 -Ryu is left with Gouken by his mother (reasons unknown) at an early age. Gouken raises Ryu from then on. -Gouken begins to teach Ryu an adapted form of Goutetsu’s Ansatsu-ken. Ryu is around 10-13 years old and has a training partner who is roughly the same age (Ken Masters). Ken was brought to Gouken by his father so that Gouken could teach and discipline him. Both are excellent students but Ryu especially seems to posses certain intangibles which may make him superior. -After approximately 10 years of training Ryu and Ken go there own separate ways. Ryu enters the First World Warrior’s Tournament which is being held by the current Muay Thai God, Sagat. Meanwhile, Ken travels back to America and will enter various martial arts tournaments. He will eventually become the US Martial Arts Champion. SF1 -Ryu makes his way through the tournament and eventually earns the right to challenge Sagat. During the fight, Ryu is clearly outclassed by Sagat and beaten down. In a twist of fate, Sagat claims himself the winner and offers to help Ryu up, leaving himself completely open. Ryu uses the opportunity to attack Sagat, leveling him with a Shoryu-ken and is crowned Champion. -Ryu’s victory did not come with out a price. Afterwards, Ryu is concerned over his behavior during the final battle and worries about the strange forces that he wielded. He journeys back home to tell Gouken of his experiences and have his questions answered. -Upon arrival at Gouken’s dojo, Ryu learns that Gouken has been killed. Ken, who came back to visit Gouken and Ryu, witnessed his death. Ryu knows that he must seek out the man who killed his Master, Gouken’s brother Gouki. At this point, with the exception of the abilities that Ryu displayed in his confrontation with Sagat, Ryu and Ken are nearly equal in skill and abilities. They part ways once again but are sure to cross paths again as friends and rivals. To be continued… Posted by Clay on 03:08:2002 07:54 PM: God of Death: I'm glad that somebody else has this opinion. Usually when I mention it people don't quite understand. They're always too caught up with the SnH and how "evil" Ryu is at that time that they miss the point. I think that your a little too harsh on Sagat, because while he didn't "deserve" what he got, he did make an error in judgement and that led to him getting whacked. Ryu still is at fault for losing control and taking a cheap shot, but I think that an older more mature Sagat realizes that he could have avoided the situation completely. I'd like to dissect this more later. I've got to go now, but I'll try to get back on later tonight. I'd like to finish my above thoughts as well as finish my previous post. I'd also like to comment on Psycho Power-SnH, Ryu and "friends", and any other replies that are posted. I won't be around over the weekend (too busy) but I'll try to get back in touch early next week. See ya', Clay Posted by God of Death on 03:08:2002 08:47 PM: Clay: Glad to see that you agree with me. I apologize for sounding so harsh about Sagat, your right he didn't really desearve it. Anyway here is my question and I hope people respond. Who was Ken fighting during the time Ryu was in the first Street Fighter tournament. Like did he beat Charlie for the U.S. title or did he fight other gifted fighters? I just read Clay's earlier post and since they parted almost equals does that mean Ken won their first match since then? Also how many times have Ken and Ryu fought? Ryu says he has the better win percentage so which ones has he won. Ken won the first in Alpha 2, I don't know who won in Street Fighter 2 if they meet, and I know Ryu won in 3rd strike. So wouldn't they be equal in win percentage? I don't know that's why I'm asking. That's all. Holla!!!!! Official Member of Team Death "You go against us you DIE!!! Simple as that" Posted by Berias on 03:09:2002 01:00 AM: I think Ryu could be referring to other opponents they have faced over the years. Ryu hasn't lost as many times. Or, not all the matches of Ryu vs Ken have been recorded. Sagat is mostly an honorable fellow, except for that time he tore Go into pieces for taking out his eye. He didn't really deserve what happened. Posted by Azrael-sama on 03:09:2002 08:41 AM: Before Ryu and Ken left the dojo, I imagine they sparred a whole lot. That's probably where the majority of their fights have come from. I don't know how often they met during Zero, post Zero, or even during SF2, but I get the impression that it wasn't a whole lot. Especially since Ryu travels around so much, it's not like Ken could just call him up or drop by and they'd get a match in. Posted by Agent Guile on 03:09:2002 12:23 PM: Saiki haven't answered my email yet. Anyway, here's my question. Did Saiki's tier ranking post come from single statement (like a single paragraph from a book or something) from Capcom, or did it come from various facts which he just put up together? Posted by Grenade Falcon on 03:10:2002 08:05 AM: I have some questions regarding the nature of the Satsui No Hado. 1.) When it has awakened from within one individual, does it really change the character's personality or mindset in any way? I don't believe Akuma is the way he is because of it, but then again, Ryu would probably turn out to be like Evil Ryu if it ever awakened and he was still obsessed with winning (after all, he was pretty concerned about his behavior after he beat Sagat in SF1). I do know that the Satsui No Hado has some effect on strength and chi-manipulation, or so I've been told. 2.) Does the Satsui No Hado apply to those who practice Ansatsuken only? and 3.) This may sound kinda dumb, but it's not possible to STEAL the Satsui No Hado from somebody, is it? I know CvS2 isn't canon, but I'm just curious as to why Capcom would have Akuma get the Satsui No Hado sucked out of him by Rugal so that Rugal could become God Rugal before you fight him. Thanks. Posted by Siegfried on 03:10:2002 06:59 PM: Rugal isn't just your regular fighter. Part of the Orochi power seems to be absorbing powers from others. Thus Rugal has variations on Reppuken, Kaiser Wave etc, and the Orochi New Faces Team has moves from the Hero Team in 1997. Absorbing Satsui no Hado would be simple for Rugal. Then again, actually CONTROLLING it isn't as simple. Posted by Berias on 03:10:2002 09:49 PM: quote: Originally posted by Grenade Falcon I have some questions regarding the nature of the Satsui No Hado. 1.) When it has awakened from within one individual, does it really change the character's personality or mindset in any way? I don't believe Akuma is the way he is because of it, but then again, Ryu would probably turn out to be like Evil Ryu if it ever awakened and he was still obsessed with winning (after all, he was pretty concerned about his behavior after he beat Sagat in SF1). I do know that the Satsui No Hado has some effect on strength and chi-manipulation, or so I've been told. It does. If it did not, Killing Ryu would not have acted crazy. His desires are different from normal Ryu. quote: Originally posted by Grenade Falcon 2.) Does the Satsui No Hado apply to those who practice Ansatsuken only? Difficult to say. Probably not. But remember that Gen's style is not similar to Ryu's yet it's called Ansatsu-Ken. But don't go looking for Killing Zangief anytime soon. quote: Originally posted by Grenade Falcon 3.) This may sound kinda dumb, but it's not possible to STEAL the Satsui No Hado from somebody, is it? I know CvS2 isn't canon, but I'm just curious as to why Capcom would have Akuma get the Satsui No Hado sucked out of him by Rugal so that Rugal could become God Rugal before you fight him. Don't be concerned about stuff that goes on in the VS games and then try to relate them to the actual game. I don't get the impression that Killing Intent is like a goo that can be sucked out of a person. Nevermind the fact that Rugal would never touch Gouki in the first place... Posted by Grenade Falcon on 03:11:2002 01:02 AM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried Rugal isn't just your regular fighter. Part of the Orochi power seems to be absorbing powers from others. Thus Rugal has variations on Reppuken, Kaiser Wave etc, and the Orochi New Faces Team has moves from the Hero Team in 1997. Absorbing Satsui no Hado would be simple for Rugal. Then again, actually CONTROLLING it isn't as simple. I thought Rugal just watched those moves being done and mimicked them? As far as I know, he's never even met Krauser or Geese to absorb those moves like he does with Akuma in CvS2, if at all he really can. Do you suppose this is a false representation of Rugal on Capcom's part? quote: Originally posted by Berias Don't be concerned about stuff that goes on in the VS games and then try to relate them to the actual game. I don't get the impression that Killing Intent is like a goo that can be sucked out of a person. Nevermind the fact that Rugal would never touch Gouki in the first place... The reason I'm asking about this is because I'm concerned about Capcom mis-representing their own storylines in CvS2 as well as SNK's (which could very well be an infringement on the licensing agreement, although I suppose it isn't since there were no reports of SNK filing a lawsuit against Capcom and such). I think that in a crossover battle such as CvS, everything should at least stay true to their origins to make it more interesting, unlike the MvC series where everything's blown out of proportion. But to get back on topic..... I guess what you're telling me is that Satsui No Hado is more of a ritual instead of a mere "power", right? Posted by sano on 03:11:2002 06:37 PM: I think Satsui No Hado can be awakened in someone who already has it, like Vega (the dictator) tried to do to Ryu in his SFA3 ending. I don't think it can be absorbed, but if their was a power out there that could absorb Satsui No Hado and figure out all of Gouki's techniques it would have to be God-like, and that's what the Orochi power is. A good way to think of the CVS series is to compare it to the upcoming JLA/Avengers crossover. Hawkeye is being placed in this series as an Avenger even though right now he is a member of Thunderbolts. Why? Because everyone wants to see Hawkeye go up against Green Arrow! If versus series worried about strict continuity, we'd be missing a lot of cool characters like Vice, Haomaru, Rock Howard, and hell, no God Rugal who is an awesome Boss! When it comes to versus series, like the makers of the Spiderman cartoon said when they decided to make Electro the Red Skull's son, CCNTINUITY BE DAMNED! Posted by Clay on 03:11:2002 07:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by God of Death Clay: Glad to see that you agree with me. I apologize for sounding so harsh about Sagat, your right he didn't really desearve it. Anyway here is my question and I hope people respond. Who was Ken fighting during the time Ryu was in the first Street Fighter tournament. Like did he beat Charlie for the U.S. title or did he fight other gifted fighters? I just read Clay's earlier post and since they parted almost equals does that mean Ken won their first match since then? Also how many times have Ken and Ryu fought? Ryu says he has the better win percentage so which ones has he won. Ken won the first in Alpha 2, I don't know who won in Street Fighter 2 if they meet, and I know Ryu won in 3rd strike. So wouldn't they be equal in win percentage? I don't know that's why I'm asking. That's all. Holla!!!!! Official Member of Team Death "You go against us you DIE!!! Simple as that" When Ken left Gouken’s dojo, he went back home to the US and competed for the US Martial Arts Tournament. He fought against various American fighters and was victorious. I don’t think that he ever met Nash (the previous champion) because Nash was probably too busy trying to hunt down Vega and Shadaloo at this point. After Ryu and Ken reunited, they may have done some more sparring, but it was Ken who did win the big match between them (Ken’s SFZ2 ending). This was their first major fight since they had completed their training. Ryu vs. Ken Azrael has a good grasp on the situation. Ryu and Ken have fought each other many times, though mainly in their training days. However, most of their matches have been more like sparring matches. I consider them sparring matches because they aren’t fighting to the death and most of their fights are not tournament sponsored (more of a private affair). Ryu stating that he has the better win record is Capcom’s way of showing that even though they have nearly been equal; Ryu has always had an edge over Ken. It’s the slight differences between the two that make Ryu the stronger warrior. Everything mentioned by Capcom leads toward this conclusion; the differences in their reasons for fighting, the reasoning behind Ken’s red gi, Ryu’s battle with SnH, and Ryu’s 3s statement all follow the same path of logic. We don’t have many confirmed battles between the two, but I’ll try and give an analysis of the situation. Pre SF1 This is where the bulk of the matches take place. Ryu and Ken are in constant training and often had to spar with each other to gain experience and to hone and alter their abilities. Practical application is the best way to test ones mastery of any technique. Its unknown how many times they fought, and how many times they each won. Also, it is very likely that a lot of the matches ended with no distinct winner, though one person may have had an edge during the “match”, it doesn’t really matter because it is implied that each one had their share of victories. Ryu’s 3s quote confirms that he did have the upper hand. SF1 Ken was not entered in the tourney so they did not face each other at this time. SFZ2 After the SF1 tourney both Ken and Ryu were both back at the dojo. Before Ken leaves, he and Ryu have one major battle in which Ken was clearly the victor. The two may have done some training here before the main fight, but there wasn’t one person who dominated. SFZ3 It seems unlikely that Ken and Ryu fought here, especially because Sagat was the one who took on Psycho Ryu and there was no indication whatsoever that Ken stayed to fight Ryu after he (Ryu) defeated Vega. SF2 No confirmed fight. These two usually seize the opportunity to fight each other because they don’t meet as often as they used to, but Capcom hasn’t said anything. My opinion is that if they did fight, then Ryu won. SF3 2i Another tourney with no confirmation. Ken didn’t win, so he was either defeated, or he dropped out after he fought Sean. I don’t know why he would drop out, but Capcom never mentioned that he lost, so we don’t know yet. SF3 3s Ryu travels to the US to find Ken and have a match. Ryu wins this one. -Clay Posted by Clay on 03:11:2002 08:20 PM: quote: Originally posted by Agent Guile Saiki haven't answered my email yet. Anyway, here's my question. Did Saiki's tier ranking post come from single statement (like a single paragraph from a book or something) from Capcom, or did it come from various facts which he just put up together? My guess is that it wasn't directly stated by Capcom. Rather, it's more likely that Saiki gathered all of the info himself and gave a very accurate rating on how the SF'er ranked against each other. That ranking will probably change in the future if more SF games are released but for now, that is how things stand. Hats off to him. If I'm wrong, I hope that Saiki stops by to answer the question, I haven't talked to him in a Looooooooong time. I guess he's busy. -Clay Posted by Clay on 03:11:2002 10:30 PM: Some random thoughts: Tiamat: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar Ryu turns to his friends for help in SFA3. Just look at his ending where he thinks about all the people he's met in his life as Bison tries to turn him to the Psycho Power darkside. Which is basically also his conflict with his choice on turning to Satsu no hadou... or at least, that's why Capcom had Bison say Psycho Power is sister to Satsu no Hadou even though they really are two completely different things, I believe. For Ryu's history (and lots of other things), go to http://www.tekken.nu/fightermania/sf/sfplotguide22.htm Capcom wasn’t making Vega spew out gibberish, and they weren’t trying to BS their way through the storyline, what Vega was speaking was the truth. While Psycho Power and Ansatsu-ken are totally different as far as fighting styles are considered, there is a connection between Psycho Power and Satsui no Hadou. Psycho Power is the corrupted form of energy that Vega uses to feed off of negative emotions such as fear and hatred. Satsui no Hadou is the “corrupted” form of Ryu’s fighting spirit. The common link between the two is that they both stem from the same thoughts and goals: the desire to crush opponents and to become dominant. Psycho Power was formed out of Vega’s obsession to rule the world in the very same way that Gouki’s obsession to be strongest causes Satsui no Hadou to manifest itself. The same applies to Ryu and his unchecked desire to win the WW Tournament and defeat Sagat, another case of Satsui no Hadou. Psycho Power is sister to (or kindred to) Satsui no Hadou because it is the same emotions and urges that spawn them. They are essentially the same at the core and just happen to manifest themselves through different sources or forms of energy (as well as fighting styles, etc…). GF: quote: I have some questions regarding the nature of the Satsui No Hado. 1.) When it has awakened from within one individual, does it really change the character's personality or mindset in any way? I don't believe Akuma is the way he is because of it, but then again, Ryu would probably turn out to be like Evil Ryu if it ever awakened and he was still obsessed with winning (after all, he was pretty concerned about his behavior after he beat Sagat in SF1). I do know that the Satsui No Hado has some effect on strength and chi-manipulation, or so I've been told. 2.) Does the Satsui No Hado apply to those who practice Ansatsuken only? and 3.) This may sound kinda dumb, but it's not possible to STEAL the Satsui No Hado from somebody, is it? I know CvS2 isn't canon, but I'm just curious as to why Capcom would have Akuma get the Satsui No Hado sucked out of him by Rugal so that Rugal could become God Rugal before you fight him. 1. Yes, SnH does change the way a person behaves, thinks, acts, etc… it is all encompassing. However, it’s not like a person becomes afflicted with SnH and they change, the person chooses that sort of lifestyle/ideals. Gouki is who he is because that’s what he wanted to be. Satsui no Hadou represented all that he wanted and believed in. Ryu is different from Gouki so he doesn’t walk the same path, but for a while he waned, unable to tell which path would help him achieve his goals (he was even unsure of what his goals actually were during this time). Ryu struggles to overcome SnH because he believes that in the end, it will hinder him from realizing his true potential. 2. In one sense yes, in a very different sense, no. Anybody can or could experience something like Satsui no Hadou. In my above paragraph, you can see how this is possible (the Psycho Power-SnH comparison applies directly to this). For Sagat it was his anger, hatred, and desire for revenge that he had to overcome (this took him years). Ken even dealt with a similar situation; he had to learn to not lose himself in his quest to be better than Ryu and try to focus on just improving himself. Ryu’s SnH is different from most other cases in the sense that it is much, much stronger, mainly because of his potential, his drive and focus on fighting, and the fact that SnH is fundamental to his way of life. This is why something like this doesn’t have as much of a hold over other people and doesn’t have such a powerful manifestation. I guess what I’m saying is that a lot of people can hit a wall, an inner struggle that they have to overcome, but very few people have deal with it on the scale that Ryu must. 3. It shouldn’t be possible. What his possible is that Rugal could have learned/stolen Gouki’s techniques and then have been corrupted by his new found power. From here, he would be destined to walk the same path as Gouki because he now only cared about being the strongest, SnH naturally influences him now. quote: I guess what you're telling me is that Satsui No Hado is more of a ritual instead of a mere "power", right? It’s not really a ritual, but it’s definitely more than just a power; it’s hard to put into tangible terms. It’s directly tied to a philosophy and a way of life. It can help people attain power, but at the same time, lead to their demise. For Gouki, it is a way of life, however, for Ryu, it is a weakness that he must overcome. -Clay Posted by sano on 03:12:2002 10:42 PM: Clay - Wow! Never thought Satsui No Hado and Psycho Power had anything in common! Thanks for the info! Posted by G.Bonne on 03:13:2002 03:31 PM: Is there any proof that Poison is in fact a man?? I just read this today looking for some Hugo pics(wich BTW, I only found 2 in an extensive search) at it said that Poison is in fact a man but that it is posible that Hugo isnt aware of it. Can someone clear this up? Posted by sano on 03:13:2002 05:29 PM: I'm sure the experts Tiamatroar, Saiki and Clay can give you a better answer to the Poison's a man argument, but the only peice of information I can provide you with is this. In the Capcom Illustrations book, there is a drawing of almost every Capcom female up to that date (1994). It is interesting to note that Poison is not included, when she is even on the cover of the book! Of course, the artwork is probably not official, but it is interesting to note that Poison is missing, if this helps the "she's a man" argument. Posted by Siegfried on 03:13:2002 05:53 PM: The proof is in All About Capcom, an official book which tells about the Capcom characters. It says so. Posted by G.Bonne on 03:15:2002 07:56 PM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried The proof is in All About Capcom, an official book which tells about the Capcom characters. It says so. Is there any way I can get that book?? Cuz I keep hearing about it...but I have no clue as to where finf it... If anyone knows...please tell me! Thanks you guys! Does anyone has an idea if Ken has a son or daughter? I think so..but I am not sure..I heard it was Mel or something like that. Could it be possible in the future we could see him/her?? Posted by Grenade Falcon on 03:15:2002 09:58 PM: quote: Originally posted by G.Bonne Is there any way I can get that book?? Cuz I keep hearing about it...but I have no clue as to where finf it... If anyone knows...please tell me! Thanks you guys! Does anyone has an idea if Ken has a son or daughter? I think so..but I am not sure..I heard it was Mel or something like that. Could it be possible in the future we could see him/her?? Even if you did get the book, I doubt you'd be able to read it because it's in Japanese. And yes, Ken has a son named Mel. If you want to know what he looks like, check Ken's SF3: New Generation ending. Ken's training him out in the yard, and when he tells Mel to give him his best shot, he gets socked in the nuts! He's also in Ken's X-Men vs. SF ending. If you're asking if it's possible to see him in Street Fighter as a playable character, I'd say it's unlikely. He's only six or seven during Street Fighter 3 and it'd take him at least ten years for him to become as good as, oh I dunno, Sean. And I doubt Capcom would jump that far into the future for SF4 or 5. Posted by Clay on 03:18:2002 09:09 PM: sano: Thanks! I'm glad to hear that all my rambling helps out. As for Mel, there seems to be a lot of people who want him to carry on the Masters torch. Like GF, I really don't think that he would be in the next SF game, but he may pop up some day. I don't know if it's really necessary for him to be included, but he might be a better alternative than Sean, who played the role of "Dan" in 3s. ... Not really much else to add today, I'll keep in touch. -Clay PS Not that it's a big deal, but I'm going to assume that Mel's only 3-5 years old during SF3. I'm pretty sure that he was born after SF2 (1993). Posted by Grenade Falcon on 03:18:2002 10:06 PM: Just thought of something, Of all the Ansatsuken techniques in existence, why did Gouki finish Goutetsu with the Shun Goku Satsu? Did he feel any hatred for him? Posted by Berias on 03:19:2002 06:07 AM: quote: Originally posted by Grenade Falcon Of all the Ansatsuken techniques in existence, why did Gouki finish Goutetsu with the Shun Goku Satsu? Did he feel any hatred for him? It was probably the best move to use at the time. This makes you wonder if Goutetsu was so powerful, why couldn't he clear his mind like Gen and survive the attack? Probably he was under a lot of stress from the fight, or mentally worn out. Hatred? Not necessarily. I imagine that from Gouki's point of view, it was simply the way things ought to be. Clay wrote: "Ryu struggles to overcome SnH because he believes that in the end, it will hinder him from realizing his true potential." Uh...that isn't stated in any of the games. it isn't even strongly implied. You have to stretch things out and add some filler to make that true. So far, the only rock solid reason we have for Ryu not using the whole of the art is that "he doesn't like it". This may be Capcomese for "we have no idea, in the meantime please buy Capcom vs Marvel 5" Ryu seems comfortable with not being the world's best, which was agreed upon earlier in this thread. Now why all of a sudden would he decide that the diluted, incomplete form of the art would lead him to a higher potential than the meta-humans who use the complete form? there's no logic in that. If by "true potential" you mean "makes him happiest", you may be right. but generally when you say true potential you mean the strongest you can get, and we know the the incomplete form simply isn't as powerful as the real deal, and those who use it will always be weaker. There is no reason to suppose that Ryu training for n years using the current style would be stronger than Ryu using the real thing for n years. In fact, all evidence points to just the opposite. I await your thoughts. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 03:19:2002 07:24 AM: Clay wrote: "Ryu struggles to overcome SnH because he believes that in the end, it will hinder him from realizing his true potential." Uh...that isn't stated in any of the games. it isn't even strongly implied. You have to stretch things out and add some filler to make that true. So far, the only rock solid reason we have for Ryu not using the whole of the art is that "he doesn't like it". This may be Capcomese for "we have no idea, in the meantime please buy Capcom vs Marvel 5" Ryu seems comfortable with not being the world's best, which was agreed upon earlier in this thread. Now why all of a sudden would he decide that the diluted, incomplete form of the art would lead him to a higher potential than the meta-humans who use the complete form? there's no logic in that. If by "true potential" you mean "makes him happiest", you may be right. but generally when you say true potential you mean the strongest you can get, and we know the the incomplete form simply isn't as powerful as the real deal, and those who use it will always be weaker. There is no reason to suppose that Ryu training for n years using the current style would be stronger than Ryu using the real thing for n years. In fact, all evidence points to just the opposite. Hey, I actually agree all the way. Ryu under SnH could be right up in the same tier with Gouki if it ever awakened in his current state. But SnH doesn't come from mastering the art, I believe. As Clay said, it is centered around one's drive and focus on fighting, and negative emotions. Ryu, however, no longer cares about winning the fight at all costs and becoming the best, so the chance of SnH awakening in him again is slim. Posted by Golden Hell on 03:19:2002 01:29 PM: Hey fellas. Nothing really much to add during this current discussion. Its just that I went back to the first page of this thread and couldn't believe this thread has been going on for about six months now. Pretty cool For a game that most other gamers like to dismiss as 'lacking' in the storyline department, we sure have talked alot about it. Keep it up guys. Posted by TiamatRoar on 03:19:2002 04:40 PM: Argh! Delete post option not working! Posted by TiamatRoar on 03:19:2002 04:47 PM: Street Fighter's biggest problem is the presentation of the storyline within the games. It IS in fact there, but you have to pay lots of attention to get it. Before you can even remotely begin to piece together the Doll saga in SFA3, for instance, you must beat the game with Cammy, Juli, Vega, and possibly Thunder Hawk and Rose, and you must pay careful attention to the dialogue as you do so. Then after that, you have to eliminate the what-if endings like E. Honda (not too hard), Chun-Li (a bit harder but still doable), and Juni (though it shouldn't be too hard to figure out that this is the Dolls' 'bad ending' if Cammy weren't there to save them all) For Ryu, you have to play as Ryu in SFA2 AND as Ken in SFA2 and possibly as Sakura in SFA2, then for SFA3 you have to play as Ryu, Sakura, and Sagat while paying careful attention to the dialogue, and even then it's near impossible to figure out the "Sakura and Ken fought Bison at the same time" thing (why couldn't they have just made you fight Bison with Sakura and Ken dramatic battle style for that final boss battle then? That would have been fun ) In addition to this, the Street Fighter storyline is a LOT more complicated than the King of Fighters storyline. The King of Fighters storyline layout is "Most teams assemble together to fight the evil organization running the tournament." Some teams have ulterior motives (Geese Howard affiliated teams, for example), but most do not or they have really gimpy motives (usually the female team. They don't have any really big storylines. Art of Fighting team has very slow plot progression and purpose as well, as does Psycho Soldier team, though the latter finally shows signs of actually doing something in KOF 2001 and beyond). This keeps the story simple and very easy to follow within the games. Street Fighter, meanwhile, doesn't have all teams focusing on just going after the villain. In fact, Alpha and Third Strike weren't even tournaments, at all. Instead, it follows each individual character's storyline, as opposed to most characters heading for the same goal like they do in King of Fighters Furthermore, no offense to anyone, but any retard can figure out that Kyo is destined to fight Orochi and that one goes into a riot of blood because it's... well, in their blood to do so. But can you figure out the real intricacies of the Satsu no Hadou philosophy and all the character motivations behind it that makes one choose to give in to it? People will generally say that Riot of Blood makes for a better storyline simply because they know what Riot of Blood IS, but if you take the time to figure out and realize what Satsu no Hadou is, I'd think any person with knowledge of what makes a good storyline and what doesn't would realize that it's the better story. Riot of blood is all about randomly going into a killing spree just because your bloodline decreed it. Satsu no Hadou, meanwhile, involves a choice the user makes, is a philosophy with its own many connotations, and actually forces some character debate within Ryu on whether to utilize it or not. It has actual HUMAN motivations behind it which need to be explored and analyzed, as opposed to the very simplistic reason of one being FORCED to go into it just because one was born to. Also, Street Fighter consists of multiple character stories which, while they interweave a lot, are generally separate and each on their own. For example, Akuma, Ryu, and Sagat are all main characters of their own storyline. They interweave and cross paths with each other a lot, no doubt, but they also have their own lives separate from each other (Akuma, in addition to Ryu, also has his rivalry with Gen storyline, his kill Bison storyline, and his... um, train to destroy mountain storyline, all separate from Ryu, etc), or at the very least, their own point of view on how they see the rivalry is shown. This makes Street Fighter have a storyline for nearly every character, unlike King of Fighters which generally only has a storyline for each TEAM of characters (or the main character of that team with everyone else on the team existing only to pad that character's storyline). In addition, even Fatal Fury didn't really begin concentrating on individual character storylines too much (Just look at the endings in most fatal fury games. They're mostly just joke endings or really small slice of life endings) and instead only concentrated on the main characters and no one else (This changes by Garou, though, so SNK is improving at least). It is VERY easy to present a storyline when you don't need to try to present all sides of the story, and when you stick to a select few main characters. Street Fighter, on the other hand, tries very hard to portray most sides of a story (Witness seeing the entire Doll Saga from at least three different points of view. Vega, Cammy, and Juli, and that's in just one game! Note: M. Bison seems to be the exception here. A villain who's endings are always the what-if bad ending and nothing else). Again, Garou Mark of the Wolves is an exception to this. Actually, Samurai Shodown probably is, too. And maybe nearly all of SNK's other storyline series besides King of Fighters. ...hmm. Anyways, due to this, it is very hard for people to grasp the storylineS of Street Fighter because of all the different storylines one has to keep track of. At first, this might seem like a bad thing, but in the end, I'd rather have it so I can see every character's point of view on something and realize that everyone has their own side of the story rather than just a flat good vs evil storyline. ...too bad Capcom never could really give Bison a saving grace that I can think of, though. Never ever really get to see anything in his point of view beyond "I AM EVIL AND THE GREATEST AND WILL CONQUER THE WORLD!" Ah well. Sigh, by posting this, I wonder if I'll be instilling the wrath of the King of Fighter fanboys... but so far, it seems everyone is in agreeance about the 'destiny makes for a very boring plot' thing. And it's not like I'm flaming SNK as a whole here. As stated, it just seems to be the King of Fighters storyline that could use some work. ...erm, note that I haven't really been able to take a good look at the NESTs storyline and am mostly just gauging the Orochi one here. NESTs one so far at a glance seems better than the Orochi one in terms of not blaming everything on destiny and perhaps showing more sides to the story, but I haven't been able to get that good a look at it. Anyways, erm, yea. Street Fighter's storyline has poor in-game portrayal, but once you get past that, people should be able to realize it's a good or at least 'better than most other fighting games' storyline in most respects Posted by Berias on 03:19:2002 08:44 PM: quote: Originally posted by Grenade Falcon ...But SnH doesn't come from mastering the art, I believe. As Clay said, it is centered around one's drive and focus on fighting, and negative emotions. Ryu, however, no longer cares about winning the fight at all costs and becoming the best, so the chance of SnH awakening in him again is slim. That Ryu doesn't care about being earth's #1, or having an awakening is not in dispute. "SnH" is a worldview that augments a fighting style. What is incorrect is to say that true potential is realized under the incomplete form. We've done this a many pages ago in the forum; it's not new. Posted by Siegfried on 03:19:2002 11:20 PM: The NESTS storyline isn't better. It's nowhere near as epic as the Orochi saga. It's all a mumbo jumbo of Kyo clones and rogue NESTS officers. Really, how can this organization hold together with so many rogues? First we have Kyo. He's taken in and made clones of, Kyo-1 and Kyo-2 among others. These need an activation sequence in the form of fighting potential (collected in KoF'99). They also turned a normal guy into K', an incomplete clone. He went rogue together with Maxima who has a battle suit given by NESTS. Krizalid is a more perfected clone but was terminated after KoF'99. Then they make Kula, a female K' clone who uses ice instead of fire. To watch over her are two female officers, Foxy and Diana, and the robot Candy. She's supposed to capture K'. However, Candy is killed and Kula turns on NESTS. I think Foxy and Diana join her. The boss of the game is Zero, who is using the Zero Cannon to rebel against NESTS. He blows up part of South Town before he is defeated. Then in 2001 they bring out ANOTHER Kyo clone, K9999, but this one is really freaky. He, Angel (a normal girl?), Kula and Foxy team up to find K'. Then we have the boss, Original Zero, who has ANOTHER clone of Krizalid as his striker. And finally Ignis who is boss of NESTS. And you think this story is better? Think again. Oh, and through all of this, the only ones getting any story development are the New Hero Team and Ikari Team. EDIT: I forgot that the 2000 Zero was just a clone of Original Zero. Posted by TiamatRoar on 03:20:2002 01:09 AM: I don't think saying "At a glance, it might be better, but I have yet to really take a look at it" constitutes as "Thinking it's better". I could tear apart the Orochi storyline if I wanted to ("Epic" does not make for a good story in and of itself), based on comments about stories made by professional writers and by comparing it to actual things that are story-focused and their storylines, but the truth of the matter is that, as a fighting game storyline, it's perfectly adequate. Just don't ever try to make the thing into a book because it definately won't sell on the market and other professional writers WILL laugh at it But again, that's just fine because the storyline isn't meant to be a book to sell on the market all by itself. NESTs I imagine, based on what you said, wouldn't be any better... As for that essay... eh, I have other things to do. Pondered starting one, but I got bored because it was getting redundant to hammer the whole destiny thing home again and again and I also see no reason to piss off an entire fanbase about a storyline, which, for a fighting game storyline, is perfectly adequate, anyways. That'd be like writing an essay on why someone's fanfic sucks then displaying it to the entire public. It'd be just plain mean, because fanfics are generaly written for fun, not to be the uber epitome of a good professional story. The case is very similar for a fighting game's storyline. The storyline is meant to just be an extra icing on the cake, even if it can be a very important icing in some cases. But in general, for a fighting game, all you really need is a bare-bones storyline and it'll get the job done. If you really want, you can PM me and I'll send over a quickie made-up RP dialogue of a writer talking to a producer about his storyline which should show why King of Fighters Orochi Saga, as a storyline by itself (without any of the license power or the fact that it's a storyline designed for a fighting game and not meant to stand by itself, etc), really isn't very good at all. I'll throw in a bonus NESTs extra snippet taking into account what you said too, if you really want it Please don't ask me to defend the Street Fighter storyline in comparison to King of Fighters because they are really two different types. King of Fighters is a giant epic for each of its sagas (for the most part. There are small side stories within it but they aren't very focused) while Street Fighter is more like a bunch of short stories that all take place within the same world and criss cross with each other every once in a while (again, for the most part), thus trying to compare the two in an analytical fashion would be a monumental task. Nevermind the fact that I'd have to compare the giant epic KOF storyline to EACH and every little Street Fighter short story within the series, which would just be a ridiculous pain. Furthermore, some of the short stories are deeper and more complex than others as well as longer, and some of the short stories are just plain better than others (Does King of Fighter's storyline being better than one of Street Fighter's character's story but not another's make it better or worse than the Street Fighter series as a whole? That's too much thought and analysis for me!). Posted by FINAL SHOWDOWN on 03:21:2002 12:44 AM: well i cant comment to much on the nest story line as well its gets sorta wierd and im not sure of everything in it. But i think the nest story is good when you look at it on a deeper level...(well not awsome or anything , but i dont think its bad.) Posted by sano on 03:22:2002 11:50 PM: Here's something I noticed that I've asked people in th past, but I thought should be mentioned on this thread in case anyone else has wondered the same. In SFA3, why does Ryu remember Chunli in her SF2 outfit in his ending? No matter which version of Chunli you beat SFA3 with, she winds up in her SFA outfit in her ending, leading one to beleive that this is the outfit she was actually wearing at the time. But in SFA2, her outfit varies depending on which outfit you choose. Now, since Ryu pretty much starts off SFA3 being brainwashed, I assume Ryu and Chunli met during SFA2. Could this mean that Chunli was actually wearing the SF2 outfit during SFA2? Or was she just wearing it when she met Ryu? My guess is that since this was the only time Ryu and Chunli ever officially meet, Capcom wanted her looking her best ( most people don't like her SFA costume ). Yet, I wonder if this should have been done, because the image of Ryu remembering Chunli in her SF2 outfit can lead one to beleive that SFA3 replaces SF2 and that's just not the case. Any thoughts? Posted by FistsofFury on 03:23:2002 06:56 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar If you really want, you can PM me and I'll send over a quickie made-up RP dialogue of a writer talking to a producer about his storyline which should show why King of Fighters Orochi Saga, as a storyline by itself (without any of the license power or the fact that it's a storyline designed for a fighting game and not meant to stand by itself, etc), really isn't very good at all. I'll throw in a bonus NESTs extra snippet taking into account what you said too, if you really want it I'd like to see that Posted by TiamatRoar on 03:25:2002 02:54 AM: http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...25&pagenumber=2 Just call me Mr. Masochistic. Posted by Psycho Power J on 03:25:2002 05:06 PM: I'm surprised. You haven't gotten flamed yet. Posted by Clay on 03:25:2002 05:57 PM: I don't want to get into any arguments about different stories because it really isn't worth the effort. That, and the fact that I don't want to ruin this thread by attracting hordes of anti-capomers to it. That said, I have always preferred the SF story and some of what Tiamat has posted explains why. This is an SF thread however and I'd just like to keep the KoF ripping to a minimum. I certainly don't have anything against it. Live and let live, I hope. By the way, FINAL SHOWDOWN, I love your Ryu stats thread. The Clayton Tactic owns. You sir, are my hero. -Clay Posted by Clay on 03:25:2002 06:16 PM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/sho...25&pagenumber=2 Just call me Mr. Masochistic. Well done! I too get tired of hearing people constantly rip on the SF storyline. As for the lack of flames, Tiamat hasn't given anybody any good reasons to flame him. His overall presentation was top notch. The fact that the people responding seem to be too smart to resort to that kind of thing probably helps as well. Keep it up. Golden Hell: It's been awhile! Glad to see that you're still hanging around. I'm waitin' to see this thread hit 1,000. -Clay Posted by FINAL SHOWDOWN on 03:25:2002 06:22 PM: quote: Originally posted by Clay I don't want to get into any arguments about different stories because it really isn't worth the effort. That, and the fact that I don't want to ruin this thread by attracting hordes of anti-capomers to it. That said, I have always preferred the SF story and some of what Tiamat has posted explains why. This is an SF thread however and I'd just like to keep the KoF ripping to a minimum. I certainly don't have anything against it. Live and let live, I hope. By the way, FINAL SHOWDOWN, I love your Ryu stats thread. The Clayton Tactic owns. You sir, are my hero. -Clay lol... hey thanks alot. Posted by TiamatRoar on 03:25:2002 07:29 PM: Yea... in general, I don't hate the King of Fighters storyline (there's a reason why I try to keep emphasizing that it's perfectly adequate as a fighting game storyline), but whenever I see people say stuff like "LOL!!! Since when did Street Fighter and storyline go together?" and stuff like that, I just... get ticked off. The Street Fighter storyline has an insane amount of dynamics for tons of its characters individually, even (including Ryu, who most people rip as a one-dimensional 'for-the-fight' storyline, which is really not true at all). At least, for a fighting game (and beyond, though, for many storylines, I think). So when I see people rip into it, it just... I dunno, I get annoyed or something I should stay away more from bashing KOF's storyline though while I try to present arguments on why the SF storyline is good, though. Doh. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 03:25:2002 09:21 PM: And yet the Capcom bashers are still rampant. Instead of doing research to learn more about Street Fighter, they'd rather sit back and laugh at it for it's lack of presentation and use that as a reason to stop playing it. And it's because of their bad comprehension that they think that storywise, no SF character is of any good. GameFAQs is flooded with SNK fanboys and not one non-gameplay related thread goes by where I don't see a crack about Ryu or Capcom's so-called "storyline-stupidity". Vs. topics between the two corporations now seem pointless because to the fanboys, it always falls in SNK's favor. When you say something in Capcom's defense, you get flamed to death. When you comment on one of SNK's flaws, as obvious as they should be, you get flamed to death. That's why I don't post there as much as I do here. There are more signs of intelligent life at SRK, which is a more Capcom-friendly environment. Boy, am I glad this thread was made. Posted by Clay on 03:25:2002 10:01 PM: Hey Berias, what’s up? I was waiting for you to show up again. As for your comments, I’m glad you posted. I always do enjoy these discussions. Here goes: quote: Originally posted by Berias Clay wrote: "Ryu struggles to overcome SnH because he believes that in the end, it will hinder him from realizing his true potential." Uh...that isn't stated in any of the games. it isn't even strongly implied. You have to stretch things out and add some filler to make that true. So far, the only rock solid reason we have for Ryu not using the whole of the art is that "he doesn't like it". This may be Capcomese for "we have no idea, in the meantime please buy Capcom vs Marvel 5" First of all, I would just like to say that some of my theories (especially the ones on SnH) are based on my interpretation of the games and the storylines within. Capcom doesn’t always state directly what’s going on. Sometimes you have to dig a little bit to get to the truth. I just try to do my best. I don’t want to make too big of a deal of this, so lets just remember that Capcom has had a history of changing things as they go along. Heck they could come out tomorrow (god forbid) and say: “SnH is actually an evil demon which possesses strong fighters and turns them into monsters.” Just like that, a lot of the things in this thread would be garbage (as well as the SnH storyline). I don’t think that I’ve had to “stretch” things in my theories because I have always used text from Capcom and their games to back up what I say. I just try to bring to light some of the more subtle nuances that may be missed due to misinterpretations on Cap USA’s part or vague presentation by CoJ. Any inferences made are drawn from the games and the way that Capcom portrays them. EDIT: I hope I didn’t sound angry, ‘cause I’m not. As I have mentioned before, I love talking about SF and I always like discussing things and getting to the truth. The only reason Ryu isn’t using the whole art is because he has decided that he isn’t willing to sacrifice innocent lives for his own (would be) selfish ambitions. So when he fights somebody weaker than he is, he holds back so as not to slaughter them. He has no need to send anybody to Hell either, so there’s no reason for him to use the Shun-goku-satsu. quote: Ryu seems comfortable with not being the world's best, which was agreed upon earlier in this thread. Now why all of a sudden would he decide that the diluted, incomplete form of the art would lead him to a higher potential than the meta-humans who use the complete form? there's no logic in that. It’s not that Ryu is comfortable about not being the world champion, it’s just that he doesn’t care about the title. He wants to push his own limits and his looking for challenges rather than trophies. You make it sound like Ryu is content fighting with the toned down version that he was taught when that is clearly not the case. Ryu works tirelessly to improve his techniques. His improvements and variations of the Hadou-ken and the creation of the Shin Shoryu-ken are proof of this. Gouki’s path is not the only way to follow (example: Oro) so it’s not like Ryu is stuck in a dead end, he’s just forging his own path. To me it seems obvious that the moves that Ryu has created are an improvement of Goutetsu’s Ansatsu-ken. Examples: Shin Shoryu-ken > Shoryu-ken Shinkuu Tatsumakisenpuu-kyaku > Tatsumakisenpuu-kyaku Denjin, Shinkuu, Shakunetsu Hadou-ken etc. quote: If by "true potential" you mean "makes him happiest", you may be right. but generally when you say true potential you mean the strongest you can get, and we know the the incomplete form simply isn't as powerful as the real deal, and those who use it will always be weaker. There is no reason to suppose that Ryu training for n years using the current style would be stronger than Ryu using the real thing for n years. In fact, all evidence points to just the opposite. I await your thoughts. Here I think that you misinterpreted what I said. At no point did I ever mention Ryu not using True Ansatsu-ken. I stated that Ryu without SnH could possibly be stronger than Satsui no Ryu. I never said anything about Ryu not practicing Ansatsu-ken. SnH and Ansatsuken are not one in the same, it is possible for Ryu to use true ansatsuken without SnH. Once again, you make it sound like Ryu is resting on his laurels using a dead-end style when that is simply not the case. When it comes to fighting, Ryu’s no dummy. He has a very in depth knowledge of the Ansatsuken art (including the killing techniques) and knows how to adapt, improve, or create his own style. I think that it is safe to say that Ryu’s adapted Ansatsu-ken style > Goutetsu’s original style. Sorry I took so long to respond to your post, I hope that your a little faster than me. I’m looking forward to any comments/disagreements that you (or anybody else) may/undoubtedly will have. Please post any thoughts, I’d like to continue this. -Clay On a completely different not: Tiamat: I totally sympathize with you. I just want to ensure that this stays an SF story thread and not a KoF vs. SF free-for-all. I always encourage people who are interested to check out this thread so that SF info can become a little more widespread. EDIT Ryu's adapted Ansatsu-ken vs. Goutetsu's style Perhaps I got a little ahead of myself here, especially because Goutetsu created the Shun Goku-satsu. Maybe saying that Ryu's version is at least equal to the original is a better way of putting it. I don't know, but I'm in a rush right now so I don't really have time to think about it. Later. Posted by FistsofFury on 03:26:2002 01:51 AM: I just wanted to take a little time out.......we've hit 40 pages.....what an accomplishment. I think we might be in the running for longest thread in SRK history......... Thanks to all those who asked questions, and all those with the answers. A toast. *raises glass* Posted by Grenade Falcon on 03:26:2002 01:58 AM: He has a very in depth knowledge of the Ansatsuken art (including the killing techniques) Please tell me how he knows about those techniques. Did he witness Gouki using them on somebody or did he gain that knowledge through SnH? EDIT: Hmm, hmm! Cheers! Posted by Psycho Power J on 03:26:2002 02:28 AM: Well, this isn't the longest thread in terms of number of posts, but it's certainly the longest-running thread. It may even have the most accumulated number of people viewing it. So regardless of the case, I congratulate those who made this thread possible. *toasts everyone* I also expect a speech when this thread hits 1,000. Posted by sano on 03:26:2002 06:05 PM: While I also do not want to dwell on the King of Fighters vs. Streetfighter argument and I agree with most of what Tiamatroar is saying, but I would be very happy if Capcom adopted some things from the KOF storyline even though I like the SF story better. For example, EVERY SINGLE KOF CHARACTER HAS AT LEAST A ONE PAGE BIO! Even a character like Eddie Glauber! Capcom on the other hand, has characters like Feilong and Deejay with very little or no back story whatsoever. SF3 practically removed all the Mini - Bios (Date of Birth, likes and dislikes) all together. I also like the fact that some of the KOF games have an apocolyptic feel to it, like if Kyo doesn't beat the bad guy, the world's gonna end! The closest SF got to this was in SFA3, but that's not as apocolyptic as the Orochi storyline. Oh well, Capcom did hire a lot of KOF people from SNK, so hopefully my wishes will become a reality one day! On the 10000th post, I'm down with the Speech idea! No, not from me who likes to ramble of topic, from the man who started it all! FistsoFury step up to the podium! Posted by milliardo on 03:26:2002 10:04 PM: Congratunlations... (Well... Since the replies is gonna hit 1000 sooner or later, I will just say Congratunlations first.) (I am 996th) Congratunlations! And we may also hope this post will continue in the next several decades!! I hope all of you enjoys this thread. I may not be a good Capcom Fan, yet I believe this thread not only helped many different readers, but also helped all theirselves. The more questions leads to more question. With more questions being asked, the more answer is acquired. With more answers given, the readers learns more stuffs regarding the Street Fighters. This thread is considered the best discussion location for all fans who play Street Fighters for their leisure use. Since this thread gives the fans quite a clear idea about what, who, when, where, and how the characters in the Street Fighters Series come out, how the conflicts begin, how the characters involves with others. Again, Congratunlations!! And I must also thank this thread for giving me a lot of valuable informations!! Cheers!! *Raise glass* *cheers* P.S. I hope this may be a big bother for all of you, but I hope you can come over to my thread: Marvel VS Capcom 2: New Age of SuperHeros: The Fan Fiction, and vote... I left a question on my thread, and hope you folks can come over and see my thread. Posted by FistsofFury on 03:26:2002 10:28 PM: *clears throat* ahem......... I can hardly take credit for this thread being the success that it is. I just began the thread....and let the pros take command. I created this thread as a meeting ground for those that actually cared about the storylines of Street Fighter, and it would not have been possible without all the responses and questions posed. Posters like Clay, Saki, Golden Hell, TiamatRoar, Siegfried, Berias, and so so many others. This thread has achieved more heights and covered more topics than I ever imagined......thanks guys........everyone And keep postin' dangit!! Anyone else can feel free to say some words....... *leaves podium and goes back to drinking champagne* Thanks guys......could not have done it without ya ....now if you'll excuse me......I gotta get tipsy!! Posted by Grenade Falcon on 03:27:2002 03:53 AM: Everyone, I got a VERY GOOD question about Ibuki: Was she modeled partly after Linn Kurosawa from Alien vs. Predator? 'Cuz after reading Tiamat's Plot guide again, I learned of the fact that her friend seen in SF3:NG is named Sarai Kurosawa. After reading that, I thought, "OMG! Linn and Ibuki DO look very much alike! ". Got any feedback on this? Posted by Clay on 03:27:2002 04:17 AM: Post #999 999...1000, seems kind of weird but I'm glad that this thread has stuck around for so long, I've had some of my favorite SF related discussions in here. Anyway, it's hard to find some street fighter fans so hats off to FoF on this one, I've always had a blast here. quote: Originally posted by FistsofFury *clears throat* ahem......... I can hardly take credit for this thread being the success that it is. I just began the thread....and let the pros take command. I created this thread as a meeting ground for those that actually cared about the storylines of Street Fighter, and it would not have been possible without all the responses and questions posed. Posters like Clay, Saki, Golden Hell, TiamatRoar, Siegfried, Berias, and so so many others. This thread has achieved more heights and covered more topics than I ever imagined......thanks guys........everyone And keep postin' dangit!! Anyone else can feel free to say some words....... *leaves podium and goes back to drinking champagne* Thanks guys......could not have done it without ya ....now if you'll excuse me......I gotta get tipsy!! I'll second that! We certainly have covered a lot, more than anybody ever thought possible, especially for a game that most people consider to have a nonexistent storyline. FoF: I congratulated you waaaaaay back on the first page of this thread for creating it and I'll do it again here. Thanks again, buddy! (Checks out FoF's sig) Chapter 14!!! Looks like I've got a little catching up to do! Anyway, I'll get back to my usual SF related posts tomorrow, for now I'll just head on over to FoF's fan-fic. Keep it up everybody! See ya' later. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 03:27:2002 05:28 AM: LOL. I'm on chapter 27 of my writing, myself... but... mines isn't a fanfic (online writing RPG instead) so I guess it doesn't count Cheers to 1000 posts! ...what, you was expecting something more eventful? ^_~ Fine, I may go back and edit this later. ...no, probably not. Posted by Azrael-sama on 03:27:2002 06:57 AM: Post 1001. I may have been a very small part of the thread, but I'm glad to have been here nonetheless. There sure has been great discussion on SF here, and I've learned so much. *raises glass* Cheers! GF - lol, love the sig. Very funny. Posted by Berias on 03:27:2002 09:22 AM: quote: Originally posted by TiamatRoar LOL. I'm on chapter 27 of my writing, myself... but... mines isn't a fanfic (online writing RPG instead) so I guess it doesn't count High fives to you, for being number 1000. As far as RPGs go, I can only say the Quietus is the strongest sword I know of and in "The Adventures of LoLo" for the NES if you put two shots in the River of the Underworld, you won't be able to get a password ever again or be able to kill yourself by pressing select. I hope this helps. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 03:27:2002 09:52 AM: So this exciting time is too consuming to answer more questions at the moment, eh? That's fine by me. Every post counts for something anyway. Well, thumbs up to Tiamat for being the 1000th poster. He's the one who supports Capcom the most, and does it right, in those constant Capcom bashings, so he probably deserves it the most. Glad you like the sig Azreal. Posted by Berias on 03:27:2002 09:55 AM: quote: Originally posted by Clay Hey Berias, what’s up? I was waiting for you to show up again. As for your comments, I’m glad you posted. I always do enjoy these discussions. Here goes: Welcome. quote: Originally posted by Clay First of all, I would just like to say that some of my theories (especially the ones on SnH) are based on my interpretation of the games and the storylines within. ...just remember that Capcom has had a history of changing things as they go along. Heck they could come out tomorrow (god forbid) and say: “SnH is actually an evil demon which possesses strong fighters and turns them into monsters.” Just like that, a lot of the things in this thread would be garbage (as well as the SnH storyline. That's true to some extent, but if we are not concrete in any details, then nothing is serious. For example, you could say "well Dan kicked Gill's ass in SF A2, Hugo is a time-divergent Gouken's daughter, etc etc; it could happen!" But since this is total nonsense, it is safe to assume they are not true and never will be. My point is we should use only what we currently know to be true and not be concerned about allowing for "slack" that may or may not be made by future storylines. And you didn't sound angry but I hope my original post wasn't too harsh. It probably was. quote: Originally posted by Clay You make it sound like Ryu is content fighting with the toned down version that he was taught when that is clearly not the case. Then why not use the DP that tore Sagat to shreds 15+ years ago? The one that kills in one hit? I'll elaborate more on this in a second. quote: Originally posted by Clay Ryu works tirelessly to improve his techniques. His improvements and variations of the Hadou-ken and the creation of the Shin Shoryu-ken are proof of this. But they aren't improvements. They're *weaker*. Do you remember when Saiki said, way back in the thread, the moves in the original art killed in a single blow? The four signatures?Gouken didn't like this and changed it. That's what was taught to his students. Ryu's Shinsho is WEAKER than a Gou Shoryuken. quote: Originally posted by Clay Gouki’s path is not the only way to follow (example: Oro) so it’s not like Ryu is stuck in a dead end, he’s just forging his own path. To me it seems obvious that the moves that Ryu has created are an improvement of Goutetsu’s Ansatsu-ken. Examples: Shin Shoryu-ken > Shoryu-ken Shinkuu Tatsumakisenpuu-kyaku > Tatsumakisenpuu-kyaku Denjin, Shinkuu, Shakunetsu Hadou-ken etc. Here is why that cannot be true. Youg, inexperienced Ryu takes on Sagat, a total freak, in SF1 and is losing badly. Then all of a sudden he knocks the hell out of Sagat with *one uppercut*. Sagat is down from one hit and his body has a huge scar. If he was weaker he would have died. Years later, Ryu doesn't use that style, and develops the Shinshoryuken. However, Saiki said (Officially, remember) he used it on Hugo in SF3 and Hugo, certainly NOT at Sagat's SF1 level, was not even knocked out! Ryu's old uppercut as a young boy under the true art tore a monster of a man to shreds in one hit, sending him to within an inch of his life and scarring him for life. Older, wiser Ryu's shinsho cannot even KO an overgrown WWF knock off. Note: I should point out that the Shinsho is stronger than the toned down version of the rising dragon, the Shoryuken, but it is weaker than the Gou Shoryuken, that is to say, the original. quote: Originally posted by Clay Here I think that you misinterpreted what I said. At no point did I ever mention Ryu not using True Ansatsu-ken. I stated that Ryu without SnH could possibly be stronger than Satsui no Ryu. I never said anything about Ryu not practicing Ansatsu-ken. But that's what this is all about, isn't it? True ansatsuken kills in one move. The Shinku Hadoken, Shin Shoryuken, etc are not part of the true art. They do not kill in one hit. That's the whole reason Gouken changed everything. Ryu doesn't use the style in its totality. quote: Originally posted by Clay SnH and Ansatsuken are not one in the same, it is possible for Ryu to use true ansatsuken without SnH. Maybe, if Goutetsu was not "under" SnH. But I am arguing that Ryu does not use true ansatsuken, which was stated by Saiki way back in the early days of this thread. quote: Originally posted by Clay Once again, you make it sound like Ryu is resting on his laurels using a dead-end style when that is simply not the case. When it comes to fighting, Ryu’s no dummy. He has a very in depth knowledge of the Ansatsuken art (including the killing techniques) and knows how to adapt, improve, or create his own style. I think that it is safe to say that Ryu’s adapted Ansatsu-ken style > Goutetsu’s original style. That can't be true, in light of the Hugo/Sagat example, or the growth rates between Ryu and Gouki, or even in game dialogue. quote: Originally posted by Clay I’m looking forward to any comments/disagreements that you (or anybody else) may/undoubtedly will have. Please post any thoughts, I’d like to continue this. -Clay This is the best one in a long time. Even better than the "Human Torch vs Iceman" debate. Wait, that never happened. quote: Originally posted by Clay Ryu's adapted Ansatsu-ken vs. Goutetsu's style Perhaps I got a little ahead of myself here, especially because Goutetsu created the Shun Goku-satsu. Maybe saying that Ryu's version is at least equal to the original is a better way of putting it. I don't know, but I'm in a rush right now so I don't really have time to think about it. Later. Go back and check the earliest posts. Saiki said the version Gouken made and taught to Ryu and Ken is not nearly as strong as the original. And remember the Hugo/Sagat comparison! Looking forward to your reply Posted by Golden Hell on 03:27:2002 01:46 PM: Well, looks like I was a bit late for this historic event, but congrats to everyone on this thread. Big thanks to everyone who came in to ask questions, and even bigger thanks to all those who answered. Hope to see everyone when this thread reaches 2000! Now just a quick and pretty lame question regarding the Slammasters series. I've never played Ring of Destruction, so is there a story behind it? From what I've gathered, CWA (i think thats the name of the Slammasters' federation) is invaded by a rival group. And was Scorpion/Astro part of this invading group? I have All About Capcom but alas cannot read it. And to Saiki - were you able to buy those other All About books? I remember you were planning to get the Darkstalkers one. And thanks for the welcome back, Clay! Posted by Clay on 03:27:2002 05:38 PM: quote: Originally posted by Grenade Falcon He has a very in depth knowledge of the Ansatsuken art (including the killing techniques) Please tell me how he knows about those techniques. Did he witness Gouki using them on somebody or did he gain that knowledge through SnH? EDIT: Hmm, hmm! Cheers! It seems that it is most likely that Ryu figured these out throught intense training, though it is possible that he has observed the moves, I have never seen any info saying so. Ryu spends his whole life improving his fighting style so he probably discovered them while trying to improve his techniques. SnH wouldn't give him the necessary information, but it does change the way he thinks, and could help in the development of these moves (especially in battle-type situations). -Clay Posted by Clay on 03:27:2002 09:21 PM: Warning: Long post ahead Edit: I didn't mean to keep on rambling, but once I started, it was hard to stop. I hope I didn't go too far on this one. Berias: Excellent response! That’s exactly the type of thing that I was looking for. Having people pick apart my posts helps me delve deeper into the subject. Anyway, I feel I must apologize for my initial response because (as was previously mentioned) it was quite rushed and felt way more cluttered than my usual posts. I feel that I wasn’t able express what was in my mind clearly enough. However, I didn’t want you to think that I was ignoring your post so I responded anyway. I guess that’s what happens when you’re busy. Anyway, I’ll do better on my next one. quote: That's true to some extent, but if we are not concrete in any details, then nothing is serious. For example, you could say "well Dan kicked Gill's ass in SF A2, Hugo is a time-divergent Gouken's daughter, etc etc; it could happen!" But since this is total nonsense, it is safe to assume they are not true and never will be. Thank you, I won’t worry about it then. Sometimes, when you (not you directly, just in a general sense, any person) scrutinize things sooo much, it’s hard not to let this come up, but I won’t give it a second thought then. quote: And you didn't sound angry but I hope my original post wasn't too harsh. It probably was. Nah, don’t worry about it. Edit: This is where this becomes one helluva complicated post. Now here’s where this gets really complicated. I feel like we have broken off into two separate discussions here. One that I completely disagree with you on and the other that I do agree with you on, both that I would like to discuss in depth. To me, the original topic was whether Ryu was better off with or without Satsui no Hadou. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but as I recall my original statement was: "Ryu struggles to overcome SnH because he believes that in the end, it will hinder him from realizing his true potential." Your counter was that Ryu would be weaker without it (and true ansatsuken, but that is not relevant to my original statement). Question: So is Ryu better off without SnH? Answer: Yes. My thoughts: Ryu values life and does not wish to kill. It’s part of who he is. Unfortunately, Satsui no Hadou’s very foundation is built on killing. Now if Ryu was to embrace SnH, it seems likely that, at one point or another, his desires may conflict with his values. Ryu (and SF in general) stresses that only a warrior who is in perfect control and balance with not only their physical body, but their mental state as well, will be able to reach their full potential. If there is any doubt (conflict, hesitation, etc…) in his mind at all then Ryu will not reach his full potential. He may become very powerful with SnH, but he has the ability to become more than that. Now on the other hand, if Ryu rejects SnH, then he is at peace with himself and he may open himself up to learning new techniques or meeting new people that can benefit him. More importantly, he has a much better chance of attaining that zen-like mindset that makes fighters like him (or Sagat) so great. It seems to me that as much as Ryu could try to bury his more virtuous side, it would come back to haunt him. In the end, it would probably be the cause of his death. Even if Ryu was able to totally devote himself to SnH (or if you just want to ignore the above paragraph) I have another observation… One of Ryu’s key attributes and strengths is his eternal fighting spirit, the desire to constantly push oneself, to always look for the next challenge, and to face and overcome any obstacle no matter how difficult. One thing I noticed is that Ryu’s spirit draws directly from life, or the joy of being alive, not death. Numerous quotes from Ryu show just how much he loves life. The kindness he shows towards others, the friends that he has made along the way, the excitement he feels when faced with a new challenge, the rush of the battle, and the very feeling of being alive all motivate and give him strength. If Ryu were to turn to SnH then he would be losing one of his major strengths. Faced with this, how can you honestly say that SnH is the only way for Ryu to reach his full potential? SnH deprives Ryu of his humanity, the very essence of his strength; it actually LOWERS his overall potential. He loses that extra something that gives him that extra push, part of what gives him immense potential to begin with. I’m not saying that SnH is not without its benefits, but for Ryu it is too limiting. Even though it fits Gouki’s beliefs and desires,and is seemingly what he wants, I wonder if even he would be better off without it. He lives to fight, and likewise fights to live, but instead of mastering Satsui no Hadou, I wonder if he has become a slave to it instead. A person who succumbs to SnH seems to lose their humanity. They become beasts, lacking any sense of emotion or spiritual existence (soul?). Their life becomes focused on fighting, killing, and finding somebody who will kill them. Is this what you think Ryu’s true potential is? To search the world for a being that will be able to put him out of his misery? There’s more to life than just death. Follow up: If Ryu rejects Satsui no Hadou then how will he ever become as strong as Gouki? My thoughts: There are no definite answers at this time, but I do have a few ideas… There are many different paths that are traveled by many different people in life. The path that I choose is probably (most likely) not the correct path for my brother(s), father, mother, friends, or anyone else to follow. Staying consistent with that thought, the path that Gouki chose to attain great power (SnH) is not necessarily the only path that is open to Ryu. As I stated before, Ryu continues train himself will find his own path. The proof of this is the fact that there are currently two other characters who have reached the same god-like status as Gouki (Oro and Gill). Heck for all we know, Gouki may be the weakest of the three (unlikely). Now, last time I checked, neither Oro nor Gill used Satsui no Hadou to reside in the same “tier” as Gouki, so who’s to say that Ryu must use SnH to do so. I don’t understand why people would say that SnH is necessary when the proof shows that it clearly is not. If I’m allowed to speculate: Doesn’t anybody else think that there is the slightest chance that Ryu may take up Oro’s Senjitsu or at the very least, apply it to his current fighting style? I’m not going to harp on the issue since this post has gone on long enough, but it is a very viable option. Aside from Oro’s somewhat comical attitude and appearance the two are fairly similar. Considering the fact that Ryu already lives the same type of lifestyle, I believe that he would be up to the challenge as well. But enough on that, I think it’s time I let this post end. Please feel free to respond if necessary whether in agreement or disagreement. In retrospect, this is what my answer to your original question would have been if I had had the presence of mind to not rush it. Anyway, I’ll get to the second discussion later. I’m done for now. As always I am eagerly awaiting any replies/responses. -Clay PS There are multiple discussions that can be pulled out of this post. The main/original arguement deals with Ryu and SnH. I would like to finish this subject before I branch into other ones so I will not be overwhelmed. Other discussions pertaining to this (and Berias') post that I would like to get into in the future include: Gouki and SnH Ryu and Oro Ansatsu-ken I'll try to get to each of them as quickly as possible. See ya' later. Oh and Saiki, if your out there, feel free to drop on by. It's been too long!! Posted by TiamatRoar on 03:27:2002 09:35 PM: From what I found on FAQs for the game at Gamefaqs, Slammasters 2 is basically another round of wrestling, except this time, the "Blood Wrestling League" is joining in to fight the Capcom Wrestling League. All the bosses of the game (including Scorpion and Jumbo Flap Jack) are members of the Blood Wrestling League and not the Capcom Wrestling League. The Plot Guide's been updated with that info, but I only sent the updated version to gamefaqs and fightermania yesterday Posted by FistsofFury on 03:27:2002 09:47 PM: About the Ryu/Oro thing: I really do see Ryu learning a lot from Oro in the future. Ryu....IMHO is carving a path for himself by choosing not to use Ansatsu-ken moves.....taking a path that is less traveled....and most likely harder. He will need help with his journey, and Oro can help him. I can really picture Ryu locking himself away with Oro for a couple months to train, and then emerging stronger than he has ever been. Posted by Siegfried on 03:27:2002 10:55 PM: Nothing to say really, just congrats to us all for 1000 posts. As for the FAQ, I'll be a little busy reinstalling my computer this weekend and then with school, but I'll try to update Fighter Mania. Posted by Berias on 03:28:2002 05:45 AM: quote: Originally posted by Clay Having people pick apart my posts helps me delve deeper into the subject. Anyway, I feel I must apologize for my initial response because (as was previously mentioned) it was quite rushed and felt way more cluttered than my usual posts. I realize some people don't like it when you use their original posts to make a point-by point presentation of your position. Just so you understand it helps me get my point across, and I'm not trying to be an ass. quote: Originally posted by Clay I feel that I wasn’t able express what was in my mind clearly enough. However, I didn’t want you to think that I was ignoring your post so I responded anyway. The way you're talking about your post you'd think it sucked. It didn't, it was a great reply. quote: Originally posted by Clay Edit: This is where this becomes one helluva complicated post. *puts on "Heavy Dialogue" boots.* quote: Originally posted by Clay To me, the original topic was whether Ryu was better off with or without Satsui no Hadou. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but as I recall my original statement was: "Ryu struggles to overcome SnH because he believes that in the end, it will hinder him from realizing his true potential." Your counter was that Ryu would be weaker without it (and true ansatsuken, but that is not relevant to my original statement). I'm missing something here. SnH has little to do with my argument. It had something to do with the outburst against Sagat, but are you of the position "you can only use true ansatsu-ken if you are covered by SnH?" I ask this because we never hear about SnH Gouki or SnH Goutetsu. More on this in a second. quote: Originally posted by Clay Q So is Ryu better off without SnH? A Yes. My thoughts: Ryu values life and does not wish to kill...He may become very powerful with SnH, but he has the ability to become more than that. You seem to be talking about strength of character, and how it relates to one's fighting ability. I'm thinking only of brute force in terms of fighting ability. Ryu dropped Sagat, who was supposed to be stronger than him, in 1 hit. Years later, without that style, he can't even KO someone who isn't as strong as Sagat. That's what I mean when I say "Not as strong as..." because Ryu may be happier and more at peace with himself, since SnH is "not right for him" so to speak. In terms of fighting ability alone, he simply was more powerful than he is now. Or at least would be stronger than he is now. quote: Originally posted by Clay One of Ryu’s key attributes and strengths is his eternal fighting spirit, the desire to constantly push oneself, to always look for the next challenge, and to face and overcome any obstacle no matter how difficult. One thing I noticed is that Ryu’s spirit draws directly from life, or the joy of being alive, not death. ...Faced with this, how can you honestly say that SnH is the only way for Ryu to reach his full potential? Remember the Sagat/Hugo thing, remember Gouki's exhortation to him. quote: Originally posted by Clay SnH deprives Ryu of his humanity, the very essence of his strength; it actually LOWERS his overall potential. I don't see how you can say this when he was clearly stronger before. It doesn't matter if he is the most mentally fulfilled person who ever lived, if he gets in a fight with someone stronger, he will lose. I take SnH as Ryu recieveing that extra push you mentioned and not ignoring it. quote: Originally posted by Clay I’m not saying that SnH is not without its benefits, but for Ryu it is too limiting. Even though it fits Gouki’s beliefs ...I wonder if even he would be better off without it. He lives to fight, and likewise fights to live, but instead of mastering Satsui no Hadou, I wonder if he has become a slave to it instead. I get the impression Gouki's whole deal is about Ansatsuken and not about becoming controlled. Ryu under SnH is always wild and out of control. On the other hand, Gouki is always saying things like "MY killing intent" and "MY murderous abilities", which you wouldn't expect if he were its slave. On the contrary, in his endings, look how happy he is when he completes a new move. Or listen to his 2i ending speech. Do those sound like the thoughts of an oppressed, burdened man? As far as becoming a beast or losing emotion, I can only submit Gouki saving that kid's life in the Alpha series. I think Ryu's true potential (or anyone's) means they become as strong as possible. Now you can stop me here with "Ryu chose to reject True Ansatsuken, he knows himself better than you" which is true, but he could just be ignoring facts. quote: Originally posted by Clay ...Is this what you think Ryu’s true potential is? To search the world for a being that will be able to put him out of his misery? There’s more to life than just death. I doubt Goutetsu, Gouki, and Gouken were in misery, and I doubt Gouki's miserable now. He seemed to be looking for a challenge in the Alpha series, but I think that's changed a bit now. I wanted to ask you, what do you think of Gouki vs Ryu stage 9 in 3s? They have no dialogue. In the past Gouki would say "My way is better, use it..." Ryu would respond "I don't need your stuff..." Now in the 3s fight i got the impression Gouki (who the player would be controling) is of the attitude "Ok, ok, ok, let's just get it over with". I think he's losing/lost intrest in Ryu as a candidate. quote: Originally posted by Clay Follow up: If Ryu rejects Satsui no Hadou then how will he ever become as strong as Gouki? My thoughts: There are no definite answers at this time, but I do have a few ideas? There are many different paths that are traveled by many different people in life...the path that Gouki chose to attain great power (SnH) is not necessarily the only path that is open to Ryu. Not the only path by any means, I just think it's the strongest. Look at the gap in power between Gouki and Ryu. It isn't staying the same or getting smaller. It's increasing. quote: Originally posted by Clay The proof of this is the fact that there are currently two other characters who have reached the same god-like status as Gouki (Oro and Gill). Heck for all we know, Gouki may be the weakest of the three (unlikely).Now, last time I checked, neither Oro nor Gill used Satsui no Hadou to reside in the same “tier?as Gouki, so who’s to say that Ryu must use SnH to do so. It's possible. He wasn't the strongest character in EX. Gill's 3s ending even has Gouki (and Q!) looking at his paradise for the earth. But there are a lot of contradicitions between Oro, Gill, and Gouki. That would be great to discuss. I was thinking Gouki was more about Ansatsuken and not so much SnH, but I get your point. I didn't say it's the only way, I just think Ryu would be a better fighter if he used Gouken's original art compared to what he's using now, which he does not. quote: Originally posted by Clay ... Doesn’t anybody else think that there is the slightest chance that Ryu may take up Oro’s Senjitsu or at the very least, apply it to his current fighting style? I’m not going to harp on the issue since this post has gone on long enough, but it is a very viable option. Aside from Oro’s somewhat comical attitude and appearance the two are fairly similar. I wanted to discuss this with you especially since I saw Oro's 2i ending, a bit disturbed by what he said. But I'll save that for another thread. Should we also clear up ansatsuken (a style) from SnH (a worldview)? EDIT: Grammar Posted by Clay on 03:28:2002 10:27 AM: quote: Originally posted by Berias I realize some people don't like it when you use their original posts to make a point-by point presentation of your position. Just so you understand it helps me get my point across, and I'm not trying to be an ass. No problem here, I do it sometimes as well. I meant it though, it helps me see whether I am wording things correctly and if I need to dig a little deeper into a subject to get it out of my head and into the post. Sometimes it’s hard to describe on paper exactly what I’m thinking in my head. quote: I'm missing something here. SnH has little to do with my argument. It had something to do with the outburst against Sagat, but are you of the position "you can only use true ansatsu-ken if you are covered by SnH?" I ask this because we never hear about SnH Gouki or SnH Goutetsu. More on this in a second. Okay, this is exactly what I’m talking about. In my last post I said that we had gotten into two different arguments. There is a reason why I never mentioned Ansatsu-ken in my last post at all. My original quote dealt only with SnH. I only want to clear up the SnH situation before I even mention Ansatsu-ken. While the two can go hand in hand, SnH is not required to use True Ansatsu-ken. So to answer your question, I am definitely not of that position. There’s a reason why you never hear of SnH Goutetsu… I’ll get back to that later. quote: I don't see how you can say this when he was clearly stronger before. It doesn't matter if he is the most mentally fulfilled person who ever lived, if he gets in a fight with someone stronger, he will lose. I take SnH as Ryu recieveing that extra push you mentioned and not ignoring it. What your talking about here, though, is Ansatsu-ken, not SnH. It was the fact that it was a true Ansatsu-ken DP that made it so powerful, not SnH. The importance of SnH here is that it influenced him into using it. quote: You seem to be talking about strength of character, and how it relates to one's fighting ability. I'm thinking only of brute force in terms of fighting ability. Ryu dropped Sagat, who was supposed to be stronger than him, in 1 hit. Years later, without that style, he can't even KO someone who isn't as strong as Sagat. That's what I mean when I say "Not as strong as..." because Ryu may be happier and more at peace with himself, since SnH is "not right for him" so to speak. ...Snip... I don't see how you can say this when he was clearly stronger before. It doesn't matter if he is the most mentally fulfilled person who ever lived, if he gets in a fight with someone stronger, he will lose. I take SnH as Ryu recieveing that extra push you mentioned and not ignoring it. I stand behind what I said before. Satsui no Hadou does in fact lower Ryu’s potential. The push that you’re talking about is from True Ansatsu-ken, once again totally unrelated to Satsui no Hadou. Now here’s where I’ll make the distinction between the two. Previously I stated: “I feel like we have broken off into two separate discussions here. One that I completely disagree with you on and the other that I do agree with you on, both that I would like to discuss in depth.” The first discussion (based off of my original quote) is based on Ryu being stronger with out Satsui no Hadou. I never mentioned Ansatsu-ken, that was only brought up later. Answer: Ryu (without SnH) has a greater potential than Satsui no Hadou ni Mezameta Ryu (reasonings based off of my previous post). The second discussion was mentioned in your response and that is whether Ryu is stronger or not with True Ansatsu-ken. This is the other discussion that I mentioned that I do completely agree upon with you. I think that it is safe to say that both you and I would state that Ryu using True Ansatsu-ken is far stronger than Ryu with the non-lethal variation. Here's what I'm saying, for future reference: Ryu > SnH Ryu (proof necessary, see below) Ryu + T. Ansatsuken > Ryu + non lethal style (not disputed) Where this gets all muddled up is that somebody would say that since SnH Ryu uses true ansatsuken and Ryu (sans SnH) does not, that should make SnH Ryu way more powerful than Ryu (without SnH). After making that statement the next logical step for this person would be to say that since SnH Ryu is stronger, then he must have more potential, right? After figuring this out this person would then come to the logical conclusion that Ryu is stronger with Satsui no Hadou and I’m just an idiot who doesn’t know what I’m talking about. Regardless of whether I'm an idiot or not, does that mean that what I just posted about Ryu being stronger without SnH is wrong? Yes and no. The flaw in the logic of the previous paragraph was that they failed to view the whole picture and only focused on the very short-term. SnH Ryu is stronger than Ryu in the heat of the moment (and in a brute force sort of way like you mentioned), but over time, he actually ends up capping or limiting his total ability if he follows SnH. Follow me with this: In the past: SnH Ryu > Ryu Why: SnH Ryu uses true ansatsuken which makes him far more powerful and deadly. Any weaknesses that he may posses mentally are not readily apparent or are very minor and are more than made up by his overpowering strength. Here’s the catch: While SnH Ryu immediately becomes a better fighter, I have already mentioned that Ryu loses a part of himself, and with that, his true potential. Remember: (without SnH) Ryu’s fighting spirit, mindset, potential etc… > than that of SnH Ryu With this in mind, lets say that Ryu turns his back on SnH and True Ansatsu-ken. Ryu fights the SnH and learns to control himself and regain his mental stability. In doing so he also preserves his humanity and everything that contributes towards his incredible potential. While he was enduring his struggle he decided to use the non lethal form of Ansatsuken that Gouken created. The True Ansatsu-ken art would have been too powerful and his use of it would most likely cause Ryu to feel the effects of SnH, consequently losing the very battle that he was so determined to win. True Ansatsu-ken would have proved to have been too much of temptation at such an important time and was not necessary for Ryu continue his training. The true test of Ryu’s mastery of his art will come when he is able to use True Ansatsuken without Satsui no Hadou. Both Goutetsu and Gouken had learned to do this (remember, I’ll come back to this later) and it would be the next step for Ryu. Since Ryu’s potential > SnH Ryu’s potential… And Ryu’s fighting ability w/ True Ansatsu-ken > Ryu’s fighting ability w/ Gouken’s Ansatsuken Then Ryu with True Ansatsu-ken > SnH Ryu with True Ansatsu-ken I hope that made some sense. This is why Ryu is stronger without SnH. It’s a longer and more difficult road, but in the end the reward is well worth it. quote: In terms of fighting ability alone, he simply was more powerful than he is now. Or at least would be stronger than he is now. True, but only in the very near-sighted and short-term sense. By investing more time and learning to control not only his art but himself as well, Ryu becomes far more than he could have ever have been had he used SnH and True Ansatsu-ken from the get-go. Even if their raw fighting abilities were to be of about equal level, Ryu without SnH has the advantage with a more balanced mindset (as well as greater potential). If you’re of the mindset that Ryu with SnH would have had more time to practice and master Ansatsuken, thereby making him stronger, then just hold that thought. Even though Ryu wasn’t using True Ansatsu-ken during this time period, he was still constantly training (much like SnH Ryu would have been) and developed a few new moves of his own (Shin Shoryu-ken comes to mind). Now don’t you think that the same techniques that make True Ansatsuken so deadly (techniques that Ryu has knowledge of) can be applied to the new variations that he has created? This elevates his so-called weaker style into (roughly) the same league as True Ansatsu-ken (although not as powerful as Gouki’s enhanced style yet). The various forms of Hadou that he created become much more dangerous and the Shin Sho would have to be considered the strongest DP-type technique. Earlier we both mentioned Ryu getting an extra push, a boost in power (so to speak); however, we both mentioned this “push” as coming from different sources. The catch is that while SnH Ryu gets a boost from using True Ansatsu-ken (the push that you mentioned), Ryu (without SnH) can get this same increase, as well as an added push (for lack of a better word) when the going gets rough from his “eternal fighting spirit” (as I referred to it in my previous post). This post is just about as long as the previous one so I’m going to take a break and continue it in my next post. Later. -Clay Posted by Clay on 03:28:2002 12:12 PM: Some random thoughts continued from the previous post (these things are getting waaaaay to long for my own good)… quote: Should we also clear up ansatsuken (a style) from SnH (a worldview)? Exactly. This is why I haven’t mentioned the two in tangent with each other recently. I wanted to set a firm foundation that there is a difference between the two. It is possible to practice Ansatsu-ken without SnH. This relates directly to Goutetsu and Gouken which I will mention later (I know I keep saying that, but I will eventually get to it). A lot of people are under the impression that SnH gives Ryu some huge power boost. Comments like “a SnH powered DP” or “Ryu went SnH and became more powerful” simply are not true. SnH does not directly increase Ryu’s fighting ability. Satsui no Hadou actually doesn’t give Ryu any power at all, the only thing that changes is that Ryu seemingly becomes a different person, much more aggressive and willing to win at any cost. It’s actually Ryu’s choice to use the True Ansatsu-ken techniques that make him more powerful. In this sense, SnH is only indirectly related to Ryu’s increased fighting ability. Because the two are so heavily intertwined, it can be hard to separate the two. Just try to remember that SnH is a mental/spiritual condition (it can manifest itself as ki), while Ansatsu-ken is the style that is used and source of the physical power. quote: I doubt Goutetsu, Gouki, and Gouken were in misery, and I doubt Gouki's miserable now. He seemed to be looking for a challenge in the Alpha series, but I think that's changed a bit now. Goutetsu and Gouken weren’t in misery, mainly because they had mastered the art without SnH. They were in full control of themselves. In fact, Gouken’s symbol, mu, meant nothingness, which represents nothingness, showing the control he had over his emotions (think Gen, I know Saiki mentioned it a long time ago). As for Gouki, he definitely underwent SnH, but he seems to have handled it a lot differently than Ryu. Gouki put all of his stock into fighting and becoming the strongest so maybe he was able to adjust to and manage SnH better than other people. I’m sure it wasn’t easy, but like I said before, different paths for different people. This is what Gouki must have wanted. quote: I get the impression Gouki's whole deal is about Ansatsuken and not about becoming controlled. Ryu under SnH is always wild and out of control. On the other hand, Gouki is always saying things like "MY killing intent" and "MY murderous abilities", which you wouldn't expect if he were its slave. On the contrary, in his endings, look how happy he is when he completes a new move. Or listen to his 2i ending speech. Do those sound like the thoughts of an oppressed, burdened man? As far as becoming a beast or losing emotion, I can only submit Gouki saving that kid's life in the Alpha series. Alright, my mistake; I didn’t intend for that to be taken so literally. What I was pondering was whether Gouki was ever like Ryu and had any morals. By being a “slave to SnH” I was alluding to the possibility that because Gouki believes in the killing intent, he has had to forgo everything else in his life just to satiate his desires. He would be a slave in the sense that he has devoted so much of his life to SnH, that he actually lacks the freedom to not be a part of it. He would actually be locked in a cycle of kill and then be killed, with no actual meaning or form of purpose to his life. It was just a passing thought, not to be taken seriously, that somehow worked its way into my paragraph. Anyway, it’s far more likely that his personal philosophy and SnH are one in the same, which would explain how he handles it so well (compared to Ryu). Also, Gouki’s helping of the kid does show some placement of innocence or value to human life, but he’s far too liberal with his definitions to show any sign of regret over loss of life. Apparently, if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, then you’re screwed. Gouki didn’t have to kill the sub and boat full of people (3s) but he did simply because he didn’t think that they were important enough to spare. That type of callous behavior is what I’m referring to when I say that he is very bestial or inhumane. quote: I wanted to ask you, what do you think of Gouki vs Ryu stage 9 in 3s? They have no dialogue. In the past Gouki would say "My way is better, use it..." Ryu would respond "I don't need your stuff..." Now in the 3s fight i got the impression Gouki (who the player would be controling) is of the attitude "Ok, ok, ok, let's just get it over with". I think he's losing/lost intrest in Ryu as a candidate. I wanted to discuss this with you especially since I saw Oro's 2i ending, a bit disturbed by what he said. But I'll save that for another thread. I just assumed that the reason for the lack of dialogue was to show that the two didn’t actually fight each other, and if they did, that it was just a sparring match. I don’t think that Capcom would want to have them say something, only to have it repeated or changed in the future. I know that this hasn’t stopped them before, so I don’t really know. Do you think that Gouki has lost interest in Ryu as a candidate for a death match or a candidate for SnH? Oro said in another 15 years he might be ready (not for Gouki, but to get somewhere close to that level). I still think that Ryu is one of the few possible opponents that Gouki could consider to be the one. As for Oro, I remember his 2i ending, but I don’t recall the exact dialogue. I look it up and get back to you on that. I have to cut this one short as well, I’m just too tired. There’s still more that I want to get to so I’ll try and stop by over the weekend. I’ll be back later, but for now, I have to get some sleep (Yawn). -Clay Posted by sano on 03:28:2002 06:00 PM: Grenade Falcon - Great observation noticing Sarai Kurosawa! Your theory sounds good to me! It is also obvious that the character Simone from Cannon Spike was based on Lynn Kurosawa as well. (Just compare their outfits and the fact that they both weild swords.) She is the only so-called original character you can control in the game -even Shiva is from another Capcom game (Can't recall the name though.) so I spent time trying to find out what game Simone was derived from and when I saw Lynn Kurosawa's picture in the Capcom Illustrations Book it all came together. Difference being that Simone is of African decent and I guess Lynn is Japanese. Simone is a Cyborg and if you beat the game with her, it is revealed that the scientists who created her want to brainwash her completely and send her on a mission. She escapes of course, but I wonder. Is Lynn a Cyborg? If she is, then the makers of Cannon Spike, Psycho are implying that she may have gotten brainwashed, had a new skin grafted to her and sent on another mission, Alien vs. Predator possibly or another adventure because I think the Alien storyline takes place further into the future then Cannon Spyke and she'd just be kept on ice for a while which you can also see in Simone's ending before she escapes. I wonder if the Aliens/Predator people own Lynn and that's why she has not appeared in any other Capcom games. This may have been Psycho's way to shout her out without paying royalties. Of course, Cannon Spyke is not official, but I'll take what I can get. The only other time that I've seen Lynn appear in a format completely unrelated to Aliens vs. Predator - In the Capcom Illustrations Book there is a drawing of almost every Capcom female that I mentioned earlier on this thread. You can kind of see Lynn's bottom pant leg and boot in the bottom corner. Not having appear fully with the rest of the girls (Once again, no Poison) further makes me think that Capcom does not own all the rights to her. Wow, was that long and off topic! Sorry. Happy 1000th! Posted by Smiley on 03:28:2002 08:30 PM: ok.. so what exactly IS oro? i'm sorry, but i really don't wanna search 1000 posts for an answer... Posted by Grenade Falcon on 03:28:2002 08:40 PM: quote: Originally posted by sano Grenade Falcon - Great observation noticing Sarai Kurosawa! Your theory sounds good to me! It is also obvious that the character Simone from Cannon Spike was based on Lynn Kurosawa as well. (Just compare their outfits and the fact that they both weild swords.) True. quote: She is the only so-called original character you can control in the game -even Shiva is from another Capcom game (Can't recall the name though.) so I spent time trying to find out what game Simone was derived from and when I saw Lynn Kurosawa's picture in the Capcom Illustrations Book it all came together. Difference being that Simone is of African decent and I guess Lynn is Japanese. Simone is a Cyborg and if you beat the game with her, it is revealed that the scientists who created her want to brainwash her completely and send her on a mission. She escapes of course, but I wonder. Is Lynn a Cyborg? If she is, then the makers of Cannon Spike, Psycho are implying that she may have gotten brainwashed, had a new skin grafted to her and sent on another mission, Alien vs. Predator possibly or another adventure because I think the Alien storyline takes place further into the future then Cannon Spyke and she'd just be kept on ice for a while which you can also see in Simone's ending before she escapes. Yes, Linn is also a cyborg, but there is no relation between Cannon Spike and Alien vs. Predator. quote: I wonder if the Aliens/Predator people own Lynn and that's why she has not appeared in any other Capcom games. This may have been Psycho's way to shout her out without paying royalties. Of course, Cannon Spyke is not official, but I'll take what I can get. The only other time that I've seen Lynn appear in a format completely unrelated to Aliens vs. Predator - In the Capcom Illustrations Book there is a drawing of almost every Capcom female that I mentioned earlier on this thread. You can kind of see Lynn's bottom pant leg and boot in the bottom corner. Not having appear fully with the rest of the girls (Once again, no Poison) further makes me think that Capcom does not own all the rights to her. While Capcom technically does own Linn because they created her, she was designed specifically for Alien vs. Predator only, as part of the licensing agreement with Fox. They are allowed to use her in cameo appearances and artwork, but nothing that would include her being a playable character unless the project is being designed under the Alien vs. Predator license. Her background was directly inspired by the Alien/Predator storylines, and her character just wouldn't be the same if her in-game appearance didn't involve killing Aliens, teaming up with Predators, etc. I've always wanted to see Linn make a comeback in a fighting game, but it won't happen anytime soon. Damn, she's such a cool character. Posted by Berias on 03:28:2002 09:53 PM: First I'd like to apologize for causing confusion. It seems a lot of it is from my switching the definitions for Ansatsuken ad SnH without notice. quote: Originally posted by Clay While the two can go hand in hand, SnH is not required to use True Ansatsu-ken. So to answer your question, I am definitely not of that position. There’s a reason why you never hear of SnH Goutetsu… I’ll get back to that later. That's just my point. We have never heard of SnH Gouki either. There is no evidence that he went through what Ryu did. I thin SnH is the only way Ryu knows how to acess the real ansatsuken techniques, since he wasn't taught them. It demonstrates his lack of control over the power. quote: Originally posted by Clay What your talking about here, though, is Ansatsu-ken, not SnH. It was the fact that it was a true Ansatsu-ken DP that made it so powerful, not SnH. The importance of SnH here is that it influenced him into using it. that he used SnH is not in dispute. That it was a real TAken technique is somewhat hazy but suppose it is. Now the only way he could have used that was to fall into SnH (suppose). Here is why Ryu will not come upon using the True ansatsuken techniques. As you know, Gouken HATED the killing part of the art and changed (from the point of view of some, perverted) it. Now, Ryu HATES the killing art as well, since he rejects the thing that leads him to some knowledge of it. There is no reason to suppose that by ignoring the *fundamental* aspect of AK (remember, it means killing fist) Ryu will figure out a way to use the complete art. This is like saying "he hated shooting people with a gun so he used the butt end of it to defeat them, with greater effect". There is no evidence to suppose Goutetsu was different from Gouki. The "Mu" symbol on his back meant he was able to survive the trip to Hell, a move he invented (it follows Gouki has this same attribute since he does the move all the time and comes out unscathed). Also remember that Goutetsu supposedly enjoyed dying vs Gouki, his prize pupil, the keeper of the *true*, complete art, in all its violent aspects. quote: Originally posted by Clay The flaw in the logic of the previous paragraph was that they failed to view the whole picture and only focused on the very short-term. SnH Ryu is stronger than Ryu in the heat of the moment (and in a brute force sort of way like you mentioned), but over time, he actually ends up capping or limiting his total ability if he follows SnH. There isn't enough direct evidence in the games to suggest this. you're using conjecture, which may or may not be right. Your insight about Ryu could be correct, but it's still too open to say "surely he would be weaker if he kept using it". [/B][/QUOTE] The true test of Ryu’s mastery of his art will come when he is able to use True Ansatsuken without Satsui no Hadou. Both Goutetsu and Gouken had learned to do this ... [/B][/QUOTE] No way. There's abosultely nothing in any game so far to support this. As I mentioned before, there is no reason to suppose Goutetsu was different from Gouki. And suppose he changed, for whatever reason (which I think he did not) a lot of good it did him, since he got toally blown away by his student. Either he regressed dramatically in power, or Gouki is some kind of monster. Or maybe he tried to do a move and the damn joystick wouldn't go in that direction, I hate it when that happens. You're changing things we know to be true when you say, "...he is able to use True Ansatsuken without Satsui no Hadou...and Gouken had learned to do this ..." What we know for a *fact* is that Gouken chose to REJECT the true, killing ability (read as: more powerful) and cognitively chose to invent and use a *weaker*, incomplete form of the art. This is beyond dispute. There is no True ansatsu ken without the possibility, no the garuntee, of *death* to the opponent. That is the totality of the art, and when Gouken chose to reject it, he got something not as powerful. [/B][/QUOTE] Then Ryu with True Ansatsu-ken > SnH Ryu with True Ansatsu-ken [/B][/QUOTE] Using what we know to be true about the original three, I think SnH outbursts and the like are unique to Ryu, who had no knowledge of the TAken and had to "get vicious" to be more deadly. Remember how SnH ryu is always out of control, and can't even o the moves properly (for example, his SGS usually has less hits for less damage). [/B][/QUOTE] This elevates his so-called weaker style into (roughly) the same league as True Ansatsu-ken (although not as powerful as Gouki’s enhanced style yet). The various forms of Hadou that he created become much more dangerous and the Shin Sho would have to be considered the strongest DP-type technique. [/B][/QUOTE] Considering the above, this is impossible. If Ryu knows of TAken moves, it isn't because Gouken taught them to him, because he taught a weaker style, which Ryu embraced, and rejected the power of the true art. He would have learned them through SnH. Since he doesn't use SnH, and it isn't simply "grumpy Ryu", it follows, along with other evidence presented in this post and thread, that his moves are and always will be weaker than the true art. Posted by sano on 03:28:2002 10:06 PM: Grenade Falcon - So Linn is a Cyborg! Thanks! Posted by Berias on 03:28:2002 10:29 PM: You bring up a lot of good points. quote: Originally posted by Clay It is possible to practice Ansatsu-ken without SnH. This relates directly to Goutetsu and Gouken which I will mention later See above post. This is either incomplete or not applicable. Whatever follows for Goutetsu, I am pretty sure would follow for Gouki. i'm not saying Ryu has no hope of becoming stronger than he is now, what I'm saying is the current version is always less than the true version. Check my previous post for a list of reason why we know this to be true from the games and backgrounds mentioned by Saiki. quote: Originally posted by Clay Goutetsu and Gouken weren’t in misery, mainly because they had mastered the art without SnH. They were in full control of themselves. In fact, Gouken’s symbol, mu, meant nothingness, which represents nothingness, showing the control he had over his emotions (think Gen, I know Saiki mentioned it a long time ago). As for Gouki, he definitely underwent SnH, but he seems to have handled it a lot differently than Ryu. [/B] Much of this early Gouki and Goutetsu stuff is shrouded in mystery. There is no SnH Gouki that we have ever heard of, and since he seems to have followed MUCH closer ot Goutetsu than did Gouken, no reason to believe he did things that much differently. quote: Originally posted by Clay ...What I was pondering was whether Gouki was ever like Ryu and had any morals. ... but he’s far too liberal with his definitions to show any sign of regret over loss of life. Apparently, if you happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, then you’re screwed. Gouki didn’t have to kill the sub and boat full of people (3s) but he did simply because he didn’t think that they were important enough to spare. That type of callous behavior is what I’m referring to when I say that he is very bestial or inhumane. [/B] Good one. Although I am not going to defend social or moral relativism, which I think is silly at best, I think these contradictins can be explained. If you watch the 3s ending, Gouki doesn't see the Sub (it's behind him, you can tell from the searchlight), and probably not the ship. Maybe he knew they were there, but I agree with you that was not a good thing for him to do. But you yourself have argued that Gouki does not use his full power in fights because he doesn't want to kill people senselessly. That's the reason for the difference between strength in Gouki and Real Gouki (compare this to Snh Ryu, who just goes nuts all the time with even less regard for life) Based on this, it's plausible that he didn't know they were there. But it would be pretty hard not to see them after he tore the boat to shreds. Maybe he's never seen anything like that before. quote: Originally posted by Clay I just assumed that the reason for the lack of dialogue was to show that the two didn’t actually fight each other, and if they did, that it was just a sparring match. I don’t think that Capcom would want to have them say something, only to have it repeated or changed in the future. I know that this hasn’t stopped them before, so I don’t really know. [/B] You're absolutely right. I just thought of the fight as at least a "what-if" and thought it was strange that there was no dialogue. quote: Originally posted by Clay Do you think that Gouki has lost interest in Ryu as a candidate for a death match or a candidate for SnH? Oro said in another 15 years he might be ready (not for Gouki, but to get somewhere close to that level). [/B] Death match. Personally, I would like to see Gouki retire from the Sf scene. But that won't happen since he's on a training spree. Oro says something like "you'll[Ryu] have to learn everything over..." which is kind of strange. Oro's judge of character power is questionabe. He says to Gill "You look about as strong as that boy with the headband." About as strong? Gill is supposed to be way beyond Ryu, so what is Oro talking about? There are a lot of possibilities to go from here, but I'll leave it to you to kick off the post. Awaiting your thoughts Posted by TiamatRoar on 03:29:2002 06:53 PM: Random: The latest issue of EGM has an interview about Capcom's game, Maximo, with David Siller (Director of Research and Development) and Bill Anderson (Senior Game Designer) of Capcom Digital Studios, which is an American based part of Capcom. I noticed this particularly interesting piece in the interview EGM: Did that shift in design [about having to make Maximo a tie-in with Ghouls 'n Ghosts] bug you guys? Bill Anderson: No. [more stuff yada yada] But even though we're part of Capcom, we're not Capcom Japan. We can't arbitrarily say we're going to do Ghouls 'n Ghosts without going through a big long negotiotiation on what that entails - the rights and so on. [etc etc] David Siller: We also wanted to control our own destiny. When we did Final Fight Revenge (for the Japanese Saturn), the art had to be approved by Capcom Japan every step of the way. With Maximo, even though it was (Japanese illustrator Susumu) Matsushita creating the art, we really designed the characters. We spec'ed out what we wanted. So... apparently, since it's implied by his later remarks about designing the characters and specs, that the 'art' they had to get approved by Capcom of Japan was basically all nontechnical programming elements (story, character design, etc), Final Fight Revenge's storyline elements apparently were okay'd by Capcom of Japan before the game was released. Also, Final Fight Revenge came out after Street Fighter Alpha 3, but it was in development before Street Fighter Alpha 3 (Capcom Japan just decided to go and release SFA3 without waiting for Final Fight Revenge to get complete). So... I'm pretty sure it's canon, though like all other retroactive overrides, Street Fighter Alpha 3 (which was supposed to come out after Final Fight Revenge) overrides Final Fight Revenge's jail storyline possibly. Erm, yea:P Posted by Psycho Power J on 03:31:2002 12:41 PM: TiamatRoar: So, basically the FFR is official storyline? Weird. Well, it's Capcom after all. Hey, what are the odds of there being a SnH Sakura? I know that with Ryu, it could happen if he becomes obsessed with winning. But how about Sakura? I don't see anything that might imply that it could happen to Sakura. It's not like she wants to be better than Ryu (does she?), but rather thinks fighting is fun for it's own sake and just wants Ryu to teach her. Posted by sano on 04:01:2002 06:12 PM: Psycho Power - I don't think a SNH Sakura is likely for the reasons you mentioned. I think the VS. games feel a SNH Sakura is possible because she is devoted to fighting and nothing else just like Ryu, but I think it would be to out of character for her to show up in an official game battling or having succombed to the SNH. I hope an older Sakura does show up in SF4, but since she won't be in highschool anymore and won't show her panties when she kicks since she'll either be wearing sweats or a gi (and this will tick of a lot of fan boys) Capcom is probably better off leaving Sakura in the unofficial vs. games where she can stay frozen at 16 forever. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:01:2002 09:26 PM: Well, I'm not sure if it's 100% hard core evidence that Final Fight Revenge is official, but it's "Damn bloody well likely" evidence, I think^^ Yea, I'm pretty positive that SnH Sakura is in the verse games for the reasons you mention, but for her to get that far in an official storyline would be quite whacked Posted by Azrael-sama on 04:02:2002 07:21 AM: As is, I think that no, Sakura would not face SnH. However, with formal training, and if she were to focus on the fight, I could see her being tempted with it. Remember her off-the-charts potential - at 16 years old, she's using Ansatsuken by just copying the moves she saw, and is already Tier 5. I mean, damn, that's nothing short of remarkable, IMHO. For that reason, I would really like to see a serious Sakura in SF4 (or any other future SF game). I am by no means a Sakura fanboy, but I think Capcom built up far too much potential with her to have her fall to the wayside. Have either Ryu or Ken sit out the next fight, and have Sakura in the game as a serious Ansatsuken fighter, perhaps as a student of Ryu's. (And yes, the schoolgirl outfit has to go) As a possible storyline, you could have her tempted by SnH, and Gouki developing an interest in her. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:02:2002 10:40 AM: Okay, here's my view on the Ansatsuken arts. As my examples, I'm going to compare the Ansatsuken used by the shotos to real-life martial arts. Ryu: His version is the equivalent of a tournament-style martial arts. Tournament-style martial arts are made to conform to rules in the ring. Therefore, attacks are made with some restraint. In Ryu's case, it's his aversion to killing that makes him hold his punches. SnH Ryu: His version is the the same as the forms learned in the tournament-style martial arts. However, this style lacks the restraints of the normal version. It is using the techniques learned from the tournament-style and applying it outside the ring. None of the attacks are held back and anything goes. They are used to their full extent to do as much as damage to the opponent. It's like taking Mike Tyson's gloves off and letting him resort to anything to beat the other guy. In his case, it include biting the other guy's ear off. Lot's of destructive power right there. Akuma: Kind of like the above, but his isn't the tournament-style, but it's more practical counterpart, the street-style. It's designed in a way that it does it's intended purpose, to beat the other guy. None of the fancy stuff. Everything is to the point. This is much more superior to the previous two. It's not just unrestrained attacks, but are made so that they cause maximum possible effect, to the point that they could seriously hurt or even kill their opponent. SnH Ryu was more powerful than Regular Ryu, because none of his attacks were restrained. It's unleashed to do as much damage as possible, which is why his shoryuken is much stronger than the regular one. It wasn't held back at all, but done in all it's destructive potential. Akuma's true Ansatsuken is more powerful than Ryu's or even SnH Ryu's style. It's because not only is it done for maximum effect, but is designed specifically to reach it. Is it possible for tournament-style martial artist to beat an unrestrained one? Yes. Is it possible for tournament-style martial artist to beat a street-style martial artist? Yes. But if you compare two martial artists of equal skills, then the one who's using the more practical arts is likely going to win. Well, that's about it. Comments anyone? Posted by Clay on 04:02:2002 08:57 PM: quote: Originally posted by Smiley ok.. so what exactly IS oro? i'm sorry, but i really don't wanna search 1000 posts for an answer... There isn’t too much background to Oro that I’m aware of, and as always, if anybody has anymore info or thoughts on the subject, then feel free to post them. Oro is over 140 years old and had been living as a hermit in a cave for some time now. Recently, he felt that it would become necessary to challenge the outside world and to find a student(s), so that he could pass on his fighting style so that it wouldn’t become forgotten. In order to level the playing field, he sealed one of his arms because he is apparently waaaay too strong for most people to comprehend. He is a sennin, and is totally devoid of selfishness or greed. Upon entering the Third WW tourney, Oro defeated Ryu and then dropped out of the tournament. His fight with Ryu rekindled his desire to resume his training and he hopes that someday, he will be able to pass on his senjitsu to a worthy warrior (allusions here to Ryu). He is currently re-training himself and awaiting a rematch with Ryu. As of SF3, Oro is considered to be one of the three strongest characters in the SF Universe (the other two being Gill and Gouki). He is also arguably the greatest manipulator of ki. Proof of this is his ability to levitate objects (Tengu stone super and his 3s ending) and his massive projectile capabilities (Yagyou Daikon, lvl 3 Yagyou Dama). Hope that helped. -Clay Posted by Clay on 04:02:2002 09:05 PM: Thanks Tiamat for the info on the interview, it does help paint a behind the scenes type picture. Also on the Sakura subject, I gotta agree with Az. As of SFZ3, I really don’t see it happening, but you never know what she’s been up to lately. Anyway, she would definitely need some training because, right now (SFZ3) her style is far too unpolished and less deadly than Ryu and Ken’s. I liken it to a dummied down version of an already dummied down version of a fighting style. Gotta go to work now, I'll be back tomorrow. -Clay Posted by Ultima on 04:02:2002 10:13 PM: From TiamatRoar: >So... apparently, since it's implied by his later remarks about designing the characters and specs, that the 'art' they had to get approved by Capcom of Japan was basically all nontechnical programming elements (story, character design, etc), Final Fight Revenge's storyline elements apparently were okay'd by Capcom of Japan before the game was released. > Also, Final Fight Revenge came out after Street Fighter Alpha 3, but it was in development before Street Fighter Alpha 3 (Capcom Japan just decided to go and release SFA3 without waiting for Final Fight Revenge to get complete). *shudders* > So... I'm pretty sure it's canon, though like all other retroactive overrides, Street Fighter Alpha 3 (which was supposed to come out after Final Fight Revenge) overrides Final Fight Revenge's jail storyline possibly. I certainly hope so. I think I'll pretend that that game just doesn't exist, and maintain my sanity. ^_^ To sano: You're just about right. I can almost guarantee that there will never be an "adult" Sakura. At least not one with an updated outfit. Sakura's whole popularity is in her "fighting schoolgirl archetype" schtick which is featured by her uniform (an immensely popular item in Japan, as featured by the fact that even young adult women long graduated from high school still wear the uniform; not to mention it's a big hit with all the pedophiles/lolicons), and without that she's nothing. She will most likely either never grow up, or never get a new outfit. However, the SnH Sakura in the Vs. games isn't really SnH Sakura - though we call her Dark/Evil Sakura, I think her official name is "Sunburned Sakura". That is, she's just Sakura with a tan. Her aquiring Gouki's moves is probably a means of parodying Gouki (last I checked, the name of her "Instant Hell Murder" was actually "Spring Breeze Murder"), as well as a means of Capcom squeezing another character out of a pallete-swap, more than any reflection of any storyline outcome. On the other hand, it's possible she's a portrayal of what Sakura would be like if she sought out Gouki to train her after being rejected by Ryu (something I have in my SF RPG Manifesto), but I don't know if we'll know for sure either way. Concerning the Ryu/Gouki thing, I think their philosphy has made them choose the paths they have chosen. Here's how I see difference betweenthem: Gouki: I am stronger than you. Therefore I will win, and you will lose and die. Ryu: I am (possibly) stronger than you. Therefore I will (probably) win and you will (probably) lose. However, if you learn from your defeat, and go back and get stronger, and challenge me when you are stronger, I will have a better fight, which makes me stronger as well. (USe of "probably" to show that Ryu does not necessarily assume he's better than his opponents, something which I think Gouki does at this point, and I can't say I blame him). The way I see it, Gouki wants to beat everyone until he's the last (and therefore strongest) fighter left. On the other hand, Ryu wants to always improve himself (which is different than merely becoming the strongest), and letting his opponents live (giving them a chance to improve themselves, which has a chance of improving himself as a result as explained above) gives him (I would think) a more fulfilling means of acheiving that. Of course, both fighters also improve themselves on their own, but they will always need opponents to test themselves against. Gouki's method leaves him fewer and fewer opponents, while Ryu's method potentially gives him more opponents to fight as time goes on (defeated opponents can always challenge him again, or perhaps train others to fight). Ultimately, I think Gouki's method is self-defeating. He's beyond most human fighters right now (though there's no guarantee that he'll stay that way - I defintely think Ryu will catch him, and of course Oro and Gill ae on his level), and snuffing out potential opponents when they are weaker before they have acheived full potential could bite him in the ass. Not unless he plans on testing his fist against mountains, oceans, and other aspects of nature. Or maybe he'll find a way to Magigen and decides to take on a few Dark Stalkers. Whatever. In the meantime, he's gotten to the point where there are only a handful of opponents who can truly test him. I think there's only so much he can improve now before he starts to stagnate (again, unless he changes targets), though it could take decades before anyone who is not on his level to catch him. Meanwhile, Ryu is constantly improving (though perhaps at a slower rate than if he used Gouki's method), but his potential to improve is limitless since he can potentially never run out of opponents. Also, concerning comparing Shinshoryuken vs. Gou Shoryuken, I'm not sure we can determine which move is stronger just based on what it was intended to do. I don't think that the Gou Shoryuken (intended to kill) is necessarily stronger than the Shinshoryuken (not intended to kill). Afterall, there are ways to kill people that don't necessarily inflict a lot of damage. For example, which inflicts more damage: Strangling someone to death, or punching them really hard in the jaw? Also, I'm certain that you have to apply the moves in a certain manner in order to get their intended effect. I think it's possibly to hit someone with a Shinshoryuken and kill them, as well as possible to hit someone with a Gou Shoryuken and not kill them (hit them on the arm or something, or maybe we can use Ryu's scarring shoryuken on Sagat as an example). Furthermore, I think the strength and the constitution of the people involved matters. I don't think just anyone performing a Gou Shoryuken will automatically kill just anyone. Gouki could probably kill most opponents with a Gou Shoryuken because he's so damn strong, but I wouldn't that, say, Dan, performing a Gou Shoryuken would be able to kill someone. Also, we shouldn't compare a young Ryu and younger Sagat to an older, much more experienced Ryu and Hugo. For all we know, when Ryu fought Hugo, Hugo was a much more powerful warrior than Sagat was when he fought Ryu intiially. And there are too many details that we don't know. All we know is that Hugo took on a SSk and wasn't knocked unconscious, but that doesn't mention the state he was in after taking it. For all we know, he could have been in even worse shape than Sagat was after eating that shoryuken. In a nutshell, I think there are too many unknowns to accurately quantify and compare the strength of certain moves based on such limited examples. Okay, that's my two cents. See you'll in a week or whatever (damn 33.6 K, pay-by-the-hour thrid world country connection.. bleah). Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:02:2002 10:31 PM: I think the main reason Hugo could withstand a shin shoryuken is because he's a muscular type fighter. Sagat is more skilled than Hugo, but when it comes to sheer endurance, a giant like Hugo can probably withstand more. Though... there is also the fact that Sagat wasn't as strong in Street Fighter 1 as he was in the present day, and Hugo isn't exactly a newbie to fighting, either (he's been fighting on the streets and toughening up since Final Fight 1, after all). It's kinda like how Zangief's body is more rock hard than Akuma's, but there's no doubt that Akuma would win in a fight due to Akuma's skill. Hugo has a rock hard body that's probably even harder than Sagat's, but that doesn't mean he's stronger than Sagat overall. I'm pretty sure the SFA3 jail reason for Cody is the true one also because Final Fight One dialogue kinda implies it heavily. It's a major part of Cody's storyline, personality, and character development that he got thrown into jail due to his own fault (He just can't stop fighting) and not someone framing him. In all actuality, though, I don't think the FFR reason directly contradicts the SFA3 reason heresay... Posted by Siegfried on 04:02:2002 10:32 PM: As for Hugo taking that hit, that doesn't mean that he's stronger than Sagat or anything. It just means that Hugo is a huge (no pun intended) guy who can take anything thrown at him. Sagat would kill him with hit after hit after hit, but a single one, no matter how powerful, won't knock Hugo out. Posted by Siegfried on 04:02:2002 10:45 PM: Tiamat: I read your note about no SFEX characters being in a Capcom game, and remembered this Pocket Fighter cameo who looks like Garuda: http://www.tekken.nu/fightermania/cameo/pf-noo03.gif Now, it might be Bishamon but I don't remember him having such a huge mane of blonde hair. The arms do look like Bish though... any suggestions on this? Posted by Siegfried on 04:02:2002 11:28 PM: As for the Shadowlaw/Shadaloo question, Shadaloo (SHA-DA-RO-U) could be a bad katakana translation of Shadowlaw. "Loo" is pronounced as "law" anyway. I'll go with Shadowlaw, it makes a little more sense. Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:02:2002 11:43 PM: Maybe that is Bishamon. Who knows? But I think most of us here are aware, or should be aware, that Capcom doesn't own the rights to Arika's half of the SFEX roster. Any character in that series who didn't originate from SF Alpha or SF2 is not officially their's, so if it's canon info you want, Kairi and Doctrine Dark need not be. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:02:2002 11:54 PM: Yea, I saw that Garuda cameo over there. That was really... weird I have no clue what's up with that, but all indications so far besides that cameo are that Arika owns the rights to the characters, which is why they appeared in Fighting Layer. I guess I could be wrong, though. Can't really think of anyone else that cameo could be, exactly, though Bishamon seems the next most logical step. Maybe Capcom managed to slip it in, and he's officially NOT Garuda but intended for the player to think it's Garuda so Capcom doesn't have to worry about Arika lawyers? I dunno Really? It's pronounced as law, anyways? Dang, I didn't know that Oo I saw someone lists the possible ways to translate it and Shadowlaw wasn't among them, but we all know how many ways it's possible to translate Japanese to English Hmm. Guess I should change that note. It's still definate in the US that it's Shadaloo, though. I went rummaging through every dialogue FAQ to a Street Fighter game and even SNK vs Capcom MOTM for the Neo Geo Pocket Color and they all call it Shadaloo Shadowlaw is the preferred thing for me, too Have that for its name in all my noncanon fanfics All... one of them, but whatever. Will sadly probably have to go with Shadaloo in the more canon fic I'm writing on, but ah well Posted by Golden Hell on 04:03:2002 01:36 PM: On the subject of SFEX, didn't Skullomania appear in that god-awful Fighter Maker game? See, thats reason enough to believe that Capcom doesn't own the EX rights, cause there's no way they would want to associate themselves with a piece of trash game like that All kidding aside, out of the EX roster, I think it'd be pretty cool to have Allen Snider and Darun Mister be in an official Capcom SF game. I'd love to see them in 2d glory. They're actually cool characters with a slick design. Too bad Arika can't be bothered to give them a background storyline. Posted by Berias on 04:04:2002 05:41 AM: quote: Originally posted by Siegfried Tiamat: I read your note about no SFEX characters being in a Capcom game, and remembered this Pocket Fighter cameo who looks like Garuda: http://www.tekken.nu/fightermania/cameo/pf-noo03.gif Now, it might be Bishamon but I don't remember him having such a huge mane of blonde hair. The arms do look like Bish though... any suggestions on this? You're right, it's Bishamon. Garuda's shoulder armor has faces on it. Plus, his horns should be visible. However, I don't think Bishamon has that much hair. With regard to EX, it's not official, but it's not as far out as most of the VS series since Arika designed a lot of the old SF2 cast. Posted by Gwawainn on 04:04:2002 06:30 PM: WARNING: This is a question I asked on the WRONG thread, if its already been asked, please disregard the whole thing, I'll look the answer up myself in one of the 40something pages of this thread If it by any chance hasnt been asked, I already got an answer on the previous thread, but would like to hear a few more. One thing I would like to know, who do you people think would win between and Shin if reached his full potential. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:04:2002 07:52 PM: I dunno... the problem is when you talk about potential, you enter theory fighter land. Exactly -how- much potential is "full" potential, after all? Isn't the human body and mind limitless in its potential? Will Akuma continue to improve, himself, as Evil Ryu heads towards full potential? How much potential does Satsu no Hadou have and how much potential does it cut-off, if any? It's a pretty... theretical and arbitrary judgement call, I think. Posted by Psycho Power J on 04:04:2002 10:08 PM: The human mind is theoretically limitless but the human body is not. To go beyond the limit of the human body is to not be human. Of course, since Akuma doesn't appear human anymore, his potential might be limitless. Posted by Clay on 04:05:2002 08:47 AM: Hey Ultima, what’s up? I had almost thought that you had forgotten about this thread for awhile. Good to see you back. Seems like I’ve got a little catching up to do; has anybody else had any problems accessing this site over the last week or so? Berias: quote: But they aren't improvements. They're *weaker*. Do you remember when Saiki said, way back in the thread, the moves in the original art killed in a single blow? The four signatures?Gouken didn't like this and changed it. That's what was taught to his students. Ryu's Shinsho is WEAKER than a Gou Shoryuken. Hmmm… I do remember _me_ saying that back on page one of this thread and I wasn’t disputing that. However, Ryu’s moves are improvements to the style that he was taught. Since the style that he was taught was based off of Goutetsu’s style, any variations that he makes to Gouken’s style should be directly applicable to Goutetsu’s style, if the user (in this case Ryu) has proper knowledge of the true arts. In the event that he where to apply the True Ansatsu-ken techniques to his own moves, then his variations would indeed become true improvements. Imo, the Shin Shoryu-ken would indeed be stronger than the Gou Shoryu-ken. I agree with you, but all things being equal, I regard the Shin Sho as the superior technique, that's all. quote: Youg, inexperienced Ryu takes on Sagat, a total freak, in SF1 and is losing badly. Then all of a sudden he knocks the hell out of Sagat with *one uppercut*. Sagat is down from one hit and his body has a huge scar. If he was weaker he would have died. Years later, Ryu doesn't use that style, and develops the Shinshoryuken. However, Saiki said (Officially, remember) he used it on Hugo in SF3 and Hugo, certainly NOT at Sagat's SF1 level, was not even knocked out! Ryu's old uppercut as a young boy under the true art tore a monster of a man to shreds in one hit, sending him to within an inch of his life and scarring him for life. Older, wiser Ryu's shinsho cannot even KO an overgrown WWF knock off. Why is it assumed that Sagat can take a hit better than Hugo? Especially considering the fact that absorbing punishment is seemingly what Hugo does best. If Sagat is a “mountain of a man”, what does that make Hugo? Hugo is over 8’ tall and for lack of a better description, built like a tank. He has far more physical girth than Sagat and can probably withstand a lot more outright abuse. On top of that, Sagat was wide open when he was hit; his defenses were down, while Hugo was still set on fighting when contact was initiated, he was at least prepared for the ensuing blow. Berias: I’ll get to your other responses with my next post(s). Gotta go for now. Thanks for your patience. -Clay Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:07:2002 08:50 AM: Does anyone know why Gill hosted the SF3 tournament? I'm not totally clear on this myself. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:07:2002 09:37 AM: I'm pretty sure he did so to find chosen and worthy warriors for when like... rapture comes and such, didn't he? Judging by Alex, if that's the case, it looks like the tournament was a success. I'm not really sure, though. I don't pay much attention to and can't find much info on SF3's storyline Posted by sano on 04:08:2002 06:12 PM: Golden Hell - I wouldn't mind seeing Pullum Purna in an official game! I was playing EX2 over the weekend and I beat the game with her. Pullum's level 3 super has her throwing musical notes at her opponent and making them dance to her background stage in EX1! During the game I got to make Ryu, Ken, Chunli, Sagat and Vega (the dictator) dance! After Ryu got knocked out from dancing, Pullum bent over and said to Ryu "Kawaii!" (cute in japanese) I'm sure this was just a win quote and not specifically meant for Ryu, but it was funny as hell! The EX series sucks when compared to the official games, but it does have it's moments. Posted by Saiki on 04:09:2002 12:22 AM: actually, EX2 does have endings. Just in the japanese version only... Posted by PraecLarum on 04:09:2002 12:46 AM: ? Bwa? What happened to my post? Really? Thanks for that Saiki! I usually get the Japanese games but with EX2 I had to grab a UK edition. I've not bothered to think that the original would have endings...silly me..so that's a job to do and read up on! Honestly...why did they remove it? Capcom USA license the games in Europe so they must be responsible right? Thanks again, I need all the info I can get! ~Nic P.S) Has anyone seen an 'All About' video? Like the books, I know they are released for almost every game and they look really good... Posted by Berias on 04:09:2002 04:51 AM: "Honestly...why did they remove it? " Capcom USA's priority is making money. They don't see the SF series as anything other than a cash cow. Little nuances like logic and continuity can drop dead. Does anyone know where there is a list or explanation of the EX2 endings? Posted by Golden Hell on 04:09:2002 12:39 PM: EX2 has endings? Thats pretty cool. Is it like the first one with senseless fmv sequences or is it like EX3 with text gibberish? Either way, I'd prefer either one rather than the version we got here in the US (just your character's picture with "thanks for playing" - or something along those lines). Is there any way you can provide those EX2 endings, Saiki? Please? Pretty please? Also, while we're on the subject, does someone have the EX3 endings as well. I only played it once and beat it with Ryu, I'd like to know the other endings. Muchos gracias! sano - yeah, Pullum is pretty cool too. I just got tired of her in that training mode cause some of the things they ask you to do is near impossible. Talk about frustration! Does she have some sort of relation to Darun? Didn't they appear in each other's endings in EX1? But you're right, as a whole, the EX series is very weak, but it does have its moments. I think some of the character designs are very well done, but then you get guys like Skullomania. They also have some nice looking supers, but than you get some moves which sends opponents into orbit?! Its definately a game that can't be taken too seriously. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:09:2002 01:31 PM: I thought Pullum was a friend of Blaire, of whom Darun was the body guard of, and thus Pullum knew Darun? Though... I kinda forget Posted by sano on 04:09:2002 05:12 PM: Tiamatroar - I thought Darun was Pullum's bodyguard. Isn't he chasing her in his EX1 ending if I remember correctly? Oh, I saw the new updated SF plot guide. First time I've seen that drawing of young Chunli training with Gen! Incredible job! Ultima - Sun Burned Sakura? Didn't know about that. Thanks! Let me guess, while imitating Gouki's moves on Goutenkou island, she got a tan?!! I'm kidding, but oh boy. Just when I thought the Marvel crossover games were taking Sakura seriously. I should of known not to expect that from a series that has characters like Norimaru and Amingo. Saiki - EX2 had endings? Yet, another reason to hate Capcom USA. Welcome back! Posted by PraecLarum on 04:09:2002 09:31 PM: Yes, Pullum is a great character.Probably the best thing out of EX. (Apart from Allen, he's great fun!) Yeah I believe the Darun/Blair/all go together thing is all correct. I looked in All About Capcom quickly and it has the ending...but I will be a while translating it as I'm not 100% with Japanese yet. It said something about Darun though. ~Nic Posted by PraecLarum on 04:10:2002 10:44 PM: Another question Sorry, just a quick question. I know Canon is a another word for official story but where does the term originate and what does it mean in itself? Sorry if this is a dumb newbie question...but I am one ^_^ ~Nic Posted by Clay on 04:10:2002 11:01 PM: quote: Originally posted by Berias First I'd like to apologize for causing confusion. It seems a lot of it is from my switching the definitions for Ansatsuken ad SnH without notice. No apology necessary. I wish that I could have replied sooner, but it seems like the last couple of times that I have tried to access the site, the server or the forum was down. quote: That's just my point. We have never heard of SnH Gouki either. We haven’t? quote: There is no evidence that he went through what Ryu did. Hmmm, let’s see. According to Z3, when Ryu chooses SnH, the first thing that he does is to seek out the strongest fighters available and then goes off to kill them. He starts by targeting Shadaloo members, including Vega, and eventually finds Gouki and then kills him. After that, he looks to the future, talking about finding or coming across a warrior who would be strong enough to defeat/kill himself. This fits the standard SnH archetype. After giving in to his darker side, Ryu runs amok, kills all of the strongest fighters and then looks to the next crop of warriors to find the ones who will challenge him. Gouki’s own history follows this exact same pattern. Think about it, after they finished their training Gouki continued his training by himself while Gouken eventually settled down and created his own dojo. After years of continuous training Gouki reemerges and does the following: -Seeks out the strongest warriors (mainly Goutetsu and Gouken) -Kills them -Then looks for the next set of fighters who will challenge him Satsui no Ryu’s path mimics Gouki’s own so closely that it should be obvious what happened here. I cannot think of any counter arguments. The similarities don’t even end their. Both SnH Ryu and Gouki then seclude themselves (in islands/caverns as well) for more training. On top of that, they both begin to take on demonic-like appearances (fangs, darker skin, glowing eyes, etc...). Both SnH Ryu and Gouki’s attitudes and quotes match each other so closely (philosophically) that it becomes apparent that Gouki has been affected by SnH. How much more evidence is necessary? quote: I thin SnH is the only way Ryu knows how to acess the real ansatsuken techniques, since he wasn't taught them. It demonstrates his lack of control over the power. Imo, SnH demonstrates a lack of control over ones self or emotions. I still think that this is very important. Gouki has great self control because he has learned how to deal with SnH over time and it seems to be what he has always wanted. As far as we know, Gouki has always had a burning desire to be better than his brother, his master, and everyone else as well, that’s why SnH comes so naturally to him. Ryu had some of these same feelings, but is also of a different mindset and this is why he resists SnH. He will have better control without it. quote: that he used SnH is not in dispute. That it was a real TAken technique is somewhat hazy but suppose it is. Agreed, I don’t mean to imply that Ryu used a True Ansatsuken DP on Sagat, but it must have been at least fairly close to the real deal. quote: Here is why Ryu will not come upon using the True ansatsuken techniques. As you know, Gouken HATED the killing part of the art and changed (from the point of view of some, perverted) it. Now, Ryu HATES the killing art as well, since he rejects the thing that leads him to some knowledge of it. There is no reason to suppose that by ignoring the *fundamental* aspect of AK (remember, it means killing fist) Ryu will figure out a way to use the complete art. This is like saying "he hated shooting people with a gun so he used the butt end of it to defeat them, with greater effect". There is no evidence to suppose Goutetsu was different from Gouki. The "Mu" symbol on his back meant he was able to survive the trip to Hell, a move he invented (it follows Gouki has this same attribute since he does the move all the time and comes out unscathed). Also remember that Goutetsu supposedly enjoyed dying vs Gouki, his prize pupil, the keeper of the *true*, complete art, in all its violent aspects. I disagree. Here’s a point by point rundown: - To say that Gouken hated True ansatsuken is an assumption. What is fact is that he taught Ryu and Ken a non lethal form of it. You could say that it was because Gouken hated it, but it seems more logical that it was because he didn’t feel that it was necessary to teach teenage children how to kill. If Gouken had hated Ansatsu-ken so much, then he probably would have learned (and then taught) a different art instead. -Ryu doesn’t hate True Ansatsu-ken, he dislikes pointless killing. -Ryu studies an art that his directly derived from True Ansatsu-ken and has remained nearly intact. It’s not like he has taken up TKD and expects it to lead to the perfect Shoryu-ken. What he practices day in and day out is very close to the original. He still has all of the fundamentals down. -Actually, there is no evidence to support the fact that Goutetsu was like Gouki. We know next to nothing of Goutetsu, but he never took on a demonic form and seemed to have stayed away from SnH. This is why I say that it is possible to practice True Ansatsu-ken without SnH. Goutetsu created the art, yet he never succumbed to the killing intent. It is possible to practice/use a killing art without needlessly slaying an opponent. This directly leads into another point on why Ryu is better off without SnH. -I don’t want to be picky, but the Mu symbol was on Gouken’s back, not Goutetsu’s. This shows the difference between the two brothers. Gouki emphasizes physical dominance, while Gouken stressed mastery of the mind. Both are important in there own ways and contribute to the making of a “complete” fighter. -Goutetsu was supposedly pleased to see his student surpass him, but nobody ever said that he wanted to die. As a warrior, he was prepared to though, and didn’t seem to carry any ill will towards Gouki. quote: There isn't enough direct evidence in the games to suggest this. you're using conjecture, which may or may not be right. Your insight about Ryu could be correct, but it's still too open to say "surely he would be weaker if he kept using it". If SnH makes Ryu more unstable/volatile, and he loses control, then he is worse of in the long run. Regardless of whether you or I think that it’s possible or not, the truth is that Ryu with True Ansatsu-ken is better than SnH Ryu with True Ansatsu-ken. However, I also admit that it isn’t very likely that Ryu will use True Ansatsu-ken unless he succumbs to SnH. Perhaps if he were in a life or death situation, but that is only speculation and not part of my argument. quote: No way. There's abosultely nothing in any game so far to support this. As I mentioned before, there is no reason to suppose Goutetsu was different from Gouki. And suppose he changed, for whatever reason (which I think he did not) a lot of good it did him, since he got toally blown away by his student. Either he regressed dramatically in power, or Gouki is some kind of monster. Or maybe he tried to do a move and the damn joystick wouldn't go in that direction, I hate it when that happens. You're changing things we know to be true when you say, "...he is able to use True Ansatsuken without Satsui no Hadou...and Gouken had learned to do this ..." What we know for a *fact* is that Gouken chose to REJECT the true, killing ability (read as: more powerful) and cognitively chose to invent and use a *weaker*, incomplete form of the art. This is beyond dispute. There is no True ansatsu ken without the possibility, no the garuntee, of *death* to the opponent. That is the totality of the art, and when Gouken chose to reject it, he got something not as powerful. Goutetsu was different from Gouki, as I said before, there is no reason to assume that they were similar. Gouki fell under SnH while Goutetsu did not. Gouki was "some kind of monster” because after the three parted ways, Gouki trained far more and far harder than the other two and became a better warrior as a result of this. Gouken didn’t reject the art, he learned it. He choose to teach Ryu and Ken a non lethal form of it. It’s possible that he would have revealed the full form when they had become advanced enough, but we’ll never know because Gouki was on a power trip and wanted to kill his own brother. Also, nobody is denying that True Ansatsu-ken leads to the possibility of death, but one can accept this without SnH. quote: Using what we know to be true about the original three, I think SnH outbursts and the like are unique to Ryu, who had no knowledge of the TAken and had to "get vicious" to be more deadly. Remember how SnH ryu is always out of control, and can't even o the moves properly (for example, his SGS usually has less hits for less damage). They’re not unique to Ryu because Gouki has gone through the same thing. The fact that SnH Ryu isn’t in control just helps prove my point. Issues like SnH come up for a lot of fighters, it just usually isn’t as powerful as it is in Ryu’s case. quote: Considering the above, this is impossible. If Ryu knows of TAken moves, it isn't because Gouken taught them to him, because he taught a weaker style, which Ryu embraced, and rejected the power of the true art. He would have learned them through SnH. Since he doesn't use SnH, and it isn't simply "grumpy Ryu", it follows, along with other evidence presented in this post and thread, that his moves are and always will be weaker than the true art. It’s not impossible, see Goutetsu and Gouken. Gouken taught Ryu a variation of Ansatsu-ken, based off of this, it isn’t impossible for Ryu to learn what it would take to kill an opponent, whether it was through SnH is debatable (and besides the point). You’re right though, as long as Ryu refrains from using True Ansatsu-ken, his moves will be less deadly, even if they have more “raw” or brute power/force. -Clay Posted by Clay on 04:10:2002 11:23 PM: Re: Another question quote: Originally posted by PraecLarum Sorry, just a quick question. I know Canon is a another word for official story but where does the term originate and what does it mean in itself? Sorry if this is a dumb newbie question...but I am one ^_^ ~Nic Don't worry about it. Just check it out in a dictionary. I believe that it refers the rule or standard that all things relative are based off of. The "truth" or criteria used to judge new information or happenings. I've seen it used in a religious context before, mainly considering the bible and christianity, so it's origins may exist there. Like you said, in it's context here, it's used to describe something that is official and as a means of separating the "true" plot from the many variations. -Clay Posted by Berias on 04:11:2002 09:11 AM: I'm missing "Get Smart" for this. You know, the old spy show? ------------ "We haven't? ------------ No, not in any games. ------------------------------------ "Hmmm, let’s see. According to Z3, when Ryu chooses SnH, the first thing that he does is to seek out the strongest fighters available and then goes off to kill them. ...talking about finding or coming across a warrior who would be strong enough to defeat/kill himself. This fits the standard SnH archetype." ------------------------------------------------ By that logic, Sagat, current Ryu (or Ryu from SF2), Vega, Alex, Gen, Dan, and Adon are all operating under SnH. ------------------------------------ ... -Seeks out the strongest warriors (mainly Goutetsu and Gouken) -Kills them -Then looks for the next set of fighters who will challenge him Satsui no Ryu’s path mimics Gouki’s own so closely that it should be obvious what happened here. I cannot think of any counter arguments. ------------------------------------------------ No counters except that this pattern is mimicked by virtually half of the street fighter cast, with the possible exceptions of death. ------------------------------------------------ The similarities don’t even end their. Both SnH Ryu and Gouki then seclude themselves (in islands/caverns as well) for more training. On top of that, they both begin to take on demonic-like appearances (fangs, darker skin, glowing eyes, etc...). Both SnH Ryu and Gouki’s attitudes and quotes match each other so closely (philosophically) that it becomes apparent that Gouki has been affected by SnH. How much more evidence is necessary? ------------------------------------------------ Most of the powerful characters seclude themselves for training. As for SnH Ryu's island, I don't know that he had one, I know they stuck him in Gotenkou (or however you spell it) for Z3, only they made it blue instead of red. Yes, the appearance is similar, I'll give you that, but we have only one hazy picture of Goutetsu from a game Capcom now says is no longer cannon, I would not count him out. Most or all of the powerful characters in SF have glowing eyes or sharp teeth in at least more than one drawing (Gen, Sagat, Dhalsim, Urien, Mike Bison, etc) Gouki and SnH Ryu's attitudes are not similar. If you look at SnH Ryu's quotes, he **consistnently** talks about losing control, killing everything he sees without remorse, mindless destruction. Gouki has some killing in his quotes, but his are more along the lines of superority and training. Here's an example of quotes taken from CvsSNK 2, the japanese version, translated by a fan. Now I know this game is not cannon but it would be naive to say it does not reflect the character's actual attitudes. All these can be acessed at gamefaqs.com. This is from Kuruma's Quote List *************** Gouki: The passing of mortal battles, that is my enjoyment! Yuri: Mr. Gouki here says he wants to say something! Okay, go ahead! Gouki: ................There is nothing to be said! Hibiki: I am prepared to leave for the land of death. Gouki: Is your 'land of death' these children's games? Ridiculous! Ryu: (I feel a great amount of killing intent filling the air behind me....!) Gouki: ....Too slow! Defeat your opponent in an instant! Ken: I'll surpass both you and Ryu! Gouki: Hmph......Show me that your barking is more than just words! Gouki vs Yuri Gouki: Hmph.... Beating you was less than a game, little girl ************* This is copied from Shadowlaw Soldier's Quote/Ending FAQ ************* Satsui No Hado Ryu (Evil Ryu): ----------------------------------------------------------- "BLOOD...IT'S CALLING FOR ME!" ----------------------------------------------------------- Ryu's Evil Energy slowly disappears... What should he do now? Look for another battle? Look for help from his friends? What will become of Ryu... Gouki (Akuma): ----------------------------------------------------------- "I search for a fight to the death!" ----------------------------------------------------------- Though he has beat the Evil Powers, Akuma isn't satisfied. He is not satisfied by power, energy, or victories. Nobody can realize what Akuma longs for... Shin Gouki (Shin Akuma): ----------------------------------------------------------- "I will crush any opponent with one swift stroke!" ----------------------------------------------------------- As the sun rises in Osaka City, where is Shin Akuma? There're some who believe in a 'martial arts god' who disappeared into the fire, but will one day return... ************* These are from Kibagami's Voice Translations FAQ. The format was modified to fit the post. *Evil Ryu* "Death!" "My fist wants your blood!" "I will kill you!" "I mastered my fist!" The Kanji that appears when he performs the ShunGokuSatsu is this: –Å its reading is "Metsu" and it means "Destruction" *Gouki (Akuma)* "Get lost!" "A disgrace!" "Ridiculous!" The Kanji in his back is this: “V, its reading is "Ten" and it means "Heavens" *Shin Gouki (Akuma)* "I will show you my true power!" "Get lost!" "Are you ready?" "I am the Master of the Fist!" *************************** Once again, I did not translate or write any of those. They all came from their respective authors and can be found at gamefaqs.com (look in the dreamcast section for CvSNK 2, not the arcade) My purpose in bringing them up was to show there is indeed a marked difference between the personalities of SnH Ryu's "kill everything" attitude and Gouki's "I'm real strong" attitude. SnH Ryu is acting totally different. Also, the symbols on their backs are different and I think this further deviates their characters. Look how different their quotes and descriptions are. --------------------------------- "Gouki has great self control because he has learned how to deal with SnH over time and it seems to be what he has always wanted. As far as we know, Gouki has always had a burning desire to be better than his brother, his master, and everyone else as well, that’s why SnH comes so naturally to him." --------------------------------- There is too great a character difference between Ryu and Gouki to seriously suggest they have the same outlook. ------------------------------------------ "I disagree. Here’s a point by point rundown: - To say that Gouken hated True ansatsuken is an assumption. What is fact is that he taught Ryu and Ken a non lethal form of it." ------------------------------------------ Saiki said this in the beginning of the thread, that Gouken didn't like the killing aspect and changed it. In fact, you said it too. ------------------------------------------ " You could say that it was because Gouken hated it, but it seems more logical that it was because he didn’t feel that it was necessary to teach teenage children how to kill." ------------------------------------------ Gee, that's funny. Goutetsu had no qualms about teaching his two teenagers how to blow people away in one attack ------------------------------------------ " If Gouken had hated Ansatsu-ken so much, then he probably would have learned (and then taught) a different art instead. -Ryu doesn’t hate True Ansatsu-ken, he dislikes pointless killing." ------------------------------------------ He *did* teach them a different art. A tonded down version of the style that was weaker. The whole thing I think you're missing is that True Ansatsuken was *all about* killing moves in one hit. Intent had nothing or little to do with it. This is what comes from "All About Capcom" that we assume to be true. That Ryu does not and cannot use True Ansatsuken was because he does not like killing, regardless of bypassing SnH. ------------------------------------------ -Ryu studies an art that his directly derived from True Ansatsu-ken and has remained nearly intact. It’s not like he has taken up TKD and expects it to lead to the perfect Shoryu-ken. What he practices day in and day out is very close to the original. He still has all of the fundamentals down. ------------------------------------------ No, he does not. The fundamental was death, plain and simple. Do you remember there were four signature moves, each designed to kill in one hit, the Shoryuken, Tatsumakisenpukyaku, Hadoken, and Shungokusatsu? (no need to say "yes", I know you posted this on page 1) How Gouken didn't like this, *toned down* three of them and threw out entirely the Shungokusatsu because it was too drastic? It's close to the original in that the moves look alike, yes. It has lost the spirit of power that it once had. Gouken knew this. That's why he designed the art. You said this yourself on page 2 "I referred to Gouki as the prize pupil because he mastered the techniques that Goutetsu created. Gouken mastered them to a certain degree, but Gouki was the superior fighter. Gouken turned his back on the Killing Intent, which is what Goutetsu’s moves were created to do. They were the some of the strongest, most powerful and versatile techniques ever created, and would kill the user’s opponent if performed properly." What made you change your mind? ------------------------------------------ -Actually, there is no evidence to support the fact that Goutetsu was like Gouki. We know next to nothing of Goutetsu, but he never took on a demonic form and seemed to have stayed away from SnH. ------------------------------------------ As I said before, there is one "official" picture of Goutetsu that I know of and it is from a game that was cancelled by Z3 and Z2. You say there's no evidence Goutetsu and Gouki were alike when: Both used the complete killing art Both used all the moves Both appreciated the struggle of life vs death in battle (their death duel) Who ended up following Goutetsu's style. Compare Goutetsu and Gouken: Who rejected the original art and decided to stop using it Who threw out one of the cornerstone moves Who did not follow in his master's style Who chose to teach his students an art that was similar in appearance but different fundamentally. ------------------------------------------ "This is why I say that it is possible to practice True Ansatsu-ken without SnH. Goutetsu created the art, yet he never succumbed to the killing intent." ------------------------------------------ This is conjecture. List something concrete that says Goutetsu used TASK without killing. I bet you'll never find it, because that would be a self-contradiction. Is Capcom that forgetful? ------------------------------------------ "It is possible to practice/use a killing art without needlessly slaying an opponent." ------------------------------------------ This is a contradiction in terms. None of this was even disputed in the beginning of the thread. "Needlessly slaying"? It may be "needless" to you, but these people are living in another world. Plus, it's a videogame. Gouki and Goutetsu saw this as just the way they wanted to do things. If Ryu doesn't swing that way, fine for him. Just don't say "he can use the complete art without killing" that sort of goes against why Gouken taught him that version of the art in the first place. ------------------------------------------ "I don’t want to be picky, but the Mu symbol was on Gouken’s back, not Goutetsu’s. ------------------------------------------ You're right, that was Gouken. ------------------------------------------ "Goutetsu was supposedly pleased to see his student surpass him, but nobody ever said that he wanted to die. As a warrior, he was prepared to though, and didn’t seem to carry any ill will towards Gouki." ------------------------------------------ The idea is that this was a part of the art, living and dying in a battle or more accurately, one move. That's how the fight ended. ------------------------------------------ "If SnH makes Ryu more unstable/volatile, and he loses control, then he is worse of in the long run. Regardless of whether you or I think that it’s possible or not, the truth is that Ryu with True Ansatsu-ken is better than SnH Ryu with True Ansatsu-ken." ------------------------------------------ Need some concrete. The past is so hazy. ------------------------------------------ "However, I also admit that it isn’t very likely that Ryu will use True Ansatsu-ken unless he succumbs to SnH. Perhaps if he were in a life or death situation, but that is only speculation and not part of my argument." ------------------------------------------ If he used TASK, he would be killing the opponent with one move. Intent doesn't mean much, and we have no concrete evidence Goutetsu didn't end up like Gouki. He had no problems with "mindless" killing in his style. ------------------------------------------ "What we know for a *fact* is Goutetsu was different from Gouki, as I said before, there is no reason to assume that they were similar." ------------------------------------------ Where the hell are you getting this? Cap has released virtually no data on this guy except that he died by his student's hands. The things you and I have said about him are speculation. ------------------------------------------ Gouki fell under SnH while Goutetsu did not. ------------------------------------------ Objection, your honor! The defense is citing circumstantial evidence and at the same time begging the question! ------------------------------------------ "Gouken didn’t reject the art, he learned it. He choose to teach Ryu and Ken a non lethal form of it. It’s possible that he would have revealed the full form when they had become advanced enough, but we’ll never know because Gouki was on a power trip and wanted to kill his own brother." ------------------------------------------ It has already been established that Gouken didn't like the killing aspect and didn't use it or propagate it. His art didn't kill in one hit. It was non lethal. That makes it less powerful. There is no other way to describe it and still be accurate. "Power trip"? Hindsight is 20/20! ------------------------------------------ Also, nobody is denying that True Ansatsu-ken leads to the possibility of death, but one can accept this without SnH. ------------------------------------------ You said Ryu could us it without killing someone. That makes no sense. It's not the same art if it does not kill in one move. ------------------------------------------ "It’s not impossible, see Goutetsu and Gouken. Gouken taught Ryu a variation of Ansatsu-ken, based off of this, it isn’t impossible for Ryu to learn what it would take to kill an opponent, whether it was through SnH is debatable (and besides the point). ------------------------------------------ Goutetsu' past is unknown. Of course it's not impossible for him {Ryu} to hit someone in the throat or step on their neck. I am talking about the actual style. ------------------------------------------ "You’re right though, as long as Ryu refrains from using True Ansatsu-ken, his moves will be less deadly, even if they have more “raw?or brute power/force." ------------------------------------------ They DON'T have more brute force if they don't KILL you. That's the whole reason why the art was changed. This is simple, simple logic. I hit you in the face. You fall backward. You punch a hole in my torso, killing me. Now I am dead because you hit me harder, with more "spirit", muscle, force, whatever. Saying "well you died from this even though you hit me with more force!" is a nonsense statement. Posted by Donkus on 04:11:2002 07:34 PM: Hi, I'm a lurker on this BBS. I was very excited to hear that there are EX 2 endings. If Saiki or Praec Larum could provide some translations, that would be great. The one I'm looking for is Garuda's, but any would be fine. Thanks in advance Posted by PraecLarum on 04:11:2002 08:35 PM: ok Thank you very much Clay. I assumed it was an SF term...lol I will have a look, although I'm sure Saiki will have the answer quicker though ^_^ ~Nic Posted by Clay on 04:12:2002 07:16 PM: quote: Originally posted by Berias I'm missing "Get Smart" for this. You know, the old spy show? I’m familiar with it, though I’ve only seen a few episodes. If it makes you feel any better, I should be working on school work, but this is just more fun. quote: No, not in any games. Check 3s. Oro comes out and says it in a pre-fight intro. “So this is what you call killing/evil intent?” That’s what he says in the American version. In the Japanese version, he asks about Satsui no something or other. The quotes are nearly identical. It seems like Cap USA did a pretty good job on the translation. I checked with Saiki on that. quote: By that logic, Sagat, current Ryu (or Ryu from SF2), Vega, Alex, Gen, Dan, and Adon are all operating under SnH. This is why I mentioned that many fighters go through similar situations, maybe just not on the same scale. Sagat had the exact same battle within himself. Alex and Dan were out for revenge, much like Sagat while Gen is an assassin (killing's part of the job). Adon has many character flaws that will probably lead to his own demise. I’d like to see what he’s been up to lately. Ryu faces a battle within himself and has to choose which path to follow. This is not something that is exclusive to Ansatsu-ken practitioners. quote: Most of the powerful characters seclude themselves for training. As for SnH Ryu's island, I don't know that he had one, I know they stuck him in Gotenkou (or however you spell it) for Z3, only they made it blue instead of red. Yes, the appearance is similar, I'll give you that, but we have only one hazy picture of Goutetsu from a game Capcom now says is no longer cannon, I would not count him out. Most or all of the powerful characters in SF have glowing eyes or sharp teeth in at least more than one drawing (Gen, Sagat, Dhalsim, Urien, Mike Bison, etc) That was a different cavern, not Goukentou (sp?). I believe that it has its own name, but I cannot recall any currently. I’m not so sure that Z1 is completely useless. Z2 supercedes it, but there still is a decent bit of info in it that is not contradicted. I still consider that Goutetsu picture to be accurate. Many people’s eyes have flashed or glowed, but I think that Ryu and Gouki share so many qualities for a reason. There are too many similarities to ignore. quote: Gouki and SnH Ryu's attitudes are not similar. If you look at SnH Ryu's quotes, he **consistnently** talks about losing control, killing everything he sees without remorse, mindless destruction. Gouki has some killing in his quotes, but his are more along the lines of superority and training. Here's an example of quotes taken from CvsSNK 2, the japanese version, translated by a fan. Now I know this game is not cannon but it would be naive to say it does not reflect the character's actual attitudes. All these can be acessed at gamefaqs.com. I think that it’s funny that they still both speak of “mastering their fists” and that they both (in different games) refer to themselves as “The supreme master of the fist”. Also, that Metsu symbol that Ryu displays also appears above Shin Gouki in both Z2 and Z3. Ryu is focusing on death in his quotes because he is in the much earlier stages of SnH when compared to Gouki. Eventually he will (could) become accustomed to it. As I said, their symbols and quotes aren’t actually _that_ different. Capcom portrays SnH Ryu as beginning to follow the exact same path that Gouki chose. To say that Gouki wasn’t affected by SnH despite the similarities that he shares with SnH Ryu and the fact that Oro says it (not implies it, but states it outright) just seems wrong. I think that dismissing the Gouki-SnH Ryu comparison is a losing argument to begin with, because the similarities seem almost overwhelming. However, even if you were to remain adamant about that and ignore them, how can you deny Oro’s statement? Capcom basically put it right out in the open for all to see. Doesn’t that mean that, officially, Gouki chose the path of SnH? I’d like to put up some more quotes, but I’ll save it for another post. quote: My purpose in bringing them up was to show there is indeed a marked difference between the personalities of SnH Ryu's "kill everything" attitude and Gouki's "I'm real strong" attitude. SnH Ryu is acting totally different. Also, the symbols on their backs are different and I think this further deviates their characters. Look how different their quotes and descriptions are. That’s just it, there isn’t that great of a difference. If Ryu follows SnH, he will become almost exactly like Gouki. You can say that this is only conjecture (which I admit it is), but all evidence from the games leads me to believe that this is true. Since we haven’t ever seen SnH Ryu evolve, we might not ever get any actual answers, but Z3 SnH Ryu seems to be very much like Gouki. quote: Saiki said this in the beginning of the thread, that Gouken didn't like the killing aspect and changed it. In fact, you said it too. Yeah, I know, I’m just not sure _how_ much he hated it. I’ve never been told that he still didn’t use the original style himself, just that he didn’t want to teach it to his pupils. If there is more info out there, I want to know about it. Any help is appreciated. (Saiki?) quote: Gee, that's funny. Goutetsu had no qualms about teaching his two teenagers how to blow people away in one attack Perhaps Goutetsu was a better teacher. I have a theory about this that I came up with some time ago, but since it is only a theory it is not relevant to this discussion. I’ll post it up sometime if anybody’s interested. quote: He *did* teach them a different art. A tonded down version of the style that was weaker. The whole thing I think you're missing is that True Ansatsuken was *all about* killing moves in one hit. Intent had nothing or little to do with it. This is what comes from "All About Capcom" that we assume to be true. That Ryu does not and cannot use True Ansatsuken was because he does not like killing, regardless of bypassing SnH. Still, if he really _hated_ it that much, wouldn’t he want nothing to do with it then. I know there is a difference, but they are still closely related or at least similar. If you were to learn the non-lethal variant, then it is very possible that you could “discover” the original form. Also, I don’t like to say the Ryu cannot use it, because I’m not totally sure about that, but I do agree that he does not use it, and that it isn’t very likely that he would. quote: Do you remember there were four signature moves, each designed to kill in one hit, the Shoryuken, Tatsumakisenpukyaku, Hadoken, and Shungokusatsu? (no need to say "yes", I know you posted this on page 1) How Gouken didn't like this, *toned down* three of them and threw out entirely the Shungokusatsu because it was too drastic? It's close to the original in that the moves look alike, yes. It has lost the spirit of power that it once had. Gouken knew this. That's why he designed the art. Apparently, you think that the two styles are completely different (am I wrong?), while I think that they share a lot (more than a few) similarities. I could go on, but I don’t think that there is anything that we can say to change each others minds outside of Capcom says “so and so”. It no big deal and open to interpretation. quote: You said this yourself on page 2 You said this yourself on page 2 "I referred to Gouki as the prize pupil because he mastered the techniques that Goutetsu created. Gouken mastered them to a certain degree, but Gouki was the superior fighter. Gouken turned his back on the Killing Intent, which is what Goutetsu’s moves were created to do. They were the some of the strongest, most powerful and versatile techniques ever created, and would kill the user’s opponent if performed properly." What made you change your mind? I haven’t changed my mind. In the end, Gouki was the superior martial artist. I don’t understand your question. I haven’t contradicted that statement. quote: As I said before, there is one "official" picture of Goutetsu that I know of and it is from a game that was cancelled by Z3 and Z2. Gouki and Gouken both seemed to have learned different things from their master. In my last post I stated that one of the big differences between the two is that Gouki stresses mastery of the fist, while Gouken taught master of the mind/spirit. I’m not saying that Gouki is sloppy mentally, because he isn’t and is very dedicated, but he definitely placed precedence on the fist, which is the opposite of his brother. We could argue about who is more like who, but until more info on Goutetsu is discovered/released it would be a moot point. Personally, I think that each brother was equally like their master in very different ways, emphasizing different sides of fighting. quote: This is conjecture. List something concrete that says Goutetsu used TASK without killing. I bet you'll never find it, because that would be a self-contradiction. Right, but we don’t even know Goutetsu’s fighting record. We know that he must have been good to teach Gouki and Gouken, but what were his contemporaries like? Technically it would be possible to use TASK without killing. Poor execution, deflection of the attack, or use against an incredibly strong opponent; are possible explanations. Don’t take that last comment seriously, I’m just being an ass. quote: Is Capcom that forgetful? Yeah. You have to ask? J/K quote: This is a contradiction in terms. None of this was even disputed in the beginning of the thread. "Needlessly slaying"? It may be "needless" to you, but these people are living in another world. Plus, it's a videogame. Gouki and Goutetsu saw this as just the way they wanted to do things. If Ryu doesn't swing that way, fine for him. Just don't say "he can use the complete art without killing" that sort of goes against why Gouken taught him that version of the art in the first place. Just because you have the power to do so, doesn’t mean you always use it. Sometimes, victory achieved with minimal effort is the best option. It also depends on what you consider “victory” to be. I’m not saying that Ryu uses a True DP against Dan and Dan survives, just that even if he could use the true art, it’s not always the best option. We consider Gouki to practice True Ansatsu-ken, but he hasn’t killed everybody that he’s fought. quote: Need some concrete. The past is so hazy. Okay, think of Ryu (with TA-ken) as Gouken and SnH Ryu as Gouki (assuming that you agree that SnH affected Gouki at this point. If you still disagree with me even after all that I’ve said, then use your imagination. I don’t think that the comparison is too big of a stretch). Back when both Gouki and Gouken were disciples of Goutetsu, Gouken was the superior student, and thus, the better fighter as well. I’m pretty sure that this is official, especially considering that it was Saiki who mentioned it. He’s always been very accurate so I’ll take his word for it (Saiki, if you’re out there, feel free to clear this up). Now, considering that Gouken is the better fighter, I think you can see where I’m going with this comparison. Ryu without SnH is superior to SnH Ryu in the same way that Gouken was better than Gouki. I’ll wait for your response on this one. quote: If he used TASK, he would be killing the opponent with one move. Intent doesn't mean much, and we have no concrete evidence Goutetsu didn't end up like Gouki. He had no problems with "mindless" killing in his style. That is conjecture on your part. We don’t know any of Goutetsu’s philosophies at this point, or even his track record. Once again, I’d love to learn more about this. quote: Where the hell are you getting this? Cap has released virtually no data on this guy except that he died by his student's hands. The things you and I have said about him are speculation. Calm down there big guy, you kinda warped my sentence there, I never said fact. I do believe that there was a difference between the two. There isn’t too much evidence to support our arguments either way unless Saiki shows up (or an official statement from Capcom). quote: Objection, your honor! The defense is citing circumstantial evidence and at the same time begging the question! Capcom has put this in a game (3s). It’s heavily implied in nearly every other game (if not also stated). It seems likely that SnH applies to Gouki. Meanwhile, we have no proof that it applied to Goutetsu. The only picture we have of him displays no indications of SnH whatsoever. It’s not impossible, but the only bit of evidence that we have _suggests_ (doesn’t state necessarily) that he didn’t. What is more logical to believe? quote: It has already been established that Gouken didn't like the killing aspect and didn't use it or propagate it. His art didn't kill in one hit. It was non lethal. That makes it less powerful. There is no other way to describe it and still be accurate. "Power trip"? Hindsight is 20/20! Nonetheless, Gouken did complete his training, he was even better than Gouki (last I heard). I never said that Gouken’s A-ken was better than Goutetsu’s, so I don’t know why you keep bringing this up. Anyway, power trip? Yeah, Gouki wanted to prove superiority over his brother so badly that he killed him. Talk about a sibling rivalry. I hope my bro’s never go that crazy; I’ve never done anything wrong to them. quote: You said Ryu could us it without killing someone. That makes no sense. It's not the same art if it does not kill in one move. Misinterpretation. I meant that a person could practice/use it without killing everybody they came across, even Gouki does this. Here’s a good question: If Goutetsu taught both Gouki and Gouken True Ansatsu-ken, then how did they not kill each other before hand? Another one: Why is Ryu still considered to be using Ansatsu-ken by Capcom? Shouldn’t they have adjusted it? I’m just proposing these as food for thought. It’s very interesting and deserves discussion of its own. quote: Goutetsu' past is unknown. Of course it's not impossible for him {Ryu} to hit someone in the throat or step on their neck. I am talking about the actual style. As am I. So you don’t think that if a person was taught Gouken’s variation that there isn’t a decent possibility that they could stumble upon the true art? Goutetsu created his art, are you saying that he was the only one who would be able to? Nobody else is capable of doing so? That seems unlikely, especially for people who spend their whole lives fighting. What makes Goutetsu different from any other fighting “genius”? quote: They DON'T have more brute force if they don't KILL you. That's the whole reason why the art was changed. This is simple, simple logic. I hit you in the face. You fall backward. You punch a hole in my torso, killing me. Now I am dead because you hit me harder, with more "spirit", muscle, force, whatever. Saying "well you died from this even though you hit me with more force!" is a nonsense statement. Not necessarily. The best fighters are not always the strongest. I could punch harder than you (probably not true, I’m kinda weak ), but if you hit me in the right spot or with a superior method, then I’m more likely to get killed. So it’s feasible that a Shin Shoryu-ken packs more punch but is less effective. I’m not saying that that is the case, merely saying that it may be a possibility. I don’t like to limit myself on my options. That was good. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:12:2002 07:45 PM: Quick note: Akuma's cave in Street Fighter Alpha 3 is officially the Cave of Kiga, and is different from his battle stage in SFA2, which is Gokuento. Course, you -do- fight at Goukuento (or however it's spelled) in the world tour mode, though. Dunno what's up with that. ...I guess Cave of Kiga -might- be on Gokuento, but I'd be pretty surprised since I haven't seen much indication (since Akuma's cave in SFA2 isn't the cave of kiga). Could be wrong, though Posted by Berias on 04:12:2002 10:30 PM: quote: Originally posted by Clay Check 3s. Oro comes out and says it in a pre-fight intro. “So this is what you call killing/evil intent?” That’s what he says in the American version. In the Japanese version, he asks about Satsui no something or other. Totally my fault; I completely forgot. You are right about that one, but it wasn't central to my argument. quote: Originally posted by Clay This is not something that is exclusive to Ansatsu-ken practitioners. Yeah, this was also verified earlier in the thread. Cool about Gen though, huh? Where is that old dotard? quote: Originally posted by Clay ...but I think that Ryu and Gouki share so many qualities for a reason. There are too many similarities to ignore. I just checked that quote now, and I meant to write "SnH Ryu" not plain Ryu. So the argument is SnH Ryu and Gouki are not very similar. quote: Originally posted by Clay I think that it’s funny that they still both speak of “mastering their fists” and that they both (in different games) refer to themselves as “The supreme master of the fist”. SnH Ryu says, "I mastered my fist!" While Gouki's is "I am the supreme master of the fist." The fist is not solely a physical attribute as you suppose, but I think of it as sort of an expression of force and mastery of fighting (but not for fighting's sake). quote: Originally posted by Clay Also, that Metsu symbol that Ryu displays also appears above Shin Gouki in both Z2 and Z3. Ryu is focusing on death in his quotes because he is in the much earlier stages of SnH when compared to Gouki. Eventually he will (could) become accustomed to it. In Z2 and Z3 Shin Gouki has the symbol for destruction in his aura, not his person. That has always been "heavens" except for CVS2, which there his symbol on his back is supposed to mean "Man of God". That's quite a bit different from "Destruction". Still in regard to SnH, Ryu could approach a control state over it like you say Gouki has. But that would hurt your arguments that a SnH attitdue person is weaker. Suppose they could become stronger over the longest period of time. It would explain why SnH Ryu is completely nuts while Gouki can actually have a conversation with people that doesn't involve yelling. quote: Originally posted by Clay I think that dismissing the Gouki-SnH Ryu comparison is a losing argument to begin with, because the similarities seem almost overwhelming. In their current state, they are not as similar as you are saying. There's no way to know how this started off, so I'll leave it open. quote: Originally posted by Clay However, even if you were to remain adamant about that and ignore them, how can you deny Oro’s statement? Capcom basically put it right out in the open for all to see. Doesn’t that mean that, officially, Gouki chose the path of SnH? You're right about Oro's comment. But just as different fighters went through different kinds of SnH, it stands to reason that Gouki's is different from Ryu's. Now you can stop me with "but they both want to be the best." To this I can say so does half the SF cast, and also I'd point back to SnH Ryu's lunatic attitude compared to Gouki's megalomaniacalism (is that a word? ) I don't think Oro is the best judge of strength. He says Gill looks "almost as strong as that boy with the headband" but we know Gill is a lot stronger than Ryu. So either Gill is weaker than we think or Oro doesn't know what he's talking about. Or the translation is bad. Your thoughts? quote: Originally posted by Clay That’s just it, there isn’t that great of a difference. If Ryu follows SnH, he will become almost exactly like Gouki. ...Z3 SnH Ryu seems to be very much like Gouki. It is a possibility. I just think how it affects them in a different way due to their discriptions and quotes. Notice the stark difference between the endings of SnH Ryu and Gouki/Shin Gouki. In Z3, SnH Ryu is still a nutcase. Also, the zero saga is supposed to be about the time Gouki saved that kid's life. I don't think SnH Ryu would bother to help anyone. quote: Originally posted by Clay but I do agree that he does not use it, and that it isn’t very likely that he would. I was trying to get you to go for this. quote: Originally posted by Clay Apparently, you think that the two styles are completely different (am I wrong?), while I think that they share a lot (more than a few) similarities. I think the core of the true art was killing someone in one of the moves. Even an advanced normal Ryu's super Dragon punch can't even do that, so yes, I think they are diferrent. quote: Originally posted by Clay Gouki and Gouken both seemed to have learned different things from their master. In my last post I stated that one of the big differences between the two is that Gouki stresses mastery of the fist, while Gouken taught master of the mind/spirit. I don't think that's what the fist is about. quote: Originally posted by Clay Technically it would be possible to use TASK without killing. If a frog had wings, he wouldn't hit his tail on the ground. Too hypothetical. quote: Originally posted by Clay We consider Gouki to practice True Ansatsu-ken, but he hasn’t killed everybody that he’s fought. It's the general consensus that Gouki doesn't go all out in fights and kill people (which again is a much different approach than SnH Ryu). quote: Originally posted by Clay Back when both Gouki and Gouken were disciples of Goutetsu, Gouken was the superior student, and thus, the better fighter as well. I’m pretty sure that this is official, especially considering that it was Saiki who mentioned it. He’s always been very accurate so I’ll take his word for it (Saiki, if you’re out there, feel free to clear this up). Now, considering that Gouken is the better fighter, I think you can see where I’m going with this comparison. Ryu without SnH is superior to SnH Ryu in the same way that Gouken was better than Gouki. I’ll wait for your response on this one. this is a very good observation. As far as Gouki and Gouken, you have said yourself that stronger doesn't mean better, so maybe better means something else. I don't remember Saiki saying that, can you try to find it? (I'll scan this thread also). I have doubts because on page 1 you said the opposite, and I don't remember any contradictions. When Gouki challenged Gouken, who won and who died? Who ended up being the better fighter? Now I will concede that SnH Ryu may be weaker than non SnH Ryu, because SnH Ryu is such a reckless madhouse I don't see how he could possibly defeat a calm Ryu of equal power. This doesn't necessarily apply to all fighters, in this case Gouki, because I think SnH affected Gouki a bit differently and I think he handeled it a lot differently. quote: Originally posted by Clay That is conjecture on your part. We don’t know any of Goutetsu’s philosophies at this point, or even his track record. We know he didn't see eye to eye with Gouken on how to fight. quote: Originally posted by Clay Capcom has put this in a game (3s). It’s heavily implied in nearly every other game (if not also stated). It seems likely that SnH applies to Gouki. Meanwhile, we have no proof that it applied to Goutetsu. It seems to affect the majority of fighters, thought you're right. quote: Originally posted by Clay The only picture we have of him displays no indications of SnH whatsoever. I don't think that's good to go by. Capcom has probably retconned the story a bit since then. There's a picture (official) of Gouki selling or buying fruit in the street from a kid. He's not exactly oozing with SnH charm. So you probably shouldn't go by that crappy headshot of him. (As I recall, he *was* frowning) quote: Originally posted by Clay Nonetheless, Gouken did complete his training, he was even better than Gouki (last I heard). You said eariler in this post that Gouki was better in the end. Plus, when they fought, you know who won. It just solves more problems to believe Gouki was stronger (at least in the end). quote: Originally posted by Clay I never said that Gouken’s A-ken was better than Goutetsu’s, so I don’t know why you keep bringing this up. Anyway, power trip? Yeah, Gouki wanted to prove superiority over his brother so badly that he killed him. Talk about a sibling rivalry. I hope my bro’s never go that crazy; I’ve never done anything wrong to them. ??? I don't remember saying that about Gouken. I said his (the style he develpoed) was weaker. I doubt jealously or a power trip was at the core of Gouki vs Gouken, unless you want to call all epic events in the streetfighter series power trips. quote: Originally posted by Clay ...If Goutetsu taught both Gouki and Gouken True Ansatsu-ken, then how did they not kill each other before hand? They would be pretty crappy fighters if they didn't know about self-control during sparring matches. quote: Originally posted by Clay Another one: Why is Ryu still considered to be using Ansatsu-ken by Capcom? Shouldn’t they have adjusted it? It's still a form of AK, but it's not the genuine article. quote: Originally posted by Clay ...Goutetsu created his art, are you saying that he was the only one who would be able to? Nobody else is capable of doing so? That seems unlikely, especially for people who spend their whole lives fighting. What makes Goutetsu different from any other fighting “genius”? What do you think makes scientists who understand General and Special Relativity different from Einstien? There is no reason to suppose Ryu would not know something of the true form from his SnH spasms, but to say he would have stumbled on the whole of it himself is a bit much. Plus, it's established that the art was originally designed to kill, so if you aren't annihilating the opponent when they get hit, you aren't doing the complete version of the move. Ryu doesn't like the complete style. He won't use it. Wait for a retcon. quote: Originally posted by Clay Not necessarily. The best fighters are not always the strongest. I could punch harder than you (probably not true, I’m kinda weak ), but if you hit me in the right spot or with a superior method, then I’m more likely to get killed. So it’s feasible that a Shin Shoryu-ken packs more punch but is less effective. I’m not saying that that is the case, merely saying that it may be a possibility. I don’t like to limit myself on my options. That was good. -Clay That isn't what I meant. Two attacks hit the same place. If one does more damage, it is stronger. Now you have an attack so severe it kills the opponent. You have a little boy who possibly screws up while using the uppercut on a fighting master, and he is broken for awhile and scarred for life. Sagat can also make his scar glow. Sure helps in the dark! "Tiger Flashlight!" Why didn't Hugo at least pick up a scar? He can't go "Ok, attention all cells in my body! Become super dense so that I don't get a scratch from a move that is supposed to be the lord of all punches." Because of this, a shin shoryuken can't pack more of a punch and be less effective. We sure covered a lot of ground. Posted by Saiki on 04:12:2002 10:41 PM: I think I should clear some things up here. Gouki does use Satsui no Hado. It is unclear if Goutetsu used Satsui no Hado but I personally think he didn't. Another thing is that Gouken did make a competely different art from Goutetsu and Gouki's. Although the two look similar, the method used to draw ki is competely different. Although Capcom hasnt said how it's different though...... Posted by Siegfried on 04:13:2002 12:24 AM: Saiki, can you tell me exactly where in AAC it's stated about Ansatsu-ken for any of the fighters? Because it's not listed in the bios. Just give me a page and section and I'll scan it for the kanji - it's the same as in "ansatsu" (assassination) and "ken" (fist), right? About that discussion you're having, I don't see the point in referring to what anyone said back in August. We've all learned a LOT since then... Posted by Clay on 04:13:2002 07:40 AM: Tiamat: Thanks, I couldn’t remember the name before. Anyway, I’m not 100% sure, but I doubt that it’s located on Gokentou, considering that it should have been destroyed after Z2. Berias: quote: Yeah, this was also verified earlier in the thread. Cool about Gen though, huh? Where is that old dotard? I wish I knew. quote: I just checked that quote now, and I meant to write "SnH Ryu" not plain Ryu. So the argument is SnH Ryu and Gouki are not very similar. I assume that you and I have varying opinions about their similarities. Looking back at that quote, I think that I was talking about SnH Ryu as well. As for that new CvS2 symbol, I’m not exactly sure how to interpret it. Considering that there are multiple meanings behind the Ten symbol (heavens, beyond human, etc…) I wonder what Capcom is saying with this new one. I don’t put too much stock in it as it is, mainly because “Shin” Gouki in CvS2 doesn’t really exist in SF. quote: You're right about Oro's comment. But just as different fighters went through different kinds of SnH, it stands to reason that Gouki's is different from Ryu's. Now you can stop me with "but they both want to be the best." To this I can say so does half the SF cast, and also I'd point back to SnH Ryu's lunatic attitude compared to Gouki's megalomaniacalism (is that a word? ) Ryu is still considerably younger during the Zero saga, however, this is still too open ended. SnH Ryu seems to want to kill anybody in his path, but what about 20-30 years down the line. It’s impossible to say for sure. quote: I was trying to get you to go for this. This was in one of my last posts as well. Right now, I’m wondering what would happen to Ryu if he were placed in a life or death situation. In this situation, he would have to use moves that are more closely related to True Ansatsu-ken if he wanted to survive. The question is whether or not he would revert to SnH. quote: I think the core of the true art was killing someone in one of the moves. Even an advanced normal Ryu's super Dragon punch can't even do that, so yes, I think they are diferrent. Apparently you’re right on that one. Saiki said the difference lies in the way that they manage or draw their ki (thanks Saiki). I still would like to see Gouken’s style’s name changed from Ansatsu-ken, since we all know that it isn’t lethal. I think that the Shin Shoryu-ken has potential, but that potential might not ever be revealed. quote: If a frog had wings, he wouldn't hit his tail on the ground. Too hypothetical. I know; that’s why I’m an ass. quote: this is a very good observation. As far as Gouki and Gouken, you have said yourself that stronger doesn't mean better, so maybe better means something else. I don't remember Saiki saying that, can you try to find it? (I'll scan this thread also). I have doubts because on page 1 you said the opposite, and I don't remember any contradictions. When Gouki challenged Gouken, who won and who died? Who ended up being the better fighter? I’ll clear up what I was saying. Gouken was stronger back in their training days. After they parted ways, Gouken eventually settled down and created his own dojo. Presumably, after he took on some students, he didn’t have enough time to continue his own training. Meanwhile, Gouki continued to train like a madman. When the time came for their match, Gouki had apparently become stronger. I’m not sure which art Gouken used before he died. In the end, Gouki was the superior warrior, which goes back to my page 1 quote. I merely brought this up because I wanted to point out that under the same training with the same style, Gouken had at one time been stronger. quote: Now I will concede that SnH Ryu may be weaker than non SnH Ryu, because SnH Ryu is such a reckless madhouse I don't see how he could possibly defeat a calm Ryu of equal power. This doesn't necessarily apply to all fighters, in this case Gouki, because I think SnH affected Gouki a bit differently and I think he handeled it a lot differently. Ahh, now we’ve come full circle. In a nut shell, that was my quote that started this whole dialogue. I also mentioned that what’s right for Gouki isn’t necessarily right for Ryu and vice-versa. We’ve just gone on and rambled (I know I was rambling) so much that we’ve covered a lot of different topics as well. It’s been a blast. Like you said, it’s the Iceman vs. the Human Torch all over again. quote: So you probably shouldn't go by that crappy headshot of him. (As I recall, he *was* frowning) I’m not writing any essays on Goutetsu based on that picture, but it is all that we have. Isn’t the picture of Goutetsu (from the same game) still considered accurate? As for the frown, Ryu often frowns, most (if not all) of the time without SnH. quote: I doubt jealously or a power trip was at the core of Gouki vs Gouken, unless you want to call all epic events in the streetfighter series power trips. I'm just looking at this through the eyes of an outsider. I don't think that either of them ever even gave it a second thought. Regardless of relations, this one was going down to the bitter end. quote: They would be pretty crappy fighters if they didn't know about self-control during sparring matches. Good. With all of this “one hit kill” talk, I wasn’t sure if you thought that it was possible to use True Ansatsu-ken and not kill the opponent. I thought that you had objected to my previous suggestions. quote: There is no reason to suppose Ryu would not know something of the true form from his SnH spasms, but to say he would have stumbled on the whole of it himself is a bit much. This is what I’m waiting for. If Ryu were pushed hard enough, would he use moves that were similar to True Ansatsu-ken in order to survive? I have a bad feeling that Capcom will probably just skip by this and not give us an answer. quote: Now you have an attack so severe it kills the opponent. You have a little boy who possibly screws up while using the uppercut on a fighting master, and he is broken for awhile and scarred for life. Sagat can also make his scar glow. Sure helps in the dark! "Tiger Flashlight!" Why didn't Hugo at least pick up a scar? He can't go "Ok, attention all cells in my body! Become super dense so that I don't get a scratch from a move that is supposed to be the lord of all punches." Because of this, a shin shoryuken can't pack more of a punch and be less effective. We sure covered a lot of ground. Not disagreeing. Ryu wasn’t exactly a little boy at the time, he was 23, but that doesn’t change anything. Based on what Saiki said, the Shin Shoryu-ken is weaker because of the ki that is backing it. I’ve already explained why I think that the move has potential, so I won’t get into it again. -Clay Posted by Clay on 04:13:2002 07:51 AM: Hey Saiki, thanks for dropping by. Please let us know if you get any more info on the possible EX2 endings. Also, I find that bit of the info on the different methods of drawing ki to be very interesting. It makes sence, especially considering SnH's tendency to manifest itself as (or in one's) ki. I think that I've got a better perspective on the situation as a whole. Thanks again. -Clay Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:13:2002 08:06 PM: Random. I posted this on the gamefaqs boards, but figured it'd be interesting to port over here or something. Begin post "Street Fighter 4 might have to resolve Gill's doomsday prophecy. It's a rather insane cliffhanger since Gill rants about it so much and so often. Gill describes it to Yun as the balance in the world becoming upset, then two opposing forces colliding which would cause chaos and destruction throughout the world. Oh, and Gill considers himself the savior that will defend humanity from that or something. On a side note, Bison (who's officially dead, but Capcom could literally BS up 101 reasons to bring him back or just retroactively change the canon like they always do) tells Rose in SFA3 that she will "be the one victorious on the day of doom". But I'd be surprised if this tied into Gill's doomsday prophecy (I think it'd be cool if it did, though). It might just be Capcom of America butchering the translation, too-_- On another side note, Jedah believes that doomsday is coming for the Darkstalkers, and he has to kill Anita, whom he calls 'the savior of humanity', in order to rescue the Darkstalkers (That's why Jedah considers himself the savior. Savior of Darkstalkers), and Anita looks a hell a lot like Rose in one of Donovan's endings where it shows a grown up Anita, but I'd be surprised as heck if ALL of that were more than just mere coincidence :P" /end post Hmm.... anyone know if Bison telling Rose that she will be victorious on the day of doom is a mistranslation? Though I guess it's not a big deal either way (Bison isn't always right, either, after all and needless to say), especially since Rose is supposed to be dead (Maybe Cammy takes her place then, since she's sorta Rose's clone? ). Posted by Berias on 04:14:2002 06:14 AM: Clay: Seems we've cleared up everything or agree on all major points. quote: Originally posted by Clay Ryu is still considerably younger during the Zero saga, however, this is still too open ended. SnH Ryu seems to want to kill anybody in his path, but what about 20-30 years down the line. Yeah, it could go either way. quote: Originally posted by Clay ...I’m wondering what would happen to Ryu if he were placed in a life or death situation. In this situation, he would have to use moves that are more closely related to True Ansatsu-ken if he wanted to survive. The question is whether or not he would revert to SnH. I doubt it would ever come to that. Plus, maybe he doesn't care if he dies. quote: Originally posted by Clay I know; that’s why I’m an ass. BS. quote: Originally posted by Clay ...We’ve just gone on and rambled (I know I was rambling) so much that we’ve covered a lot of different topics as well. It’s been a blast. Like you said, it’s the Iceman vs. the Human Torch all over again. Err, on Iceman vs Human Torch, electricferret.com recently covered that fight. HT won. I say screw the x-men. quote: Originally posted by Clay As for the frown, Ryu often frowns, most (if not all) of the time without SnH. No comment quote: Originally posted by Clay This is what I’m waiting for. If Ryu were pushed hard enough, would he use moves that were similar to True Ansatsu-ken in order to survive? I have a bad feeling that Capcom will probably just skip by this and not give us an answer. He did a long time ago vs Sagat. Maybe he's changed too much since then, or maybe not. Well I hope this thread doesn't die now. Those EX2 endings would certainly give us something to muse over. Posted by sano on 04:15:2002 06:11 PM: Here's a question for ya. Anyone know why Urien stole that kid that Chunli was after in Third Strike? Was it for genetic experimentation, ransom or does she tie into the whole "Propecy" deal? Also, I assume that it's official that Chunli rescued the kid, but did she canonly defeat Urien (making the quote that he said to her about destroying Shadowloo official too?) or did she just sneak the kid out of Urien's grip? Was their more than one child Urien held ransom? Okay, that's more then one question - sano. Posted by MystikFusion on 04:18:2002 08:21 AM: EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekkk kkkkkkKKKKKKKKKKKKKK ..................................................................... hmmmmm..... following the Canon/Cannon or however you spell it, what is the real spelling of the word? I just wondering who you guys think are the strongest 5 chars in the SF Universe not counting their potential like in Ryu. Just their state in strength at the end of SFIII. MWUAHAHAHAHA CyberaKuma!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SHIN SHO-RYU- KEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! Shun Goku Sastu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! Posted by sano on 04:18:2002 05:08 PM: It's spelled canon. Webster's New International Dictionary gives a very long and detailed explantion of what the word means, but I'll just transcribe the part of canon's definition that sounds the closest to the way the word has been used on this thread. canon - In general, a law, rule or decree not ecclesiastical; esp; a law or principle accepted as true, axiomatic, fundamental, in conformity with good usage or practice or the like; an established princple; as the canons of art, of taste, good society; a canon of taxation. The five strongest characters? I'm no SF expert, but I'll give it a shot. The first three are easy. Going by Saiki's Top Tier list that comes straight from Capcom of Japan itself (either stuff they stated or hinted at) that would be Gouki (Akuma), Oro and Gill. These three are all on more or less the same level, but if a gun was pointed at my head and I had to put them in any kind of order, I'd say, 1. Gouki 2. Oro 3. Gill - even though some may argue that Oro is stronger than Gouki, I personally feel it goes like this. The next two are difficult. Saiki's second Top Tier list has Vega (the dictator, but he's dead now) Sagat, Ryu, Satsui no Ryu and Q. But again, if I were forced to put them in any kind of order, I'd list 4. Satsui no Ryu 5. Sagat - but it's difficult to say whether or not SNH Ryu is stronger than Sagat since officially he only existed long enough to scar Sagat. And until we see Sagat in a new game, all we know is that he is still training and most likely is stronger than Ryu, but we don't know by how much. Now if Satsui No Hado did exist the way he does in the games and could perform moves like the Shun Goku Satsu, I'd have him as being number four. Now, if we could forget about SNH Ryu since it is likely that Ryu will never give in to this power again and their is no SNH Ryu in SF3 (not even as a hidden character), than I would list - 4. Sagat 5. Ryu - that's my guess, but it's all just a guess. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:18:2002 06:03 PM: quote: Originally posted by sano Here's a question for ya. Anyone know why Urien stole that kid that Chunli was after in Third Strike? Was it for genetic experimentation, ransom or does she tie into the whole "Propecy" deal? Also, I assume that it's official that Chunli rescued the kid, but did she canonly defeat Urien (making the quote that he said to her about destroying Shadowloo official too?) or did she just sneak the kid out of Urien's grip? Was their more than one child Urien held ransom? Okay, that's more then one question - sano. I don't know why Urien kidnapped the kid. I suspect genetic experimentation, myself, since Urien was the man behind the genetic experimentation on the kidnapped Necro. And yea, I do believe it's canon that Chun-Li fought him. The thing is, though, in his dialogue to Chun-Li, Urien says specifically "Entertain me and I'll let the kid go." Thus Chun-Li didn't necessarily BEAT him (which would be difficult, considering how powerful Urien is). She just put up a good fight. It's like how Alex won the SF3 tournament, and how Yun and Yang 'beat' Gill in Yun's Third Strike ending. Gill (and Urien, too, apparently) are both so powerful that they generally don't fight to win (unless they're fighting each other ). In Yun's SF3 Third Strike ending (which is one of the few times Gill was actually fought in Third Strike, since there's actual dialogue before and after the battle with him), after you 'beat' Gill, Gill applauds Yun for his 'performance', revealing that Gill wasn't even really trying in the fight and was just testing Yun. So... erm, yea, Chun-Li most likely did fight Urien to save the kid. And as Urien stated, she mostly just put up a good enough fight to impress him enough to release the kid, not actually beat him. By the way, on a random tangent, the plotguide in my signature was updated with this info I'm stating here a while back I'm still constantly updating the thing. Keep on finding/realizing new things for it every day... Posted by sano on 04:18:2002 09:48 PM: You did post it before! Cool! The only times I ask questions is when I don't remember reading the answers on this thread or your plot guide or if they haven't been addressed. It must be a pain to keep updating that guide, but we all appreciate it. Muchas Gracias! Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:18:2002 09:59 PM: quote: Originally posted by sano You did post it before! Cool! The only times I ask questions is when I don't remember reading the answers on this thread or your plot guide or if they haven't been addressed. It must be a pain to keep updating that guide, but we all appreciate it. Muchas Gracias! Yea... I got it while I was rummaging back through the Third Strike dialogue guide and just... stealth updated the plotguide with it Been doing that a lot, lately. It's kinda amazing how many small intricacies you can actually gleem for the storyline from the dialogue in the games if you look hard enough, even with Capcom of USA's not-so-good translation (Cammy slowly losing the robo speak throughout her tenure through SFA3 is a pretty good example, I think. Though fortunately, Capcom generally translated SF3 right, right down to murderous intent instead of evil intent). Posted by Berias on 04:18:2002 11:20 PM: Just to clear something up, I'm pretty sure Gill is responsible for Necro while Twelve is a creation of Urien's. Necro has no dialogue vs Urien in 3s but does against Gill. Although it is a little screwey that Necro is Urien's 9th stage boss. If you beat the game with Twelve they mention that Urien is responsible for the creation of his kind. I wonder if Chunli vs Urien actually happened, or if that was just put in so she would have some story. I'd go with Tiamat and say if they did a fight and Urien was serious Chunli would not win. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:19:2002 06:47 PM: Yea, you're probably right. Gill talks to Necro a lot as if Necro were Gill's doing. I probably based too much off of the fact that Urien has an army of Necros in his ending when those are really probably meant to be an army of Twelve's (it's just that Twelve wasn't invented by Capcom back then as a character so they used Necro instead:P Kinda like how Capcom uses Juli and Juni to represent all the Dolls in SFA3 I imagine) In the end, I'd be kind of surprised if Chun-Li's battle with Urien didn't happen, because then it'd be like "How else would she SAVE THE CHILDREN!?" (don't mind caps lock. I just like capitalizing anything that has to do with THINKING OF THE CHILDREN! ...eh, I watch too much Simpsons ) Posted by Berias on 04:21:2002 12:38 AM: What about EX3? Does anyone know the story for that game? Posted by PraecLarum on 04:21:2002 01:07 PM: Actually EX3 was one of the games that just came out or were being made after 'All About Capcom' was published. I'm sure there is in-game story...(maybe not the in USA release as history prooves) but I don't have the game ;(... Anyone? ~Nic Posted by Siegfried on 04:21:2002 11:19 PM: Tiamat: I've updated Fighter Mania tonight with your FAQ and... well... not much else really. Posted by pirate360 on 04:22:2002 09:12 PM: Wow This thread has gone a while without a reply! I can't think of anything to ask, but I am sure that someone else can. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:23:2002 01:16 AM: Well, guess I can post random questions. I'll start with this one, I suppose. Anyone know how Gen lost the SF1 tournament since he's supposed to be so powerful? Gen's dialogue with Ryu in SFA3 when you play as Gen Gen: I didn't think anyone could withstand my honed skills... Gen: I see the world is yet an interesting place to live in! Ryu: Your fighting style... It's used for killing people, isn't it? Gen: And what if it is? Ryu: You are strong! I can sense your power just by looking at you... [after the battle] Gen: I don't understand...Your style is pure... It is not like mine. Gen: But why do I feel so empty when I look within...? Gen: Perhaps it is because I use the "assassin's fist..." Gen: Or... is it because of the power he has flowing through him...? I'm still trying to figure out if Gen's initial comment about someone withstanding his honed skills was about Akuma or about Ryu beating Gen in SF1 (if Ryu beat Gen in SF1) or not. Capcom of USA's butchered translation doesn't help, here, that's for sure. Posted by Saiki on 04:23:2002 05:12 AM: I was just checking out one guys fan art site and found this piece of artwork. http://www.geocities.co.jp/AnimeCom...ushi/top_66.gif From what I can tell, it's Gouken's daughter. So if anyone wants to know what Gouken's daughter looked like, here she is. P.S. It's the same guy who drew all the pics for the 12 dolls. Posted by TiamatRoar on 04:23:2002 05:22 AM: Ataru! *had found that page and saved all of those Doll pics a while back* I wish the pics were labelled. A lot of them look intriguing and he seems to do arts of extremely vague characters, but sadly, if the pics aren't labelled, it's kind of hard to figure out who many of those characters are (Took me the longest time to figure out where Jianyu was there a few weeks ago) Erm.... yea, anywayz... Wow, so that's Gouken's daughter? That's really interesting. It's too bad Capcom forgot about her. Course, by SF3, she'd be quite a bit older than she was back then. ...then again, maybe same age as Ryu, tops, so it wouldn't be -that- old, I suppose. She does look pretty cool when I think about it. Course, Ataru's a good artist, I think Posted by Grenade Falcon on 04:23:2002 07:18 AM: Mmmmm, mmm, so that's Gouken's daughter? Amazing. Was Ataru a former Capcom artist, or did he just have access to the only two pieces of artwork known about her and combine them to draw this one? In any case, she looks like a potentially good Street Fighter in that pic. If Gouken taught her some Ansatsuken techniques, maybe trained her along with Ryu and Ken for that matter, I imagine she would at least be equal to Sakura by now, if not more skilled or powerful. Of course, that really depends on whether or not she has developed a passion for fighting like Ryu, or if she wants to become stronger, or something like that. There can be no doubt of her being disciplined anyway. Since there is knowledge of her existence floating around, I think Capcom's bound to realize their forgetting about her and decide to pick up on the character's whereabouts. They've cleared a few misconcpetions when they found out they accidentally gave Guy a second Bushin master in SFA2, so there's a reasonable chance. Perhaps they might possibly consider her as a great addition to the SF roster. Then it would just be a question of what name to give her, what changes they'd make to her appearance, what differences she'd have to the existing Ansatsuken users, goals, etc. Here's hoping they do this for SF4. Posted by Golden Hell on 04:23:2002 12:47 PM: Thats cool. Gouken's baby girl. She kind of resembles Maki. I wonder if there is any possibility that this character design might have influenced Maki. Eh, probably not. Either way, I think she'd make a cool addition if there'll ever be a Street Fighter 4. She'd most likely have the Ansatsuken staples like a fireball, hurricane kick, dragon punch but they'd probably add a few more tricks to make her stand out. Are you listening, Capcom?! We want a Street Fighter 4 and we want her in it!! Posted by sano on 04:23:2002 05:23 PM: Tiamatroar - On Ryu defeating Gen in SF1 - My guess is that since Gen doesn't fight to win but to kill, he probably saw potential in Ryu and threw the match. Gen studies Ansatsuken (Different from Gouki's, but still Ansatsuken). Every move is meant to kill, not just win a fight. He probably went easy on Ryu, like he did on Chun-li in her SFA2 mid boss battle. I don't see Ryu knocking out Gen, though. Gen probably just walked away, and by any tournament's rules that's a forfeit. Just a guess. WOW!!!! FINALLY A PICTURE OF GOUKEN'S DAUGHTER!!!! (sano feints.) Oooh, look at the purty colors... It would be cool if she shows up in SF4 having given in to the Satsui No Hado after witnessing her father die. Then I'd have Ryu fight her in a quest for her soul! On her name, it would be cool if it ended with the letters sho. Why? notice - SHORYUKEN __, Ryu & Ken. well, that's my 2 cents. More on the Gill/Urien/Necro/Twelve deal. It seems that the Necro and Twelve projects have their own respective scientists behind it. Dr. Seno is the little bald scientist from the animated movie that has been integrated into the games. He can be seen in Vega's SFA2 ending when Ryu gets brainwashed, and in Nash's unofficial X-men vs. SF ending. He can also be seen in Necro's background stage in the first 2 SF3 games. I'm guessing after Shadowloo was destroyed, Seno joined the Illuminati and worked on the Necro project. There's another scientist who is behind the Twelve project that can be seen in Twelve's ending. I forget his name, but he looks kind of like Norimaru with a mustache. All times are GMT. The time now is 12:51 AM. Show all 1084 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.